Sir Desmond Swayne
MP for New Forest West · Conservative · United Kingdom
“Just how confident is the Minister that this was not a cyber-attack? How confident is he of the resilience of the system in the event of such an attack, and how confident is he in the willingness and ability of the Government to retaliate in the event of such an attack, as the best form of deterrence?”
“I join that long list of UK Ministers who have raised, at the very highest level in Israel, the most egregious practices in the west bank, designed specifically to prevent a two-state solution, only for Israeli policy to double down. Accordingly, I congratulate the Secretary of State.”
“I am delighted by the reprieve—the New Forest was to be split, and part of it swallowed by Southampton. Will the Secretary of State accept my representation that we want the integrity of the New Forest to remain, and the last thing we want is for it all to be swallowed by Southampton?”
“To address one of the points made by my right hon. Friend the Member for South Holland and The Deepings, that takes account of the fact that there may be different levels of need in different areas.”
“Yes, essentially today we are putting these services on a statutory footing. Of course subsequent Governments can change statutes, but this Bill makes it an explicit decision of this House and Parliament, rather than a fiat by Government decision.”
“I will address exactly that point shortly. If a child is not developing properly and is not sleeping, feeding or communicating, parents need to know that they have somewhere to turn.”
The complete record
Every one of 1,773 lines we hold for Sir Desmond Swayne, in date order, each linked to its source. Free to read, in full, without an account. Page 35 of 36.
“6. Should not potentially dangerous terrorists be imprisoned on the orders of a judge, rather than being in their living rooms and wearing a tag on the order of the Secretary of State for the Home Department? [212248]”
“On small clubs, my constituent, Mr. John Crosthwaite-Eyre, who is treasurer of Dunwood Manor golf club, has informed me that the price of the club's licence will increase from £16 to £1,145, which is simply outrageous.”
“Given the hon. Gentleman's admission about the binge-drinking culture, is he not ashamed of the text message that his party put out before the last election: "Cldnt give a XXXX 4 last ordrs? Vote Labour 4 xtra time"? Is that an incitement to café culture? Is that a measured contribution to dealing with binge drinking?”
“It is not only the Opposition who are responsible for holding the Government to account the entire House of Commons, but—indeed, it is the entire Parliament. Part of our problem with the passage of legislation is the acceptance that scrutiny is down to the Opposition. If more Labour Members had taken the lead from the right hon. Member for Holborn and St. Pancras, given that their influence over the Government is likely to be much greater than ours, we might have made more progress than we have.”
“Pancras (Mr. Dobson), because he has a long and honourable record on the issue—seemed to be over-sensitive when they intervened on my right hon. Friend the Member for Haltemprice and Howden (David Davis). The tenor of their interventions was not that my right hon. Friend's argument was wrong. Indeed, the premise of their interventions was that they accepted entirely what he was saying. They merely complained that he had not said it sooner. They implied that it was the job of the Opposition to discover the falsehoods inherent in the Government's arguments and statistics. Well, those Labour Members were wrong in fact, because many of us have been making such points for some time—perhaps not as vocally as we should have done—and they also attempted to absolve themselves from any responsibility for holding the Government to account.”
“Field) made the point about the residential population of places such as Covent Garden. My constituency is typified by small towns—for example, God's own town of Lymington—in which the High street contains not only commercial premises but people's houses. It is a residential area, but those who live there have to endure the problems that arise as drinkers approach pubs, at closing time and after closing time. I do not believe that those problems will be solved if closing times are staggered so that people are not thrown on to the street at the same time. The reality for my constituents will be that the agony will be prolonged. Frankly, that is not an experiment that I want to see take place. I would prefer the benefits to be established before it happens in Lymington. Labour Members—I exclude the right hon. Member for Holborn and St.”
“Gentleman recognised the irresponsibility of the text message that was sent to young voters just before the last general election. It bears repetition: "Cldnt give a XXXX 4 last ordrs? Vote Labour 4 xtra time". That is not a message for people seeking to enjoy a café culture. It has a wholly different connotation. There may be additional marginal benefits for people who wish to drink at any time in a 24-hour period. However, I cannot understand the desire to drink at 7 am, unless one is suffering from a dreadful toothache or something similar. The benefits and convenience will accrue to those people who wish to drink at 7 am, but enormous inconvenience will be caused to my constituents. My hon. Friend the Member for Cities of London and Westminster (Mr.”
“However, I do not swallow the argument that the problem that a minority of our fellow citizens have with drink arises because of the confines of our existing drinking laws and that by getting rid of them we will be able to move to the sunny uplands of a café culture. I just do not believe that. The cart is being put before the horse. We have to analyse the real causes of our problematic drinking culture and then we will, perhaps, be able to liberalise our drinking laws in the hope that that will lead to more sensible drinking. But it is madness to do it the other way round and assume that the benefits that are enjoyed by certain Mediterranean countries will automatically flow to us simply by liberalising our licensing laws, when we already know that we have a severe problem. I am glad that the hon.”
“I could not believe it—there was blood and vomit everywhere, and people were arguing and fighting. Some of the "clients"—if one can call them that—made it clear that what we witnessed was a typical Saturday night, and that impression was reinforced by the staff. Many people consider ending up in casualty on a Saturday night as part of what habitually happens. It is, to them, unremarkable that one might end a Saturday evening with a trip to casualty. By contrast, the Government have held out the prospect of a café culture, with a more Mediterranean approach to drinking habits. I can understand the attraction of that. The hon. Member for Selby (Mr. Grogan) gave us a good illustration of what happens in a pub as we approach closing time.”
“That huge increase in cost is presumably a consequence of the shift from magistrate licensing to local authority licensing. I understand the rationale behind that, as it will lead to greater public accountability. However, we have already heard about the regulations that will remove any real accountability, as they will prevent councillors from representing the localities to which they are supposed to be accountable. Some months ago, my wife and I had the misfortune to have to go on a mission of mercy—we had to accompany a friend to casualty on a Saturday night. The local general practitioner had diagnosed an infection in our friend's joints, and had recommended that the lady concerned should be taken to hospital in Southampton. We arrived in casualty to be greeted by a scene that could have been painted by Hieronymous Bosch.”
“I went to university in Scotland, some considerable time ago. When I first arrived, people who wanted to get a drink on a Sunday had to go to a hotel, as bona fide travellers. Since then, the word "traveller" has acquired an unwelcome connotation, but there has been little progress when it comes to licensing. The licensing Act 2003 is a dreadful measure. I am glad that I voted against it. It introduces licensing flexibilities, but at an enormous cost. I have already spoken in the House about the experience of my constituent, Mr. John Crosthwaite-Eyre. He has been told that the licence for his Dunwood Manor golf club will rise from £16 to £1,145. That will not secure a more flexible licence that extends opening times beyond what was previously available. The new licence will only allow the club to open as it has always done.”
“Precisely, Madam Deputy Speaker. The hon. Member for Bath (Mr. Foster) was very honest in his speech when he made the profoundly shocking admission that the Liberal Democrats' policy is to reduce the age at which alcohol can be consumed legally. In my constituency, we have a problem with under-age drinking and the disorder to which it gives rise. That criminality could certainly be avoided at a stroke by reducing the age at which alcohol can be consumed, but does it really address the problem?”
“That is the key point. We should not for one moment assume that a reduction in the age at which alcohol can be purchased will lead to a lessening of the problems that arise from young people acquiring and consuming alcohol. However, I reassure my hon. Friends that there is not the remotest prospect of such a policy being implemented. When I knock on doors and discuss the voting intentions of constituents, I am sometimes tempted to terrify them with Liberal Democrat policies—”
“If my constituents were to be worried about the prospect of a reduction in the age at which alcohol may be purchased, I would seek to reassure them that the likelihood of that happening lay in their own hands.”
“The price of drugs has fallen dramatically. That disincentive seems to have been removed. Meanwhile, the reclassification of cannabis, the entry drug of choice, has left consumers—if we can call them that—with a mixed message: that they will not be prosecuted for holding supplies for their own consumption, but that the supply remains entirely in criminal hands. Is that not the worst of all possible worlds?”
“I apologise, Mr. Speaker. I believe that I said "Question no. 13", but I meant to say "Question no. 15". Clearly, however, the answer was the same. Does the Minister acknowledge that, notwithstanding the Government's efforts to improve take-up, 1.5 million people entitled to pension credit are still not receiving it? Would it not be better to allow the state pension to rise by linking it to the level of earnings, as the number of people requiring means-tested benefits would fall accordingly?”
“At the beginning of this week, Jonathan Baume, the leader of the First Division Association—the mandarins' union—was quoted on Radio 5 as saying that, at times, No. 10 and the Chancellor's office have competing and conflicting agendas, and that civil servants and Ministers are having to make sense of this battle. Why did he say that?”
“It is undoubtedly the case that the creative power available to judges as a consequence of the Human Rights Act 1998 has allowed them to remove from our constituents the proper protection of statute law and planning rules. That protection was never enough, but now it has been removed. A serious remedy is required, and it should have been in this Queen's Speech.”
“Let those people who think that they have been aggrieved or unfairly treated go to the magistrates and argue the case that an order has been improperly placed upon them. Let them make their cases in front of the common sense of the justices, rather than the community having to wait, collect evidence and go to the justices to get such situations remedied. Put the boot on the other foot. I was glad that my hon. Friend the Member for Sevenoaks (Mr. Fallon) dealt so effectively with the problem of Travellers. I was going to say a good deal about Travellers, but he has saved me that trouble, and if hon. Members did not hear his speech, I urge them to read the Official Report .”
“Member for Birkenhead (Mr. Field) has to say in that respect, because the Queen's Speech should have had rather more to say, and I am disappointed that it did not. Given the nature of the disorder that we now face—admittedly it is low level, but it disrupts and makes many people's lives a misery—and the need to deal with it quickly and effectively, I suggest that the police need the summary powers that parents used to exercise. Unfortunately, that is no longer the case. A curfew order—an order to remove yourself from the streets, go home and stay at home—is a power that the police should instantly enjoy to quell problems on the streets, rather than having to seek that power months or weeks later in the courts. Let the boot be on the other foot.”
“The Government have dipped their toe in the water with the introduction of on-the-spot fines, on which I am inclined to go further. The Government indicated that they would take action, which, I believe, would have been effective. The Prime Minister told us that the Government would use housing benefit as a means of enforcing proper social control, which I would have welcomed. It is unfortunately the case that a disproportionate number of those whose antisocial behaviour presents problems are in receipt of one benefit or another. Indeed, an increasing proportion of our population is in receipt of benefits, and we therefore have a proper and potentially very useful means of social control. To receive benefits should be part of a contract that involves behaving according to certain standards. I ask Ministers to listen to what the right hon.”
“There are far too few police, who also lack proper power to deal with the problem. All sorts of new measures have been introduced, some of which have their place and are effective in some ways. However, the principal measure that has been introduced to deal with antisocial behaviour, the ASBO, is, in my view, far too long in coming. The evidence that must be collected and taken to court some weeks later leaves the problem festering for far too long. It is in the nature of antisocial behaviour and low-level disorder that it must be dealt with quickly—even instantly—because people's lives are made a misery for months. I want to see all sorts of measures of a much shorter order that can be introduced more quickly.”
“Some 10 days ago in the village of Hordle in the New Forest, the parish council found itself barricaded in the village hall and unable to get out as a consequence of the activities of a baying mob of youths outside, and the police had to be called to release them. The problems in Hordle are not entirely new, but they are shocking. Communities used to police themselves. Antisocial behaviour is nothing new, and rowdy children and problem families have always existed. However, if parents were unable or unprepared to deal with such a problem in the past, it would have been dealt with by relatives, neighbours or informally by the local policeman. If any of those people were to take effective measures now, they would quickly find that it is they who would be up in front of the beak, so we increasingly rely on the police.”
“They are involved in all sorts of civic groups; they keep voluntary organisations going; and, typically, they are on the parochial church council. One tends to see the same faces in all those voluntary groups, whether it be the carer group, the stroke group or whatever. Those people put so much in. When they were younger, they afforded proper respect to their elders. Now, when they come to my surgeries, they are outraged and, as I have said, principally bewildered that younger people do not show them the respect that they properly think they deserve and, more importantly, which they gave as a matter of course to their elders when they were younger. The low-level disorder that now affects many parts of constituency—I am sure that it is not untypical—stretches credulity to its limits.”
“I think that I am right in saying that my constituency has one of the highest age profiles among parliamentary divisions, with a high proportion of retired people. Those people react with a number of emotions to the failure of the Government's policy on crime and disorder. That has been the case after previous Queen's Speeches, and I fear that it will also be the case as a result of the measures foreshadowed in this Queen's Speech. My constituents' emotions are typically anger, outrage and, principally, bewilderment. By and large, those people have worked hard, not only in their professional lives, but in what they have contributed to civic society. They are disproportionately the people who collect for the Royal British Legion or the Red Cross.”
“of what the British Army does is what we are now doing in Iraq: low-intensity peacekeeping operations, which require huge numbers of men on the ground. The principal difficulty that we have faced in prosecuting the war in Iraq is that we have far too few troops on the ground, as have the Americans. That in itself points to an enormous failure of planning for the whole Iraqi operation. There was a plan to fight a high-intensity war and very little planning for the post-war reconstruction.”
“Our weapons systems will be so "smart" that they will knock out our enemies' capability before they even realise that the conflict has started. As a consequence, we will need fewer platforms. Of course, there is a fault in that logic. What if they hit us first and get the few platforms that we possess? Let us assume that the MOD is right in its fundamental assumption. Let us assume that the investment that the Government are undertaking, allegedly, in high-tech warfare is of such a calibre that they have abolished attritional warfare and we will hit the enemy so hard first that we knock out his capability. The flaw in the logic is this: how often do we go to war in that way? How many conflicts that we participate in require that sort of capability? It is nice to have—indeed, it is vital to have—but in reality 90 per cent.”
“Such a reduction begs an important question: why does a medium-sized operation of low intensity require the mobilisation of so many reservists? I have no resentment at having been mobilised, but how does supposedly being able to do with fewer regular infantry square with the need to call up reservists more often? I do not believe that the public will understand that at all. The Ministry of Defence has been entirely infected with the most strange contagion. When one talks to MOD people about the problem of Army, Air Force and Navy numbers, they are full of jargon. They employ a kind of "newspeak". They refer to "network-enabled capability" and "effects-based warfare". The basic theory is that through technology, we have abolished attritional warfare.”
“We have the expertise in these matters: we have 30 years' experience in conducting such peace support operations. Our failure of policy was in failing to bring the benefits of that expertise and experience to our principal ally. If one behaves like a poodle, one gets treated like a poodle. I do not believe that we ever had in Baghdad someone of sufficient authority—with the Prime Minister's ear—to call the shots and make clear our feelings to our American allies. Perhaps Peter Mandelson might properly have done that job, particularly given his experience in Northern Ireland. That was a policy failure on our part. A principal failing of the Queen's Speech is the determination to proceed with reducing the number of Army battalions by two.”
“Another factor leading to this fundamental growth in the number of disaffected Iraqis is the way in which operations have been conducted. There is an etiquette that British troops exercise when, for example, searching an Iraqi property. The man of the household is brought outside and briefed on what is to happen. He is then allowed to go back inside and brief his women-folk. One may call it an illusion. Nevertheless, the etiquette is maintained whereby the man remains in charge and is not humiliated in front of his women-folk. The operation is discharged on that basis. I do not believe that our American allies operate in that way and according to that etiquette. As a result, there is huge and growing discontent, and irritation with those who are increasingly regarded as "the occupiers".”
“The United Nations told us that there was no electoral register, but every household had a ration card, so we were able to conduct elections on the basis of a household franchise. That worked very effectively. Those elections were conducted by a number of political parties, all of which were enthusiastic about trying out democracy and gaining power. Once that local government structure was created, the problem was that the regime in Baghdad—the coalition provisional authority—would not allow sufficient genuine power and responsibility to be handed to those locally accountable and elected authorities. An enormous amount of frustration built up, and as a result people moved to support the hotheads and militants for whom there had been no support before.”
“About this time last year, we had three principal enemies in Iraq: organised criminal gangs who regarded a stable Iraq as a threat to their operations; former regime loyalists, of whom there were actually very few, although they were well funded and well armed; and foreign fighters. In essence, that was it. My fear is that in the intervening year we have acquired a fourth and very much more dangerous enemy in Iraq: a huge number of disaffected Iraqis. I regard that as a failure of policy on our part. By September last year, we had conducted democratic elections in the four provinces under British control in southern Iraq, and provided a local government structure.”
“I am deeply sceptical that those problems can be addressed by ID cards, but my mind remains open and I will listen to that argument. I will not say that I am opposed in principle to ID cards, although I do have deep reservations about them. If I can be persuaded that they will deliver what they are alleged to deliver, I will of course be prepared to consider that equation. In seconding the motion before us— "That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty"— the hon. Member for Sheffield, Heeley (Ms Munn) graciously referred to the fact that it was my service in Iraq that prevented me from attending the previous Queen's Speech. With that in mind, I want to draw to Treasury Ministers' attention what I regard as a failure in the vital regard of prosecuting the war against terrorism.”
“They might not feel entirely comfortable with the possibility of a policeman demanding to see their papers, or of their having to account for themselves, but fundamentally, if it comes to a trade-off they would be prepared to trade their liberty for greater order. I respect that position, but my concern is that when the Bill in question comes before us, the Government will persuade us that it will indeed deliver greater order and address the problems that it allegedly addresses. Of the problems for which ID cards are described as the panacea, let us consider immigration and asylum. The difficulties and chaos that attend our immigration and asylum system arise from a number of failures of Government policy, each of which could be addressed individually.”
“I do not like the idea that the subject be accountable to the state—the state is our servant, not our master. Of course, we are told that terrorists are determined to destroy our liberty and everything that we stand for, but I caution the Government against destroying those liberties first, before the terrorists can even get to them, through the remedies that we propose. I acknowledge that if I were to go down the principal community thoroughfare in my constituency—Station road in New Milton—I would probably discover that a significant majority of my constituents are in favour of an identity card system.”
“My hon. Friend is right that the 1998 Act plays a significant role. Even before the 1998 Act, a significant problem existed that needed to be addressed. The fact that the Government are not addressing it is lamentable, particularly when the Prime Minister, at Prime Minister's questions only a few days ago, indicated that the Government were reviewing possible remedies. Here was the opportunity to provide that remedy—in the Queen's Speech. Where is it? The hon. Member for Barnsley, West and Penistone (Mr. Clapham) expressed concern that the measures in the Queen's Speech, particularly those relating to identity cards, are a threat to liberty, and he expressed fundamental reservations about his Government's policy in this respect. In fact, I share his prejudice.”
“My hon. Friend is right. The reality is that we need more troops, not fewer. That is the problem, but the Queen's Speech did not address it, which was remiss of it.”
“X introduced the meeting as follows: "This meeting is to make clear our serious concern for our patients' welfare — and to highlight some of the causes so that they may be addressed without delay, thereby avoiding serious trouble." He goes on to list some of the problems: "Triage delay . . . Lack of feedback from doctor to doctor . . . Inadequate feedback, slow and poor quality . . . Hopeless record-keeping and doctor contact . . . Poor car-organisation . . . To this I would add . . . Low standard of triage, which is unsafe . . . Poor quality of outcome . . . Poor communication . . . Cavalier attitude regarding handing-on of work . . . Dire cost-effectiveness".”
“In July this year, my primary care trust took on the out-of-hours care for the New Forest, and together with other local PCTs contracted Primecare to carry out the service. Let me give those Members who do not have that new system a taste of what they are in for. I discovered that something was radically wrong right at the outset when a retired doctor contacted me to say that he was being telephoned by his former patients, asking him if he could do anything for them because they could not get anything out of the out-of-hours service. I have here the minutes of a meeting at a doctors' surgery—I shall not give its name, but it is in God's own town of Lymington. Dr.”
“She wrote that at "approximately 10.30 pm his dressing came off his foot—I phoned Prime Care and after the telephonist spoke to someone I was told he needed to see a nurse and they would phone me back and give this 'top' priority. Three quarters of an hour later I phoned again and I was told it was 'top' priority and someone would be phoning shortly. I am still waiting!!!"”
“After 10 minutes, she gave up and rang the other number, on which she reached an operative who could not understand what she was telling him and handed her to another operator who also could not understand. The call took 15 minutes, and as it was an 0845 number she was paying a premium rate. Eventually a nurse called back and the problem was sorted out with a visit to the local hospital, after she had been in pain for 10 hours. Another wonderful example came from the other end of my constituency, in Ringwood. A lady's father had his toe amputated and came to stay with her to be looked after, but the dressing fell off, so she telephoned for some assistance.”
“No, I will not. He concludes: "The Forest GPs have an enviable and hard-won reputation for looking after their patients' properly, and are deeply unhappy to find that this is already being undermined. We will not tolerate this, finding ourselves in the situation of being blamed by patients for inexcusably bad service from the new"— out-of-hours—"system." So that is what the doctors think. Let me give a vignette from my postbag as to what the patients think about this service. I received a letter from a lady in Milford-on-Sea who turned out to be suffering from a severe bladder infection. She did not know that at the time—she was simply in pain when she rang up at 8.30 in the morning only to get a robot voice telling her that no operators were available.”
“Then there was a lady in Milford-on-Sea who rang up with her problem, got a foreign-sounding man on the phone, and could not get any sense out of the conversation. Eventually, a nurse rang back, who, having offered the woman the option of being treated at Bournemouth or Southampton, and having been told that that would involve either a 50 mile or a 30 mile round trip, said that she did not know where either of those towns were, because she was phoning from Sheffield. After further considerable delay—”
“No, I will not. Another example came to me from Diabetes UK, which is making representations on behalf of one of my constituents. The woman in question had shingles—she did not know that at the time, but she suspected it—and diabetic complications. She rang up at 10 am, and eventually, 12 hours later, she got to see a doctor— 12 hours later for an out-of-hours service. Another example came from Fordingbridge. It was a case of suspected stroke, in which the district nurse was contacted and handled the contact with Primecare. That contact began at 7 o'clock in the evening, with repeated calls at 9 pm and 10 pm, and the person was told that a doctor was coming. At a quarter past midnight, a doctor rang to say that he would not call after all.”
“I have examined the document on the internet—"NPfITsuppliersguide.pdf"—which says: "Following the final selection of LSPs"— local service providers— "and the two 'core' clinical applications for the NHS, it has been implicit that these systems will ultimately replace existing NHS clinical systems over time". The reality is that the systems that our GPs are using now will be discontinued. During my research, I came across a very interesting document—the minutes of a board meeting of the Surrey and Sussex strategic health authority, which stated: "Professor Lawrenson raised the issue of the pressure being placed on surgeries to conform with NPfIT, when funds and culture were perhaps adverse."”
“I want to abide by your strictures about being brief, Madam Deputy Speaker, but I want to address one other problem about which doctors in the New Forest have been complaining to me. That is their fear that the system used by about 60 per cent. of them—EMIS—is going to be discontinued, and that they will have to abandon their tried and tested system and adopt something that will be expensive, unfamiliar and unhelpful. I have made a number of representations on their behalf. The story that we have got is that it will not work like that at all, and that EMIS might survive. During my research, I have found that that is not the case. The Minister referred to the guidance.”
“Hopkins) asked whether a private company was involved. As I understand it, the problem is—I will meet the primary care trust again tomorrow, so see whether this is the case—that the service is costing vastly more than it is being reimbursed by the NHS for providing it. With respect to it being a private company, the reality is that most of the provision is by the people who have always provided it—the doctors in the New Forest. The chaos is engendered by the fact that this has been taken over by the primary care trust and then subcontracted to someone else. Were it still being run and led by the doctors of the New Forest, we would not be exposed to this problem.”
“Finally, I shall give the example of a lady in Ringwood, who wrote: "The nurse asked my father a lot of questions which were unsuitable as he could not get his breath, let alone talk." Eventually, they got to a treatment centre, where her father "was seen by a German doctor, he was good but my father needed oxygen and the cylinder was empty." I sympathise with the point on which she finished her letter: "My father has worked hard all his life. It is only now he needs medical help and this is what he has to put up with." That is just a small selection of the complaints that I have been receiving from the New Forest. Ministers may live in planet Richmond house, but the reality of people's experience of primary care, and particularly of the out-of-hours service, is as I have described. The hon. Member for Luton, North (Mr.”
“I will come to why it is like this in a moment. Let me finish with this particular lady's difficulties. After four hours' delay, and having got to a centre—having been offered in the interlude Brighton, Winchester and Andover, moving in an elliptical orbit of increasing distances away from the caller—she finally got to a doctor. After telling the story of what was wrong and giving her name, address and medical history so many times, she then found that the doctor had the wrong name and no other information about her.”
“No, I will not. The minutes continued: "The chief executive replied that the nature of the new . . . contract would effectively see the demise of all other systems and their current suppliers. Professor Lawrenson also observed that the traditional benefits associated with suppliers going to great lengths . . . to meet NHS requirements was in danger of disappearing . . . GPs . . . were currently able to exercise some choice in terms of the systems they used". That choice would not be available, "once IDX . . . was introduced". The minutes continued: "The Chairman acknowledged these concerns but remarked that the NHS was undergoing a process of 'ruthless standardisation' as far as IT was concerned and that there were clear advantages to that strategy." Well, we have not seen any advantages.”