Kit Malthouse
MP for North West Hampshire · Conservative · United Kingdom
“We have heard time and time again that the situation that thousands of our constituents live with every single day is so horrific and appalling that even the best palliative care cannot alleviate their pain. I urge colleagues to consider what their vote may mean today.”
“I will not. Some of those Members had just a few months before been specifically rejected by the electorate and replaced in this House by others, and I am afraid that they cannot be trusted not to do the same thing again. I grant my right hon.”
“The Health and Social Care Committee of the House of Lords found that in territories that have assisted dying, palliative care generally improves, because people become less afraid of talking about death.”
“One of the most affecting people I have met over the last 11 years of campaigning on this issue is Warwick Jackson, who came to our party conference a couple of years ago. Warwick’s wife, Ann, was diagnosed with terminal peritoneal cancer. She basically knew that she was going to die a slow, suffocating death at the end.”
“I respect my right hon. and learned Friend’s expertise in this matter, but, as he has already heard on the Floor of the House, it is perfectly possible for this House to suggest amendments, negotiate them with the promoters of the Bill, place them against the legislation in the House of Lords and then have them come back to this House for…”
“As co-sponsor of the Bill once again, I am acutely conscious that there is more at stake today than merely the fate of those who are facing their end, because the conduct of the other place means that our democracy is also on trial today.”
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“One of the projects I am proud to have founded is Project ADDER, a joint Home Office, Department of Health and Social Care and Public Health England initiative that combines targeted and tougher policing with enhanced treatment and recovery services. Through Project ADDER, work is under way to improve outcomes for offenders with substance misuse needs in prison and within the ADDER geographies. It is also important that work to tackle substance misuse continues outside prison. We know the detrimental impact that drugs can have on an individual, both physically and mentally. Having a comprehensive framework of substance testing in place will be vital in ensuring that approved premises are safe and drug free, and that the risk of serious harm is reduced for the individual, other residents and, most importantly, the wider public.”
“As a number of Members have said, this Bill makes sure we can understand and react quickly to the changing patterns of drug misuse in approved premises, as drug misuse often hampers individuals’ chances of rehabilitation. As Members may be aware, around 80% of crime that receives a caution or conviction is committed by a repeat offender, and around 62% of prisoners have either an alcohol or drugs need, or both. Combating drug misuse is a priority for the Government. In January this year we announced £148 million to institute a system-wide approach to the problem of illegal drugs, with £80 million of new money being invested in treatment and recovery services beyond the prison gate.”
“I am extremely grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for Aylesbury (Rob Butler), who gave a comprehensive speech that is difficult to top. He was obviously rehearsing for being a Minister, given the number of interventions he took. I hope he will excuse me if I do not take any. This Bill is very important, and we look forward to it completing its passage. As my hon. Friend said, it continues from the Prisons (Substance Testing) Act 2021, which was another private Member’s Bill that received Royal Assent with support from both sides of the House. I am grateful for the support of the hon. Member for Stockton North (Alex Cunningham), too.”
“We don’t want you to do that. We would rather they were out on the street.” Which is exactly what my hon. Friend the Member for South Dorset wants. Kevin then said, “Maybe what we should do is leave the lights on so it looks like it is open 24 hours a day—would that be enough?” They all thought that was a fantastic idea. This illustrates quite neatly what my hon. Friend is talking about, which is the importance of a sense of presence. A police station, historically, has said something about police presence in an area. However, I know that he does not want the police sitting in a police station for longer than is necessary—he wants them out on the street.”
“Many years ago, when I was London Assembly member for West Central—which included Westminster, Kensington and Chelsea, and Hammersmith and Fulham—we had a horrible murder in Shepherd’s Bush. It was a dreadful murder; we were fighting knife crime across the city at the time. The then borough commander, a chap called Kevin Hurley, a chief superintendent who went on to be police and crime commissioner in Surrey, held a public meeting that I attended. During the public meeting there was a row of people at the front who said that the problem is that Shepherd’s Bush police station is not open 24 hours a day. Kevin said, “I’ll tell you what, then—I will reopen Shepherd’s Bush police station 24 hours a day if you tell me which four police officers you want me to take off patrol to man the front desk?” At which point, everybody said, “No, no, no.”
“Quite rightly, that is the job of the locally elected police and crime commissioner, in conjunction with the operationally independent chief of police. Having said that, I do recognise the role that police stations play in people’s sense of place. However, I think my hon. Friend the Member for South Dorset said a couple of interesting and conflicting things in his speech. He said that he wanted police officers to mix more with the community, and that a police station would allow them to do that. He also said that he wanted to reopen police stations and get police back on the streets. Those two things may not necessarily achieve the same aim. I will illustrate this to him with a story.”
“Often in the past we have found the police housed in Victorian buildings and custody suites that are not suitable for the modern day. Like all services—and like us in this glorious building in which we live—the police need to modernise their estate. Very often that estate is not well disposed. When I became deputy Mayor for policing in London we inherited a chaotic estate of property across London. Dozens of buildings of all shapes and sizes that had accumulated over the decades—over two centuries of policing—meant that we often had, even here in Pimlico, two police stations that were broadly 10 minutes’ walk from each other, both fully operational with front counters. Therefore, some rationalisation, efficiency measures and decisions made locally about the best way to dispose of the police estate are obviously necessary.”
“Member for Croydon Central (Sarah Jones). As far as London is concerned, the Mayor of London is in a much better position than me to make a decision about police stations in the capital, given that the mayoralty’s budget is significantly greater than the entire Home Office policing budget—approaching something like £19 billion. I do recognise this issue and the important part that police stations play in people’s perceptions of safety in their local area. I know that my hon. Friend the Member for South Dorset will agree that the police estate should not be set in aspic; there are buildings that are old and unsuitable, there are those that are in the wrong place and those that are inefficient or expensive to run.”
“It is a great pleasure to appear before you, Ms Fovargue, I think for the first time. I am grateful to you for presiding over our proceedings. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for South Dorset (Richard Drax) on securing this important debate. I know that he recognises that I do not, as a number of Members have said, have much sway over the doings of police and crime commissioners or the devolved Governments. I have no more ability to get the SNP Government to address the issue raised by the hon. Member for Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross (Jamie Stone) than I have to get them to sort out the Edinburgh children’s hospital debacle. Indeed, I have less power than the Secretary of State for Levelling Up, Housing and Communities to deal with Croydon’s disastrous finances, controlled, of course, by the party of the hon.”
“As we grow and expand, all police and crime commissioners and chief constables will need to review their estates, making sure that they are properly disposed and in the right place and that they have the capacity to cope with the new police officers coming on board. As my hon. Friend said, the ability to base themselves locally is important, because we want to minimise travel time to and from their place of work.”
“In order to get there, we need more resource. I hope my hon. Friend will have seen—I am surprised that the hon. Member for Croydon Central did not mention this—that today’s Budget gave policing a remarkably good settlement. The Chancellor has agreed to generously fund the continuation of the uplift, so that we will get to 20,000 police officers and then, critically, maintain that number. By the time we get to the end of the programme in 2024-25, there will be an additional £540 million for policing. We have also given greater flexibility to police and crime commissioners so that they can add up to £10 to the precept every year for the next three years, which should raise something approaching three quarters of a billion pounds for them to invest in policing.”
“We tried to address that in London all those years ago by insisting that police officers serving on neighbourhood teams spent at least three years on them, rather than a year or 18 months before moving on. That meant that they could develop good knowledge of the area and the kinds of relationships to provide the reinforcement that both my hon. Friend and I want to see. My hon. Friend referenced the revolution wrought in New York by a former mayor and police chief. Rather than investing in bricks and mortar, they flushed lots of cops out of the police stations and on to the streets, to the extent that it was very hard to go 50 yards without seeing a police officer dealing with the type of crime mentioned by my hon. Friend. I hope we will see more and more of that as the number of police officers increases.”
“I understand, but overall what we want is a greater sense of presence by whatever means it is delivered. I hope my hon. Friend will see that as we progress with the police uplift. We have announced today that we have now recruited more than 11,000 police officers across England and Wales—a gross recruitment of 23,000 police officers to backfill retirement, so we can do something to reinforce that sense of presence. My hon. Friend is right that alongside that sense of presence we want officers that have an intimate knowledge of their local neighbourhood. A critical issue for us is the connection between the police and public that comes from the relationship that they have in their local neighbourhoods.”
“Whether that involves a police station, more police officers, or a certain style of policing, that has to be our objective, but our fundamental requirement is that crime falls significantly. I know that he and I are joined in that mission, and I will do what I can to support him.”
“Friend will be interested to know that some of the early results are showing enormous falls in violence. In Southend we saw a fall of over 70% in violence, and in Bedfordshire there was a fall of 44%. I hope that this approach, which used to be called hotspot policing or cops on dots, will help us know where crime occurs, when it will occur and sometimes by who and that if a police officer is there at the right place and time, we can deter crime. I hope that the programme of grip policing will be so successful that it becomes business as usual, and we can return to the style of policing that my hon. Friend harked back to, which is one that is plugged into a local community, that is visible on the streets and, critically, that is effective in driving down crime.”
“He will be interested to know that a few months ago, we launched a “grip” programme where we put £18 million into police officers identifying where violence occurs in 18 areas of the country, with a sharp geographic focus. Violence is quite sticky and can often be confined to quite small areas. The police officers should visit those hotspots on a regular and, critically, a randomised basis, making sure that they know where they are. They have a little GPS locator that they can go in and out of, so that they know when to go there and when they have to leave. They only have to be there for 15 minutes or so: park the car somewhere high profile, walk around, talk to people, interact with local residents and shops, and then move on to the next hotspot. My hon.”
“However, that issue could represent a significant constraint, which is why we required a review of the property strategy for more police forces. I hope and believe that that will now happen, that as we move forward we will get the right property disposition, the right equipment that police officers need, the right accessibility for everybody to report crime and interact with police officers in any way they want, and that we will generally improve people’s sense and perception of safety in the public realm. Finally, I want to raise the issue that my hon. Friend neatly portrayed in that age-old phrase, “bobbies on the beat”. He is right that there is a basic expectation from the British people that they will see police officers patrolling their streets and keeping people safe.”
“It is very important that police and crime commissioners and chief constables keep their property portfolio under review and expand it as required for operational requirements and for the size of their forces. It is critical that police officers are put in the right place with the right facilities. My hon. Friend the Member for South Dorset will remember that early on in the uplift programme, when we announced that 20,000 police officers were coming forward, there was hilarity in the media when I said that one of the biggest constraints might be locker space, because space would be needed for 20,000 lockers. Most of the officers, if not all of them, will be on the frontline, out on the streets, because they will be in their early years of service.”
“Well, much as I would love to go for world domination, my writ does not run to Scotland and my ideas are not always necessarily welcome there. I have to say, however, that we are working co-operatively with the Scottish Government on the issue of drugs, a problem from which the hon. Gentleman’s constituency suffers, as does all of Scotland. I made a very productive visit to Police Scotland a few months ago. I went to see them in their castle on the central belt and talked to them about what more work we can do together on drugs in particular. If he will forgive me, I will refrain from recommending the disposition of police stations in his constituency and leave that argument to him and his Scottish nationalist friends.”
“The Prime Minister will therefore launch a taskforce to drive cross-Government action and to help maintain public confidence in policing and our many thousands of outstanding police officers. The police have a unique and vital role in our society and we rightly expect them to meet high standards of behaviour and professionalism. Across Government and policing, we must continue working ceaselessly to protect the precious bond of trust between officers and the public.”
“I would expect the second part to look at a range of relevant issues, from policing culture to whether enough is being done to identify and report patterns of behaviour of those individuals who could go on to abuse their policing powers. We will appoint the chair of the inquiry shortly and then agree terms of reference. The Home Secretary will, at that point, provide the House with an update. We have also asked Her Majesty’s inspectorate of constabulary to undertake an urgent inspection of forces to look at their vetting and counter-corruption arrangements, as well as focusing on how well forces can identify unacceptable behaviour. We recognise that sexual violence is a broader issue in society and we must leave no stone unturned in confronting it.”
“For the first time, the Home Office will also now be able to collect and publish data on issues of internal sexual misconduct by officers, and we aim to publish the first tranche of data in the new year. But we are determined to go further. The heinous murder of Sarah Everard by a serving police officer shook our country to the core. I know that the thoughts of everyone in this House will remain with Sarah’s family. The public are in urgent need of reassurance; so too are the vast majority of police officers who serve with courage and professionalism and who rely on all their colleagues to uphold their values. This is why the Government are launching a two-part independent inquiry. The first part will examine the recruitment and employment of Sarah’s killer and whether there were opportunities to have intercepted him along the way.”
“Abuse of position for sexual purpose by a police officer is abhorrent, betraying the trust of victims from a position of power. The Government are working closely with the National Police Chiefs Council and other policing stakeholders as part of a new national working group to implement the right strategies, policies and products to help forces to tackle those officers abusing their positions for sexual purposes. In February last year, the Government strengthened the powers of the independent police watchdog, the Independent Office of Police Conduct. Now all allegations of abuse of position for sexual purpose must, by law, be referred to the IOPC.”
“I am hopeful that the inquiry, when it completes, will give us the tools we need and the work processes to pursue to enable us to make sure that the net is ever tighter in maintaining the integrity of British policing.”
“Where that abhorrent behaviour is detected, the system must enable us to examine the behaviour, give a fair hearing, and then deal with those officers accordingly. The right hon. and learned Member will know that there has been significant work in this area over the past few years following a report by the inspectorate back in 2019 that looked at the specific issue. The National Police Chiefs Council has, as I say, set up a working group in which the Home Office participates to try to strengthen these routes. The inspectorate reported then that excellent progress has been made but there was still much more to do, not least in the detection and internal reporting of these matters.”
“Of course we all agree with the sentiments expressed by the right hon. and learned Member. This kind of behaviour has no place in British policing. She is right that we need to pay constant attention to the processes and products that policing has so that we can root out this behaviour and deal with it once and for all. She will know that the office of constable is a sacred and special one within our society, and certainly within our legal system. We must do all we can to protect its integrity, but at the same time recognise that even constables are owed due process, and that where complaints are made, we must have a robust system around those complaints and detecting abhorrent behaviour.”
“I cannot see that an NDA would necessarily be applicable in those circumstances, but she is right to point out that they are deeply undesirable.”
“I applaud the sentiments behind my right hon. Friend’s work in this area. NDAs are profoundly to be avoided. I cannot, I have to say, envisage the circumstances in which they would be used in policing, not least because, as I said earlier, following changes in the law, offences of this type have to be referred to the Independent Office for Police Conduct. Decisions are therefore taken independently in terms of the investigation and the proposed sanction. The disciplinary structure around police constables, which then follows those allegations or charges, is an independent one, run by an independent panel and with an independent qualified chair who makes decisions about disclosure or otherwise regarding the case.”
“One of those processes is what we are seeing with the uplift programme, which is essentially a greater feminisation of UK policing. We have moved over the past 10 years from 25% of the force being female to just over a third, and we have a number of forces where more than half of new recruits are female. I am hopeful that that progress will mean that women and girls feel that the police force better reflects them and may result in better contemplation of these issues.”
“I am grateful to the hon. Lady. On her substantive point about the inquiry, she will know that a statutory inquiry is a very long-winded affair to set up, and a non-statutory inquiry can be much quicker. She will also be aware that it is contrary to regulations, since a change in the law recently, for a police officer not to co-operate with such an inquiry, whether statutory or otherwise, and they would be subject to disciplinary proceedings if they did not co-operate. Having said that, if the chair of the inquiry feels that he or she is not getting the co-operation or the information they need, we have reserved the right to convert the inquiry into a statutory one. The hon. Lady is right that the inquiry forms part of a suite of tools that we need to restore and enhance the confidence particularly of women and girls in our police forces.”
“On my hon. Friend’s second point, these are exactly the issues we want to learn from as part of the inquiry. He is right that we need to ensure that the vetting net is as tight as possible. He will know that police officers are vetted at a number of points during their careers, and often on transfer, as he says. We need to ensure that that is happening and has happened. If there are lessons to be learned, we will learn them. He is right that this is not necessarily a problem just for the police in one particular area or for the police as a whole; it is one that we have to face as a society generally. I have to reassure him that some of the strongest advocates for change, some of the individuals most outraged by previous events and some of those most committed to maintaining the integrity of the police force are police officers themselves.”
“As I say, our job is to help the police to rebuild that bond of trust, whether in Scotland, England, Wales or Northern Ireland, and we will do our best to stand alongside them.”
“I obviously cannot speak to the individual cases that the hon. Lady has outlined, but like most of the British public, I need to have faith in the independent structures that are put in place. All offences of that type must by law be referred to the Independent Office for Police Conduct, and all disciplinary proceedings within the police force are dealt with by independent panels chaired by legally qualified chairs. That is the due process that produces these numbers. We hope that the work we are doing through the National Police Chiefs’ Council, the reforms that we have put in place around the IOPC and the lessons that will then come out of the inquiry will form a suite of information and tools that will help to bolster the faith that the vast majority of the British people have in the vast majority of police officers.”
“We brought about reforms in the law to produce a police barred list, which is there precisely to stop police officers who are convicted of offences or disciplinary matters from rejoining the police. My hon. Friend raises a good issue that, in theory, when a police officer rejoins the police, as my hon. Friend the Member for North Dorset (Simon Hoare) referred to, that should come up on their vetting report. As part of our inquiries, we will have to make sure that the processes are in place to detect exactly the kind of information that she is looking for. As I say, following this dreadful event—the killing of Sarah Everard— our job is to make sure that the vetting net is as tight as possible and those are exactly the sorts of areas that we will need to explore.”
“The Chair of the Select Committee is right that such offences or allegations need to be dealt with swiftly and robustly, but she will understand that the decision to suspend a police officer primarily lies with the chief constable, for important reasons. Obviously, we are working with the National Police Chiefs’ Council to make sure that we have a consistent approach to those kinds of offences across all police forces, but that is definitely a matter that falls into the area of operational independence, so the policy is decided on a force-by-force basis, albeit that the College of Policing issues guidelines. Given her long history in the area, I know that she will recognise the importance of a chief constable taking responsibility primarily for the suspension or otherwise of the officers in that force.”
“I wholeheartedly agree with my hon. Friend. She is right that we can put in place all the structures and processes that we like but, unless there is a significant change in the culture, such practices will often go undetected. There is, however, a strong movement in British policing now to deal with the issue. For example, a large number of male officers are involved in the HeForShe campaign within the Metropolitan police, led by the deputy commissioner himself, in trying to bring about the recognition of the need for transparency and reporting, and the recognition that everybody has a job to do to help to root out that kind of conduct.”
“I thank the hon. Lady for recognising that there are many thousands of police officers out there doing an outstanding job. I know that they will appreciate her recognition of their work. If she is receiving abuse online from individuals purporting to be police officers, ex-police officers or otherwise, I ask her please to report every single one.”
“Well, I am grateful that she does, because gathering that kind of intelligence is exactly what we need. As she will know, there is an ongoing review of MPs’ safety and the kind of hatred and abuse that she and others have to put up with online. In terms of the wider issue about cultural change, the hon. Lady is right. I cannot comment on the individual disciplinary proceedings around that horrendous murder in north London, but she is right that part of our restoring the trust and sense of integrity in British policing is making sure, when such events happen, that the disciplinary proceedings and consequences are swift and certain; that they are conducted with rigour and alacrity; and that there is transparency about them so that the notion that the police are defensive on those issues is completely dispelled.”
“As she rightly points out, however, there is still a hell of a lot more to do, and I hope and believe that the working group that the NPCC has set up, in which, as I say, the Home Office is participating, will bring about the real change she is looking for.”
“I am grateful to the hon. Lady, who brings her experience to bear on this area. The message we get from the inspectorate, which has looked at the issue over a number of years and no doubt will again, is that there has been change and improvement in a number of police forces, but it is too patchy, and that the greater resource and greater use of software in many ways—for reporting and for detection—could be more widespread. The hon. Lady will know that a number of forces have software that detects when officers are accessing certain kinds of material on databases about victims or witnesses, which is useful. We have had several situations where officers have been caught illegally accessing that information and disciplinary or criminal proceedings have resulted from that.”
“As I said earlier, these are necessarily matters that fall under the operational independence of a chief constable. One would hope that chief constables in those circumstances might, for example, place an officer on restricted duties or indeed suspend that officer if the allegation were serious enough.”
“The right hon. and learned Lady is shaking her head, and I understand that she finds that unsatisfactory, but there are important reasons why chief constables must be the primary source of responsibility, both for suspension and for discipline, in maintaining the integrity of their own police force. Having said that, the inquiries and reviews that are under way will teach us lessons about what more we can and should do to improve this situation. I would hope and believe that, when we come back with the conclusions from those pieces of work, we can talk again about this issue.”
“Lady’s case, to the Mayor of London—and policy will be set between those two. As I say, there are important reasons why a chief constable must be responsible for the suspension or otherwise of an officer. That is separate from the requirement in law to report these offences to the IOPC, where an independent investigation can take place and then disciplinary proceedings follow, if possible. I realise that many Members of the House believe that this process appears long-winded. Our job is to balance two things: the right of a constable to due process against the right and the need of the public, particularly women and girls, to have a sense of trust in the system. That is exactly what we will try to learn from and improve through the inquiries we are undertaking and the work that we are doing with the National Police Chiefs’ Council.”
“I agree with the hon. Lady that things have to change, and that is what we are trying to bring about. She will know that, if she has specific constituency cases of people who are dissatisfied, alarmed or concerned about their treatment at the hands of the police, they can go to the Independent Office for Police Conduct and seek satisfaction through that route. They do not have to rely on the police themselves. As I said earlier, we have to divide two issues here. First, there are allegations of serious sexual offending, which must now by law be reported to the Independent Office for Police Conduct. The issue generally of suspension or otherwise for a police officer does at the moment fall to chief constables. Obviously, they are accountable to the local police and crime commissioner—in the hon.”
“I am happy to consider that issue—absolutely. As I said earlier in my statement, we are about—I hope in the new year—for the first time to publish internal force statistics which will give us the full picture. At the moment, we publish national statistics to do with the IOPC inquiries in this area, but a number of allegations are dealt with internally in a force. Once we have that data and it is out in the public domain, we will be able to make a judgment, exactly as the right hon. Member says, about consistency of disposal, and consider what more needs to be done.”
“That is the work we are trying to get done through this working group with the National Police Chiefs’ Council. It is very apprised of the importance of this issue, and I have been pleased by the commitment it is showing to this stream of work. I am hopeful that we will reach the greater consistency she seeks in the months to come.”
“As I say, I am merely stating a fact that, at the moment, suspension falls to the chief constable, but it is in the nature of this that, with 43 chief constables across England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland, there will be a variable approach. It is in the nature of any— [ Interruption. ] It is in the nature of any organisation that that is the case, in the same way that we have a variable approach to detecting and prosecuting different types of crime. Our job at the Home Office— [ Interruption. ] Please allow me to complete my answer. Our job at the Home Office, exactly as the right hon. Lady is seeking, is to try to embed a sense of consistency of approach across all of those forces to make sure that the British people can have trust in their police whether they are in London, Manchester, Belfast or Edinburgh.”
“The hon. Lady has stated a number of matters as fact that may not be the case. I do not want to prejudge the conclusions, certainly of part 1 of the inquiry. The whole idea of that inquiry is to look at exactly the entire career of that monstrous individual to learn lessons about what may or may not have happened—for example, what previous forces knew about him, and whether he did have that nickname in the previous force—and what lessons we should learn from that about wider policy in maintaining the integrity of the police.”
“I certainly agree that those disgraceful attitudes should be rooted out, and I would urge the individuals affected to make a report and a complaint to the police force concerned.”
“Our stream of work in dealing with the dreadful offences that are committed against women and girls across the country on a daily basis and driving those numbers down, while at the same time working hard to build and restore trust between the police and women and girls, and with all groups in society, must be critical for the health of British policing, and for our greater safety.”