YouSaid · the spoken record

Chris Voss

lines on the record: 140
first: 2023-03-10
most recent: 2023-03-10
sittings or episodes: 1
sources: podcast

Every line below is reproduced as it was said and linked to the record it came from. Nothing here is summarised or generated. Directory · Search · Corrections

“Now, governments want to make those kind of deals, that's fine as long as it, because that was basically a political negotiation. You're putting 5,000 Taliban back on a battlefield. That ain't negotiating with another government. You're putting five of them back on a battlefield. That ain't negotiating with another government that's directly contradicting this thing that you claimed. And those were all bad deals. Was the Brittany Griner thing a bad deal? I think it was great for her. If I was in the middle of it, it would have been better. And she still would have come home.”
2023-03-10 · Lex Fridman Podcast · #364 – Chris Voss: FBI Hostage Negotiator · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“First of all, I agree with the idea that she was wrongfully detained and that she didn't deserve to be in jail and that there should be no second-class citizens ever. And whether you're a WNBA player or you're just some bonehead that walked into the wrong situation, your government should not abandon you ever, ever. Now, what they do in the meantime, there should have been a negotiation. They were desperate to make a deal at a bad time. They'd been offered far better deals than prisoner swaps earlier and turned them down. And then he gets turned up. And thank God for Brittany Griner that the public got enough attention. They kept pressure on the administration. They made a deal.”
2023-03-10 · Lex Fridman Podcast · #364 – Chris Voss: FBI Hostage Negotiator · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“I'm familiar with what he signed. That's not what it says. Well, you know, and so the argument, but that's always been the soundbite that everybody likes. We don't negotiate with terrorists. Depends upon your definition of negotiation. If it's just communication, we negotiate with them all the time. Number one, and number two Like every president has made some boneheaded deal with the bad guys. Like Obama released five high-level Taliban leaders from Guantanamo in exchange for an A-wall soldier that we immediately threw in jail. And I thought that was a horrible deal. And that's putting terrorist attacks. And then Trump turned around and topped it by putting 5,000 terrorists back on the battlefield. So we haven't had a president that has stuck to that on either side of the aisle since people started throwing that out as a soundbite.”
2023-03-10 · Lex Fridman Podcast · #364 – Chris Voss: FBI Hostage Negotiator · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Well, that's not the policy, first of all. Now everybody thinks that's the policy. It hasn't been the policy since 2002 when Bush 43 signed a National Security Presidential Directive, NSPD, at the time it was NSPD-12. Which basically said. We won't make concessions. That doesn't mean we won't talk. So I'm in Columbia at the same time, and I have been intimately involved with the signing, him signing that document. I knew exactly what it said, and he didn't inherit it from somebody else. He signed. And I'm in Columbia and the number two in the embassy says last night on TV the president of the United States said we don't negotiate with terrorists. Are you calling a president of the United States a liar? Remember thinking like, all right, so He probably said that, and that's not on the document that he signed. I said, look, it, you know.”
2023-03-10 · Lex Fridman Podcast · #364 – Chris Voss: FBI Hostage Negotiator · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Started to experience, we got enough data back. To collaborate And we stopped listening to amygdala and we started listening to our gut.”
2023-03-10 · Lex Fridman Podcast · #364 – Chris Voss: FBI Hostage Negotiator · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“There's the switch like sort of what point of time do we catch on'cause the difference between survival and success minds Success mindset is highly optimistic. So, where do we switch, or how do we stay switched from survival to success? That's the challenge”
2023-03-10 · Lex Fridman Podcast · #364 – Chris Voss: FBI Hostage Negotiator · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“My description of it is the pessimistic caveman survived and we're descendants of the pessimists. Optimistic gag got eaten by a saber-through”
2023-03-10 · Lex Fridman Podcast · #364 – Chris Voss: FBI Hostage Negotiator · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“And in point of fact, that's the case. Although a lot of people want us to think otherwise Mostly because of the negativity that I was talking about before”
2023-03-10 · Lex Fridman Podcast · #364 – Chris Voss: FBI Hostage Negotiator · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Yeah, no kidding. I would agree. And then, yeah, thought provoking, because I consider myself The word I was looking for before is abundant. I think it's an abundant world. So I'm pretty optimistic. I consider myself, I don't know, happy exactly describes it, but yeah, you know, I'm a so then if I'm happy optimistic abundant, I got a worldview, and then you run into somebody that has a vastly different worldview, and they're happy and they think it's abundant too. And you're like, what is going on in your head or mine? Or what am I missing? Yes, that's fascinating”
2023-03-10 · Lex Fridman Podcast · #364 – Chris Voss: FBI Hostage Negotiator · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“I've been leafing through the different choices of the podcast. The young lady that OnlyFans and the sex workers, that's a fascinating human being. I want to know what makes that person tech at thousand percent.”
2023-03-10 · Lex Fridman Podcast · #364 – Chris Voss: FBI Hostage Negotiator · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“I would say seeking collaboration Because closure kind of puts a little bit of a finality to it. And the real problem in any negotiation is always implementation. Why we say yeses, I say yes is nothing without how. And yes, and its very best, it's only a temporary aspiration, it's aspirational, it's usually counterfeit. So if you're looking for...”
2023-03-10 · Lex Fridman Podcast · #364 – Chris Voss: FBI Hostage Negotiator · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“All right, so I'd make a tiny adjustment on the negotiation definition because you said, I think seeking closure. Use two words enclosure was one of them.”
2023-03-10 · Lex Fridman Podcast · #364 – Chris Voss: FBI Hostage Negotiator · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Experiments that I've seen have been when the negativity was inflicted and then having a person that it was being inflicted upon simply identify it. Yeah, what are you feeling? I'm angry, and the anger goes away.”
2023-03-10 · Lex Fridman Podcast · #364 – Chris Voss: FBI Hostage Negotiator · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“I could say, look, I don't want you to be offended by what I'm getting ready to say. A denial. Your guard is up, you're getting ready to get mad. I say what I'm getting ready to say is probably going to offend you. You relax a little bit and you go, all right, what is it? And then I say it, whatever it is, and you're going to be like, oh, that wasn't that bad. Knew from Hostage's negotiation by calling out the negativity, deactivate it, and then a number of neuroscience experiments have been done right and left by calling out negativity, deactivating the negativity.”
2023-03-10 · Lex Fridman Podcast · #364 – Chris Voss: FBI Hostage Negotiator · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Backed up by neuroscience. Another reason why I listened to Andrew Huberman's podcast all the time. Heavy, heavy, heavy on the neuroscience. And so then emotional intelligence calibrated by what we know about neuroscience. What do we know about neuroscience? And I'll talk about it from a layman's perspective and even say we as an arrogant thing, you know, human beings. I didn't do the research. I'm scooping up as much of it as I can as a layman. The brain's largely negative. I think there's ample evidence. People would argue with you as to what the wiring is and what does what. And the limbic system and all of that, but. The brain is basically 75% negative. As an alayment, I make that contention. Number one, number two. Best way to deactivate negativity is by calling it out.”
2023-03-10 · Lex Fridman Podcast · #364 – Chris Voss: FBI Hostage Negotiator · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“I always hated the term active listening. If anything it's proactive. And as soon as you start trying to anticipate where somebody's going, you're dialed in more. Because along the way, either you congratulate yourself for being right Or when suddenly they say something that surprises you, you really notice it. Like, that's not what I expected. You dialed in, you're listening. So it's proactive. One of the reasons we named the book Tactical Empathy name the book never split the difference, but we're talking about tactical empathy. Calibrated emotional intelligence. What's it calibrated by? First, it was experiences hostage negotiators, but and we've come to find out that our experience as hostage negotiators”
2023-03-10 · Lex Fridman Podcast · #364 – Chris Voss: FBI Hostage Negotiator · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Upon when you showed it. Are you arguing from the beginning or are you displaying understanding from the beginning? I don't think it stops you from being adversarial. That was the thing about... Manukans, the chapter in his book, The Tension Between Empathy and Assertiveness. I remember reading that name of the chapter thinking like, you know In my business, there is no tension. And then I got into it and I read I thought this is red herring. He's drawing people in because his entire chapter is that empathy puts you in a position to assert and that there is no tension. It's a sequencing issue. And that's why, again, I think it was written for lawyers”
2023-03-10 · Lex Fridman Podcast · #364 – Chris Voss: FBI Hostage Negotiator · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Tough to do to find out what their vision of the future is and then remove yourself as a threat. If we can collaborate together All. If you think that I could do anything at all to help you to that point, you know, integrity is my currency. Not gonna lie to you, which gets back before that I lied to you about whether or not I'm on your side. You know, right now, at the moment, we're on opposite size defense Not going to stop us from being together in the future. Inside, you're going to say, well, well, you didn't lie to me about today. Maybe you won't lie to me about tomorrow.”
2023-03-10 · Lex Fridman Podcast · #364 – Chris Voss: FBI Hostage Negotiator · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“These people are knocking themselves out for a place in paradise, a vision of the future. What you will go through today if the future portends what you want, you'll go through incredible things today. So it's a vision of the future”
2023-03-10 · Lex Fridman Podcast · #364 – Chris Voss: FBI Hostage Negotiator · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“10 years, 20 years from now, and let's work our way back. Now, hostage negotiator, same thing. Call into a bank Bad guy picked up on the picks up on the phone. And I'm going to say, I want you to live. I want to see you survive this Know whatever else goes with that? Let's pick a point in the future that we're both good with. And then we work our way back. And people make also, we were talking before about emotion and what you care about, people make their decisions based on their vision of the future. Without question, I think there's a Hindu temple in the United States. Has been or being assembled the same way that the Hindu temples were in India a thousand years ago by hand, volunteers, by hand.”
2023-03-10 · Lex Fridman Podcast · #364 – Chris Voss: FBI Hostage Negotiator · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Yeah. And then I saw him do it in simulations. I was teaching at USC. We are at a function together, and a gentleman at that time told me who he was and he was really influential. So I walked up to the guy cold and I said, hey, you know, I'm gonna come in and talk to my class at USC. He didn't know me other than the fact that we had mutual acquaintance and he graciously consented to come in. And he said, What do you want me to talk about? And I said, Look, dude, just from your success here, it doesn't matter what you talk about. Either I'm going to agree or I'm going to disagree or I'm going to learn from it. My students are going to learn from it. So students want to role play with them. They dispute. Let's do a negotiation every single time you go to pick a point in the future. Where we're both happy.”
2023-03-10 · Lex Fridman Podcast · #364 – Chris Voss: FBI Hostage Negotiator · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“The same planet Several years ago, and his name is evidently been Mud now, but he was very nice to me, lawyer here in town named Tom Gerardi, and no shortage of bad reporting on him now. I have absolutely no idea if any of it's true. I do know that in my interaction with him, he was always a gentleman to me and was very generous. When he'd get into conversations with people, he'd always say, You know, let's look at 10 years from now. Where we could both be in a phenomenal place together. Work our way back from there.”
2023-03-10 · Lex Fridman Podcast · #364 – Chris Voss: FBI Hostage Negotiator · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“I think people, my experience as a layman is that empathy's not got a downside, that you don't need me to act like I'm on your side for us to make a great deal.”
2023-03-10 · Lex Fridman Podcast · #364 – Chris Voss: FBI Hostage Negotiator · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“But if we're talking about am I on your side now as a human being, I want to see you survive and thrive, not at my expense. I think the world is full of opportunity. I'm optimistic. I get more than enough reason for saying that. It is enough for here for both of us. So I got no problem with you getting yours. You know, just don't take it out of my hide. And I'm going to be honest about it, about both of those things. I'm not interested in you taking it out of my hide. I think there's plenty here for both of us. I don't need to be on your side except in a human. But I don't do I have to side with you over the war now or Howard distributing the stock or how much you get paid or how much you make off this car.”
2023-03-10 · Lex Fridman Podcast · #364 – Chris Voss: FBI Hostage Negotiator · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Know that's what most people They're really learning the concept, that's the basic human reaction. In application, especially in highly adversarial situations. I need regular guy, Muslim. But how's that guy going to say buy it if I like, you know, dude, I'm on your side? I've been there. I feel you. No, no, no, no, no. People get conned by that so much. Like if we're on opposite sides of the table and I try to act like I'm not on the opposite side of the table, that makes me disingenuous So I would rather Be honest, my currency is integrity. And at some point in time, you go, like, you know where I'm coming from? My answer is going to be like, look. I can agree on maybe where we're going.”
2023-03-10 · Lex Fridman Podcast · #364 – Chris Voss: FBI Hostage Negotiator · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“But I showed him that I wasn't afraid of their beliefs. I was so unafraid of them that I was willing to just state them and not disagree or contradict. Because I would say that and then I'd shut up and let him react. And I never had to say, here's why you're wrong. I never gave my point of view. Every single one of them that testified, that's empathy, not agreeing with where the other side is coming from. Now, I'm not sure how Sam would define it, but common vernacular is its sympathy and its compassion. And that's when it becomes useless.”
2023-03-10 · Lex Fridman Podcast · #364 – Chris Voss: FBI Hostage Negotiator · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Civilian court, terrorism does not have to be tried in military tribunals. That's a very bad idea. It was always bad. The FBI was always against it. Getting ready, we have Muslims testifying in open court against a legitimate Muslim cleric. The guy that was on trial had the credentials as a legitimate Muslim cleric. The people that were testifying against him didn't think he should be advocating murder of innocent people. We'd sit down with them, Arab Muslims, Egyptians, mostly. And I would say to them, You believe that there's been a succession of American governments for the last 200 years that are anti-Islamic. They'd shake their head and go. That be the start of the conversation. That's empathy. You believe this to be the case. I never said I agreed. I never said I disagreed.”
2023-03-10 · Lex Fridman Podcast · #364 – Chris Voss: FBI Hostage Negotiator · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“And the way you feed your people is via an industry that the entire world is trying to quit. The whole world is trying to get out of fossil fuels. If that's how you feed your people, if you don't come up with an answer to that, the people that you've taken a responsibility for are going to die alone in the cold and the dark. They're going to freeze and they're going to die. So that doesn't mean that I agree with where he's coming from or any of his means. How does this guy see things in his distorted word? Never going to get through to somebody like that in a conversation unless you can demonstrate to them you understand where they're coming from, whether or not you agree. Early 90s, last century. I'm a last century guy. I'm an old dude. Refer to myself as a last century guy, also a deeply flawed human. So Tara's case, New York City.”
2023-03-10 · Lex Fridman Podcast · #364 – Chris Voss: FBI Hostage Negotiator · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Tactical empath So, Bob's definition of empathy said not agreeing. Or even liking the other side. Even got to like them. Don't got to agree with them. Just straight. Understanding where they're coming from and articulating it, which requires no agreement whatsoever. That becomes a very powerful tool, like ridiculously powerful, and if sympathy or compassion or agreement are not included, you can be empathic with anybody. I was thinking about this. When I was getting ready to sit down and talk to you because you use the word empathy a lot. I can be empathic with Putin. Easy. It's easy. I don't agree with where he's coming from. I don't agree with his methodology. Early on Ukraine-Russian war, I saw an article that was very dismissive of Russia That said Russia's basically Europe's gas station. I thought, So if you're in charge”
2023-03-10 · Lex Fridman Podcast · #364 – Chris Voss: FBI Hostage Negotiator · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“And Bob writes in his book, Bob was the head of the program on negotiation. He's also agreed to be interviewed for a documentary about me and my company that hasn't been released yet, but it should be released sometime this year.”
2023-03-10 · Lex Fridman Podcast · #364 – Chris Voss: FBI Hostage Negotiator · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Right, so I like etymology. Where did something come from? Also like entomology. Anyway, etymology. My understanding from my research. The original definition of empathy was an interpretation of a German word where people were trying to figure out what the artist was trying to convey. It was about assessing art. And so it was always about understanding where somebody was coming from, but not sharing necessarily. The same thing. So then when I was with the FBI and I first started collaborating with Harvard, Bob Manukan wrote, Beyond winning, second chapters The tension between empathy and assertiveness is Still the best chapter on empathy I've ever read anywhere.”
2023-03-10 · Lex Fridman Podcast · #364 – Chris Voss: FBI Hostage Negotiator · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Yeah, you know, if he eats Adolf Hitler, you know, it's going to leave a bad taste in your mouth, even if you're a shark. So you're making up your mind on every circumstance based on what you care about. So then what does that do to reason? Your reason is based on what you care about from the beginning. Now, then empathy. If you define it as sympathy, which it was never meant to be sympathy, ever. Etymology, I think is the word. I keep getting etymology and entomology mixed up. Etymology being, right, where words came from, the origin, entomology being bugs.”
2023-03-10 · Lex Fridman Podcast · #364 – Chris Voss: FBI Hostage Negotiator · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Let's draw some fine lines there. And the two fine lines I would draw is first, what is your definition of empathy? And then secondly, how do people actually make up their minds? And I'm going to flip it. I'm going to go with how people make up their minds. You make up your mind based on what you care about. That makes. Reason emotion based. What do you care about? You start with what you care about. You see some guy swimming out in off the coast of the ocean, and you see a shark coming up behind him. Who are you cheering for If it's Adolf Hitler out there, you're cheering for the shark. You might actually feel bad for the shark because it's going to taste bad. Who do you care about”
2023-03-10 · Lex Fridman Podcast · #364 – Chris Voss: FBI Hostage Negotiator · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Like, I'd work minimum wage to follow him around Know that would be worth it. What are the value other than the dollars? And how hard is it to get the dollars? And how quickly can you get to them? These are all things that the bad guys are good in kidnapping are good at figuring out. So the value of human life to them is going to be what can they get a crazy thing in the kidnap business. We used to get asked by FBI leadership. When is this going to be over? And the answer would be when the bad guys feel like they've gotten everything they can. Now dissecting that statement you talking about when they feel like they got everything they can. So the key to kidnapping negotiations are the feelings of the bad guys. We're talking about feelings. Kidnappers feelings, which drives everything. Doesn't matter what human endeavor it is.”
2023-03-10 · Lex Fridman Podcast · #364 – Chris Voss: FBI Hostage Negotiator · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“It's nice project present for me. Yeah, nice job. Thank you. But empathy is in the eye of the beholder in every negotiation, whether it's over car, a house, collaboration in your company with the bad guys. How does the other side see it? Now, the nice thing about kidnapping for ransom, if there's an actual ransom demand, it's an actual demand. It's a mercenary's business. They're going to take what they could get. And they tend to be really good at figuring out how much money somebody has. And again, I'll keep drawing business analogies. You're looking for a job with an employer. There's market price of the job, and then there's what the employer can pay you. Now maybe the market price of the job market's $150 grand. Employer can pay one hundred twenty. But it's a great job. You know, we're talking about Elon a minute ago.”
2023-03-10 · Lex Fridman Podcast · #364 – Chris Voss: FBI Hostage Negotiator · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Yeah, it's like beauty sitting out of the beholder. So that was the first lesson on any hostage negotiations, really any negotiation. Like it doesn't matter what it is to you, it matters what it is to the other side. One of the things, especially in your conversation I listened to with Andrew, by the way, you guys, another thing I really liked about that conversation, first of all, I think the world hem.”
2023-03-10 · Lex Fridman Podcast · #364 – Chris Voss: FBI Hostage Negotiator · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Bad guys picked the med They're making statements in the media. And that's a big clue. Their channel of choice tells you an awful lot. And if they're choosing the media, then that means there's people are trying to appeal to. That means in their view, there's such a thing as good media. So if there's good media, there's bad media. How do you make it bad? And we made it bad for him. It just, unfortunately, it had to go through a number of iterations before they got the message and quit.”
2023-03-10 · Lex Fridman Podcast · #364 – Chris Voss: FBI Hostage Negotiator · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“And you got to be honest with them. It's a long shot. Our chances here are slim and none. And when it's slim and none, I'll take slim, but it's still very, very slim. And there were a number of people that were killed in that time frame before the tide finally got turned. And it was hard dealing with families at the time.”
2023-03-10 · Lex Fridman Podcast · #364 – Chris Voss: FBI Hostage Negotiator · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“You just, even if you wanted to do, you couldn't do. So then, what makes that very difficult is kidnappings especially. You're working with family members. Bad guys are in touch with family members, or if they're not directly in touch with family members, the other thing that Al-Qaeda was doing at that time was they didn't give us a way to talk to him. They're making statements in the media, but then not leaving their phone number, if you will So that's one more thing. They're intentionally blocking you. They're asking you to do something you can't do. They're not giving you a way to talk to them. So you got to get with the family and discuss with the family how you're going to approach things. Now, the family definitely wants to know, is this going to help? There's a bunch of cases like that in that time frame.”
2023-03-10 · Lex Fridman Podcast · #364 – Chris Voss: FBI Hostage Negotiator · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“If they want to make it look like they're negotiating, but they're not. Like in the 2004 timeframe, Al-Qaeda in Iraq was executing people on camera for the publicity. And they wanted to make it look like they were negotiating. So they'd come on and they say, if you don't get all the women out of Iraqi women out of the jails in Iraq in 72 hours, we're going to kill a hostage. Was one of the demands in one of the cases in that timeframe. First of all, even if we'd have been willing, the US government coalition would have been willing to do that, it wouldn't have been able to happen in 72 hours. So, is it an impossible ask from the beginning? So then that looks really bad. Like they're trying to make it look like they're talking reasonably, but they're not. So your hostage is in bad shape there. If they made a demand.”
2023-03-10 · Lex Fridman Podcast · #364 – Chris Voss: FBI Hostage Negotiator · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source