Sir Desmond Swayne
MP for New Forest West · Conservative · United Kingdom
“Just how confident is the Minister that this was not a cyber-attack? How confident is he of the resilience of the system in the event of such an attack, and how confident is he in the willingness and ability of the Government to retaliate in the event of such an attack, as the best form of deterrence?”
“I join that long list of UK Ministers who have raised, at the very highest level in Israel, the most egregious practices in the west bank, designed specifically to prevent a two-state solution, only for Israeli policy to double down. Accordingly, I congratulate the Secretary of State.”
“I am delighted by the reprieve—the New Forest was to be split, and part of it swallowed by Southampton. Will the Secretary of State accept my representation that we want the integrity of the New Forest to remain, and the last thing we want is for it all to be swallowed by Southampton?”
“To address one of the points made by my right hon. Friend the Member for South Holland and The Deepings, that takes account of the fact that there may be different levels of need in different areas.”
“Yes, essentially today we are putting these services on a statutory footing. Of course subsequent Governments can change statutes, but this Bill makes it an explicit decision of this House and Parliament, rather than a fiat by Government decision.”
“I will address exactly that point shortly. If a child is not developing properly and is not sleeping, feeding or communicating, parents need to know that they have somewhere to turn.”
The complete record
Every one of 1,773 lines we hold for Sir Desmond Swayne, in date order, each linked to its source. Free to read, in full, without an account. Page 30 of 36.
“Does the Chief Secretary accept a representation from me that, by the Treasury’s own figures, the national debt is set to double by 2012, to £1 trillion? Will she confirm that, for next year, Government borrowing as a proportion of our national income will be higher than when Denis Healey went to the International Monetary Fund?”
“The 1988 White Paper said: “The objective of Official Secrets legislation is not to enforce Crown Service discipline—that is not a matter for the criminal law”. When Lord Hurd presented the Bill to the House, he said: “We ask the House today to agree in principle that the criminal law should be prised away from the great bulk of official information.” —[ Official Report , 21 December 1988; Vol. 144, c. 460.] Why has that changed under Labour?”
“This does seem to be an enormously elastic offence. I believe that the most recent successful prosecution was that of a female police officer who was operating on the side as a prostitute. Will the Secretary of State comment on the case of Sally Murrer last week? That prosecution failed, the upshot of which appears to be that journalists are immune, as are their sources.”
“T3. Given that savings of £1.3 billion are to be made over two years, possibly involving as many as 10,000 redundancies in his Department, is the Lord Chancellor not a little embarrassed about the bill of £133 million for the refurbishment of the Department’s offices in Petty France?”
“T2. Why has the Secretary of State chosen this particularly difficult time to hit the least financially sophisticated and our most vulnerable with his swingeing reduction in the period over which pension credit can be backdated?”
“In 1991, HR Wallingford was commissioned by the Lymington harbour authority to investigate the erosion consequent on the existing Wightlink ferry service between Lymington and Yarmouth. The company reported the extent of the erosion and predicted that it would continue, as has now transpired. The erosion had been noticed at the time by the then harbour master, and I mention in passing that it strikes me as extraordinary that the regulators were prepared to live with that, rather than take action to deal with it. Leaving that aside, a new horror has now arisen. Wightlink is to replace the two ferries of the existing service with three, much bigger ones. The new ferries— It being Seven o'clock, the motion for the Adjournment of the House lapsed, without Question put. Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn. —[Mr.”
“Through you, Madam Deputy Speaker, I thank Mr. Speaker for allowing me this opportunity to bring the question of the Lymington river to the attention of the House almost a year after I first raised it. Complex technical and legal matters are involved, so to dispose of the business in the time available, there will have to be a measure of simplification. The mouth of the Lymington river is bounded by the Solent marine conservation area, as designated by the habitats directive. The New Forest district council coastal protection team believes that, at the current rate of erosion, the salt marshes that constitute the special conservation area will not survive another generation.”
“A planning application therefore had to be made, and that application will be determined by New Forest district council and the Marine and Fisheries Agency. Those bodies will be guided in their determination by Natural England, based on whether there will be any adverse impact on the special area of conservation. The Marine and Fisheries Agency decided that an appropriate assessment must take place to establish whether there will be an adverse impact.”
“The new ferries have almost 76 per cent. more water displacement, and the jet thrusters used to propel them have almost 200 per cent. more horsepower thrust. Those jet thrusters—quite different from the conventional screw propulsion systems—are largely directed at the bed of the river, gouging it up and leaving the spoil to have to be dredged and dumped out by the Needles. In addition, they have 84 per cent. more windage. Windage is a complicated term, but essentially it means that for a significant amount of the time, those thrusters are pointed directly at the banks of the salt marshes, leading to a much faster rate of erosion. To implement the new ferries, Wightlink believed that shore works would be required so that they could be berthed and loaded.”
“938W.] The Minister has left the door ajar; I want him to open it and go through it, because the situation has changed dramatically. On Monday, the Lymington harbour commissioners were informed by Wightlink that it no longer requires the shore works to which the appropriate assessment was attached. Furthermore, it has judged that the ferries are safe to operate, notwithstanding the fact that Lymington harbour commissioners are still conducting the sea trials. Wightlink has therefore unilaterally declared that it will implement the new service in December, without asking permission from anyone.”
“As far as I am aware, the old ferries have a long life ahead of them—at least another 13 years. For all those reasons, I believe that a full environmental impact assessment is a better way forward than an appropriate assessment. In that, I am supported by New Forest district council, the elected local authority. I thank the Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, the hon. Member for Ogmore (Huw Irranca-Davies) for at least keeping the door open to the possibility of an environmental impact assessment. In his written answer to me of 13 October, he said that “a number of related environmental issues need to be considered, potentially with an environmental impact assessment.” —[ Official Report , 13 October 2008; Vol. 480, c.”
“It seems to me that Natural England is measuring “adverse impact” as incremental, additional damage—the extra damage of the new ferries, over and above that caused by the existing ferries. That runs counter to both the spirit and the letter of the regulations. The existing ferry service is accountable to article 2.2 of the habitats directive, which requires maintenance and restoration of a favourable conservation environment. I do not believe that that is happening, although it is supposed to be happening now, while the existing ferry service is in place. The new ferries constitute a plan or project under regulation 48 of the Conservation (Natural Habitats, &c.) Regulations 1994. As such, they need to be judged in their own terms, and not against the old ferries, which do not constitute part of that plan or project.”
“The collection of data for the appropriate assessment is being carried out by the consultants BMT SeaTech, under the supervision of the Lymington harbour commission in its attempt to design the safety parameters in which the ferries can operate. However, hydraulic measurements to establish safety are wholly different from the hydraulic measurements that are needed to establish whether there is an adverse environmental impact. I was never persuaded that the right measurements would be taken, never mind how those measurements would be interpreted. My third reason for being suspicious of the appropriate assessment arises from the way in which Natural England decided to interpret the regulations.”
“I thank my hon. Friend for that intervention, although I disagree with that analysis. I shall explain why shortly. I made it clear from the start that, for a number of reasons, I was not satisfied with the appropriate assessment. First, it excludes from the equation important areas of policy that will be affected, not least the leisure yachting industry in Lymington, which has a huge impact on the economy of Lymington, and the implications for traffic through the New Forest national park consequent on the greater capacity of the new ferries. In addition, under the appropriate assessment, there would be no public consultation.”
“I therefore believe that we should call its bluff. Wightlink is owned by Macquarie, which has form. It has gained the most aggressive reputation for the way in which—how can I put it charitably, Madam Deputy Speaker?—it pursues the interests of its shareholders with a singular vigour, and it is time for Ministers to call Macquarie to order. I believe that, had there been a marine Bill, we would never have been in this position, and I hope that there will be a marine Bill in the Queen’s Speech, because it will certainly have my support. We do not have a marine Bill, and we will not get one in time for Lymington, but I believe that, under existing regulations, Ministers have the power to act, and I am here tonight to ask them to do so.”
“I am not anti-ferry, and I want there to be a thriving ferry service between the ports of Lymington and Yarmouth, because it is vital to my constituents and to those of my hon. Friend. But a lot of fear has been floating about, and people have been saying that Wightlink has made it known that it does not intend to renew the safety licences of the existing ferries after next spring—in other words, Wightlink has said, “There won’t be a ferry service unless you accept these new ferries.” It has now gone further, effectively saying, “It doesn’t matter what you do; we’re going to implement the new ferries.” The Lymington to Yarmouth route is a profitable monopoly. Wightlink has invested a significant sum in the project, and I just do not believe that there is any prospect of Wightlink walking away from it.”
“Now that the appropriate assessment option seems to have disappeared, I should like him to initiate a full environmental impact assessment. Notwithstanding the fact that there are now to be no shore works, I have no doubt that the option of the environmental impact assessment remains with him, because Natural England’s advice—based on the legal advice that it was given—was that Wightlink proposes a plan or a project, and the European Commission is clear in its advice about the interpretation of the habitats directive. It says: “The term ‘project’ should be given a broad interpretation to include both the construction works and other interventions in the natural environment”, of which this is most definitely one.”
“The Act was put in place to ensure that shipping could continue to trade after the great storms that had washed away so many of our harbours. Ships had moved further up river because of the disappearance of the harbours, and many people were denying the ships access. I have been briefed on legal advice to the effect that under the existing ferry arrangements, Wightlink is responsible for some 22,500 ferry movements a year, which stands well outside the parameters of the 1847 Act. If Ministers were prepared to take the matter to court, the Act would be overturned in respect of the port of Lymington, as it has been for other ports, under existing case law. That is the first action that I ask the Minister to take. The second action is on the environmental impact assessment.”
“I understand that; I just happen to disagree with it, as will now unfold. Wightlink will pursue the option that I mentioned without seeking permission from anyone. I ask the Minister to perform two actions. First, will he make contact with his ministerial colleagues in the Department for Transport to establish fully the legality of what Wightlink is proposing to do, and what the powers of the Lymington harbour commissioners are? If they do not have the power to overrule Wightlink, there does not seem much point in having harbour commissioners. To come back to a piece of legislation to which my hon. Friend the Member for Isle of Wight (Mr. Turner) drew my attention, my understanding is that Wightlink believes that its absolute right to use the ports is consequent on the Harbours, Docks and Piers Clauses Act 1847.”
“I do not complain that the Minister is dwelling on the appropriate assessment, as I did so myself. However, is he confident that the appropriate assessment will be completed? It is tied to the application for the shore works. Wightlink is now saying, “We don’t need the shore works and we’re going to start next month without them.””
“T6. Given the excellent advice that the Chairman of the Children, Schools and Families Committee, the hon. Member for Huddersfield (Mr. Sheerman), gave earlier, will the Minister tell us exactly what she is going to do to improve the statementing process so that parents believe that it is on their side, rather than designed to defeat them? In doing so, will she avoid the words “best practice”, “facilitator” and “engaging”, which she used earlier? She should just tell us what she is going to do.”
“T2. In his letter of 7 October, Lord Turner, the chairman of the Committee on Climate Change, said that if there was to be any prospect of our meeting the target on emissions, the decarbonisation of electricity generation had to start now. Today, we have had boasts from those on the Treasury Bench about the great leap forward in generation by 2015, which is almost wholly dependent on fossil fuels. Either Lord Turner is wrong and the Minister is right, or it is the other way around. Which is it?”
“Is the difficulty not so much that the Committee wants to hide its deliberations on so many European documents behind a cloak of secrecy, but that it wants to give the impression that there are no such deliberations? Huge reams of material go through entirely unscrutinised and on the nod, and if people saw that in public, they would never stand for it.”
“T4. At a recent open day at Lympstone, the parents of young men who are shortly to emerge as fully fledged Royal Marines were advised by a senior officer to purchase a piece of equipment—body armour—of a better, more suitable specification than what is currently issued. If senior officers consider equipment important enough for parents to buy it for their sons, should not quartermasters be in a position to issue it? In answering that question, will the Secretary of State ensure that no aspersions are cast on the senior officer involved?”
“May we have a statement on how aspects of sharia law are being introduced pre-trial in some civil courts? Those are profound changes with enormous implications. Many of our constituents find it absolutely extraordinary that this is happening without any parliamentary scrutiny at all.”
“Further to that point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. Is not the proper answer to the question, “Can we have a debate?”, either yes or no; we can or we cannot? If the Leader of the House were to do that rather than attempt to have the debate now, in which she always gets the last word, the business of the House would be more expeditiously dealt with?”
“T8. Before someone can be dispatched on a hospital visit or even made to attend a weapons awareness workshop, they have to be caught. What is the Home Secretary doing to ensure that police use more robustly the powers to search that they already have?”
“I voted for an elected second Chamber, but I am struggling to remember quite why. The Lord Chancellor has sought to detain us with his statement notwithstanding the fact that the existing arrangements seem to be working pretty well and that there is no prospect of consensus between the two Chambers. As for the right hon. Gentleman’s assurance that he is going to put the proposals in his manifesto, he will recall that he put a commitment to have a referendum on the European constitution in his previous manifesto.”
“T6. If GP-led health centres are in the interests of patients, does not the Secretary of State believe that primary care trusts will procure them anyway? Why is he running the show like a command economy and requiring 121 PCTs outside London to procure them?”
“In the excellent performance by my hon. Friend the Member for Arundel and South Downs (Nick Herbert), he referred to an instruction, so will the Lord Chancellor confirm that it is genuine, and that it is indeed the case that days on the run can be counted as contributing to the number of days in custody? If that is the case, is it possible that if a miscreant were on the run for long enough, they might actually be eligible for compensation for having been detained beyond the length of their sentence?”
“In June of last year, the estimate was that during the end of custody licence scheme’s first year of operation, there would be 25,500 releases. So far, there have been 26,000, and the estimate is that by the end of the scheme’s first year of operation, the number will be 31,000. Can the Lord High Chancellor explain the gap?”
“My hon. Friend brings to our attention a remarkable piece of information, and it is a great shame that the hon. Member for Islington, South and Finsbury (Emily Thornberry) is not present to hear it, as, against all the conventions of this House, she has made her speech and pushed off.”
“May I ask my hon. Friend to be careful in the language that he uses? A great many euphemisms have been used in the debate, including babies being referred to as “foetuses” and abortions being referred to as “terminations”. Does he recall that, when the Russians finally admitted to having downed the Korean jumbo jet, they said that they had terminated it, rather than having shot it down? Is it not grotesque that “family planning” is used as a euphemism for abortion in this country?”
“My hon. Friend the Member for Beverley and Holderness (Mr. Stuart) reported the chief inspector’s finding that standards have stalled. Whom does the Secretary of State blame for that? Is it the pupils or teachers? Is it himself? Or could it be his favourite scapegoat at the moment for everything that has gone wrong—the right hon. Member for Birkenhead (Mr. Field)?”
“The Secretary-General’s most recent report states that in, one month alone, the air raids of the Government of Sudan have killed 200 civilians and displaced 10,000. Their impounding of vital equipment, blocking of the deployment of contingents and withholding permissions for 15 helicopters have resulted in less than a quarter of the United Nations-African Union Mission in Darfur forces being deployed. Is it not time that we had a serious review of the sanctions regime?”
“I agree with my hon. Friend, but is not there a danger that less tolerant minority faiths will perceive a blasphemy law as something to which they aspire to protect the less tolerant version of their faith?”
“Notwithstanding the millions of pounds that the Minister boasts of having distributed, is she aware of the disaster being visited on communities, particularly those on the western edges of counties, as county councils attempt to balance the interests of the council charge payer with the traveller and reduce the service in order to be able to afford concessionary fares? Does she realise that it is a fat lot of use having a free bus pass if there is no bus to travel on as a result? Does she know that although 11 million passes have been issued, there are hardly any buses that can process them?”
“T5. In the 1998 Command Paper “Modern local government: in touch with the people”, the Government stated: “The council tax is working well as a local tax. It has been widely accepted and is generally very well understood.”Does the Secretary of State accept that that is no longer true? Who does she think is responsible?”
“I look forward to reading the three written statements. The Secretary of State has said that by defending A-levels one is committed to excellence for only a few. Is he seriously telling us that after 11 years of Labour Governments, only a few are capable of taking on A-level study?”
“Is there any prospect of the Minister meeting Lymington river users, who are deeply concerned about the decision to have only an appropriate assessment, rather than a full environmental assessment, of Wightlink’s plans for new ferries?”
“I understand that English Heritage made a very strong recommendation that Ibsley control tower should be listed. Given that the Minister is accountable to Parliament, will she give us a detailed explanation of why the Secretary of State chose to overrule that recommendation?”
“Will the bank continue to take deposits in Guernsey—deposits that will benefit from the Government’s guarantee, but the interest on which will not be liable to United Kingdom tax?”
“The comparison with Maastricht simply will not wash. No party went to the general election that preceded the ratification of the Maastricht treaty, after it was signed, promising the electorate a referendum, as the Foreign Secretary’s party did before the previous election.”
“Although the hon. Lady may be off message, as the Minister might say, she is making a powerful case for the amendment of the hon. Member for Glasgow, South-West (Mr. Davidson).”
“The hon. Gentleman should be aware that the amendments concern the institutional arrangements. In that respect, we are talking about a one-way street, on the basis of the occupied field—the acquis. It cannot but be a one-way street.”
“When the A-level courses beginning in September are reduced from six modules to four, is it the intention of Ministers that students should study the four modules more rigorously, or simply compensate by doing additional A-levels? Will that disadvantage students who are now in the lower sixth form year, who go on a gap year, and find themselves competing for university entry against fellows with more A-levels?”
“The weakness of the Minister’s argument is that even if he is right about speaking with 27 voices, that has been achieved without the treaty. That completely undermines the case that he is making.”
“My hon. Friend will recall that when the then Foreign Secretary, the right hon. Member for Blackburn (Mr. Straw), came to give a rather phlegmatic explanation of why the Government had reversed their position from opposing a referendum to favouring one on the previous treaty, he said that it was because there was going to be a permanent president of the Council. It was clearly a matter of importance to him.”
“Mr. Speaker has informed me that he has not selected my amendment for debate; might we not, in a similar way, write to our constituents and tell them that unfortunately their letter was not one of those selected for reply?”
“Will the Leader of the House arrange for, at the very least, a written statement from the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs on the reappointment, or otherwise, of the official verderer of the New Forest, as my hon. Friend the Member for New Forest, East (Dr. Lewis) and I fear that there has been some skulduggery?”