Huw Irranca-Davies
Afan Ogwr Rhondda Llywydd · Welsh Labour and Co-operative Party · Wales
“However, we have in the past sought to shoulder some of this financial burden with local authorities to prevent householders having to pay towards these costs—so, for example, properties that were impacted by historical lead and copper smelting in Coedpoeth in Wrexham, and Craig y Don, Anglesey.”
“We've also made an extra £52 million available for on-farm infrastructure investments, and a further £14 million for the agriculture and horticulture sectors in 2025.”
“There is some evidence to suggest that a small number of these sites have indeed, historically, received chemical waste, including, as you mentioned, Delyth, potentially—potentially—polluting substances such as PCBs or other chemical compounds.”
“Well, I notice that Paul Johnson of the IFS, the Institute for Fiscal Studies, also says that the impact will be limited. But I would suggest as well that, here in Wales, where the characteristic of Welsh farming is smaller than some of the megafarms that we see in the UK, the impact will be less than it is across the wider parts of Engla…”
“Natural Resources Wales also provide a regulatory role in some sites in certain circumstances—so, for example, if groundwater is impacted. I might go on a little bit, Delyth, because there's more I want to say on this issue.”
“Yes, I can come back with more detail on what we're doing on slate tips as well and the safety of slate tips, because the same principle applies in terms of the safety of any tips that we have in Wales, and I think some of our lead-in applications that we're doing on coal tips are also applicable in other tips as well where we've got that…”
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“Yes, this is a problem in Cardiff, but right across Wales as well, the load that we have on what was a fit-for-a-previous-century approach of having combined sewers and water discharge, where the load could be safely carried at that time, at that level of population, through that pipework. It is now antiquated and it's overloaded and, Joel, that's exactly why we are now at the forefront in Wales. In fact, we recently hosted a UK-wide event, in offices only 50 yards from here, that brought together SuDS engineers from across the UK. And I have to say, the plaudits that were given to Wales, for moving ahead rapidly within sustainable urban drainage systems—.”
“Because we know, under the mapping, if we don't take the right action now to slow down the temperature rises that we're seeing, and the sea level rises, the mapping for Cardiff is not good. But we'll continue to invest in defending Cardiff, don't you worry.”
“Some of this is to do, including in parts of Cardiff, with the use of a thing that bores many people in here, but I love it, and that's sustainable drainage systems. So, when you have those new developments, you're not discharging straight into the rivers, which could overload, you're actually slowing the water down. It is to do with the planting of the right tree in the right place as well. It's all of those things. And we need communities to be involved. Welsh Government has their role to play, with the funding that we are putting in. We also need the risk management authorities in those areas to step up and take forward that funding, and deliver the projects on the ground, some of which will be small, relevant to a small number of householders, to do with resilience and so on; some will be major, as they will be in Cardiff.”
“Thank you, Rhys, for that follow-up question. We're keen to do everything within our power, including some of the significant quantum of funding that I indicated in my initial response to you, which we are giving to Cardiff for a range of things. And you're right: it's actually river fluvial flooding combined with deluges, and surface water flooding, combined with coastal inundation and rising sea levels. In this week that we are having these conversations around climate action, we need to have those conversations with communities in Cardiff, which we are having as well, about their ideas of how we turn this around. But we will maintain, and we have, indeed, both last year and this year going ahead, record levels of investment in flood mitigation and alleviation. It's not all hard defences.”
“This year, the Welsh Government has allocated £1.7 million to Cardiff Council for three capital schemes and £119,000 for three small-scale projects under the flood and coastal risk management programme. We have also provided over £32 million to Cardiff Council to construct a coastal defence scheme under the coastal risk management programme.”
“So, meanwhile, I would also say that I do have a worry, Llywydd—something of a worry—that some of the understandable noise around this will heighten worries and anxiety out there, and I do want to make sure that we refer anybody who is concerned about this not only to take good advice and to do the rational economic and fiscal thing for their farm, but also to know that there is support out there as well from many farming charities, such as the DPJ Foundation, Tir Dewi, RABI and the Farming Community Network. So, anybody who is worried about this, beyond the financial measures, 'Pick up the phone; there are people to talk to about this as well.'”
“But, the details of the changes are all on HMT's website. And simply to say, on one aspect that I haven't been asked about today but is really important in terms of this, the Welsh Government did, indeed, work with the UK Government to make sure that Welsh farmers joining the work that we're still doing on the sustainable farming scheme are not disadvantaged in any way by the agricultural property relief proposals. So, we're very keen to make sure that that is there as well.”
“However, as I said in response to the initial question, if stakeholders such as farming unions are able to generate alternative data, I'd be interested myself to look at that, but they need also to present that, as I understand they will be doing, to the Chancellor of the Exchequer in London; not to my colleague here, but actually to Rachel Reeves. And it is important that all members of the farming unions, but also those who are not members of the farming unions, who will be listening to something of the clamour over this now, get into the detail of this and take good, sound advice. And, by the way, Llywydd, Farming Connect also are one of the organisations in this space, but I know that some farmers will be taking their own independent advice as well, which they will pay for, and so on.”
“So, what the First Minister was doing was, rightly, referring to the published His Majesty's Treasury data. Now, the HMT figures show that most farms will be unaffected by these changes. They show that, for 2021-22, in the most recent available data, across the whole of the United Kingdom there were just 462 claims for agricultural relief that were more than £1 million, and extrapolations have been made by some people then about what that means for Wales. But, let me add to that. Paul Johnson, the director of the independent Institute for Fiscal Studies has concluded that the changes should only affect a small number of the most valuable farms.”
“So, Llyr, look—thank you for that question—for the reasons I outlined before, that every single farm, as we know, is very, very different, and they're different in how they approach their tax advice, whether they gift, whether there is a spousal arrangement as well, the application of this will be very, very different on every single individual landholding. So, to actually do what some have been asking, which is, 'Can you give us the specific number of farms that will be affected?', it is not possible—[ Interruption .] It is not possible to do it, Llyr. [ Interruption .]”
“When we talk about family farming in Wales, those small and medium-scale farms, it is by characteristic significantly different from what there might be on average across the other side of the border in England. So, we have to see how this works out. I understand NFU Cymru and others will be making representations to the Chancellor, and I wish them well with that, to put forward the data and the evidence on their analysis. But, meanwhile, it is a reserved matter, Llywydd.”
“But, simply to say, this is a reserved matter, but I am very aware, and I was at the NFU Cymru conference last week and spoke not only on the platform, taking questions on this and many other matters, like the sustainable farming scheme and many other things, but I also spoke to farmers directly about it as well. I have farmers in my extended family as well who I’ve also had discussions with. They will be taking advice on this to see whether or not this does affect them. But in the absence of specific figures, because of all those complexities, I think the Treasury figures that have been presented about their estimate of the scale of farms that will be affected—. And bear in mind, there is a different structure, by and large, to farms in Wales.”
“Now, whilst there are indeed concerns about the impacts of changes to inheritance tax, specifically the agricultural property relief, and those are understandable, it’s certainly not helpful to speculate on numbers of affected farms given the many complex factors that are involved. Those include the farm ownership structures, the inheritance plans, the applicable reliefs that may apply, which all affect the application of APR. Farm values themselves also fluctuate, making it quite difficult to estimate how many are valued over the IHT threshold at any given point.”
“Laura, thank you for that question. Let me say where I am exactly. First of all, I think we should take real pride in the fact that, on 30 October, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, Rachel Reeves, presented the first ever UK budget by a female Chancellor in British history. It does represent, Laura, I must say, the first steps towards fixing 14 years' damage that has been caused to our public services and our communities by the previous Conservative UK Government. But, the Government have had to make some very tough decisions, addressing challenges inherited from the previous administration.”
“Since the UK Government published their budget on 30 October, Welsh Government officials have had numerous discussions with the UK Government on this matter.”
“Yes, Delyth, you’re absolutely right. And the biodiversity restoration piece goes hand in hand with the climate adaptation and resilience piece. We need to do both together. I had significant challenge from that committee when I set out our working timetable on bringing forward the targets. There is a rationale behind it, which I’m keen to share with the committee, but I’m also keen to come back in front of the committee and see whether—and it is the question I put back to my officials—we can expedite the progress towards bringing those targets earlier, whilst getting the right targets and making sure that they are the right targets and they’re well grounded in the evidence as well. So, let’s carry on that discussion. I was taken by the pushback from committee, from you and the Chair and others. So, let’s see where we get to.”
“Why is that significant?’ Because we in Wales, with the support of citizens in Wales, have changed our approach to single-use plastics. There was not a bit of plastic within it. It was all branded, recyclable material. I didn’t have to think about that; I just went and bought a cup of coffee, and there it was—Wales making a difference. And there’s the message this week as well, because we’re in climate week, because some of those climate change deniers will say, ‘What can Wales do?’ Well, we can change the world. We just have to show the leadership.”
“But I think, in this just transition piece, and bringing people with us, we also need to not just think about the scientific evidence that underpins how we get there, in the data driving towards reducing emissions and decarbonisation and so on, but we need to use the behavioural sciences and how we bring people with us, and where there are those nudges, regulations and other things making it easy for people to make the right choices. I got onto the train the other day going to the Netherlands—the train, there’s a choice; not a plane, a train. But when I got onto the train at Cardiff first thing in the morning, I picked up, from that kiosk we all know there, a coffee. I got onto that train, with the coffee in front of me and said to the colleague who was travelling with me, ‘Look at that.”
“Yes, thank you, Delyth. My predecessor was really pleased, with the support of colleagues as well, to establish that 2035 challenge group. They’ve done remarkable work, they really have. But even they recognise—and I pay tribute to Jane Davidson in chairing that, but also all the individuals who brought their ideas together—that there are parts of their proposals to get to 2035 net zero that will be incredibly challenging not just for Government, but for individuals. So, we are going to consider seriously everything that is within that report.”
“We are quietly confident that we’re on target to bring in Wales within carbon budget 2, in terms of where we are, but carbon budget 3, which we’re already working on—and we will need all of your support—will be like Eryri compared to the hill I walk up on the way back home every night. It will be a lot steeper.”
“We know the three biggest challenges for us in Wales are manufacturing and industry—and we want manufacturing and industry, but—actually helping them go through that transition towards a greener, fairer future; it's in transport, of course, and we need to bring forward that bus Bill, we need to invest in rail and we need to invest in walking and cycling as well and all those other modal shifts; and it's in agriculture, and the work we do with farmers not to farmers, so that we can help them so that we can help them build in climate resilience. But we need to drive those emissions down.”
“I was speaking to young people, as part of our, if you like, COP with young people, in the peace temple in Cathays Park today—hundreds of young children from across Wales; there's another event in Wrexham later on this week there—and they're absolutely driving us, in the same way, Delyth, that I've had those conversations with our UK Ministers to say, 'We will support you to show leadership, go further.' I'm delighted to see that—. I understand you've described it as a 'step'; I think it's, actually, a step change from what we've seen in recent years, to say an 81 per cent cut in emissions, and, yes, Wales will be not only at the table with UK Ministers in making sure that that fits in what we are doing.”
“Yes, absolutely. Thank you so much for raising this on the floor today in the middle of these hundreds of climate conversations that we're having right across Wales this week, with young people, older people, community groups, business, commerce, academics and so on. I've been deep in those conversations this week, and there is a serious acknowledgement across Welsh civic society of the way we need, individually and collectively, as Government and individual citizens, to step up to the mark so that we can deal with what is already locked in there, which is around 1.5 degrees and, actually, turn the dial back down and make sure that we can get ahead of this. And we can do it.”
“But now we need to look properly at, well, how do we make sure that the responsibilities and the liabilities that come from having a reservoir on your land—big and small—are properly accounted for. And yes, you raise the important point of orphan reservoirs, where they are left as stranded not assets but liabilities. Well, that's part of what we're looking at as well, how we deal with that. And I look forward to having the opportunity in front of the Senedd or in front of committees to engage in this in more detail.”
“But let me make it very clear: this cannot nor should not fall entirely on the taxpayer. If I owned a piece of land with a reservoir on it, grand or small, it is my liability within that. Now, there are ways in which we can assist, looking at this going forward. The other assurance I want to give, because there is a danger within this, particularly when we've seen some of the near-catastrophic incidents in other parts of the UK, is to give the assurance that NRW and the risk management authorities tightly monitor the condition of these reservoirs, so we're not looking at imminent danger or damage from any of these small or large reservoirs; they're tightly risk assessing them. That's why we know, by the way, where the risks are, same as with coal tips—the piece of work that we've done within Welsh Government.”
“Thank you, Janet. I'm worried, Llywydd, that we might run out of people to people these task and finish groups. We might run out of the great Welsh will to, actually, work with us on it. But, look, I do take the serious point behind this. This is the exact reason why we are doing this proper joined-up approach to look at it, because the same issues, by the way, are happening right over the border, the other side of Offa's Dyke. As a former Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs Minister with responsibility for this area, crikey, 15 years ago now, I'm very aware that we're facing the same challenges. So, I think the regulatory joint work that we're doing is the right way to do it. I look forward, if the Senedd or the committee looks at the issue of how we actually fund this, in ideas coming forward.”
“They know their responsibilities and their liabilities. But it's also those smaller landowners who have reservoirs. I noticed with interest recently there was an advertisement for a reservoir for sale—one that those of us within the south Wales area know quite well. It was pitched as a very attractive real estate proposition. We would hope that—what do we call them in this country; we don't call them real estate agents—[ Interruption .]—yes, indeed—those people who are selling the land are also making clear to the potential buyers that they are aware of the liabilities that come with taking on a property with a reservoir on it. Because it carries significant responsibilities.”
“Thank you, Janet. I absolutely stand by that. Anybody who owns a reservoir on their land, big or small, that is caught within the regulations needs to be very clear on their responsibilities. It's an onerous responsibility to take on the maintenance and the public safety aspects of actually having a reservoir on your land. Now, every landowner should be aware of those—they should be aware of them. But, if they're not, you, and I, and others, along with NRW, need to signal them directly, to make sure that they are aware of that and what that means. Because this is not only a case of public taxpayer money going towards the large assets that are controlled in different parts of Wales and England, it's also those large companies, such as Dŵr Cymru and others, who have large reservoir assets.”
“Now, this does cause major issues for all of our infrastructure, including reservoirs. So, we are keen to work with the UK Government on this jointly. It's a signal of the approach that we are taking now that we have a Government at the other end of the M4 that is willing to work with us on it. But, rest assured, there will be opportunities, undoubtedly, for the Senedd also to consider the way forward. We've started on the engagement with the UK Government, but we'll make sure those opportunities are here as well, for the committee, and for Senedd Members, Janet.”
“Thank you very much, Janet, for that question. Reservoir safety is a key issue for Welsh Government and the opportunity has arisen to work with the UK Government on an England-and-Wales basis to review the whole landscape of the regulation of reservoirs across England and Wales. And I think it’s right that we take that opportunity because, where there is a will to work across Governments and to make sure that we have a fit-for-purpose now and for the future, when, as you rightly say, we are facing, not just increased in rainfall but deluges—. As we look to the advice from the Met Office, we’re not only seeing increasing levels of rainfall, but rainfall that stops over areas, as we have seen recently, but not only, in the tragedies unfolding within Spain and other parts of central Europe.”
“So, we would definitely encourage initiatives like this. There are challenges in getting these off the ground and taking them from the early stages and growing them. But we’re keen to support, as I said in my response to Joel as well, where there is potential, to encourage and support them to get through those barriers and to grow in that context as well of the wider marine environment and marine planning as well. So, they need to be commercially viable—we’re certainly encouraging of them—and fit within our sustainability approach for fisheries and agriculture.”
“Joyce, thank you very much for that question and, again, I recognise your sustained advocacy for the potential of this sector and particularly for Câr-y-Môr. And indeed, Câr-y-Môr, the first commercial seaweed farm within Wales, located off Ramsey Sound in St David’s, interestingly, it is a community benefit society and it does have some exciting potential in terms of producing seaweed-based biofertilizer and livestock feed additives, and the potential of that in the reduction of methane as well. So, it is genuinely exciting, but they are at those early stages and there are challenges in bringing this forward. There can also be potential with bringing shellfish produce to the domestic market I understand, with a current capacity to process, I’m told, some four tonnes per day of fresh seaweed, and they are looking to expand further.”
“On a final point, our regular funding rounds through the Welsh marine and fisheries scheme, Joel, will be designed to underpin the priorities that help deliver those outcomes that we all want to see.”
“So, in the meantime, I expect our future direction to remain as we've already set out with the delivery of sustainable management at its core, and a focus on delivery of fisheries management plans and adapted management measures. All of this needs to be supported by the science and engagement with stakeholders. So, we will continue to deliver this in line with our statutory duties on fisheries and aquaculture. We will seek opportunities and initiatives to support the industry to develop and grow, but we need to see those proposals coming forward and the commercial viability of them, and them fitting in with our wider sustainability of the marine environment.”
“Thank you very much, Joel, and I notice your consistent advocacy for the potential of the seaweed sector for all of those diverse applications, which do have really exciting potential. We have noted there is significant interest in the potential benefits of seaweed farming, but—and it is a big 'but', Joel—we've yet to see this actually translated into viable projects and commercial propositions. And, of course, we also need to be cognisant of analysing that in terms of the wider marine environment and marine planning as well, if they were to come forward. But one thing that might be of help and that you could encourage, Joel, people to feed into—. I will be setting out a strategic approach to Welsh fisheries and aquaculture—via a written statement, Llywydd, if it receives your approbation as well—within the next few weeks.”
“There is significant interest in seaweed farming in Wales for a range of purposes. We are supportive of industry-led growth of the aquaculture sector and would welcome any proposals from industry that deliver growth in our coastal communities whilst aligning with the policies of the Welsh national marine plan.”
“It also, as you and I know, has those wider benefits, including regeneration of those lovely public open spaces on the front and the objectives, of course, are those of the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015. So, please urge your constituents to keep feeding in their thoughts on any disruption, but I'm told that both the contractor and the risk management authority really want to minimise it and to work with residents and businesses.”
“So, access to businesses remains open throughout the construction, I'm told, and deliveries are programmed as well to minimise disruption to the operation of those businesses. The contractors, I'm told, are also providing monthly drop-in sessions for businesses and for residents as well, but if I could urge any residents or businesses to get involved with those regular drop-in sessions and to feed back their views through the risk management authority and to the contractors. But can I simply say, Tom, as well, as you do—it was good to hear you welcome the works that are going on because they are much needed. It's protecting 126 properties at a cost of £26.5 million, which is 85 per cent funded by Welsh Government.”
“Thank you, it's a really important point, and you, like me, who love the Mumbles, recognise the importance of this work, and getting it done in a timely manner as well. It's a significant piece of work and it does cause disruption to some extent. Indeed, we understand that the risk management authority and also the contractors have acknowledged the impact of the construction within the community, and they're working with the community liaison officer to try and reduce the impacts. Now, the construction works have been programmed to try and reduce the impact to local businesses, even with regard to my comments there that they acknowledge that there is an impact, and also to residents to reduce the impact on residents.”
“Yes. The coastal risk management programme construction scheme at Mumbles is progressing at pace. The risk management authority have confirmed that the construction is due to complete in April 2025.”