Marsha De Cordova
MP for Battersea · Labour · United Kingdom
“I thank my hon. Friend for the very powerful speech she is giving; she truly sets the tone when she talks about disabled people. There was a poll out this morning of thousands of disabled people, and many of them rightly said that they need assistance to live.”
“My hon. Friend is making a good case for this Bill, but she will know that when the Bill was introduced in 2024, no equality impact assessment was carried out.”
“May I say how delighted I was to see the hon. Member’s name on the Order Paper? He did not have to bob this time. I join him in congratulating churches on the valuable role their play in supporting young people, and I thank him for raising the excellent work of churches in Newtownards. Following my exchange with the right hon.”
“May I first thank my hon. Friend for her continued and steadfast support for the Palestinians? Since the start of this year, the UN has reported that 76 Palestinians have been killed by settler violence, and that number includes 18 children.”
“I have several constituents who are retired civil servants and are still waiting to receive their pension statements and their pensions. This is causing a lot of worry, distress and, in some cases, financial hardship.”
“As my hon. Friend mentions, in parts of Nigeria Christian communities continue to face considerable persecution, particularly from Fulani militia and Boko Haram. This has been happening for many decades.”
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“I congratulate the Prime Minister and his colleagues on their success at the summit. The Government’s hard work has paid off: this is a good deal and a good first step. Businesses will benefit from a reduction in red tape, and consumers will see lower bills in the long run. The announcement on youth experience and Erasmus+ will be welcomed by the many young people in my constituency. I also welcome the recognition of the value of touring artists in both the EU and the UK. I realise that the barriers to touring are complex, but will the PM commit himself to keeping up the hard work so we can begin to reduce and break down those barriers?”
“We know that 94% of applications are under the £25,000 cap and will not be affected, but 260 Church of England churches will be. Although that makes only 6% of claims on the scheme, the impact will be huge. The retrospective implementation of the new scheme is causing immense difficulty, preventing responsible budgeting, commissioning work on multi-year refurbishment schemes and good stewardship of the buildings. It is preventing craft businesses, such as masons and glaziers, from taking on apprentices, as they are unable to guarantee work. Obviously, it is adversely affecting our communities, particularly those most in need of support. There is no doubt we need a long-term solution beyond the year-on-year extension.”
“The UK has 15,000 historic listed places of worship in use across all faiths and denominations: churches, chapels, synagogues, mosques and temples. Approximately 12,500 of them are Church of England churches or cathedrals, and in the past decade the number of listed places on Historic England’s heritage at risk register increased to 969, some 911 of which are Church of England buildings. The listed places of worship grant scheme was introduced by the last Labour Government under the then Chancellor Gordon Brown, and it has been a lifeline in maintaining those buildings. Although the Church welcomes the continuation of the scheme for an additional year, the reduction from £42 million to £23 million a year and the new cap of £25,000 per place of worship jeopardise the ongoing future of many projects.”
“Although a core activity of churches is worship, they do so much more. They are pillars for community, social action, culture and heritage. They support the national economy, offer apprenticeships for key trade and craft skills and are collectively one of the largest commissioners of the arts in the UK. They are drivers of regeneration and place making. They are well on their way to achieving net zero by 2030 across all their buildings. They are involved in running or supporting food banks, groups for the elderly or vulnerable, and parent and toddler groups, often in the places where they are most needed. They offer warm spaces during the winter. During the winter months in Battersea, St Peter’s, St Michael’s, St Barnabas’s and the Ascension church host night shelters, which I had the pleasure of visiting last winter.”
“The church supports the needs of its communities through services for victims of domestic violence and young families’ support services, as well as by serving breakfast to more than 200 people every week. Similar Church of England churches and cathedrals support more than 31,000 social action programmes annually. They deliver more than 14,000 of those projects themselves, while other projects are hosted by churches and carried out in partnership with volunteers and supported by donations. The National Churches Trust’s “The House of Good” reports, which I hope my hon. Friend the Minister has seen, clearly show the community benefit of churches: every £1 invested in any church creates a return for the community of £16. Dare I ask where else the Government could get a return like that?”
“That is part of their vocation to serve—their desire to reflect the values of Jesus Christ through their faith, love, hospitality and service to their neighbours. I hope that this debate will allow us to recognise the incredible work of our local churches and other religious organisations. A parish church is often central to the community. It is a hub around which a village, town or city has grown. It gives a great sense of place. Parishes have a specific duty to serve all their communities, regardless of faith, background or affiliation. Our churches are not just there for Sunday services; they are active seven days a week. I must declare my interest as an attendee of Holy Trinity Clapham, or HTC, which is a grade II listed building.”
“I beg to move, That this House has considered the impact of churches and religious buildings on communities. It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Jeremy. I am pleased to have secured this important and timely debate with the right hon. Member for Salisbury (John Glen). Today, I speak with two hats on, as the MP for Battersea and as the Second Church Estates Commissioner. It is undeniable that churches and religious buildings have a positive impact on our communities in constituencies across the country, and I intend to show examples of this throughout my speech. Churches such as St Mary’s in Battersea do valuable work in their communities every day, and their contributions are often delivered at no cost to the state but with such a great return for the communities in which they serve.”
“It holds drop-in and collection days for food, clothes and children’s toys. All Hallows-on-the-Wall, London hosts a young person’s programme in its nave, which for 30 years has supported thousands of challenging and excluded young people across the city into work. Wells Cathedral’s “warm rail” initiative provides free donated clothes and winter coats, and offers a warm space and hot refreshments. Many churches support the warm welcome campaign in response to the cost of living crisis. I share those examples to show the significant impact those churches have socially and economically. I know the Government recognise their impact and would not want to see any listed places no longer able to make their vital contributions to the communities they serve.”
“The hon. Member is right that we have had many exchanges. He knows that I am firmly committed to ensuring that the scheme is extended and, more importantly, that schemes in train will be protected. I will come to that shortly. It is time to give stability and certainty to these treasures of our built heritage. I will not list all 260 churches, as we do not have time. My own church of Holy Trinity, Clapham has raised more than £6.2 million for vital repairs designed to make the church more accessible to the local community. As I said earlier, it provides local communities with huge amounts of support, such as advice and advocacy on debt, providing hot meals and sport and social activities. Other examples include Sunderland Minster, another grade II building, with a long-standing ministry to refugees and asylum seekers.”
“Secondly, will the Government prioritise support for projects that are already under way and/or for which contracts were signed before the cap was introduced? I highlighted a number of churches in that position; the overall figure is estimated to be 260.”
“England’s heritage generates a £45.1 billion gross value added impact, supporting more than half a million jobs, and our cathedrals attract millions of visitors, fostering local economies and preserving our cultural heritage. I am sure the right hon. Member for Salisbury will touch on that in his remarks. Does the Minister agree that our churches make an invaluable contribution to our communities? Will he raise with his colleagues in the Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport the following three key things that the Government could do to support these valuable community assets? First, will the Government make the listed places of worship scheme permanent, without a cap, for each place of worship beyond March 2026? It is vital that those churches are supported so they can continue to serve their communities.”
“A bid to the National Lottery Heritage Fund or other grant funding may rely on the listed places of worship scheme to match funding. Last year, the Heritage Fund announced £100 million to support places of worship over the next three years, and parish giving continues to be a form of local support, but I say again that that will not be enough to support the work that every church needs to undertake. Aside from their social and economic impact, church buildings contribute to the creative and performing arts by providing hundreds of locations for amateur and professional arts of all genres for the Government’s Arts Everywhere initiative.”
“The right hon. and learned Gentleman will not be surprised to hear that I fully agree. I turn to some of the work that churches do. The Church Commissioners already contribute considerable sums from their funds to provide grants to Church of England dioceses and support many projects, particularly in underserved communities. The Buildings for Mission project has provided £9 million for dioceses for 35 locally based church building support officers, and grants for minor repairs and improvement. Through the cathedral sustainability fund, the Church Commissioners have provided £30 million of targeted funding for cathedrals since 2017. But no one organisation can provide support on its own; we all need to pull together to support these treasures.”
“If that church is on the list of 260, it would be, but I would be very happy if the hon. Gentleman follows that up with me after the debate so we can look into it. Thirdly, will the Government consider establishing a new capital funding scheme for listed places of all faiths and denominations? Finally, would my hon. Friend the Minister, when he is liaising with Ministers in the Department for Culture, Media and Sport, agree to meet me and representatives of some of the churches that are affected by the changes to the listed places of worship scheme, to listen to their experiences and find a solution? I think we can all agree that if we do not find a way forward, the impact will be great.”
“I thank the Minister for giving way. He is making a good speech responding to the debate, but I raised three points at the start: making the scheme permanent, prioritising support for those projects that are already under way and looking at a capital fund. Will he respond to those specific points?”
“Members for Farnham and Bordon (Gregory Stafford), for Christchurch (Sir Christopher Chope), for Tiverton and Minehead (Rachel Gilmour), for Bridgwater (Sir Ashley Fox), and for East Londonderry (Mr Campbell), and my hon. Friend the Member for Carlisle (Ms Minns) for their interventions. Finally, I thank the many church leaders for their leadership, for their selfless service and for the incredible work they are doing in our communities and constituencies up and down the country. I thank each and every Member who spoke, and all those who continue to raise this important issue. Question put and agreed to. Resolved, That this House has considered the impact of churches and religious buildings on communities.”
“Friend the Member for Clapham and Brixton Hill (Bell Ribeiro-Addy), who made a wonderful speech on the importance of our church, Holy Trinity Clapham—a thread throughout the entire debate. I also thank the hon. Member for Brigg and Immingham (Martin Vickers); I will take back his point about the speed with which we appoint our archbishop. I thank my hon. Friends the Members for Derby North (Catherine Atkinson) and for South West Norfolk (Terry Jermy), and the hon. Members for Strangford (Jim Shannon), for Leicester South (Shockat Adam)—let us hope that one day Leicester will be back in the premier league, not least for my own family interest—for Yeovil (Adam Dance), and for Melksham and Devizes (Brian Mathew) for their speeches. I also thank the right hon. and learned Member for Torridge and Tavistock (Sir Geoffrey Cox), the hon.”
“I think Members across the Chamber will agree that this has been a good-spirited debate. It has not been party political, because churches and places of worship are present in all our constituencies. We have heard some good examples of the significant role and impact of our listed places, whether they are providing a breakfast club, a warm space or wonderful musical recitals—I feel I need to be invited to Derby cathedral at some point. The Government cannot afford not to act to ensure that these places are protected, so I hope that the Minister will take that message back. I thank the right hon. Member for Salisbury (John Glen) for co-sponsoring this debate, showing how we can work across party on issues of common interest, and my hon.”
“My hon. Friend is making an excellent speech. Constituents and small and medium-sized businesses are crying out for this Labour Government to come forward and renegotiate a good trade deal so that businesses can thrive. Does he agree that this Government are taking the right pragmatic approach in wanting to deliver growth for our country?”
“I thank my hon. Friend for giving way and for the speech she is making. We all know the importance of data. Does she agree that it is right that when we are recording sex, it is based on what the Equality Act 2010 determines as sex, being biological sex?”
“I thank the Minister for his response, and I welcome all the work that he and the Secretary of State are doing in rebuilding our NHS. However, we know that there is a capacity crisis within eye healthcare. NHS ophthalmology continues to be the busiest and largest outpatient service. That is essentially what is leading to many people not getting seen soon enough, which is resulting in many of them losing their sight unnecessarily. What we need is a joined-up healthcare plan. Will the Minister ensure that eye healthcare will be part of the Government’s wider 10-year health plan?”
“The Israeli Government’s plan to expand their military operation in Gaza and displace its population speaks volumes about the effects of their impunity—impunity to break international law, to cut off food and medical supplies, to starve a population and to kill tens of thousands of civilians. What will the Minister do to end the impunity with which Israel is acting? When will he finally sanction those Israeli Ministers, apply a full arms embargo, ban all settlement goods and, most importantly, recognise Palestine?”
“May I first welcome and thank the Minister for the measured way she delivered the statement, but also for her robust work on this issue? Last week’s landmark Supreme Court judgment provided not only clarity, but some long-overdue common sense. For too long, the issue has at times been toxic and has caused a great deal of harm to both women and trans people. Will she confirm that her Department is liaising with the EHRC to seek assurances that it will not only work at pace, but set some clear timelines on updating the statutory guidance? Will she also ensure that any guidance that is now unlawful is withdrawn?”
“I recently visited the Glass Door night shelter in my constituency to hear more about the work it is doing to alleviate homelessness. One of the things it told me was that many of the women who visit the shelter are fleeing domestic abuse. We all know the challenges if somebody is homeless: it is almost impossible to get a job, let alone to find somewhere safe and decent to live. The Minister has highlighted the investment. Can she set out a little more about the money being invested in services not only to support but to protect women fleeing domestic abuse?”
“The Church Commissioners are engaged in informal discussions with the Charity Commission to consider what regulatory approvals may be required to progress this project.”
“The fund for healing, repair and justice is the Church Commissioners’ response to its legacy links to the chattel enslavement of Africans. The fund will be sourced from the endowment managed by the Church Commissioners, and the board will always act in accordance with the charity’s legal powers. Once discussions with the Charity Commission are completed, the board will take a formal decision on those next steps. The hon. Member will obviously agree that I cannot prejudge the outcome of those discussions.”
“The situation facing all Palestinian communities in Israeli-occupied Gaza and the west bank is devastating, with tens of thousands killed and almost 2 million displaced. The Anglican communion continues to support people in the region, providing healthcare and education alongside pastoral work at St George’s cathedral in Jerusalem, in partnership with other Churches.”
“I thank my hon. Friend for his important and timely question. The ongoing de facto annexation of parts of the west bank and threats to annex parts of Gaza are incredibly disturbing. In February, the Heads of Churches in Jerusalem issued a joint statement against the threat of mass displacement, and I agree with them that there can be no justification for uprooting people who are already suffering beyond all measure. My hon. Friend is absolutely right to outline that international law must be upheld at all times, and there are significant concerns about what is taking place in Israel at the moment.”
“I thank the right hon. Gentleman for his question on this important issue. I continue to engage with the Foreign Secretary’s team and office on this issue, and I will write to the Government yet again, to ensure that they are defending and protecting the rights of all Palestinians. I think we can all agree that we need to see an end to the violence and the killing of innocent people.”
“I recently met my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport to discuss the importance of the scheme’s future and the impact that any changes will have.”
“There is no question but that churches are facing many challenges in this space. The in-year increases in the running costs for parishes, such as the national insurance increases, increases in energy costs and, obviously, the changes to the listed places of worship grant scheme, have presented challenges, but I can tell my hon. Friend that the Church Commissioners distributed £1.2 billion to support parishes between 2023 and 2025.”
“As I have outlined, I raised my concerns when I met the Secretary of State to discuss the impact on the many churches that will be affected, particularly those that already have projects and works ongoing. I am very happy to write to the hon. Gentleman on the potential funding opportunities that may be available to churches in Farnham.”
“I thank my hon. Friend, who has raised this issue on many occasions. Yes, I will seek to arrange a roundtable meeting with the churches impacted. I hope we can also ensure that a Minister is present at that meeting, to hear at first hand about the impact of the cap and the potential future of the scheme.”
“Ever since I took on this role, this issue has come up time and again. I commit to writing to the hon. Member on this, having looked into what other support is available to her. If she could also write to me and set out the churches that are impacted, she can also be included in any such a meeting.”
“A survey carried out by the Church Commissioners found that at least 200 projects have been identified as likely to be affected by the cap on claims, including cathedrals and many parish churches in areas of considerable deprivation.”
“As outlined in my earlier responses to questions on a similar issue, I have met the Secretary of State and put across those concerns. I commend the congregation of Christ Church in Wanstead for all their work in the community, providing music festivals, youth groups, bereavement support and so, so much more. Relieving the burden of finding an extra 20% to repair the grade I listed building would mean more time that could be spent on work with vulnerable communities. I will commit to writing to my hon. Friend with information about grants that may be available.”
“The Church Commissioners granted an option over its mineral rights in Bishop Aukland to a specialist exploration company, Northern Lithium Ltd, in 2023. It has invested significantly in the local economy, which is expected to increase as exploration continues.”
“Yes, I am very happy to meet my hon. Friend. The Church Commissioners have transparently registered all mineral rights with the Land Registry. I cannot comment on the specifics, as I am sure he would agree, but I am very happy to meet him and will ensure there are officials from the Church investment team, too.”
“The Church of England is working with A Rocha UK to support parishes in meeting their net zero targets. Grants are being awarded to parishes to help them make quick wins in reducing their running costs, such as energy efficient lightbulbs and modern heating systems.”
“I am very happy to congratulate the congregations of St Michael and Christ Church on achieving their silver eco church awards. In my hon. Friend’s constituency, there are many parishes that I am sure could learn from the great work those churches are doing. I also thank her for her commitment to her local faith organisations.”
“I thank my right hon. Friend for how he is responding to this urgent question. The Conservatives, after 14 years in government, broke our social security system and created a hostile environment for disabled people, and therefore it is for us—Labour in government—to fix our social security system. I would like to press my right hon. Friend on this: 30% of disabled people already live in poverty, and the proposed changes to personal independence payment could see more being pushed further into poverty and many being pushed out of work. Indeed, the Government’s impact assessment highlighted that 150,000 people could lose carer’s allowance or the carer’s element. May I press him again to think about how we ensure that we support ill and disabled people as we fix the mess that the Tories have created?”
“Instead of having to rely on grants from the Church Commissioners to defray their liability to repair the chancels of various parish churches, chapters will no longer carry the liability; it will be transferred to the commissioners, who will become subject to a direct statutory obligation to meet the liabilities that have, until now, fallen on cathedral chapters. As hon. Members will be aware from the report, the Ecclesiastical Committee has considered this Measure and found it to be expedient.”
“Thus, parishes will no longer need to go to the trouble of registering chancel repair liability for which the commissioners are responsible, the parishes will continue to be entitled to receive payments from the commissioners to maintain the chancels of their churches, and the commissioners will be able to sell land without having to reduce the sale price to take account of a liability having been registered against the title. The Measure will also simplify matters for cathedral chapters.”
“If the liability is not registered against the title of the land, a purchaser takes the land free of the liability, in which case the parish loses out because the liability effectively disappears and the parishioners have to find the funds themselves to keep the chancel in repair. The lead Measure will cut through some of the complex issues that I have just set out. It will detach chancel liability from any land that currently belongs to the Church Commissioners and turn it into a free-standing statutory obligation.”
“They expect expenditure for 2024 and 2025 to be in the region of £1.2 million for each year. Cathedral chapters carry liability for the chancels of around 200 parish churches. The Church Commissioners currently have a statutory power to make grants to chapters to pay those liabilities. In 2023, the commissioners made net grants of about £124,000 to chapters for that purpose, meeting the entirety of the cathedral chapters’ liabilities in that regard. When land that carries chancel repair liability is sold, the purchaser takes on the liability if it is registered against the title of the land. That has the potential to reduce the value of the land in question and result in lower sale proceeds than would otherwise be the case.”
“Legislation over several centuries, beginning with the dissolution of the monasteries in the 1530s and concluding with the establishment of the Church Commissioners in 1947, has resulted in the commissioners inheriting some of the land that had belonged to the rectors of various parishes. Because the land once formed part of a rector’s endowment, ownership carries with it the rector’s liability to keep in repair the chancel of the relevant parish church. The commissioners’ land carries liability for about 350 parish churches. In some cases, the commissioners have the whole liability; in others, they share it with other landowners. In 2023, they incurred net expenditure of around £354,000 on chancel repairs, which is considerably less than the £608,000 incurred in 2022.”
“The lead Measure rationalises the legal basis on which the Church Commissioners are obliged to provide funds to repair the chancels of certain parish churches. The law in this area dates back to before the dissolution of the monasteries in the 16th century. The rule that applied generally in England was that the people of the parish were responsible for maintaining the nave of the church—the main part where people generally stand or kneel during services—and the rector of the parish was responsible for the chancel, which is the easternmost part of the church containing the altar and seats for the clergy.”
“The Measure enables the trustees of the CBF Church of England Funds to transfer the assets of the funds to a charity authorised investment fund. The result will be that instead of being unregulated, the funds will be authorised and regulated jointly by the FCA and the Charity Commission. VAT will also cease to be payable on the investment managers’ fees, resulting in a cost saving to church investors. The Ecclesiastical Committee has found this Measure, too, to be expedient.”
“To address that, the Measure enables the transfer of the funds to a “charity authorised investment fund”. The structure for that type of fund was created in 2016 by the Financial Conduct Authority working with the Charity Commission. It has significant advantages for investors. First, charity authorised investment funds are jointly regulated by the Charity Commission and the Financial Conduct Authority, which offers investors greater protection and reassurance that the funds are regulated and overseen in accordance with the industry best practice, while maintaining their charitable status. Secondly, no VAT is payable on the fees of the managers of these funds, resulting in modest cost savings for charities that invest in them.”
“That is correct. This Measure is about making it simpler and the parishes will not incur any additional liabilities or charges. The second Measure is another piece of reforming legislation. It updates legislation dating from 1958 dealing with pooled investment funds that belong to various Church of England bodies. Those are collectively known as the CBF—Central Board of Finance—Church of England Funds, but I shall refer to them as the funds going forward. Approximately 11,500 church bodies invest in these funds, including diocesan boards of finance, parochial church councils and cathedral chapters. The current assets of the funds are in the region of £3 billion. The legislation authorising these investment funds, the Church Funds Investment Measure 1958, is out of date and prevents these funds from becoming regulated funds.”