Kevin Bonavia
MP for Stevenage · Labour · United Kingdom
“I have so often been frustrated when constituents come to me with their problems with a district council, a borough council or the county council, and the councils pass the buck between them, so I am a strong advocate of people having a single unitary council.”
“I congratulate the hon. Member for Tunbridge Wells (Mike Martin) on securing this important debate. We live at a time when our country is being targeted—not just threatened or tested, but actively targeted. We have already heard from many hon. Members that the reality is that hostile states are seeking to harm us every single day.”
“Russia’s grey-zone war is there, and it will not just be Russia in the years ahead—we know that there are others—so how do we take this approach? Before the second world war, many people thought, “Never again.”
“That is fantastic news for the future of NATO. I pay tribute to our Prime Minister for speaking up for NATO. This country has a NATO-first policy, and rightly so. We put our nuclear deterrent and our own taxpayers’ money to the service of NATO.”
“Airbus helps to produce between a quarter and a third of all satellites in space, but the company cannot manufacture the satellites in my town alone; it collaborates with companies in sites across the country, including in Portsmouth—I see my hon. Friend the Member for Portsmouth North (Amanda Martin) is in her place.”
“It is not just about the hardware or about the people we need to recruit to our armed forces. As many hon. Members have said, it is about a whole-of-society approach. My hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Birmingham Selly Oak (Al Carns) talked about national resilience, and this really has to be a national cause.”
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“I am proud of the work that Stevenage have done to involve fan representation in their yearly engagement plan, and for the initiatives of other clubs, such as Blackpool, whose directors I chatted with at the match with Stevenage last week. They explained how they had had a pint with Tangerine fans from across the country to hear their views on how the club should be run. That said, they did get a bit lucky at our place, although I am sure my hon. Friend the Member for Blackpool South (Chris Webb) would agree with me that both our clubs have great foundations and trusts that support their fans. I am also pleased that the amendments the Government have made to the Bill during its passage in the other place actually do strengthen that independence, as I said to the shadow Minister, the hon. Member for Old Bexley and Sidcup (Mr French).”
“The hon. Member will know that the Bill has been improved to make the independent regulator more independent, for example—and there are plenty of examples of improvements in the Bill—by giving the regulator a greater ability to actually regulate the game. Conservative Front Benchers say they support independence and say they want regulation, but many of its Members do not like regulation at all. This is not a party that believes in protecting the national game; it is a party that wants to play party political football with something that should have cross-party consensus. Alongside the financial stability that this Bill will bring to our clubs, we need to respect fans’ involvement in these community assets, so I want to pay tribute to all the clubs that already engage in good faith with their fans.”
“Where councillors like those in Tory-run Hertfordshire fail to deliver that change, our residents can and should choose new ones who can.”
“That is why our county has received £9.3 million for road repairs to fix as many potholes as possible—a marked change from 14 years of Tory austerity. While this extra funding is welcome, the public deserve to know how their councils will use that funding to improve their local roads, so I am pleased the Government are requiring councils to show progress or risk losing 25% of the funding boost. The question on all my residents’ lips now is: can we really trust the failing Conservative-run Hertfordshire county council and the unseen and unbothered Conservative county councillors to use this money properly? We have a new Labour Government facilitating change through these measures, but we also need effective councillors to deliver that change in every street, community, town and village across Hertfordshire and the wider country.”
“Hertfordshire classifies a pothole as being at least 300 mm wide and 50 mm deep, while just next door in Essex, they only have to be 100 mm across, and, further away in Trafford, just 40 mm deep. A road user may think they have hit a pothole in Hertfordshire, but, according to the council, it must just be their imagination. All the while, the council would rather change the definition of a pothole or wait for people to claim for damages, costing the council more than it would to fix potholes for the future in the first place. Thankfully, we are turning a corner. This new Labour Government are on the side of road users in their cars, on the buses and on their bicycles, and they take the issue of fixing potholes as seriously as residents expect them to.”
“I gently suggest that when 14 years of austerity devastate a council’s budget and local Conservatives are in charge of allocating what is left, we end up with a council ranked by The Times last year as the 172nd best performing in the country, with very little left for the road repairs. There is, believe it or not, a third issue: this is the existential one. The Conservative cabinet member for highways at Hertfordshire county council, also a Stevenage councillor, does not even understand what a pothole is. In 2023, he proudly claimed that outstanding road repairs in Hertfordshire were lower than the national average, with only 4% of B and C roads requiring outstanding repairs compared with 6% nationally, which all sounds fairly positive—until it is revealed that we are not comparing like for like.”
“Conservative councillors generally are not proactive in our community, so council officers and the highways team are not getting the quality of reporting on where the issues are and what the priorities should be from the ground up. The second issue is top-down. Fourteen years of funding cuts from successive Conservative Governments to local councils in an era of austerity was cheer-led by Conservative county councillors in Hertfordshire, while their budgets declined and outcomes got worse. Stevenage Conservatives recently claimed that Hertfordshire was the best-run county council in the country.”
“Then there was the young teacher on her bike who hit a pothole, tumbled over and sustained serious injuries, which caused her to miss several weeks of school. The worst thing is that this should all be preventable. Statistics from the online retailer Blackcircles.com show that Hertfordshire had the highest average payout for pothole-related claims in the UK, with an average of £367 per claim in 2023. That amount is significantly higher than the national average of £261 per claim. I can tell you why that is. Our Conservative-run county council in Hertfordshire has totally failed on road repairs, leaving our roads in Stevenage and the villages of Knebworth, Codicote, Datchworth and Aston in a state of total disrepair. The first reason it has failed is bottom-up.”
“I am glad to have this opportunity to address a problem that comes up in almost every street when I am out door-knocking in Stevenage and our villages: ever more potholes and the general disrepair of our roads. When I made a point to someone recently about the importance of tackling potholes, they dismissed it as a trivial matter. I happen to think that it is very serious. It is very serious when I am told by a parent of a low-income family, just about getting by, that the pothole she had reported to her Conservative county councillor time and again had not been fixed and ended up causing hundreds of pounds of damage to her vehicle. It is simply not an option for her to pay for it, so the family has to take significant time out of their week to make a claim.”
“Mobile phone theft is a widespread concern in my constituency. Between 2019 and 2024, the spate of mobile phone thefts has risen by 22.3%. Can my hon. Friend reassure my constituents that this Government will take all steps to ensure their safety?”
“In my constituency of Stevenage, we have an excellent charity called SADA—Survivors Against Domestic Abuse. Such charities rely on multi-agency working to deliver essential services to those affected by domestic abuse. How are the Government continuing to support organisations in working closely together to continue to provide effective services to those who have suffered domestic abuse?”
“That is why I am so pleased that the Government have indicated their intention to do so, most recently in December with the Prime Minister’s announcement that the Foreign Secretary will convene an inaugural meeting to discuss next steps with partners. I end by asking whether the Minister can provide us with an update on when the meeting in London will take place and on which partners will be involved. I also ask what plans the Government have to use next week’s G7 Foreign Ministers meeting in Canada to raise the establishment of an international fund for Israeli-Palestinian peace. It is unquestionable that this summit is an opportunity to make the real progress that I believe only a Labour Government can make in these circumstances.”
“Indeed, the precedent does not just show that the UK can take a leading role in the Israeli-Palestinian peace process, but that a Labour Government are particularly well placed to do so. It was Jonathan Powell, who was the Downing Street chief of staff in the 1990s and is now the Prime Minister’s national security adviser, who led the Good Friday agreement talks. Because of its investment in civil society at a moment when peace seemed distant, he characterised the International Fund for Ireland as “the great unsung hero of the peace process”. Today, we have an opportunity to play a similar role in a similarly intractable conflict.”
“In the mid-1980s, when a political peace process was non-existent, the international community decided to intervene at the grassroots level with the International Fund for Ireland. Expert effort was put into investing in civil society to create the social, economic and political foundations for peace. Twelve years later, the landscape in Northern Ireland was transformed, with genuine constituencies for peace. That allowed the negotiation of the Good Friday agreement. That model is one of the areas of peacebuilding in which we in the UK have unparalleled experience. Today, thanks to the tireless work of the Alliance for Middle East Peace, there is cross-party support for an international fund for Israeli-Palestinian peace.”
“It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Twigg. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Mansfield (Steve Yemm) on securing this debate. He alluded to precedents and I want to talk about one, because the UK has been a trailblazer for peacebuilding in complex conflicts around the world, but most notably in Northern Ireland. The attention of the world has naturally been drawn to the destruction and the suffering of the peoples of both Palestine and Israel since the devastating Hamas attacks and throughout the subsequent war. I believe that the UK has a unique contribution to make in the area of civil society and people-to-people peacebuilding in Israel and Palestine.”
“The covid inquiry found that years of under-investment under the Conservatives meant that our health services were already struggling to cope even before covid struck, with waiting lists rising years before the pandemic. Does my right hon. Friend agree that investing in our NHS and tackling the terrible delays that patients, including many of my constituents in Stevenage, experience in receiving treatment are vital to improving our country’s resilience?”
“Q2. I commend the Prime Minister for the decisive leadership that he has shown in Europe and at home to bolster our collective security. The £13.4 billion increase in defence spending has been very much welcomed in my constituency. Will the Prime Minister outline how that increase in defence spending will boost jobs and growth in places such as Stevenage, and will he join me in visiting some of my constituency’s businesses?”
“In my constituency, Stevenage borough council is working to secure jobs and opportunity, with town centre regeneration under way and over 590 council homes delivered, but outdated infrastructure is holding back growth. Businesses have been clear with me that upgrading Stevenage station gateway would unlock growth, with the prospect of 15,000 jobs being delivered and a £1.5 billion benefit to the economy each year. Will my right hon. Friend meet me to discuss how we can make the most of this opportunity to unlock economic growth through more infrastructure investment?”
“My right hon. and learned Friend the Prime Minister is absolutely right to say that this is a generational moment for this country’s security. I pay tribute to this generation’s armed forces and all those who work in the defence sector, including in Stevenage, where they are refitting the Storm Shadows for use by Ukraine for its security and our security. Does my right hon. and learned Friend agree that the increase in defence spending he has announced today will, done properly, also help the wider economy?”
“Today, we pay tribute to the people of Ukraine fighting not only for their own freedom but for the freedom of all Europe. The Foreign Secretary said that we must learn from history. Over 80 years ago in Munich, this country and others talked away the future of Czechoslovakia without it being there and stripped it of its vital resources; we all know the tragic consequences. Today, there can be no peace without Ukraine, and there can be no enduring peace without the security that this country and other NATO allies can give to it.”
“As seems to be the consensus of the House, our support for Ukraine must remain unwavering in the face of Putin’s war of nationalist aggression. I am proud that this country retrofits Storm Shadow missiles in my constituency. With an increasingly unstable geopolitical situation, does the Secretary of State agree that full co-operation with our NATO allies to defend Ukraine and guarantee the security of Europe continues to be integral in the defence of our own country?”
“The wider context of the issue before us today is that this country is at the forefront of the global life sciences sector, of which there are clusters across the UK. In my constituency of Stevenage, which was the first post-war new town in the Oxford-Cambridge corridor, we have GlaxoSmithKline, Autolus, and the Cell and Gene Therapy Catapult. Will my hon. Friend tell the House how this Government are committed to spreading growth in the life sciences sector across the whole country, and thank all our hard-working scientists?”
“I very much welcome this statement. As the hon. Member for Epsom and Ewell (Helen Maguire) said, we need SMEs to support our defence sector. One of the key challenges facing our defence sector, as Ukraine has shown, is that we need to speed up the pace of innovation in this new era facing defence. In Stevenage, we have many excellent SMEs supporting our local defence primes, Airbus and MBDA. Will my right hon. Friend show her support for what SMEs are doing and support them in the future?”
“Between July 2023 and 2024, over 150 cyber-incidents were reported by the local government sector in the UK. Last year, the average ransom demand from a ransomware attack was over £2.2 million. As the local government sector does not pay ransoms, the average cost to our councils of recovering from a ransomware attack is approximately £12 million. Will my right hon. Friend therefore make additional support available to local authorities to enhance their cyber-security and protect local services for constituents such as mine in Stevenage?”
“I thank the Minister for her response. Last year, in my constituency, the Stevenage Football Club Foundation delivered more than 9,000 hours of activity in grassroots sports and engaged over 15,000 participants, generating nearly £10.7 million-worth of social value. This did not happen only in my constituency. Last year, the 72 English Football League community club organisations delivered more than £1.2 billion-worth of social value across this country. Will the Minister commit to supporting local community club organisations, such as the Stevenage FC Foundation, in engaging local people and directly supporting communities?”
“I welcome the Secretary of State to her place. In my first public meeting after my election, residents in Knebworth called for more fast train services. We got some, but there has been poor reliability. Will she meet me to discuss those issues?”
“A key ingredient of economic growth has to be responsible government. People in Stevenage and across the country are still paying the price for 14 years of irresponsible government—the terrible decisions, the mini-Budget—and now we have a party in opposition that still does not get it. Opposition Members responded to this party’s Budget by saying that they accepted the improvement in public services, but they would not say how they would pay for it. Can my right hon. Friend assure us that this Administration will be committed to responsible government for the rest of the parliamentary term?”
“T5. I welcome the clean power plan, which the Government published last week, which lays out the route to energy security and lower bills. Will my right hon. Friend provide more detail on how our new national champion, Great British Energy, which is backed by the overwhelming majority of the public in Stevenage and elsewhere, will form part of this new plan?”
“Changes to the employment allowance mean that the Office for Budget Responsibility expects that 250,000 employers will gain and an additional 820,000 will see no change. We have also committed to provide support for public sector employers for additional employer cost. This also means that, unlike the previous Government, who gave us the highest tax burden since the second world war, Labour are able not to ask for a penny more out of workers’ pay packets. While we must listen to the genuine concerns from businesses, which, like the rest of society, are feeling the brunt of 14 years of Tory austerity and decline, I am in no doubt that these decisions are the right and necessary ones that will fix the foundations of our economy and unlock the funding to rebuild our public services.”
“And I will keep it coming until the right hon. Gentleman gets the message. After 14 years of working people footing the Bill, this Government are choosing to spread the load in as fair a way as possible. In the spirit of building an economy driven by collaboration between productive workers and thriving businesses, a balance has to be struck. While we are asking employers to contribute more, this does of course come with protections for small businesses. While employer national insurance contributions will increase by 1.2%, this Government are choosing to protect the smallest businesses by increasing the employment allowance to £10,500 and expanding this to all eligible employers. Let us therefore stop the politically expedient outrage and check the real-life impact.”
“That means finding money, and if it is not through this measure, would they tax working people or make another black hole? We have to face down the reality of these choices for what they are. It is overwhelmingly clear that the shadow Cabinet, who were exiled into opposition this summer, have not learned a single thing. They have made £6.7 billion in unfunded spending commitments in just four weeks. At least we can be grateful that they are not in the position to do more damage at the moment. Turning to what the funds raised from this measure will do, are the Opposition opposed to investing an extra £25.6 billion to fix the foundations of our NHS or cutting waiting times with 40,000 extra elective appointments a week?”
“I totally agree with my hon. Friend that this Government are supporting people across the whole country, including Scotland today, and I really hope the Scottish Government use the money they have been given well. Returning to the Opposition motion, were they also opposed to our country being left a £22 billion black hole by the last Government? Where they also opposed to the disastrous Liz Truss mini-Budget, which included £45 billion of unfunded tax cuts, and which shocked the markets, crashed the pound and skyrocketed mortgage rates? Were they also opposed to the last Government’s spring Budget, which included myriad damaging unfunded promises in an attempt to flash the cash at the public ahead of an election? If they do now oppose all the above, they must agree with me that we have to restore economic stability by funding our pledges.”
“Today we have a Labour Government. The country voted against fantasy economics in July, and today I will vote against it too.”
“Businesses can only have the confidence to invest in the UK if we bring stability to the economy, put money into the pockets of customers and develop thriving public services for the workforce that will in turn improve productivity for businesses. Business confidence was demonstrated by the record-breaking £63 billion in investment secured for the UK economy at the international investment summit. Under Labour, Britain is open for business. Today, the Conservative Opposition are asking us to pretend that we can grow our economy and rebuild our public services without saying how it would all be paid for. This Tory Opposition, with their motion today, show that they have learned nothing from 14 years of Tory fantasy economics. The shadow Chancellor brought up fantasy economics, and his party delivered that for 14 years in government.”
“I say to all Members of this House that people have to see these measures in the round. This Budget will support all our businesses in the long run. Are the Opposition now opposed to protecting the triple lock, increasing carer’s allowance, freezing fuel duty, paying workers properly and supporting local councils? Are they opposed to boosting education funding by £6.7 billion and hiring 6,500 extra teachers, who our children desperately need to secure their future? If they are opposed to those things, they are not listening to the British public who, in my constituency of Stevenage and in hundreds of other seats, voted at the last election for a change from years of Conservative chaos. Change with Labour will bring a decade of national renewal to fix our public services from the ground up.”
“Mark is here today, and he argues that recording the number of children in the household when a death is registered could help thousands of bereaved children and ensure that services can better plan, reach out to families and offer much-needed support. Mark is working hard to make sure that no child faces the isolation he did after such devastation, which is hard for any of us to fathom even as adults. Setting aside the emotional aspect of the argument, I support the practicalities of the proposal. From service delivery to charities, local councils and schools, how can anybody work to tackle the consequences of childhood bereavement if no one knows where it is occurring in the first place?”
“Without support, unresolved grief in young people can lead to an increased risk of youth offending, family breakdown, underachievement in education and employment and long-term mental health conditions.” I want to thank Winston’s Wish and its inspiring ambassador, Mark Lemon, for the work that they have done submitting the petition and campaigning for it over the years. One of the fundamental reasons why I am in favour of it is Mark’s own personal story, which I am deeply grateful to be able to share on his behalf today. At age 12, Mark experienced the horrific murder of his father. With nothing registered and no real support around at the time, Mark received no help to cope with that traumatic incident or adjust to the massive impact that the loss had on his life until his 20s.”
“That is exactly what I hope to do today in this debate. First, I would like to set out the two matters at hand before I make the case for each. Crucial in all of this is that both petitions go hand in hand in with the same diagnosis and cure, which I will describe. I will delve into it further towards the end of my speech. I want to start with the petition entitled, “Record the number of bereaved children to ensure they are supported”. That might not be something we would consider every day, but currently we do not know how many bereaved children there are in the UK right now. The petition argues: “If we don’t know the true scale of childhood bereavement, the services that exist to help are unable to proactively offer the support that children and their families need to cope with their grief.”
“I beg to move, That this House has considered e-petitions 636718 and 624185 relating to children and bereavement. It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mrs Harris. This is my first time opening a debate as a new member of the Petitions Committee; I am delighted to speak to the two incredibly important petitions. Before I begin, I want to thank the House of Commons staff for enabling me to engage proactively with the petitioners, charities, advocates, representatives and supporters involved in both petitions. I feel privileged to stand here today as an advocate for the campaigners who have worked tirelessly for years to get results on these vital matters. This debate takes place during National Grief Awareness week, which is run by the Good Grief Trust, who chose this year’s theme: shine a light.”
“Children must be provided with the skills to comprehend loss and to prepare for the emotions and feelings that accompany a bereavement which at some point, we all have to face.” I commend the research, testimony and briefings from the childhood bereavement network and the National Children’s Bureau, which have compelled me, emotionally and logically, to support these changes. I also want to highlight the work of the petition creator, John Adams, past president of the National Association of Funeral Directors, whose membership includes more than 4,000 funeral homes. He has used his story of grief as a young child as a motivator to call for these changes, which will help all other children in need.”
“It states that, under compulsory relationships education, schools should be required to provide age-appropriate education to help children understand death as a part of life: “Talking about death can be helpful for children and issues of bereavement should be compulsory learning for children in preparation for life as an adult. Children are taught how life begins through the national curriculum and similarly we should not hide from equipping children with the skills to comprehend death.”
“If enacted, what support and training could be given to registrars so they can direct families who register bereaved children towards charities and bodies that can help? The previous Government essentially said, “We won’t do this, because it is not the done thing,” and pointed people towards the support that schools and charities can give. Let us make it the done thing, because it would help schools and charities to do their jobs in the first place. The second, and equally important, petition argues that we should add content on death, dying and bereavement to the national curriculum.”
“Winston’s Wish, the child bereavement charity, has regular get-togethers with young people so they can share their stories of grief with one another. Imagine how that data could transform where it allocates its resources, time and effort. It could be transformational for our kids. From speaking to colleagues across the House, including the hon. Member for Edinburgh West (Christine Jardine), who brought a debate on this subject to Westminster Hall earlier this year, it is clear that such a move could attract cross-party consensus. I therefore ask my hon. Friend the Minister what legislation would be needed to enact the change permitting registrars to collect data on the number of bereaved children at the point of registering the death.”
“I thank the hon. Member for her intervention. Obviously, there are things that can be done through law. There are things that are done through good practice and guidelines, and I am sure we will hear from my hon. Friend the Minister in due course as to what can be done. If it needs legislation I am sure she will consider that, but we should do all that we can to encourage the Government to take whatever steps they can to help achieve the aims of the petitions. On the first petition about collecting data, a simple change would be to support registrars to collect the data when a death is registered while protecting the anonymity and data of the family. That seems achievable without being overly invasive. After all, it would simply be an option, and it would indicate where bodies need to target their support.”
“I ask the Government, what is the latest guidance following a recent curriculum review? Can bereavement education be included if that is not already the case? The previous Government left the matter up for review, stating that it could be taught in school if schools wanted that. No more “could”; let us move to “should”, or even “must”. I want to end where I started. The matters in the two petitions are inherently linked, one perfectly complementing the other. With a register for who needs support, alongside the guarantee of intervention in our schools, we will be making an active choice to see all the invisible bereaved children in the UK today. Let us turn isolation into embrace, and do whatever is possible to enshrine both petitions in law and practice as best as we can.”
“Let us stop the postcode lottery and bring grief education into the school curriculum. That will guarantee that at least one effort is made with every child across the country to break the stigma of bereavement. It will foster healthy discussions about what has happened and what is to come, and make those affected feel that they have a network of support they can access safely. I do not believe bereavement education would add a burden to already pressurised schools and staff, because as I have learned in the past few weeks, resources from all the organisations I have spoken with on the petition are ready to do the job. We must be proactive, not reactive. We should not take the risk that a single child in 10 years’ time will tell a story like Mark or John’s.”
“Not everyone has access to a phenomenal organisation such as Winston’s Wish or Stand-by-me in my constituency of Stevenage—a local childhood bereavement service that launched a “Contact-me” bereavement programme, which offers a whole-school approach to supporting bereaved students. Stand-by-me now has children who have experienced bereavement as young ambassadors. For example, Evie received support from the charity and has helped three other children in her class with similar experiences. There is nothing like the peer-to-peer support of a person who helps somebody they know who feels the same way as them. I thank Evie and the many other children like her who support others in the same situation, but not everyone has a network of family and friends who can step up and find out how to get the right help.”
“I wholeheartedly agree, and I commend John and others who have used their experience to help other people. There is nothing better than a person’s own experience for reaching out and supporting people. Every day, an average of 111 children in the UK lose a parent. After charities, schools, local authorities and family members and friends have stepped in, how many of those children fall through the net and have no one to talk to or cope with? Our job is to level the playing field. Not everyone has a fantastic teacher who goes the extra mile, working within parameters of the curriculum, which could allow the teaching of bereavement through links to other topics, such as the family. Not everyone attends a school that has a bereavement policy or a pastoral support team that identifies and supports bereaved children.”
“As she said, the state, in all its forms, is a corporate parent. I also thank the other Members who spoke. We heard from my hon. Friend the Member for Ashford (Sojan Joseph) and the shadow Minister, the hon. Member for Harborough, Oadby and Wigston (Neil O'Brien), whose cross-party approach I appreciated. I thank the Minister for having such an open mind on this issue and for confirming that the Government will take forward what we have heard today in both the cross-departmental working group and her own Department. I will monitor that work and will help the petitioners to do that too. Finally, I thank the petitioners themselves. They have put this issue on the agenda, and we are all grateful to them for doing so. As Members of Parliament, we will do what we can to keep it there. Question put and agreed to.”
“I was not going to mention my own personal experience, but hearing from others today reminded me of what happened 26 years ago, when I lost my father to throat cancer when I was 20. At the time, I had a younger brother in his teens and a mother who had to cope for the family. This debate made me think, “What if I had the support that many people have today, and what if that was there for everyone?”, so I am grateful to hon. Members for sharing their experiences. How many hundreds of thousands of experiences like those are out there? I also thank my hon. Friend the Member for Walthamstow (Ms Creasy) for sharing the experiences that MPs hear in their surgeries all the time. They were very harrowing, and we must take them as best we can, but we must learn from them and think about how we can join things up.”