Dr Neil Hudson
MP for Epping Forest · Conservative · United Kingdom
“263.] On the issue of energy, which is pertinent, given that incinerators provide around 3% of the UK’s total energy generation, much of Britain’s total energy needs are still met by oil and gas. Both the Government and the Climate Change Committee have admitted that we will still need oil and gas for decades to come.”
“Studies suggest that environmental contamination can bring “heightened stress and anxiety to the point of dread”. The UK Health Security Agency found that “it is not possible to rule out adverse health effects from MWI completely”, which will offer little reassurance to constituents living near one.”
“Member for Ely and East Cambridgeshire (Charlotte Cane) also discussed the fire issue. The hon. Member for Heywood and Middleton North (Mrs Blundell) discussed odour and wellbeing issues. The hon.”
“I am very proud of the previous Conservative Government’s record on this issue. We introduced the 2018 resources and waste strategy, the 2023 waste prevention programme and a statutory target to halve residual waste per person by 2042.”
“Sites that are managed poorly and left to get out of hand by the authorities can lead to a vicious cycle where unscrupulous operators move in, fly-tipping is exacerbated and local communities and the environment are negatively impacted. The Countryside Alliance’s recent report on waste crime is useful here.”
“It is always a huge pleasure to be intervened on by the hon. Gentleman. He has been very kind to me over the years. After my maiden speech, he came across the Chamber to speak to me and was very kind, so I will always take an intervention from him, as I am sure everyone else will. I totally agree.”
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“Our new clause would provide a natural mechanism to ensure that long-term planning and reviews of the Act are taking place and that the Government are looking at water pollution and the actions that the water industry has taken or needs to take to further improve the situation. We should not shy away from the fact that the new clause would build on the previous Government’s efforts to look at that point. Our plan for water set out a 25-year plan to ensure that our water companies were investing in our water system for the long term, not just while the issue was in the headlines. Again, that is why our new clause matters: because it would ensure the continued focus of Governments of all parties on the protection of our waters. That matters all the time, not just when it becomes a political or media issue.”
“We should not underestimate those on the frontline who do so much to keep people safe, to make sure that the environment is protected and to ensure that the quality of people’s water is safe and suitable. To improve our water systems, however, the buck must stop not with the EA, but higher up: with DEFRA and the Government. The new clause would help to provide that accountability. As in our earlier discussions regarding the online publication of implementation reports, if the measures set out in the Government’s approach do not meet their targets, for legitimate reasons, the Government would have a chance to lay out exactly why not and to give a justification for their findings on the Act’s impact.”
“We cannot rightly say on the one hand that water companies should be expected to meet criteria to restore public trust, while suggesting on the other hand that the Government should not likewise work to be accountable and to uphold public trust on the issue. Furthermore, the new clause feeds into the basic fact that ensuring that our water systems are being improved is not a one-time event that can be magically resolved with a single piece of legislation every now and then. It must be a consistent focus for the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs and for all the agencies under whose remit the issue falls. The work of agencies such as the Environment Agency is vital. I pay tribute to its hard work, not least when flooding hits, as we have discussed.”
“I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time. New clause 6 is a fair and reasonable request to strengthen the Bill. Quite simply, it would do what it says on the tin by requiring the Government to report on the impact that they expect the Bill to have on water pollution and on the actual and verifiable effects that the Bill, when it becomes an Act, will have on our water quality. It is completely agreed that accountability for addressing the quality of our water system should be at the heart of how we tackle water pollution and related issues. That should be true of every actor involved: not just the water companies, but the Government whose regulation they are expected to abide by.”
“I thank the Minister for her constructive response, but the Opposition still feel that this is an important new clause in relation to the impact on water pollution, so we would like to proceed again to a formal vote.”
“It is the whole approach—from incident, to investigation, to penalty—that needs to be examined and reviewed in order to drive change, and that is what has been done and what this legislation is trying to take forward. Although things are not perfect, we need to allow the existing legislation, as well as this new legislation, to take effect so that the regulator can get on and do its job. We should not put things in jeopardy by completely abolishing things. I note that the Liberal Democrats have tabled this new clause, and they are not pushing it to a vote, but I want to put on record the Opposition’s reservations about what they are suggesting.”
“That very same month, Thames Water was fined over £18 million for its failure to obey rules introduced on the spending of dividends. Those incidents are not good news stories, and we should never say that they are, but they are signs that the mechanism is working. Ofwat is holding the companies to account and trying to act—it is trying to use the teeth that are there. There are early signs that giving the regulator those teeth—which we have heard a lot about in this Committee —means that there are clear consequences for the water companies that break the rules that have been implemented. That is not the end of the story, but it is the start of the journey, as we try to hold those water companies to account. As I have also mentioned, the pathway for inspections into water company activity is increasing.”
“While none of us wants to see water bills rise for any of our constituents, particularly in difficult economic times, bills would have only been higher if a regulator had not been there at all. If we are left with a vacuum until a replacement mechanism is put in place, and if that takes a lot of time, do we really want to run the risk of unregulated companies raising prices even further in the meantime? We are in agreement that the status quo has not been good enough when it comes to water companies, but progress has been made and continues to be made in that seismic task. Water companies are starting to face the financial penalties for their failures to both people and our precious environment. For example, back in November, Wessex Water was ordered to pay £500,000 for the loss of thousands of fish because of a sewage pumping failure.”
“In doing that, we would be left with a vacuum while a new regulator was set up—something we can ill afford when we all agree that there is so much work to be done. A new regulator could not be established overnight; it could take months or even years while structures were being established, the personnel needed to do its everyday work were appointed and the like. Let us be honest that making such a move would not come without financial cost. Even if that money could be raised through Government resources—ultimately, that means taxpayers’ money—we would be using it to establish a completely new infrastructure for the water regulator, rather than trying to enhance and give more power to the regulator we already have. In addition, we have to remember that its role as a regulator affects consumer bills, too.”
“If we were to proceed with the new clause, we would simply be left in limbo and in the lurch with regard to regulation of the industry. It is not that we believe that the situation is perfect: we have debated the powers of the Environment Agency and Ofwat, and we have agreed that things are not perfect with the water industry and regulators. We have all heard at first hand about issues that we are not happy with, such as executives moving into higher-paid roles within water regulators, of which we heard evidence in the EFRA Committee in the last Parliament. The hon. Member for Westmorland and Lonsdale generously shouted out the people who work in Ofwat and the Environment Agency, but although he will not push new clause 7 to a vote, he still talks about abolishing Ofwat.”
“As we have gone through the Bill, there has been a lot of cross-party consensus on trying to get measures in place. I respect the efforts of the hon. Member for Westmorland and Lonsdale and the third party in trying to improve the situation, not least in such matters as nature-based solutions. From the official Opposition’s perspective, however, the hon. Member’s new clause 7 is perhaps an overly eager response. Throwing out Ofwat completely at this juncture when we want it to do its regulatory job would create more problems than he wants, whatever the intention of the new clause. I know that the Liberal Democrats have argued that steps should be taken to set up a new regulator in some way. New clause 7 does not really introduce a specific requirement or measures to enable a transition from Ofwat to the purported new regulator.”
“The Minister said that she worries that the amendment from Lord Cromwell would duplicate things. Actually, it is quite a simple amendment that achieved a lot of cross-party support in the other place. If it duplicates things, a bit of repetition is not a bad thing to ensure annual financial reporting by water companies. It would not create confusion: repeating this important matter on the face of the Bill would just create clarity, so we urge the Government to reconsider.”
“The Minister says that she would like to do this properly. We all agree around this House on the scale of the problem, the public outrage at some of the things that have happened with water companies and the fact that we are trying to address and improve our water quality. I am therefore curious why both the Government and the third party are shying away from giving the Secretary of State and the Department the democratic powers and accountability to pass statutory instruments, which, as we all know, can be done very quickly. We have talked about dental analogies. I am an equine vet; I have rasped many teeth in my time. It would help ministerial oversight to see that the dental work is being done properly.”
“We talked about citizen science: this will give those data to the people to analyse and hold water companies to account. The Conservatives will therefore be pressing amendment 6 to a Division. I am conscious of time, Mr Vickers. Are you going to call stumps in about 20 seconds?”
“The report highlighted, however, that at the time there was a trend towards companies sharing data with their key partners, rather than making information completely and clearly available for unrestricted public access. The report therefore explicitly recommended that companies in the water sector should look at the data they had been sharing only with specific groups and partners, and take steps to make available those data where they can. Amendment 6 would solve the problem of information reports before it could even arise—upstream—by unequivocally stating that water companies must publish implementation reports on their websites that would be accessible to all members of the public, not just those with the time and influence to ask for such data.”
“In terms of the environment, it highlighted that open data from sewage overflow monitoring were beneficial to the creation of the predictive analytics tools used in Wessex Water’s intelligent sewers competition, which helped to identify sewage blockages much earlier than they otherwise would have been. That demonstrates an explicit link between the work of recent years to require data monitoring in the water industry, such as on storm overflows—I reiterate that 100% are monitored thanks to the work of the previous Conservative Government—and improvements in the water industry’s tackling of pollution. That is in addition to the improved accountability and the responsibility that data publication places on water companies to get the issue right.”
“In all walks of life, sometimes people’s efforts to make good on promises cannot come to full fruition for reasons beyond their control. If genuine reasons arise for not meeting targets, there can be full transparency for the public as to why, so they can understand more about the nature of the industry and the issues involved in protecting the quality of our water system. In other words, full transparency is in everyone’s interests. A 2023 review commissioned by Ofwat about the importance of open data was clear that open data provide great benefits in a range of areas when it comes to the water industry.”
“Requiring implementation reports to be published online in an accessible way sets out an explicit and clear definition to water companies of how they are expected to publish any such plans, as the clause requires, and demonstrates how water companies must comply with the law in unequivocal terms. In stressing accessibility, amendment 6 would end the ambiguity that can sometimes exist for the public, which means that it is often too easy for companies to hide away behind protocol and procedure. By making such information available to consumers, we would ensure that there could be no hiding in murky waters on this vital issue and the concrete commitments to improving our waterways. Water companies can also benefit from the chance to make reflections on their progress available in full sight of the public.”
“In fact, we welcome the Government’s willingness to listen to the concerns from Conservative peers, including Lord Roborough, and peers from other parties in the other place to strengthen clause 2, including the requirement for implementation reports to be drafted by water companies in the first place and ensuring that the requirements for pollution incident reduction plans also include water supply system-related incidents, not just sewage-related incidents. However, we believe that amendment 6 would go even further to strengthen that proposal and advance the accountability that we all want water companies to have.”
“It is a vital step in trying to restore the trust that water companies may be seen to have lost in recent years with the public through their inadequate actions to deal with this issue, as people have seen and as hon. Members have articulated today on both sides of the House. It is very much about having not just words and promises but explicit standards to judge water companies by, and it would form a kind of contract between the companies and their consumers, who would then know what to expect from their individual company. His Majesty’s Opposition have no objections to the principle of clause 2 and its requirement that water companies publish an implementation report, nor in the specific details that companies would be expected to produce in proposed new section 205B of the Water Industry Act 1991.”
“I rise to speak about amendments 6 and 9, proposed by His Majesty’s Opposition. I hope that they are self-explanatory amendments that are quite simply about the core concept of accountability, which was at the heart of the previous Government’s mission to improve our water system. We must remember that at the heart of every failure that damages our waterways, it is the Great British public—those who rely on our waterways as consumers and as members of communities served by them—who are let down and denied the rights to pollution-free water systems to which they are entitled. Amendment 6, which would require water companies to publish their implementation reports accessibly online, gives the public a tangible and visible sign by which water companies can be held to account for the promises they make and the actions they say they will take.”
“We worked to encourage water companies to invest in peat restoration, and allowed teams at national parks to bid for investment that improved their water environments. The history of recent work on national parks goes beyond just the most recent Government, with the Glover review being published in July 2019. In a response to that review, the Conservatives highlighted their commitment to national parks and water quality, such as through developing the natural capital and ecosystem assessment, which combined data science, citizen science and earth observation technology to inform water quality improvements as a priority target; and ensured that capital and natural capital reporting were embedded into the management plans of protected landscapes.”
“On that note, I will move on to amendment 9, which would make it a requirement for pollution incident reduction plans to include how an undertaker intends to reduce the occurrence of pollution incidents in national parks attributable to their water system. The Opposition tabled the amendment to strengthen the existing plans that the Government have put forward, so that no stone is left unturned in ensuring environmental protections from our water companies. The amendment ensures that water companies make it clear how they will work to reduce pollution incidents in national parks in a system that a water company operates in. National parks are an area that the previous Conservative Government took great efforts to protect in their legislative programme on protected landscapes.”
“In the interests of promoting transparency and clarity, we would still like to press our amendment 6 to a vote. To bolster, support and protect the precious integrity of our national parks, we would like to do the same with amendment 9. Amendment proposed : 9, in clause 2, page 5, line 10, at end insert— “(2A) A pollution incident reduction plan must, in particular, state how the undertaker intends to reduce the occurrence of pollution incidents in national parks that are attributable to its system.”— (Dr Hudson.) Question put, That the amendment be made.”
“On that basis, I encourage the Government to support the amendment, as it clearly does not seek to frustrate their intentions to be stringent with the water companies about duties on emergency overflows. The amendment merely strengthens the existing conditions in the clause by providing further clarity and specificity. We urge the Government to consider it.”
“Although the Government may argue that the risk is alleviated by clause 3 in and of itself, this amendment goes further in its specificity about the publication of data relating to emergency overflows. By requiring the home page to be used for publication of emergency overflow data, the requirement in clause 3 that the information be published in a way that makes it readily accessible to the public would be given a definition that the Bill in its current form lacks. In other words, amendment 3 would provide explicit clarity in the Bill for water companies about the requirements for publication of emergency overflow information, without the risk of dispute down the line about whether an individual company has complied with the measure’s requirements.”
“That was in addition to fast-tracking £180 million of investment from water companies to prevent 8,000 sewage spills in 2024, and introducing requirements for further investment, over 25 years, of upwards of £60 billion. Moving forward, however, we need to ensure that emergency overflows are treated with a similar parity of attention. We do not want the hypothetical situation to arise whereby the problem of storm overflows, which have had so much attention in recent years, is simply shifted to emergency overflows, and technical fault is used as an unnecessary justification for emergency overflows to occur. By requiring emergency overflow information to be published on the home page of each and every water company’s website, this risk is potentially alleviated.”
“Friend would go further by setting a clearer guideline for how transparent water companies must expect to be for every specific incidence of an emergency overflow that may occur. We of course know that emergency overflows are those that occur particularly when technical faults or blockages in the water system arise and require overflows to help with their resolution, as opposed to storm overflows, where the system is overwhelmed by excess surface water or groundwater entering the network. The work of the previous Conservative Government tackled the issue of storm overflows—unlike any Government who had preceded them—including by, as I have said, getting 100% of reporting and monitoring of storm overflows, which was at 7% back in 2010.”
“It is a great pleasure to speak to amendment 3, in the name of my hon. Friend the Member for Beaconsfield (Joy Morrissey). Today, there is a recurrent theme—transparency and clarity. We want cleaner waters and we want the data collection to be transparent and available to people so that they can actually monitor and analyse. The spirit of this amendment is, again, transparency and clarity. Amendment 3 would, as the text suggests, make it a statutory requirement for water companies to publish the information that they have on discharges from emergency overflows on the home page of their website. Some water companies already go some way to discussing overflows of different kinds, including what they are and why they occur, but this amendment from my hon.”
“Of course, at the same time, however, as human error and technical fault can plague many walks of life and water companies are no exception, there must be a fair and reasonable opportunity for water companies and chief executives accused of violating their duties to show that they have genuinely tried to comply with the duties of reporting emergency overflows. Therefore, subsection (2) of amendment 4 provides explicit criteria that failure to meet the duties of publication for storm overflows does not result in a criminal offence when the company has done all it reasonably could to prevent the incident from occurring.”
“I come back to our points about transparency. There can be no defence from any water company that it does not understand that duty or why that duty matters. Given the Bill already puts in place the principle of a criminal offence for failure to fulfil a reasonable duty and establishes a criminal offence for failure to co-operate or to obstruct a regulatory investigation, the amendment would strengthen the Bill’s intent that water companies’ conduct must be subject to criminal sanction and unlimited fines.”
“The Government have set out in the Bill plans to put in place a criminal offence for failing to co-operate with or obstructing regulatory investigations. The amendment seeks to address a gap in those plans in a key area of public concern—a duty to report discharges from emergency overflows. Despite significant steps, some water companies are not taking their responsibilities to protect our waterways seriously enough. This is a sector where the rewards for success have historically been high for shareholders and, as we have heard a lot about, for executives. It is time now for serious consequences for failure to protect our waterways and the public to sit alongside those rewards for success. The duty to report discharges from emergency overflows is basic, reasonable and vital to public transparency.”
“That introduced the statutory duty for water companies to publish storm overflow data in England every year and a storm overflow discharge reduction plan that created strict targets for sewage pollution and demanded water company investment in the necessary infrastructure to resolve issues. Amendment 4 would address the need to ensure that emergency overflows are subject to the strict enforcement that we have seen exercised towards storm overflows in recent years. We have seen that an emphasis on strict enforcement can work in getting the reform that we all want to see the industry practise, and indeed in improving water quality. I note and welcome the comments from the hon. Member for Witney who welcomed the progress that we have made in that area on monitoring and trying to address these issues.”
“In my remarks on amendment 3, I highlighted the fact that parity of attention between storm overflows and emergency flows is critical to action in regulating the water industry. With that point in mind, I move amendment 4, in the name of my hon. Friend the Member for Beaconsfield, which would make it a criminal offence for water companies and their chief executives to fail to comply with their duty to report on discharges from emergency overflows. As I stated earlier, much was done to tackle the issue of storm overflows by the previous Conservative Government, including the passing of the Environment Act 2021, which we have spoken a lot about today.”
“I beg to move amendment 4, in clause 3, page 9, line 38, at end insert— “141H Failure to report discharge from emergency overflows (1) If a relevant undertaker fails to comply with its duties under section 141F— (a) the undertaker commits an offence, and (b) the chief executive of the undertaker commits an offence, subject to subsection (2). (2) It is a defence for the chief executive to prove that they took all reasonable steps to avoid the failure. (3) A person who commits an offence under this section is liable, on summary conviction or conviction on indictment, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 5 years or an unlimited fine, or both.”. This amendment would make it an offence for an undertaker to fail to comply with its duty to report discharges from emergency overflows.”
“I thank the Minister for her comments. I can confirm that we will not push the amendment to a vote. I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn .”
“Any deterrents discouraging people from being involved in some sports are deeply regrettable. The amendment is trying to put the safety of the waters used for aquatic sports on the same basis as those where people bathe. It is time for water companies to take responsibility for ensuring that those waters are safe to use. The amendment sets out a reasonable expectation that a water company must not discharge from an emergency overflow within a one-mile radius of an area used for aquatic sports. The definition of such an area is clearly outlined, and further discretion is provided for the Secretary of State to determine such areas where needed. The consequences for water companies and their chief executives for failure to comply with this duty are set out clearly and are consistent with amendment 4, also tabled by my hon.”
“We have heard reports of increased incidences of illness among participants as a direct and indirect consequence of exposure to pathogens and bacteria from sewage outflows in the waterways where they practise their water sports. That is a significant cause for concern for our rowing, sailing, canoeing and other aquatic sports clubs. Many clubs take their duty of care very seriously indeed. They are having to put in place their own monitoring systems to protect their participating members. Training sessions, competitions and regattas are all facing potential cancellation, and participation in those sports risks becoming less attractive and less available to people. We can all agree that actively participating in sport and physical exercise is so good for not only our physical health, but our mental health.”
“Friend the Member for Beaconsfield —this is sounding like “Groundhog Day”, isn’t it? The amendment has a simple principle: that waters used for aquatic sports should be subject to the same protections as those used for bathing. It establishes that there should be clear consequences for water companies and their chief executives when they fail to comply with a clear duty to protect the waters in which people practise aquatic sports. Aquatic sports are an important part of our sporting heritage in this country, but the impact of overflow discharges into our waterways and rivers is potentially creating an existential risk to some sports clubs up and down the country.”
“(3) If a relevant undertaker fails to comply with its duties under section (1)— (a) the undertaker commits an offence, and (b) the chief executive of the undertaker commits an offence, subject to subsection (5). (4) It is a defence for the chief executive to prove that they took all reasonable steps to avoid the failure. (5) A person who commits an offence under this section is liable, on summary conviction or conviction on indictment, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 5 years or an unlimited fine, or both.” This amendment creates an offence for a sewerage undertaker to use an emergency overflow in an area used for aquatic sports. I will try not to mention teeth in this part of our proceedings, but I cannot promise. It is with great pleasure that I rise to speak in favour of amendment 10, on behalf of my hon.”
“I beg to move amendment 10, in clause 3, page 9, line 38, at end insert— “141H Restriction on the use of emergency overflows in areas used for aquatic sports (1) A sewerage undertaker must not permit a discharge from an emergency overflow in an area used for aquatic sports. (2) In this section, an ‘area used for aquatic sports’ is a section of any body of water connected to and within a one mile radius of— (a) the clubhouse of a rowing club affiliated with British Rowing, (b) a Royal Yacht association training centre or the clubhouse of an affiliate member, and (c) the properties or facilities used by any organisation that the Secretary of State deems to provides water-based sporting activities for the purpose of teaching, training or leisure.”
“I thank the Minister for her comments and for acknowledging the importance of the safety of the waters in which people practise water sports. I also thank the hon. Member for Westmorland and Lonsdale for supporting that concept—we must try to keep these waters safe. I confirm, happily, that we will not be pushing the amendment to a vote. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.”
“Nature recovery was carried out under us, and opportunities to do that with nature-based solutions should be seized on as we move forward.”
“I welcome his comments on the importance of protecting and preserving our water spaces, but very much encourage the Government to facilitate landowners, land managers and farmers to do nature-based solutions to mitigate flood issues. New clause 5 would try to ensure that water companies consider practical, nature-based solutions to flood risk. That would also make water companies try to improve water quality and nature restoration in their catchment areas, so there would be a double win. In Government, we Conservatives set specific, legally binding targets to improve water quality and availability in order to try to reduce nutrient pollution and sediment pollution from agriculture to the water environment. We also set out how to reduce water pollution in our environmental improvement plan.”
“I rise to speak to new clause 5, tabled by His Majesty’s loyal Opposition. We are talking about practical nature-based solutions to flood risk. I welcome the comments made about nature-based solutions, not least from the hon. Member for Westmorland and Lonsdale, who talks passionately about the importance of nature-based solutions for flood mitigation and that side of things. I noted that during the election campaign, he waxed lyrical about Windermere, which is a beautiful part of his constituency. I know that he was an active participant with the leader of his party in water sports as well, although I note that he was a lot more competent at staying on the paddleboard than his leader.”
“If this provision had been law over the last few years, how many offenders would have been caught by it and potentially imprisoned? I realise that that is quite a technical question, but I wonder if the Government have looked at that at all. When we bring in laws, we need to ensure that we are aware of their implications and know how the legal and judicial system can exercise them. However, we have no formal opposition to the clause.”
“The Opposition have no formal objections to the clause, but I do have a couple of clarifying questions. I realise I am getting into territory with which I have no familiarity. I am not a lawyer; I am a veterinary surgeon. When we are changing offences to make them more criminal, there are implications for the courts and for individuals. Although expanding the options available to the court when sentencing offenders who have not followed the rules is welcome, how have the Government ensured that the offences are clear, so that those who commit them face the full punishment if and when required? In terms of modelling the potential impact downstream, what work have the Government done to look at the situation retrospectively?”
“Could the Minister therefore comment, now or in due course, on whether the Government will be continuously updating and monitoring to ensure that monetary penalties are having the desired outcome, that they remain aware of any potential issues and that they can determine whether they need to modulate and change things? Does the Minister support the use of secondary legislation to increase scrutiny? As we have already discussed, the Government have sought to avoid the responsibility of accountability at ministerial and Government level by using statutory instruments for things like Ofwat’s remuneration and governance guidance. Can they not see that a bit of a discrepancy remains? If they are willing to use available powers to make change but not enhance powers, they might need to do that on other issues that we have discussed.”
“As I discussed in previous debates, the Conservative Government saw fit to amend the amount that water companies could be fined for violating the water quality rules. As was also mentioned earlier, Baroness Hayman in the other place highlighted the importance of flexibility in changing rules on the water industry. The Opposition agree that flexibility is important, but for there to be flexibility, there also needs to be consistency, and awareness and monitoring of the issue so that we know exactly what flexibility is needed.”
“I note that clause 6 would grant the Secretary of State and Welsh Ministers the power to introduce secondary legislation concerning fixed and variable monetary penalties, as confirmed by the Regulatory Enforcement and Sanctions Act 2008. It would likewise change the condition of imposing these penalties from “beyond reasonable doubt” to “on the balance of probabilities”. Although His Majesty’s Opposition have no problems with the clause, we believe it would be beneficial for the Minister to make some clarifications to aid the reading of the clause in the future. First, how often does the Minister think that secondary legislation may be required for the fixed monetary penalties? During the last Government’s period in office, we knew that sometimes penalties needed to be adapted to get regulation of our water industries right.”