Christine Jardine
MP for Edinburgh West · Liberal Democrat · United Kingdom
“I associate myself with your comments, Mr Speaker, and those of the Secretary of State. Figures quoted today by the BBC suggest that as many as one in five young people in education may not be attending college courses regularly, so the situation may be even worse than outlined in the Milburn report.”
“I completely agree, and it did the other place no credit at all that they did that. There is something interesting and noticeable about all the experiences we have heard today. I have personal experience, which I admit influences my view. I saw my mother go through a very painful death and wished that she had had the choice.”
“I thank the hon. Member for Rochester and Strood (Lauren Edwards) for reintroducing this Bill and giving us another chance to debate the issue—although part of me regrets, as I will explain, that we have that chance.”
“That hope has been snatched away from them—and not by us. We fulfilled our responsibility to the electorate. We spent hundreds of hours in Committee, in private discussions, in debates and on Report, going over this Bill in minute detail until we could, with confidence, send to the other place the best Bill we thought possible.”
“I do, but they are each one individual, and each of the professional organisations is neutral, and believe me, I envy them on that. We have the responsibility to make the decision. The majority of us have already said that this is the best Bill we can produce.”
“I apologise for the earlier slip, Madam Deputy Speaker. May I echo the comments about the fantastic job done safeguarding the British public by the staff at NATS? Just recently, I visited air traffic control in our control tower at Edinburgh airport, and I saw at first hand the amount of work that goes into keeping the public safe.”
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“I thank the right hon. Member for Chingford and Woodford Green (Sir Iain Duncan Smith) for securing this urgent question on a crucial issue for all of us in this place, because we are looking for robust action from this Government to keep our politics and democracy safe from the influence of foreign Governments. We should not pretend for a moment that the case of H6 is in any way unique or unusual because, as we have heard, the director general of MI5, Ken McCallum, has warned that bodies like the UFWD are “mounting patient, well-funded, deceptive campaigns to buy and exert influence.” We see it in our business world, and we see it in our universities.”
“On Friday I will be visiting the delivery office in my constituency. Like other Members, I am concerned to reassure those who work there about what this privatisation will mean for them. We have talked a lot about services and universal obligations, but what reassurances can the Minister give that jobs will not be lost down the line?”
“I agree with the Minister: it is very disappointing. For many parents, current maternity pay is too low, and the leave system is not flexible enough. A recent report by the BBC said that almost half of new fathers were unaware of what was available to them. The system is skewed, and the take-up is lower among lower earning families. That is particularly important—this was pointed out to me by a constituent in Edinburgh West—for those with multiple births who need not only more time but more financial support during maternity leave. Does the Minister agree that maternity pay levels need to be increased, and that the flexibility of the scheme needs to be improved, as does public awareness?”
“I, too, thank the Secretary of State for the empathetic and reassuring approach he has taken today, because this has been a very toxic and, in many ways, very damaging debate for everyone involved. Further to the question about continued care, what reassurances can he give to people who have embarked on a course of treatment that they might now fear will be halted, and to the very many young people and their families in this country who are going through a very difficult time? Desperate situations make people do desperate things. What steps is the Secretary of State taking to ensure that the availability of these drugs is not driven underground—that they are not made available through means that none of us would like to see?”
“Further to the point made by the hon. Member for Edinburgh South West (Dr Arthur), one of the complicating factors in Scotland is that we have no way of knowing for sure whether the money raised from VAT on schools throughout the United Kingdom will go back into our state education system in Scotland, which is struggling just as badly as the system in England, if not more so. On the point about parents of children with SEND, is there not a danger that, rather than paying the extra fees, because they cannot pay them they will take their children out of independent schools and put them into the state sector, whose already overstretched resources will then be stretched even further, and everybody will suffer?”
“I take exception to this idea of “the people who can best afford it.” A lot of parents who send their children to independent schools cannot really afford it—they scrimp and save. I do not think it is fair to characterise them that way. If they are forced to remove their children from those schools, it will not be the schools that suffer, it will be their children, and an extra burden will be put on the state system. This is hardly raising money to help other people.”
“Whatever the reason, it is time that the UK Government paid attention to the people who have signed this petition to say that we must find a way of preventing the damage that is done every year.”
“The Kennel Club says that around 80% of dog owners notice their pets shivering, barking excessively, hiding, howling and crying as a result of stress caused by fireworks. The British Veterinary Association says that some animals suffer such terror that they have to be put down. It may seem unusual that the death of one baby red panda in a zoo should cause such outrage, but perhaps it is the irony of an endangered species being legally protected across Asia, carefully looked after and bred by one of the world’s respected zoological societies and yet utterly defenceless against noisy fireworks, or perhaps it is the innocence of a tiny orphaned creature that tugs at our heartstrings.”
“That is why I welcome the private Member’s Bill of the hon. Member for Luton North (Sarah Owen). We need to somehow limit noise levels, especially of fireworks sold to the public, so perhaps the time has come to question our attitude to fireworks, if not through legislation. We need to think about how we prevent celebrations descending into antisocial nuisance. Many people agree that something should be done—they signed the petitions, after all—so it is time we listened. We know from official figures that around 2,000 people visit accident and emergency departments with firework-related injuries every year, many of them severe burns that require long-term treatment. Sadly Roxie, the red panda cub, is not the only animal casualty.”
“Worse, I thought about the accident and emergency departments that would deal with burns. I thought about instances like the heartbreaking story of Josephine. I pay tribute to her family and thank them for allowing her story to be shared here today. I, too, am reluctant to ban fireworks, partly because I loved bonfire night as a child. When we were parents of young children, our group of friends loved the annual firework display, with hot drinks and snacks organised by the school. Hogmanay for me is defined by the awe-inspiring firework displays from Sydney to New York to mark their respective midnights, and Edinburgh is of course always a highlight. I have always believed that the availability of fireworks for those spectacular organised public displays was part of a valuable expression of celebration, but now I am not so sure.”
“It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Edward. I thank the hon. Member for Keighley and Ilkley (Robbie Moore) for securing this debate, which has a specific resonance in my constituency. When Edinburgh Zoo told me what happened to the baby red panda whose birth we had all welcomed and celebrated just a few days before, my stomach dropped. It was heartbreaking. What terror she must have felt alone in the dark, bombarded by loud noises she could not have understood and with no comfort. We later learned that her mother had also died probably as a result of stress caused by fireworks. I thought about other animals, not just in Edinburgh Zoo but across the country. My dog had paced the floor barking, running in from the garden terrified when the first of what seemed like hundreds of fireworks began going off.”
“I agree that that is often the case, but it still leaves the problem of noise, which is central. In Scotland we have an unusual situation: the use of fireworks is devolved, but the regulation of the sale of fireworks is reserved, so local authorities such as Edinburgh have brought in trial control zones. Edinburgh Zoo welcomed that, but suggested that silent or at least quieter fireworks might be the solution; others want an outright ban or specially controlled areas. As I say, Edinburgh introduced such areas this year, but unfortunately it could not select the area around Edinburgh Zoo in my constituency. Whatever the solution, we have to find it quickly or accept that fireworks and firework displays will be consigned to the past because they are too noisy, stressful for animals and dangerous for people.”
“The right hon. Member mentioned support from the British Government. Does he agree that that support is not always as consistent across the globe as we might like and as many members of the public would imagine it to be? There is no guarantee or legal right imposed on the UK Government to do it in the way that there is, for example, on the American Government. Does he think that the situation is unsatisfactory and, if so, what does he think the Government should do about it?”
“I am sure that, like the hon. Member for West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine (Andrew Bowie) and myself, the Secretary of State for Scotland is watching with bated breath for the latest Scottish Budget. After 17 years of incompetence, people are looking for change in Scotland, and the Labour party is promising it. Will the Secretary of State follow the initiative of his Scottish leader, Anas Sarwar, in saying he will reinstate the winter fuel allowance and make representations to the Prime Minister to reconsider other policies, such as the national insurance changes, which are creating instability and uncertainty for the Scottish economy?”
“How does it help morale and positivity among small businesses, which will be vital to economic growth, if some of them are going to see their salary bills double? An employer in my constituency—not quite a small business, but a medium-sized business—is facing crippling increases in the salary bill. How will it help growth if those companies go to the wall and we lose jobs?”
“Does the hon. Gentleman understand how frustrating it is for Liberal Democrat Members to be told that this is the Scottish Government’s problem? It is not the Scottish Government’s problem; it is the problem of Scottish businesses if they are being hit by national insurance contribution increases without business rates relief. We are tired of hearing that this was a tough decision; it was an easy decision that is tough for businesses.”
“I concur exactly with everything the hon. Member has said. It is a cause close to my own heart. In fact, I have a private Member’s Bill on this very subject due to be considered in July. Does he agree with me that this is something the Government should look at and help to happen, because it should not need legislation?”
“Member for Stevenage for how he introduced both petitions, and I say to the Government: please, before my private Member’s Bill comes before the House in July, may we come up with a way of saving so many children in this country going through any more long-term pain? The help is there for them—charities such as Winston’s Wish want to help them, but they just do not know where those children are.”
“When I spoke to one of the charities involved with adults bereaved as children, one of its psychologists said to me, “You do realise you could be opening a whole can of worms for yourself. You might not have dealt with this quite as well as you thought you did.” I think she is wrong, but we never know—it does come back in later life. It can contribute to the burden on the NHS or problems in the economy. If we will not look only at the huge moral and compassionate case for having this register, we should look at the economic one and see that that backs up the moral and compassionate case. I thank the hon.”
“The idea is to have a register, a simple box-ticking exercise to say, when a death is recorded, that there is a child who may be affected, with paperwork handed out —the leaflets, the contacts—and that would not mean letting that data be public. There would never have to be any publication of the data; it would simply be putting people who need the help in touch with the people who can offer that help. If we do not do that, we face the situation that the hon. Member for Stevenage talked about: adults who went through a traumatic experience as a child never getting the help they need to get over it fully, so that it comes back when they are adults. That can get them involved in crime or drugs, or give them difficulty forming personal relationships.”
“That is why I think that a record, as the petition calls for, is the best way forward. To turn briefly to other subjects, it is vital to teach about bereavement and loss in school—that is the role that schools have played—but, with respect to Members from the previous Government, they seemed to think that only schools should have responsibility. I do not think that is what children or their parents want. Children who have lost a parent, a grandparent, a friend’s parent or a sibling need help at times when the school is not available—at night, when they are lonely or upset, or when they are a teenager and do not know who to turn to for advice. That is when they need their peers. Often, they do not want to talk to the school, or they might move school and not know many people.”
“They didn’t think we needed them. Do you know it’s still the same?” I think a friend’s partner had died and I realised that nothing had changed in 40 years, and I thought that was ridiculous. I spoke to staff at Winston’s Wish and they said, “Yeah, the problem is that we know how many children are bereaved every year. We know they are out there and we have the support networks to help them. We have the facilities. We have peers they can talk to who will appreciate it”—as the hon. Member for Stevenage (Kevin Bonavia) said—“but the charities and organisations do not know how to get in touch with the children because it is not recorded where they are.” The families do not know how to get in touch with the support networks because, when they go to record a death, no one asks, “Do you need help for a child?” It should be simple.”
“It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mrs Harris. This is something like the fifth debate on this subject that I have taken part in since I became an MP in 2017, and it is more than two years since I asked the then Leader of the House whether we could have a debate on it. During those two and a half years, I have repeatedly asked the Government to look at a register for bereaved children, because it was suggested to me by Winston’s Wish. I first thought about and became aware of this issue in a conversation with my sister over lunch. My sister, who is now 50, said to me, “Do you remember how when dad died”—when she was eight—“we never really saw anybody from social services? Nobody came to see us and nothing happened.” I said, “Yeah, that’s right, because we had never been in contact with social services.”
“Many of us have watched loved ones die difficult deaths, and we have over the past few weeks, months and years in politics heard harrowing tales and spoken to families who have had no choice but to watch their loved ones pass in the most harrowing of circumstances, or make an expensive—for many, prohibitively expensive—trip to Dignitas alone. I cannot help about those things they have been denied by the cruellest of fates, but surely we cannot deny them choice at end of life.”
“Members, to respect those who have already been denied so much in their lives—those things I said they might want that they might be denied. We have a choice today: we can lead a national conversation that examines the issue before all of us, dissect the Bill line by line and check its effectiveness, or we can vote to close it down today, and then the country and the families who are suffering will be denied the light they want to see thrown on the issue and the voice they want their loved ones or perhaps themselves to have.”
“For those with religious beliefs that mean they cannot countenance the Bill, I understand and respect their concerns, but I would not be standing here if I was not convinced that in this Bill we have the best opportunity to provide a choice safeguarded by medical and legal professionals and protected from that slippery slope. It happened in Canada because they did not have “terminal diagnosis” in the definition of the Bill from the beginning, but we do. If we vote the Bill through, it will go on to have the further and tougher levels of scrutiny that every piece of legislation in this place and the other place must go through. I respect everyone’s concerns and beliefs, but I also ask them, and all hon.”
“I do not know what I would have wanted but, as I waited, I thought about all the things I wanted to do and might be denied. People with a terminal diagnosis think about what they planned to do with their life, such as seeing their children and grandchildren grow and marry. When we came here today, we were all aware of that, and we thought seriously about the implications and the need for palliative care, but it is not our job to say that we should not do this because palliative care needs to be improved and because the NHS cannot cope. Our job is to say that we need to improve palliative care so that the NHS can cope, and so that we can do this. On the safeguards that are needed and included in the Bill, I believe they are there.”
“It is an honour to follow the hon. Member for Brent East (Dawn Butler). I also pay tribute to the hon. Member for Spen Valley (Kim Leadbeater). The spirit in which this debate has been conducted today is a tribute to her leadership on this issue. This debate has been harrowing for all of us. However, to us falls the responsibility and the privilege of making this decision on behalf of those who go through experiences so harrowing that I do not think any of us can imagine them, even though we have heard their tales—I know that I cannot. Until recently, I put it to the back of my mind that I have actually been in the situation of waiting to find out whether I would have a terminal diagnosis. I was lucky, as it went the other way.”
“Friend the Member for Kingston and Surbiton (Ed Davey), who will be meeting her next week. Unfortunately, I have heard this morning that the Prime Minister has declined to meet Anne, and is referring her to the Pensions Minister. I appreciate that, but Anne is very disappointed, as she feels that this issue really needs to be tackled by the Prime Minister, and she wanted him to hear what she had to say. I wonder if the Leader of the House could perhaps make further representations to the Prime Minister to see whether he will meet Anne.”
“First, I thank the hon. Member for Rochdale (Paul Waugh) for raising the issue of epilepsy. It is particularly important to me, as many years ago, I woke up in hospital, having had a seizure in my sleep. I know how life-changing it can be. In October, as the Leader of the House may remember, I raised the issue of half a million British pensioners overseas whose pensions have been frozen. Many of those pensioners are originally from my constituency, and I have heard from further former residents since that occasion. The Leader of the House kindly offered to raise it with the relevant Government Departments. On behalf of the campaign, Anne Puckridge—a former war veteran who has been affected—is coming over next week for her 100th birthday, and had hoped to meet with leading politicians, including my own party leader, my right hon.”
“I welcome much of what the Secretary of State has said, and I am delighted that she has assured us that there will be discussions with the Scottish Government about plans for Scotland. Throughout the past two or three years, businesses in my constituency have told me that they are concerned that they cannot get people to work for them, so this strategy will be welcome. However, does the Secretary of State appreciate that many of us see a contradiction between this policy and the national insurance changes? A major employer in my constituency tells me that the changes will cost it £250,000 extra a year, and it will not take on seasonal workers because it cannot afford to. How does that damaging policy for business go alongside trying to encourage more people back to work?”
“Data shows us that women of colour face disproportionate rates of homicide and that adults of black, black British or mixed ethnicity are more likely to experience sexual assault than those of white, Asian or other ethnicities. These challenges are just as common when it comes to domestic abuse. Those people are less likely to access support services than white women. We desperately need stronger action to support these vulnerable women, so can the Minister tell me how the Government will ensure that we help more women from ethnic minority backgrounds to get the support that they need and end the injustice that they face?”
“In the two weeks since the Budget, several GP practices in my constituency of Edinburgh West, including my own, have contacted me with their genuine fears that the impact of the changes to national insurance employer contributions will threaten their ability to continue to offer the public the same standard of health service that they currently receive. And they are far from the only ones struggling, particularly in the health and social care sectors. Can the Prime Minister explain to me—perhaps he and his Chancellor would like to come to my constituency and explain to GPs, charities and others—how they are meant to cope without extra support from the Government?”
“The price cap rise, winter fuel payment cuts, higher standing charges and lower temperatures are all things that my constituents in Edinburgh West—particularly my pensioners—are coming to me with concerns about. What is the Secretary of State planning to do to work with Ofgem and the energy companies to come up with a fairer set of circumstances for my constituents and others in similar situations?”
“The Scottish Government recently decided against including misogyny in their Hate Crime and Public Order (Scotland) Act 2021, but we know how pernicious and widespread misogyny is, especially in the context of domestic abuse. Just 6% of all offences are reported, and there are even lower rates for rape and sexual assault convictions. Is the Lord Chancellor planning to review aggravated offences, and misogyny in particular, to ensure that women and girls get the protection that we deserve?”
“Will the Minister tell me what conversations the Secretary of State has had with European partners on building resilience in air traffic control? Do the Government have confidence in the robustness of air traffic control in the UK to serve our connectivity properly?”
“Thank you very much, Mr Speaker. I can sympathise with the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon), and I thank him for tabling the urgent question, because we consistently have the same problem at Edinburgh and other Scottish airports, with a lack of connectivity and the disruption that that causes. I understand that the weather was a key reason for the delays this weekend, but another was delays at air traffic control, which is under pressure because of staff shortages and rising traffic. Eurocontrol, the main organisation supporting European airspace, has warned that to keep passengers safe and stop disruption better co-ordination is required between aircraft operators, airports and others across the continent.”
“I was listening very carefully to what the hon. Lady said about her experience as a practice manager. Over this past weekend and the last two days, I have been contacted by local practices in my constituency that are concerned about the impact of the national insurance changes on their ability to provide patient care and the vital first step towards getting people into the hospital and through the waiting lists. Does the hon. Lady agree that we have to address that as a fundamental problem that is potentially created by this Budget?”
“Does the Secretary of State accept that it might have been better to hold a wider review of the whole system—it is broken; we know that—instead of jumping immediately to putting up tuition fees? She says that we all respect and want to protect our world-beating universities, but how does she square that with her Government removing the funding for the exascale computer at Edinburgh University, which would have maintained not only its position, but our whole university sector’s position?”
“As the Secretary of State knows, I recently had the opportunity to visit California with the Scottish Affairs Committee to look at how that state has created an environment that encourages new space projects. In Scotland, we have a unique opportunity, not least because of developments in Glasgow, but also because the University of Edinburgh is already well respected and part of the programmes at Stanford, New York University, Columbia and NASA. What will the Government do to encourage the creation of that sort of environment in Scotland, and will the University of Edinburgh, given its reputation, be central to that?”
“Further to the point that the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) made, although I fully accept that we have to do more in terms of stroke care, does my hon. Friend agree that the population of this country is generally unaware of the early warning signs of stroke to look for? When it actually happens, we recognise the symptoms, but we have no awareness of the long-term warning signs. We need to invest in teaching people what to look for and how to care for themselves to avoid a stroke.”
“T7. My constituency, like most others, is seeing a great deal of new housing being built, which means more infrastructure, more business and more opportunities for growth. Key to that, however, is access to reliable, high-speed broadband. Given the SNP Government’s previous failures to deliver gigabit broadband to every home as promised, can the Minister tell us what discussions are taking place and what consideration is being given to supporting its efficient delivery in Scotland?”
“Like every Member, in my constituency I receive hundreds of representations from Hongkongers in this country who are concerned about their own safety—I have experience of it myself: I was filmed by a drone while speaking at a Hong Kong protest in Edinburgh—but they are also concerned about their families at home. What assurances can the Foreign Secretary give us about the safety of Hongkongers in this country, and more importantly about plugging the gaps in the British national overseas scheme?”
“Although we respect and would protect the right to peaceful protest, antisemitic and Islamophobic offences have been reported at many recent protests. Those have contributed to an astonishing and shocking 25% increase in religiously aggravated hate crimes in this country, as was revealed last week. The Community Security Trust reports an almost 500% rise in antisemitic incidents, and Tell MAMA has recorded the highest ever number of anti-Muslim incidents. Can the Minister reassure us on what the Government will do to help the police continue to keep communities safe, and police protests in a way that does that?”
“Nearly half a million British pensioners across the globe had the level of their pensions frozen when they left the country. That includes 99-year-old Anne Puckeridge, a decorated world war two veteran who did not leave this country for Canada until she was 76. Despite having paid a lifetime of national insurance contributions, she has seen her pension diminish every year. Ironically, this mostly affects pensioners who have gone to Commonwealth countries, because people who go to the European Union or the United States, for example, get the uplift each year. Can we have a statement from the Pensions Minister on what the Government intend to do about this? Will the Leader of the House arrange a meeting with the Government for me and others who will be meeting Anne when she comes to this country in December to celebrate her 100th birthday?”
“I fully appreciate what the Minister says about the engagement of the Government in standing up for international law, but, with respect, it has been a year now, and every time we come here we hear the same thing: that the situation has got worse. The entire region is living in fear, and the death toll is unimaginable. Have we not reached the point where we must accept that continually saying “This has to change” is not enough? We need to hear from the Government what actions will actually be taken to convince both sides that we need a ceasefire and we need the humanitarian aid. Ninety-seven hostages have been in captivity for a year, and we need more than engagement and reminders of their plight; so what are the Government going to do?”
“The right hon. Gentleman has made great play of how our constitution should develop, but does he not accept that almost every Government, apart from the most recent one, have looked at the House of Lords and how it could be reformed? Many of us believe that the reform should go much further than that put forward by this Government, which we see as just a first step towards a properly elected, fully democratic upper Chamber that serves the people.”
“With the pilots forthcoming, we hope that we can have a successful system in Scotland and the co-operation that the Secretary of State mentioned.”
“I welcome the remarks of the Secretary of State and the shadow Secretary of State, the hon. Member for Berwickshire, Roxburgh and Selkirk, and I confirm that the Liberal Democrats also welcome the order. The changes should ensure that the pension age disability payment is recognised in UK law, so that no one loses out and no new loopholes are created. It is critical to ensure that the new system is a success, given the long delays that we have seen for many people in Scotland. Although there have been improvements for many in recent years, people have had to wait for months in some cases for adult disability benefit claims to be processed—last year, the figures were depressing. With today’s order, we hope that we can move forward and that there will be improvements in the system.”
“Further to the question that my hon. Friend the Member for Carshalton and Wallington (Bobby Dean) asked, DWP statistics show that 45% of people over the state pension age have a disability. As we have already heard, they can face hugely inflated energy costs because of the need for equipment such as stair lifts, extra fridges or oxygen tanks, all of which demand electricity. In the discussions that the Minister has outlined, have the Government given any consideration to the introduction of a social tariff to help mitigate the extra costs that disabled people face in this country?”