Huw Irranca-Davies
Afan Ogwr Rhondda Llywydd · Welsh Labour and Co-operative Party · Wales
“However, we have in the past sought to shoulder some of this financial burden with local authorities to prevent householders having to pay towards these costs—so, for example, properties that were impacted by historical lead and copper smelting in Coedpoeth in Wrexham, and Craig y Don, Anglesey.”
“We've also made an extra £52 million available for on-farm infrastructure investments, and a further £14 million for the agriculture and horticulture sectors in 2025.”
“There is some evidence to suggest that a small number of these sites have indeed, historically, received chemical waste, including, as you mentioned, Delyth, potentially—potentially—polluting substances such as PCBs or other chemical compounds.”
“Well, I notice that Paul Johnson of the IFS, the Institute for Fiscal Studies, also says that the impact will be limited. But I would suggest as well that, here in Wales, where the characteristic of Welsh farming is smaller than some of the megafarms that we see in the UK, the impact will be less than it is across the wider parts of Engla…”
“Natural Resources Wales also provide a regulatory role in some sites in certain circumstances—so, for example, if groundwater is impacted. I might go on a little bit, Delyth, because there's more I want to say on this issue.”
“Yes, I can come back with more detail on what we're doing on slate tips as well and the safety of slate tips, because the same principle applies in terms of the safety of any tips that we have in Wales, and I think some of our lead-in applications that we're doing on coal tips are also applicable in other tips as well where we've got that…”
The complete record
Every one of 190 lines we hold for Huw Irranca-Davies, in date order, each linked to its source. Free to read, in full, without an account. Page 3 of 4.
“Diolch yn fawr iawn, Dirprwy Lywydd. Rwy'n falch iawn o fod yma heddiw i gyhoeddi cynllun ffermio cynaliadwy diwygiedig ar ôl gweithio'n agos gyda ffermwyr, elusennau amgylcheddol ac eraill dros y misoedd diwethaf.”
“We have spent years not just being consistent on the best way forward, but working with people, looking at international examples, to say, 'What's the way we avoid unintended consequences?' and minimise the impact on our wonderful—I have to say—microbreweries, small-scale breweries and our food and drink sector. So, we will do that. You have my commitment that we will do that, and we have some time to do it, but we're not going to delay inordinately; we want to bring this in as early as possible within the next Parliament. So, actually, it's not far off in parallel with the England, Northern Ireland and Scotland schemes, but ours will be focused on reuse as well as recycling.”
“Because if we look at the 53 nations and rising who have implemented a DRS with reuse, some of which operate within countries where there is slight divergence even within countries and the same big corporate suppliers who operate within those countries very successfully, it doesn't fragment the market or disrupt the market, you can find ways to do it. But we will make sure that we do not disrupt those smaller businesses, those smaller retailers, the smaller brewers; we'll work with them on this. So, I'm looking forward to meeting with Bridgend breweries and also others in order to discuss this, because we actually need their help now in devising this scheme in the right way. We're not doing this in a gung-ho way, believe you me, and we're not coming to this with a blank sheet.”
“Luke, thank you for that. That's a really good point. One of the things that has characterised our approach over recent months and, indeed, years, where we've held a consistent position, is our close engagement with the supply chain. And even though, yes, we will have had some of the supply chain say, 'Well, what does this mean for us?'—microbreweries, smaller corner shops, when you have DRS equipment and so on—there are ways through. That's the reassurance I can give to Bang-On Brewery, who, by the way, I hope to visit very soon as well, and I'm happy to talk through the details with them and others.”
“We will then bring forward proposals for this scheme, informed by that trial, for a consultation before the end of this Senedd term, and then our aim is to bring forward the legislation to implement the scheme in Wales as early as possible in the next Senedd term. So, we'll do the work now, and we'll bring it forward. There won't be any great delay or whatever and we'll work with all partners to bring it forward. But it must be something that works for the context and the high ambition of us here in Wales. We've led before, we're going to lead again.”
“They actually say: 'With Wales already ranked second in the world for recycling, they are in a unique position of implementing a scheme into an already high recycling nation. For this reason, they prefer to continue to work on a scheme that is right for their context. We will continue to work in partnership with the Welsh Government, as they make decisions regarding a Deposit Return Scheme in Wales.' But you are right, Hannah. We need to work with all our partners on this, and I've engaged intensely over recent months with all of those partners, including on the supply chain, to get this right, but we have time. The next step for the development of the scheme in Wales will be a reuse scheme at scale in Newport, building on the work we've previously done in Brecon and elsewhere, on which we're already working in partnership with industry.”
“Absolutely. Hannah, thank you so much for that. In answer to your question, and to pick up the point, Janet, sorry, I forgot to mention to you in terms of timing, we have the time now, actually, not to delay inordinately, but to work with supply chains, with local authorities and others, as we have always done. We are in a very good position here in Wales to do that work and to get it right, and to look at the different ways we should take this forward. Just to remind people, it is within our competences to take this forward. And I do note, Dirprwy Lywydd, the UK Government also put out a statement, because they are, to their credit, proceeding with a recycling-focused DRS.”
“And make no mistake, Dirprwy Lywydd, we will need to have glass and aluminium and plastic reuse in schemes in the future, and that will add cost if we have to retrofit the machinery to do it. And also, there would be no clear pathway whatsoever for the glass sector to decarbonise in line with net zero, or for producers to be able to deliver their own individual decarbonisation targets. So, this is trying to help and work with the supply chain to get there, and we simply ask for consistency from Members who have seen the evidence before, and have said they support this, and to stand by what they’ve said before.”
“Not only that, we would risk a drop in recycling within Wales, because we are already achieving the level of recycling at a level that would be delivered now. And, fair play, England, Scotland and Northern Ireland want to lift their recycling rates, and we applaud them in doing that. We are already achieving it. If we have to tread water, Janet, for the next five, six, seven years, we will drop back in recycling, not go forward. A narrow recycling-only approach has already faced challenge, Janet, from our local authorities around the justification and the impact of their approach—which has not been achieved without some pain, some real effort—to recycling performance. A scheme without glass would mean that significant additional cost and disruption would be required to retrofit the infrastructure needed to accommodate glass in the future.”
“We were actually consistent, Dirprwy Lywydd, when the four-nations approach to consultation went out three years ago, when all four nations were agreed that an all-in glass, plastics, aluminium, and others, reuse, not just recycling scheme, should be the way forward, for decarbonisation, as well as tackling litter, and as well as tackling the scourge that we have of our marine litter and so on. So, I simply ask for consistency here. You ask me what the negative consequences would be. Well, let me tell you. The negative consequences if we were to proceed on a four-nations approach would be: first of all, we run right against the clear outcome of that consultation, where 86 per cent of the public were in favour of an all-in scheme, including glass.”
“In fact, by including glass...there will be a reduction in CO2eq emissions of more than 50,000 tonnes each year—or nearly 1.3 million tonnes over 25 years!' This will help, said that person, 'tackle the plague of glass bottles littering communities because its inclusion of glass will see the recycling of an additional 53,000 tonnes of containers. It would be fantastic to see' this happening in Wales too. How much I agree with that, Janet, because those were your words introducing your Bill. Now, I notice that you’ve done a u-turn and you’ve lost the bottle; the Conservative front bench seems to have lost the bottle as well. We have been consistent on this.”
“Diolch yn fawr iawn, Janet, and I apologise, Dirprwy Lywydd. I’m utterly flabbergasted to see that the Conservatives have once again u-turned on a strongly held position of principle, and those principles, if they’re not saleable on one day, 'We'll find another set of principles so we can go forward.' I really, actually, commend that individual who brought forward that Bill, who said, 'There has been increased interest in whether glass bottles should be included in a DRS. I am pleased to agree...that glass should be part of the scheme in Wales. 'Recycling glass bottles lowers the risk of injury to people and wildlife as well as reducing our environmental impact.”
“Thank you, Janet. Wales is second in the world for recycling, meaning our recycling performance is already comparable to international deposit-return schemes. As our local authorities already deliver recycling at the level that a narrow recycling-only DRS would provide, it's vital that the scheme in Wales matches our high ambitions, including for reuse.”
“Diolch yn fawr iawn, Llywydd. And I note the comments by the Chair of the LJC committee on monolingual legislation, but also his comments on the possibly positive overtures from the Secretary of State for Wales, which is encouraging. I would commend the work of the committee in pursuing that matter. But can I thank the Chair of LJC for that contribution? This UK emissions trading scheme will continue to be a very important policy for Wales, because it provides a vital investment signal, which incentivises decarbonisation whilst also promoting economic growth, and that's why I commend it to the Siambr today.”
“Llywydd, subject to parallel agreement by the UK Parliament, the Scottish Parliament and the Northern Ireland Assembly, this Order will come into force in December 2024. I therefore commend the motion to the Chamber.”
“It also incorporates changes made to the UK ETS cap into the 2020 Order, which had been temporarily implemented via the Greenhouse Gas Emissions Trading Scheme Auctioning (Amendment) Regulations 2023, and again to include Northern Ireland. It also expands the scope of the scheme to include carbon dioxide venting from the upstream oil and gas sector. It strengthens and regularises the enforcement of the UK ETS by introducing new civil penalties and an enforcement notice, and it amends existing penalties for better parity across the scheme. In bringing this forward, we sought advice from our statutory advisers, the Climate Change Committee, on the proposals covered in the Order, and I wish to offer my thanks, as always, to the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee for their scrutiny of this Order.”
“Diolch yn fawr iawn, Llywydd. I'm very pleased to move the motion, and I'm pleased to be able to bring forward the Greenhouse Gas Emissions Trading Scheme (Amendment) (No. 2) Order 2024, which makes minor amendments to the Greenhouse Gas Emissions Trading Scheme Order 2020. These amendments help update the scope of the UK emissions trading scheme, and strengthen its capabilities to deliver decarbonisation goals in Wales and the UK. So, the Order does several things. It extends changes previously made to the ETS legislation on a GB-only basis, such as the inclusion of flights to Switzerland in the scheme, to the whole of the UK, following the return of the Northern Ireland Assembly.”
“I think we’re on the same mission here of what we need to do for these communities that live in the shadow of our industrial past, and make this safe for them and actually gain some of the benefits when we have effective restoration and reclamation, as indeed we’ve seen in parts of the Parc Slip within my own constituency. Diolch yn fawr iawn.”
“Okay. This does not mean that we’ve forgotten about the need to remediate and reclaim disused tips; that’s got to be a long-term aim, but we’ve got to be realistic and recognise that it’s not feasible right now in this current economic climate, given that it can take up to £30 million to reclaim one single tip. But I can assure you that these longer term plans will be something that I will continue to raise with the UK Government. Dirprwy Lywydd, I probably have exhausted your patience, but I do want to thank everybody who gave evidence for the committee report, the committee members and others who spoke today as well and raised very valid points.”
“Alongside the continued investment from the Welsh Government—my apologies, but I think—. We will work with the UK Government ahead of the second phase of the spending review to ensure that Wales’s needs for future years are fully considered and to help make these tips safe for current and future generations. Am I exhausting your patience?”
“Welsh Government has already allocated approximately £65 million since 2020 to improve the safety of coal tips, but looking to the future, indeed, the case for the UK Government to contribute funding to make our tips safe is very clear and very compelling, and to that end I am indeed pleased that the Chancellor’s autumn budget on 30 October demonstrates she has listened to what Wales needs. She has recognised the potential safety threat from disused coal tips, and has provided £25 million in 2025-26—[ Interruption .]—I think I’ll answer your question in a moment.”
“Diolch yn fawr, Dirprwy Lywydd. Once the Bill is in place, it will then be important to focus on developing the resource capacity and the capability—something that the committee actually raised here—through considering an independent review of funding needs, as well as developing a more detailed strategic approach to managing the consequences of Wales's industrial past. Now, nevertheless, there is much we can and are doing in the meantime, to lay the groundwork for the future. A significant aspect of this futureproofing involves, indeed, working with the UK Government.”
“Doing so would significantly expand the legislative reach of an already complex Bill as we go into these latter stages of this Senedd term, and could have significant implications that could make the Bill undeliverable. The aim of the Bill is to reduce the likelihood of landslides of disused coal and non-coal tips through the establishment of a new public body that will have functions in relation to assessment and registration, monitoring and management of disused tips. This is a huge undertaking, and it's what the Government has already committed to delivering. So, in the present time, I hope Members will understand that our focus must be to ensure that disused tips are safe, to deliver a modernised fit-for-purpose regulatory regime, and once the Bill has been implemented—.”
“We set it out in our programme for government, and we remain committed to establishing that long-term proactive regime to ensure the ongoing safety of communities living alongside what is indeed the consequences of Wales's industrial past. So, I do really look forward to introducing the disused mine and quarry tips (Wales) Bill to the Senedd before Christmas. And I note the committee's recommendation 15 for the scope of the forthcoming Bill to expand to include opencast mining. Now, this is something that Members have raised several times in this Chamber previously, Dirprwy Lywydd, so I've got to reiterate the position both I and my ministerial colleagues have highlighted before, that the inclusion of provisions relating to restoration of former opencast sites is simply not feasible at this time.”
“However, it's important to clarify—a point that was raised earlier in the debate—that this community engagement does not extend to community ownership. Such ownership, let's be clear, could introduce significant complexities for those local communities, around finance and liability, so we will want to explore other models of community engagement and benefit sharing. Now, let's turn to the role of legislation. More broadly, the long-term security that our coal-tip communities deserve is grounded in a much-needed modernisation of the outdated disused tips legislation in Wales. Now, this is a real priority for this Government.”
“Indeed. And that, Delyth, very much on that point, is why we accepted recommendation 8 to clarify the respective roles of local authorities, the Coal Authority and Natural Resources Wales, and we've set that out in detail in the response document. So, even though there are clear responsibilities, we're very minded to actually clarify where those roles are. Now, these public authorities must also engage with local communities through the restoration process, and we do recognise that a designated liaison officer could be beneficial to fulfil this duty, as detailed in recommendation 18. We also encourage public participation through all stages of the planning process, but the legislation does not enable us to mandate participation.”
“Now, these guidance documents are kept under continual review, and this is why Welsh Government rejected recommendation 4 in the Coal Authority's best practice guidance, and recommendation 14 on the minerals technical advice note. The point on clarity of responsibilities was an emerging theme that has just been raised by Carolyn, and ultimately we have got to make clear that the operator and landowner is responsible for the restoration and the aftercare of these opencast sites. But others have responsibility for monitoring and so on. Now, they must also ensure that sufficient finance is set aside to enable them to meet the restoration and the aftercare obligations. Delyth.”
“Carolyn, thank you for that. I genuinely appreciate that, out there in the wider world, it can look confusing and complex, and the truth is, it is complex, because there are overlapping responsibilities. But to be very, very clear, local planning authorities monitor the restoration. The Coal Authority manages the coal resources under its control, and NRW issues the permissions and the licences. So, there’s clear line of sight, but there are different agencies dealing with different aspects. Let me just return to my comments. More broadly, both the coal policy and the coal-tip reclamation policy must be cognisant of the planning system, and there are several pieces of planning guidance to which local planning authorities must always adhere.”
“Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. Hoffwn ddiolch i'r Pwyllgor Newid Hinsawdd, yr Amgylchedd a Seilwaith am eu gwaith i gynhyrchu’r adroddiad cynhwysfawr hwn ar adfer safleoedd glo brig, ac i bawb a gyfrannodd yn ystod y camau casglu tystiolaeth. Mae Cymru’n falch o'i threftadaeth lofaol, ond mae'n hanfodol bellach fod gennym ddull strwythuredig o ymdrin â’r safleoedd sy'n cael eu gadael ar ôl. Ein tasg, ar unwaith, yw sicrhau bod gennym y seilwaith ar waith i sicrhau bod tomenni yn ddiogel ac nid yn fygythiad i gymunedau.”
“Communities on tops of hills are being flooded in flash flooding. So, we need to anticipate this and prepare for this in the way that we go forward. Can I just say, as well, thanks for the representations you and Vikki made in terms of the National Flood Forum? I heard at that meeting how important they are. I believe you may have had my letter now confirming that we've extended the funding to the National Flood Forum to work with the residents of Clydach Terrace for the remainder of this financial year. I think that will give some reassurance to them as well, because I know how useful the NFF have been in working with them.”
“If you look now at what's happened tragically in Spain, it's a similar situation; in other parts of Europe, the same thing. We had a presentation this week as part of the climate conversations from somebody senior in the Met Office who showed exactly that: what's changed is these fronts are holding over communities in almost an eddy above them, and then deluging those communities. That is important to note. Things are changing. It's not just the increased amount of water that is being dumped with climate change; it's that they're stopping in some places on top of communities. So, we do need to think creatively and we do need to think differently. My thoughts are with those in Clydach Terrace and also many other communities, because what we're also finding now is communities who never thought they would be flooded are being flooded.”
“Thank you for that supplementary question and for the advocacy that you and Vikki and others have been doing on behalf of the residents. I think that's been very important. And thanks for the opportunity to meet with residents of Clydach Terrace as well, to try and explore ways forward for them, but also, you are right, to ask what have we learnt. What we've learnt is this: way back into 2008 when the Cumbrian floods happened, when there was utter devastation through many of the towns of Cumbria, when it changed landscapes, it rerouted rivers, the power of that, what we saw then with the help of the Met Office was one of the early examples of not simply traumatic weather, but where that weather front moved over and stopped on top of a community.”
“First of all, my heartfelt sympathies go out to all those affected by the recent flooding in Europe, particularly in Spain. The Welsh Government is taking steps to build more resilient communities as we combat the threat of climate change, and that's why this Government has now invested £60 million in South Wales Central since 2021, benefiting 2,800 properties.”
“And then, if the farming unions or others have an alternative analysis, put that to HM Treasury and to the Chancellor of the Exchequer. I'm willing to look at that as well, because what I do want to make sure is that we have the future viability, particularly as we're taking through the sustainable farming scheme. Hard work that that is, we are making good progress steadily, but I want to make sure that, with our focus there on small and medium-scale farms, long-term sustainability financially can be made to happen. So, I hope that helps in some way, but trying to narrow it down into one figure is going to be nigh impossible.”
“But I would say very strongly, and in your discussion with farmers in your area, if farmers are able to put forward alternative analyses or alternative data, they need to put those arguments to the Chancellor of the Exchequer. I would also be interested in seeing that as well, but the complexity of this, because of the value of the farms, the inheritance plans that they may or may not have, the ownership structures of different farms, whether applicable reliefs apply or not—. All of those things and more make it very difficult to arrive at one figure when individual farm businesses will make individual farm business decisions. But genuinely, I'd advise everybody to look at what it actually says on the HM Treasury site. Take advice, including, if you have individual financial advisers, from them, but also Farming Connect.”
“Jane, thank you very much. I'm at risk of repeating myself, but I do want to be really clear on this. Whilst the concerns about the impact of the changes are understandable, and there are a lot of people—a lot of individual farmers and their families—now looking at, 'Does this apply to me? What does it mean?' and so on, and I would strongly advise them to look at it properly, to look at the detail that's on the HMT website, and then work through it as well, and see if it does apply, actually speculating on the precise number of affected farms is not either helpful or in fact possible to arrive at a figure, because of the complexity of the issues that I talked about before. So, on that basis, we revert to the published HMT data.”
“Inheritance tax is a reserved tax controlled by the UK Government and it applies across the UK. HMT figures suggest that most farms will be unaffected by the changes announced by the UK Government.”
“It would enable a more rational and transparent allocation of public spending across the UK. Our priority going forward is to ensure, however, that the current funding formula delivers for Wales, and we will continue to make that case. In response to a previous answer, Sam, I made clear our satisfaction that the future of the sustainable farming scheme for Wales would not be affected by any of the changes within the UK budget. We made that clear representation and I'm glad it's been heard.”
“Thank you, Sam, for that question, and just to point out that the discussions with the UK Treasury were, of course, led by my colleague, who was here a moment ago, the finance Secretary, but in discussion with myself and my officials as well. Despite welcoming the removal of the ring-fenced replacement EU agriculture funding, we've long argued, long argued, and maintain that position, that resources should be allocated across the UK on the basis of relative need, as set out in 'Reforming our Union'. That reform will need to be agreed by all four nations, and set within a new fiscal agreement, overseen and operated by a body independent of UK Government. This would be far more efficient, far more effective. It would help to reduce the distortions and inefficiencies arising in the current system.”
“We provide a wide range of direct and indirect support for farmers in Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire. Our grants for investment in on-farm improvements, equipment and technology, and the learning and development on offer from Farming Connect all demonstrate our commitment to supporting a sustainable future for Welsh agriculture.”
“And I think, and I say this confidently because of the conversations I've had, that farmers also recognise that they rely on these public services, they want to pay the due amount to make sure that we have good public services, and they look back on these 14 years as a constant attack from the people who tried to set fire to our economy.”
“Well, farmers also, many of the farmers I know, will rely on good public services, they will rely on the NHS functioning well, and yet the last 14 years of deep cuts through the years after years of austerity, for which we've never had an apology in this Chamber—. It feels very much to me, Llywydd, like the arsonists who lit the match, stoked the fire, tried to burn the economy and public services, are now complaining about the damage, while warming their hands on the embers. Farmers and their families also want public services that are good, an NHS and public healthcare that is good, and all of these have been under sustained attack for a decade and more of Conservative Governments. So, underlying this is: to what extent are we all willing to contribute to the public wealth of this realm?”
“So, it's very difficult to get to a single point where you say, 'That is the impact.' So, as a result, as I've made clear, what we are relying on is the analysis that's been done by the Treasury, as I made clear in response to previous questions, but also some of the independent analysis that has come from the Institute for Fiscal Studies and others, which has also agreed with the Treasury analysis that the impact will not be on the scale that some are saying—it will be far less. But let me just also point out here, on the budget, the difficulty of the current Chancellor of the Exchequer in filling the gap when walking into that office—and there's an impact here in Wales as well—and finding that what we thought had been committed financially had not been, and she then had to scrabble round to find ways of filling that.”
“Andrew, thank you for that follow-up question. I anticipated it would be about the wider budget in terms of Wales, but it's focused on inheritance tax and the agricultural property relief, which I'm happy to address again. In two other previous answers I've explained that the complexity of this means that to drill down to one individual figure is near impossible because of farm ownership structures; inheritance plans, or the absence thereof; the applicable reliefs that may be applied, or not; spouses, or not; gifting to children and so on, or not. The application of APR will vary enormously and so will the aspect of farm value as well.”
“It's too early to have made a detailed assessment, but Welsh Ministers, with the Senedd's approval, will decide how to allocate the Welsh Government's budget to reflect our national priorities in Wales, including the £1.7 billion increase to our budget settlement, which will make a real difference to people in all our communities.”
“And the other simple thing is, Llywydd, frankly, saying to people, 'Don't waste water.' We've never had a proper value, if you like, on water, so people will fill the bath, they will use clean water that's been treated for a range of purposes that it doesn't need to be used for, and we need to get that message out there again. We have to do this constantly, to say to people, 'Value your water, because it isn't actually cheap or free. There is a cost in this, and some of those costs are actually to do with what we've been talking about here today, which is climate change.'”
“You rightly talk as well about the issue of what is sometimes referred to as, 'How do we use brown water systems?' I declare an interest here, Llywydd, as 15 years ago, when I built my house, we've got a submarine under the garden. It's a submarine-sized thing that harvests all the brown water. We flush our toilets with it; we make other uses of it. If we don't use the water butts in the garden to water the tomatoes, then we use the brown water system to do it and so on. But we somehow need to work across Government and local government to make this more normal and to innovate in that space, so that housing developments can do more of that as well. SuDS on one hand, rain water collection on another, which can be used for other purposes.”
“Jenny, thank you for that supplementary. Can I applaud, because I was talking about that SuDS conference and they went to see the Greener Grangetown initiative, and they were blown away by it, and thought, 'Well, how can we make this mainstream in England as well?' We need to do more of it in Wales. Now, it does mean a different way of thinking for engineers, who are traditionally thinking, 'Well, just plumb it into the pipelines. Just do a traditional hard engineering', but we now have a cadre of very well-informed SuDS engineers throughout Wales, with the support of Welsh Government, and they're in every local authority and starting to think very differently about it.”
“And, in fact, Cardiff have got some brilliant schemes that, at that event, they took delegates around to show them what they were doing in new housing development.”
“And for those who don't know what these are, they're exactly to avoid the situation where all the discharge off roofs and the wider water system goes down the pipework directly, and then basically is beyond the capacity of that pipework. The idea here is that you use natural processes instead, and local authorities are engaging with this in Wales, to develop them into their town planning and the new streets, the new homes that they do, so that we're not discharging straight into the combined sewer network, but we're actually discharging into natural processes and slowing down the process of that into rivers. So, Joel, we'll keep on supporting local authorities, including Cardiff, to do that.”