Kit Malthouse
MP for North West Hampshire · Conservative · United Kingdom
“We have heard time and time again that the situation that thousands of our constituents live with every single day is so horrific and appalling that even the best palliative care cannot alleviate their pain. I urge colleagues to consider what their vote may mean today.”
“I will not. Some of those Members had just a few months before been specifically rejected by the electorate and replaced in this House by others, and I am afraid that they cannot be trusted not to do the same thing again. I grant my right hon.”
“The Health and Social Care Committee of the House of Lords found that in territories that have assisted dying, palliative care generally improves, because people become less afraid of talking about death.”
“One of the most affecting people I have met over the last 11 years of campaigning on this issue is Warwick Jackson, who came to our party conference a couple of years ago. Warwick’s wife, Ann, was diagnosed with terminal peritoneal cancer. She basically knew that she was going to die a slow, suffocating death at the end.”
“I respect my right hon. and learned Friend’s expertise in this matter, but, as he has already heard on the Floor of the House, it is perfectly possible for this House to suggest amendments, negotiate them with the promoters of the Bill, place them against the legislation in the House of Lords and then have them come back to this House for…”
“As co-sponsor of the Bill once again, I am acutely conscious that there is more at stake today than merely the fate of those who are facing their end, because the conduct of the other place means that our democracy is also on trial today.”
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“I understand my right hon. Friend’s sentiments. As he will know, particularly with regard to the threat level, a written ministerial statement was issued yesterday. We understand the need to keep the House informed and to provide reassurance, but the issue with statements to the House is that they have to be timed at such a stage where we believe that the balance is right between the information that we can give and the likelihood of further speculation about a case emanating from a statement, and that is sometimes difficult. But I take his point about the implications and will certainly think more carefully about the timing in future.”
“Once the investigations are complete, and we have the full picture of the individual’s activities online and offline and of his lifestyle and possible associates—we do not know yet—we will be able to learn some of the lessons for the future. And I join the hon. Gentleman in knowing that Liverpool will bind itself together, as the city has done so many times and will again.”
“I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his questions. As he knows, significant resources are available to our counter-terrorism policing colleagues and there have been significant extra resources over the past couple of years for Merseyside police, which I know and believe they will put into action in this case. The hon. Gentleman asked a number of questions that invited me to speculate on some of the lessons that we may learn from this incident with regard to, for example, materials or, indeed, the motivation of the alleged attacker. At the moment, the police have said that none of that is yet clear.”
“As hon. Members will know, the phenomenon of terrorism in the modern world is fast-moving and dynamic, so we must be, too. I reassure my right hon. Friend and the House that constant attention is paid to our ability to prevent these kinds of attacks, where we possibly can. He will know that, since 2017, counter-terrorism policing in its wider sense has prevented, I think, 31 attacks. We constantly learn lessons from incidents not just here in the UK, but around the world, so that we try to stay one step ahead in our preventive efforts. I can reassure him that constant attention is paid to refining what we do and getting better and better at it.”
“While I understand the hon. Gentleman’s sentiments—I, too, offer my good wishes to the driver of the car for a full recovery—he is inviting me to speculate on the possible motivation of the individual by indicating that there may have been some radicalism. As I said earlier, we are not yet clear about the motivation of that individual. Obviously the hon. Gentleman will understand that investigations, not least digital forensic investigations, are under way. As for the materials used in the incident, there is ongoing, extensive forensic examination of premises that have been occupied and of the vehicle on site. Until we know exactly what the circumstances are, it is hard to draw any conclusions, as the hon. Gentleman asks me to, but when we do, I am sure that we will be able to find a way to let the House know.”
“I understand that my right hon. Friend is not necessarily associating this particular case with the strand of work that he is looking at, but he is quite right that there have been a number of reports over the past few years that have looked into the very difficult job of combating radicalism, not least in an internet age. I know that he is impatient for change. My right hon. Friends the Home Secretary and the Minister for Security and Borders are applying themselves with some enthusiasm to that area of business, because although we can do a lot on prevention from an organisational and a policing point of view, in the end it is critical that we get to the root cause: the radicalisation, often self-radicalisation, of individuals, which often happens online.”
“I am sure that the House will have heard loud and clear both your implication, Mr Speaker, and that of the Chair of the Committee about our coming to the House in a timely fashion. I understand that, notwithstanding yesterday’s written statement, an oral statement was preferable in your view. As for the raising of the threat level, the right hon. Lady will know that a number of data points are pulled in for that independent assessment, but this decision was made in the light of the two recent incidents—the death, sadly, the awful killing, of Sir David Amess, and this incident—combined in the round with other information gathered by JTAC. The online world of radicalisation is of course one of the areas that JTAC examines, but I think that it takes into account a more rounded picture of the overall threat.”
“I understand my right hon. Friend’s desire for more information, but he will know that we do not, as a rule, discuss the reasoning behind our security levels, just as we do not discuss specific security arrangements or, indeed, specific security tactics or capabilities. While there are mechanisms in the House to oversee what we do, not least the Intelligence and Security Committee, I hope my right hon. Friend understands that it might not be helpful to our general security for me to discuss these matters in public.”
“As I said earlier, we believe that Merseyside Police and the regional counter-terrorism police have adequate resources. Obviously, national resources have also been devoted to this investigation. At present I am not aware that we have received any request for further assistance, but I am sure that if there is such a request, we will be able to look at it.”
“As my hon. Friend says, there has been a great deal of speculation in the media and elsewhere, and he will forgive me if I refrain from speculating on the background and therefore the possible motivations of the individual concerned. However, on a separate issue, he is right to suggest that all nations need compassionate, fair and swift border controls that deliver on their duty to those fleeing persecution around the world, while at the same time ensuring that there is an orderly way in which to enter the country.”
“Given that, in strict terms, this is obviously not my portfolio—I am here today because the Security Minister is in Liverpool himself—I am not sure that my views would necessarily be the most helpful thing to give today. It is the case, however, that in respect of both crime generally and possible radicalisation online, we are working through the implications of the lockdowns and the impact of covid on particular individuals who may be susceptible as a result of having spent time in confinement and been exposed to material to which they would not otherwise have been exposed. Those lessons are being learnt as we speak, and I am sure that in time my right hon. Friends the Home Secretary and the Minister for Security and Borders will come forward with their proposals.”
“I know that the hon. Lady has done a vast amount of work in this area, and we congratulate her and thank her for it. She is right: while we entrust a huge amount of our safety to our police forces—and, in particular, to our counter-terrorism police and those who promote the Prevent programme and other radicalisation prevention strategies—we all have a role to play in our collective safety, including the executives and others of social media companies, who need to think about the role that they play in shaping young minds for the future. That is not, as I have said, to speculate on the motivation in this case. I speak in general terms, as a father with children, and I know that there are young minds out there to be shaped. Those companies are part of the shaping, and they need to step up to that responsibility.”
“I understand the hon. Gentleman’s frustration, and I apologise to the House for not being able to say more about this case at the moment, but I must reiterate that we are not yet clear—and the police have stated in terms that they are not yet clear—about the motivation for the attack. The time will come for us to draw lessons from it, and indeed from other attacks, and apply them to the further work we can do to protect ourselves, both in dealing with those who may be radicalised and, more practically, in dealing with the groups who may be organising the attacks. However, this is a difficult and complex area of work. I hope the House will give the police the space that they need to complete the investigation and learn those lessons, from this incident and, as I have said, from the previous incident.”
“Similarly, work will be ongoing as we see this phenomenon increase, and I can reassure him that significant attention and resources will be being paid to it.”
“As my hon. Friend rightly points out, this is one of the most difficult areas of investigation. While I cannot speculate on whether or not there will be such a pivot, I hope my hon. Friend knows that—as I said earlier—we are constantly paying attention to where we believe the threat is coming from, and refining our ability both to identify it and to prevent it from emerging in the first place.There have been a number of different styles and natures of attack over the years. For example, he will remember what became known as the “Mumbai-style” attack, which took place some time ago and had implications for our resilience. We did extensive work to protect ourselves from that style of attack.”
“I agree with the hon. Gentleman; I know the city well and it has always been welcoming, certainly in the latter decades, when community harmony has been very good and high. I hope that this will not have an impact on that. The Security Minister is there today to talk to the authorities and the police about what more we can do to help and to understand more about the circumstances, but I know that the two mayors, the police and crime commissioner and all those engaged in the welfare of Liverpool will be doing their best to reassure the community and bind it together after such a devastating event.”
“As the right hon. Gentleman points out, I cannot comment on this. I know that there has been a lot of speculation about the nature of the explosion, but, as I understand it from a briefing just this morning, the forensic examination is yet to be completed. Once it is, we will be able to draw some lessons about the particular combustion and the explosive chemicals that may or may not have been used, and then we can take action accordingly.”
“I join the hon. Lady in congratulating Merseyside police, which is one of our highest-performing police forces across the country, having had a series of great leaders as chief constables, not least the current one. Andy Cooke, who led it before, was also an outstanding leader of that force, which has achieved amazing results. The fact it was able to deal with this incident so swiftly, at the same time as dealing with a major public event not very far away, is a great testament to its skill. On the community work, the hon. Lady will be reassured to know that colleagues in the community arm of the Department for Levelling Up, Housing and Communities are engaging with the local authorities in Liverpool to make sure that we do what we can to reassure the local community and keep it as united as it has hitherto been.”
“As I say, Mr Speaker, the lack of a statement came from a desire to come to the House at the moment when we could give the maximum information and reassurance, but we hear the message loud and clear. Obviously, following this incident there will be a review of security arrangements at a variety of premises. The hon. Gentleman will understand that I do not want to discuss exactly what those may be, but the raising of the threat level brings with it an implication and an obligation on a number of organisations to review their security arrangements. The British public will see a greater police presence, particularly in areas of public use, to make sure that there is both reassurance and prevention in place.”
“I am grateful to the right hon. Lady for that and I thank her for her work on that important Committee. I understand the House’s frustration that the discussion of specific security arrangements on the Floor of the House is not necessarily helpful to our overall security. We do have a tried and tested route to look at these things, through the Committee of which she is a member. I am more than happy to go away and discuss with my colleagues what the status is of the various recommendations coming out of that Committee, and, if required, we can put some boosters on to implementing them.”
“I join the hon. Lady in celebrating the Women’s Hospital in Liverpool, which has been used by members of my family on a number of occasions. I was born at Broadgreen, not at the Women’s Hospital, but there are some fantastic facilities in that city. Obviously, I understand that the hon. Lady is not intending to speculate on the motivation of the individuals, but she is right to say that there have been a number of incidents internationally and closer to home where ideologies such as incel or people driven by misogyny and therefore targeting women have been a cause of concern, both publicly and privately. I know that there is an examination of this phenomenon ongoing within the Home Office.”
“I understand the hon. Gentleman’s sentiments. It is obviously not for me to discuss what the security arrangements should or should not be—as I have said before, it is not helpful to speculate—but I am sure that whatever resource will help those organisations to become safe will be available either from within their own budgets or from elsewhere.”
“I am afraid that the hon. Lady is once again inviting me to speculate on the background, nature and motivation of the individual. I hope she will forgive me if I refrain from doing so. I am happy to take that question in other circumstances and, if she wants to table it as a written question, I will make sure that there is a swift reply on the numbers. On the hon. Lady’s sentiment, I am reassured about the possible community implications because I know that Liverpool is not a city filled with hate. It is a city where people put their arms around each other and stand together in adversity, as sadly they have had to do too often. I know that they will this time, too.”
“It is typical of the hon. Gentleman that he would focus on the welfare of that individual. I will personally ensure that he is getting all the support that he needs to recover properly.”
“We will have to examine the wider community impacts of the incident once the lessons are learned. As the hon. Lady knows, significant work is being done through our work on the military covenant around welfare and wellbeing for veterans. I hope and believe that the resources available as part of that may be employed in this effort.”
“I am more than happy to work with the hon. Gentleman on the issues that he raises. He is quite right that forensics are a critical part of a good and functioning criminal justice system. He will know that in the Home Office part of my job, significant work is going into the transforming forensics programme, which has received investment of more than £25 million in each of the past two years, bolstering and reinforcing the Forensic Capability Network. He will also know that the Mackey review, which was completed in April, has been looking at where forensics goes next, and that there is a jointly chaired forensics sub-group of the Criminal Justice Board that looks at the issue across both Departments.”
“Friend is absolutely right that all police forces, through the Forensic Capability Network, need to keep all so-called cold cases under review as science leads us towards greater and greater answers.”
“My hon. Friend makes a really important point. She is quite right that as forensic science develops—and it is developing very rapidly indeed—we are able to revisit some quite elderly cases in which evidence is still available and reveal the true perpetrators of some awful crimes. What we saw last week was a brilliant result by Kent police. A matter that I have to confess that I was involved with, where exactly what my hon. Friend describes took place, was the catching of the killers of Stephen Lawrence nearly 20 years after the killing: it was driven specifically by developments in the ability to assess microdots of blood in a way we had not been able to do before. My hon.”
“I am happy to report excellent progress on our electronic monitoring programme. We recently expanded our world-first acquisitive crime project, GPS tagging all those released from prison who were convicted of those crimes, to cover half of England and Wales. Between April and September, more than 1,500 offenders had to wear a sobriety tag.”
“As we expand the programme further, from six to 19 police forces across the country, we need to monitor the impact on policing, albeit that, thus far, the police are enthusiastic proponents of the scheme.”
“It is typical of my hon. Friend to think about the burden on policing. He is one of the primary supporters of the police in this House; I am grateful to him for that. We hope that the GPS tagging programmes—specifically, as he says, for prolific acquisitive criminals—will actually reduce the burden on policing. As he knows, something approaching 50% of offenders who have been burglars or robbers go on to reoffend. By putting a tag on their ankle so that we know where they are 24 hours a day, we essentially put a probation officer or police officer alongside them. We hope that that will be a huge deterrent. It also means that if there is a breach or somebody is identified as being at the same place that a crime has occurred at the same time, it is much easier for the police to find them because we can track them down through the tag.”
“That is a brilliant question, not least because my hon. Friend has put his finger on the button of where we need to go next. As part of the £183 million that the Treasury has now invested—with some confidence, I like to think—in the future roll-out of our electronic monitoring programme, we have £19 million to invest in future technology. In particular, I am keen to stimulate the market to find the holy grail of tagging, which would be a drugs tag that we could fit to the ankle of offenders with that kind of problem, and therefore deter them from taking drugs in the first place.”
“We are investing an extra £93 million over the next three years to recruit 500 additional community payback staff, so that we can increase hours worked to a record-breaking 8 million a year.”
“That will enable us to square the circle, with a sense of repaying a debt to society but also an ongoing commitment to it.”
“I can assure my hon. Friend that we are investing significant extra resources, time and effort into making sure that community payback is both seen and effective. He is quite right that we want the public to see that justice is done, and we want offenders to know that their punishment is meaningful. There is a third reason why community payback is important, however, which is that offenders need to learn what the rest of us know—that we all have to play our part in building a great community and a safe neighbourhood. By this method we can almost teach them the value of contribution to their local neighbourhood. We want to make sure that community payback is visible, and that means that there will be more people out there on the street cleaning up, improving the environment and so on.”
“We share my hon. Friend’s abhorrence at this appalling new phenomenon. To reassure him, the Home Secretary and I are in close touch with the National Police Chiefs’ Council, which is co-ordinating local and national investigation assets across the country to try to prevent the crime and help protect young women.”
“I understand the hon. Member’s distress at that case. As he knows, we are busy about the job of increasing police capacity. We are over halfway to the 20,000 extra police officers—we have 11,053—and a significant number of those are heading towards the west midlands.”
“None of those additional corrections represents any significant flaw, but it is worth making them now to ensure that the 2021 regulations are completely accurate. I commend the draft regulations to the Committee.”
“The Home Office has issued advice on the Government website to make owners aware of the omission and of the need to apply for a firearms certificate before 22 January next year. The National Police Chiefs’ Council lead for firearms licensing has suggested to police forces that they simply hold on to any applications they receive and cancel them once the draft regulations come into effect. That will avoid owners having to pay unnecessary fees and avoid nugatory work for police forces. I apologise to Members and to the House for the omission. The 2021 regulations have been checked by officials and external stakeholders for further omissions and errors. As a result, the draft regulations will also make a number of minor and typographical corrections to descriptions of other cartridges specified in the 2021 regulations.”
“Although the owners of those firearms will not require a firearms certificate once the omission has been corrected, the way in which the transitional provisions were drafted in the commencement regulations means that owners should still lodge an application for a certificate with their local police force before the end of the extended transition period, otherwise they could technically commit an historical offence of unlawful possession. That is because owners who choose to retain their firearms may only benefit from the transitional provisions, including the temporary disapplication of unlawful possession offences, if they have applied for a certificate before the end of the transition period.”
“The draft Antique Firearms (Amendment) Regulations 2021 will add that category of cartridges to the list in the schedule to the Antique Firearms Regulations 2021, as was always intended. In the meantime, I have made the Policing and Crime Act 2017 (Commencement No. 11 and Transitional Provisions) Regulations 2021, which extend the transition period in respect of the omitted firearms until 22 January 2022, to ensure that owners remain in lawful possession while the draft amendment regulations before us are considered by Parliament and, I hope, approved and brought into effect.”
“The cartridges are for vintage rifles, punt-guns and shotguns with bores greater than a 10 gauge. Members may recall that the regulations are unusually technical and lengthy. They list more than 450 old cartridge types and went through checks before being laid. Regrettably, however, the omission was not picked up. Unless we correct the error, owners of the omitted firearms would have to obtain a licence for them, incurring unnecessary inconvenience and expense, with no benefit to public safety. Since antique firearms are not licensed, it is not known exactly how many firearms might be affected by the omission, but I understand that potentially 200 or 300 might be owned by perhaps 100 collectors. They are also the sort of old firearms that might be displayed on the walls of pubs or hotels, as I am sure many Members can attest.”
“In light of concerns expressed by law enforcement, the new definition does not include seven types of cartridge that, together with their associated firearms, have featured most often in crimes involving antique firearms. Those particular firearms are therefore no longer regarded as antique. However, owners were able to retain them on a firearms certificate. A six-month transition period was included in the relevant commencement regulations to allow owners to licence, sell or otherwise lawfully dispose of their firearms. That transition period ended on 22 September. During the transition period, however, it was brought to our attention that a category of cartridge that had previously been included in the Home Office guidance on antique firearms had been inadvertently omitted from the regulations.”
“I beg to move, That the Committee has considered the draft Antique Firearms (Amendment) Regulations 2021. The draft regulations were laid before the House on 14 September. Members will recall that the House debated the Antique Firearms Regulations 2021 on 14 December 2020. The regulations introduced the statutory definition of “antique firearm” to prevent criminals exploiting a lack of legal clarity to gain possession of old but functioning firearms for use in crime. The regulations came into effect on 22 March this year and were based closely on long-standing Home Office guidance. The regulations now define in law which firearms may safely be regarded as antique, and therefore exempt from control, and those that should be subject to licensing.”
“I will be more than happy to report back to the House in the future on the bedding in of the regulations and how they are working. With that, I am grateful to you, Mr Gray, for your charming presiding over our affairs, and I hope that the Committee will agree to the motion. Question put and agreed to.”
“On the extremely important point about updates on implementation, an annual review will take into account all the intelligence that we have, and there will also be a full review of the guidelines every three years. That is not to say that we will not necessarily learn lessons in between. Following the terrible tragedy in Keyham, we issued guidance in advance about lessons that may be learned from those investigations and inquiries. If there are such lessons to be learned, we will have to issue interim guidance to police forces in particular. On the wider point about implementation made by the hon. Member for St Helens North, the police have been in possession of the new guidelines for some weeks in the hope that they can operationalise them quickly.”
“It also looks at fatalities in particular—I think there have been six since 2006 due to such firearms—and, critically, monitors the types of firearms used to look for patterns. I visited the service pre-covid and, even though I am a shotgun certificate holder—I declare an interest on that—I was surprised at the type of firearms that had previously been agreed to be antique. Some were quite muscular and capable in their intent, should anyone wish to use them in such a way. Given the requirement to apply for a licence, I understand that we have already issued advice for there to be an application for a licence—at least before 22 January—highlighting the omission to collectors and owners of such items in the hope that, as the regulations come into force, such licence applications can broadly be torn up.”
“First, on procedural safeguards to prevent a similar error, I think it is safe to say that this has been a chastening experience for all of us, and not least the brilliant firearms team who are technically adept in normal circumstances. I assure the hon. Member for St Helens North that they take such things seriously and I am hopeful that there will not be a reoccurrence. The hon. Member for Coatbridge, Chryston and Bellshill asked about monitoring the use of antique firearms in crime. The National Ballistics Intelligence Service, based in the west midlands, monitors the use of firearms across the piece and looks for patterns of behaviour. It saw a rise in the use of antique firearms between 2008 and 2016, with 95 uses in 2016, and recoveries have decreased slightly.”
“This will in turn support our commitment to rehabilitate offenders and, as a number of Members said, get them on to the straight and narrow and give them a second chance, not least because that is one of the key planks of reducing crime overall. Everyone who has taken part in this debate has my gratitude, not least for their brevity and their commitment to this issue.”
“This Bill does two things. It enables us to implement a rigorous drug-testing framework, enabling mandatory drug testing for psychoactive substances and prescription and pharmacy medicines. Supported by the change to urine testing, we can reliably test for a wider number of substances for longer. Urine testing gives us a date when drugs were taken, whereas I am afraid that follicle testing does not. A positive follicle test could mean that drugs were taken months before. The Bill will also put prevalence testing on a firmer statutory footing that allows us to better identify emerging trends and ensure we are able to react quickly. The combined measures set out in the Bill are intended to help us to tackle the use of drugs in approved premises and ensure that staff can respond effectively and put the necessary care planning in place.”