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Miatta Fahnbulleh

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55
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2026-05-15
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2026-05-15
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  1. “The idea that politics is about service and that we are trying to drive change, and I'm glad that they're holding me to account.”

    2026-05-15 · Political Thinking with Nick Robinson · Why the PM has to go: Miatta Fahnbulleh on being the first minister to break with Starmer · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source

  2. “Definitely my kids. So it is brilliant. So I've got twins that are eight years old and I've got an 11 year old and they are so switched on. And I remember when I became an MP, I kind of told them what I was doing and became a minister and I told them. And they were let off a little bit now. But I remember my first eight months, literally every week they'd be like, what have you done? What have you achieved for the people of Peckham? What have you done for the country? Yeah, absolutely. And so I'd have to explain to them. I remember this moment, I was in the car with the kids, and this was the time. We were listening to the radio, and I remember Energy Bills had unfortunately gone down. And my son looked at me and he's like, isn't it your job to get energy bills down? Are you failing? And I was just like, give us time. Four or five weeks into the job. So they keep me honest, but they have, I'm proud that we've sort of imparted to them.”

    2026-05-15 · Political Thinking with Nick Robinson · Why the PM has to go: Miatta Fahnbulleh on being the first minister to break with Starmer · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source

  3. “Well, so this week has been tough. This is not us. We don't do this as the Labour Party. What I would say is we're all mortified. I promise you we're all mortified. We'll only do this once. And I think the Labour Party, we don't change our leaders. It takes a lot for people like me to turn to someone who is a good guy, who's trying to do his best for the country, who we all have a lot of gratitude and respect for. This is a hard thing that we are doing and we're doing it because we see that it is not just existential for the party, but this is make or break for our communities. And so We do it, but we do it once. We will not do this again. We are not the”

    2026-05-15 · Political Thinking with Nick Robinson · Why the PM has to go: Miatta Fahnbulleh on being the first minister to break with Starmer · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source

  4. “So I think it's existential, but I am optimistic, and I'm optimistic for two reasons. In the end, I think we've got brilliant colleagues and they will rally. And ultimately, I come back to the thing I've said the Labour Party has always been the driver of progressive change. And now more than ever we need this. And so it's not just about party, it is about country, and the stakes are so high that I know that not just my colleagues, but all of our activists, our trade unions, we will rally because we cannot, we cannot fail.”

    2026-05-15 · Political Thinking with Nick Robinson · Why the PM has to go: Miatta Fahnbulleh on being the first minister to break with Starmer · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source

  5. “I think that is Andy. I think that is Angela. I think that could be Wes. I think we have people that could do it. But yeah, I think Andy Burnham has shown in Greater Manchester how he can unite our coalition.”

    2026-05-15 · Political Thinking with Nick Robinson · Why the PM has to go: Miatta Fahnbulleh on being the first minister to break with Starmer · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source

  6. “So, my sense is that we need a politician that can set out a vision, because in the end, people are going to the extremes because they are just sick and tired of the status quo. You don't beat Nigel Farage with status quo politics. You beat Nigel Farage with disruptive, this is how we change the deal because the deal's not working for all of you. And then we need a politician that can reach hearts and minds. Because at the moment, people are desperately skeptical about politics and politicians. And the ability to connect emotionally and say, we get it. We get that life is tough and we got your back.”

    2026-05-15 · Political Thinking with Nick Robinson · Why the PM has to go: Miatta Fahnbulleh on being the first minister to break with Starmer · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source

  7. “So look, I think Nigel is actually very beatable because in the end, it's a politics of division. I don't really know what he would do to change the economic settlement. I look at the ideas that come out of reform. I don't think privatizing the NHS is the thing that's going to help our communities.”

    2026-05-15 · Political Thinking with Nick Robinson · Why the PM has to go: Miatta Fahnbulleh on being the first minister to break with Starmer · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source

  8. “And the fact that she has survived the labour movement, the trade union movement and risen to where she has from her background, so she's absolutely formidable. And the reason I talk about all of them is the Labour Party is filled with superstars, which is why I am confident that we can step up to the challenge that the country has set us, because we've got some brilliant people. We need them to come together, and then we need to crack on and deliver for the country.”

    2026-05-15 · Political Thinking with Nick Robinson · Why the PM has to go: Miatta Fahnbulleh on being the first minister to break with Starmer · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source

  9. “Yet, look, I think Ed is brilliant, and he is someone that has always had a really clear analysis of the political economy, of the economic settlement. You know, he was the phrase many few. I remember my first week in the job, and this was my first exposure to politics. For many, not the victim. For many, not the few. And I remember going into a meeting with a whole lot of advisors trying to talk about energy and what we were going to do on energy. And the first 10 minutes, they had different versions of talking about many, few, few, many, the squeeze middle. And I didn't clue it about any of it. But the first articulation of the fact that the economy's not working for people and actually that squeezed middle and bottom, we need a different settlement. He started that and he has been clear about his conviction up to then. Angela is an absolutely phenomenal politician, has brilliant political instincts.”

    2026-05-15 · Political Thinking with Nick Robinson · Why the PM has to go: Miatta Fahnbulleh on being the first minister to break with Starmer · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source

  10. “I don't think you can have a leadership race without him in because I think he commands so much support within the labour movement and I think he is a popular politician and if he wants to be part of that I think he should be allowed to be part of that and then let's have the battle of ideas and the thing I'd say is We're all elected on that manifesto. No one is going to deviate from it. But you know in it is a really ambitious project. There's an ambitious version of the manifesto, there's anemic version of that manifesto. And I want everyone to say how are they going to deliver it in the most ambitious way where we've got a country that is hurting, where communities are helped back people are frustrated and they're angry and we need not incremental tinkering but fundamental change to the economic settlement. I want to hear who has that plan, who has that vision and then we rally around that.”

    2026-05-15 · Political Thinking with Nick Robinson · Why the PM has to go: Miatta Fahnbulleh on being the first minister to break with Starmer · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source

  11. “No, I think he would be candidly. I mean, I think he is a great politician. I think he is empathetic. He does heart as well as head. He has that emotional connection. He has shown he's got a clear vision and project in Greater Manchester. So of course he will. But I say that also knowing that we've got some other brilliant people in our front prevention, our PLP that might want to put themselves forward. And the key for me, and this is the final thing I'll say, I get frustrated as someone that's come into politics that politics has become so much about the personalities and I think it's about the what, not the who. What is the project? What are you trying to do for the country? How are you going to drive the change that people are absolutely demanding? We need people to set out their stalls and then decide who is best to take us forward based on that.”

    2026-05-15 · Political Thinking with Nick Robinson · Why the PM has to go: Miatta Fahnbulleh on being the first minister to break with Starmer · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source

  12. “Think, well, I think it shows an interesting economic model and the sorts of things. We've got a little experiment about what it looks like to try and do economics in a different way at that level that potentially could be translated to the national level.”

    2026-05-15 · Political Thinking with Nick Robinson · Why the PM has to go: Miatta Fahnbulleh on being the first minister to break with Starmer · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source

  13. “So I think he has, and I've followed the history of Greater Manchester. I was there when I was an official. Our first deal was with Greater Manchester, where we created the Manchester Mayor. And to watch that journey, what devolution has done and decisions that have been made at that level? And the fact that Greater Manchester is the fastest growing city region in the country suggests that you can have a vision, you can have a project, and you can execute it in a way that can lift your communities up. And I think that is compelling.”

    2026-05-15 · Political Thinking with Nick Robinson · Why the PM has to go: Miatta Fahnbulleh on being the first minister to break with Starmer · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source

  14. “So that wasn't my. You were in the room, I wasn't. Having spoken to him because we ended up working very closely together on devolution when I was the minister there. And I did ask about this as an economist. And look, I think the argument he was making is... Absolutely, you recognize that the markets are there, and for all the reasons I've talked about, they want to be clear that there is a plan. But the key thing is you cannot be so constrained that you can't make the political decisions that drive change. And he will often use the example of the buses, where he says, look,”

    2026-05-15 · Political Thinking with Nick Robinson · Why the PM has to go: Miatta Fahnbulleh on being the first minister to break with Starmer · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source

  15. “Through any Parliament because the circumstances change, so you should change whether circumstances change. Senate for five years, adjust it after the end of that parliament for the next five years, and you execute it. But once there is a plan, there is transparency around the plan, it is rational, and it looks like you will follow through the markets will stick with you.”

    2026-05-15 · Political Thinking with Nick Robinson · Why the PM has to go: Miatta Fahnbulleh on being the first minister to break with Starmer · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source

  16. “So look, I think the Chancellor has done that insofar as there was a decision made that we had to invest in things like the green economy or our roads or our infrastructure and therefore the rules were adjusted to allow you to do that. I often say to people, and I always used to tease when I was at the New Economics Foundation, I think George Osborne changed his fiscal rules about 20 times in the space of eight years. And the markets didn't freak out because ultimately you need a rational reason for why you are doing the things that you're doing. And you need to show that you've got the credibility to show it through. And so for me, I always come back to set out your framework, which Rachel has done. Be really transparent about the rationale for it and why you're trying to do the things that you're trying to do. And if they believe that you've got a credible plan to get from A to B, whatever A to B is, and I think it has to just...”

    2026-05-15 · Political Thinking with Nick Robinson · Why the PM has to go: Miatta Fahnbulleh on being the first minister to break with Starmer · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source

  17. “So they're looking at the fact that our debt ratio is high and they are pricing that in. So for me, the key thing, and this is where I do think the Chancellor has got it right, you have to say this is the plan. And actually what the plan looks like, it can vary from government to government. And if you look at the last, you know, from Gordon Brown through to George Osborne through to now, your fiscal framework has changed. But you need to show we get it. There is a plan to get it down and then you need to show, and the bit about stability is like we are determined to execute that plan, whatever it is.”

    2026-05-15 · Political Thinking with Nick Robinson · Why the PM has to go: Miatta Fahnbulleh on being the first minister to break with Starmer · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source

  18. “That's basically it. And the thing I would say is ultimately what all of those actors who don't act in concert, what they care about is that your debt is sustainable so that you don't default because then they lose money, and that you've got a plan when debt is high, which it is, and obviously I would blame the Tories for that, so you'd expect nothing else. But when it's high, that you've got a plan to get it down. And I don't think anyone can resolve from that. But the key bit for me is that you have a plan. And I found the debate around the bond market fascinating because you can barely breathe and people are talking about the bond market. And I'm like, these investors are investing in multiple countries. They're not looking at the minutiae of what's happening in the UK and whether the Prime Minister sneezes or not and whether that has an impact on the bond market.”

    2026-05-15 · Political Thinking with Nick Robinson · Why the PM has to go: Miatta Fahnbulleh on being the first minister to break with Starmer · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source

  19. “No, but look, as an economist, I found the politicization, if I can use it like that, of the bond markets absolutely fascinating. Because what are we talking about, right? The bond markets are individuals, they're pension funds, their insurance companies, and there are governments from abroad that are choosing to buy government guilds or sell government guilds.”

    2026-05-15 · Political Thinking with Nick Robinson · Why the PM has to go: Miatta Fahnbulleh on being the first minister to break with Starmer · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source

  20. “Look, I think the Labour Party is, and there is a lot of conversation around this question, and actually, for me, I see it through the lens of cohesion and integration. And of course there's an economic part of this, but this is about community and the society that we are. And I think that is, you've got to be able to confront that. You know, I always use this. In what world did we think it was okay to plonk asylum hotels and communities without asking the local authority or without seeking the consent of the community? And then we wonder why there are community tensions. So there is something real here and it is about the feel and look of our communities and people generally scared about change, particularly when the change they are feeling is not impacting them in a good place. And it's not necessarily the fault of the migrants. And I say that as a migrant, but the combination of the two, and it is about the cultural, it is about the sense of community identity as well as the economics, and we have to deal with all of it.”

    2026-05-15 · Political Thinking with Nick Robinson · Why the PM has to go: Miatta Fahnbulleh on being the first minister to break with Starmer · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source

  21. “And there is a really fine line. And how we build our communities up so people empowered and confident and they themselves know what is the threshold that we are crossing and why should I speak up in solidarity with others?”

    2026-05-15 · Political Thinking with Nick Robinson · Why the PM has to go: Miatta Fahnbulleh on being the first minister to break with Starmer · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source

  22. “So, my view is government needs to be really careful when it treads in this area because we can be heavy-handed and it can backfire. Actually, our strongest break is when people in communities stand up for, I say brothers and sisters, your neighbours, your fellow people and say this is not okay. Treat others as you would want to be treated. And I think that is far more powerful. So, you know, we've all been there where you were in a room with someone and they say that thing that you're like, oh, that's just and whether you speak up or not, that is the defining issue. And too often, I think people like, well, I'm hearing it so often. Is it even worth? And you have to call it out every single time.”

    2026-05-15 · Political Thinking with Nick Robinson · Why the PM has to go: Miatta Fahnbulleh on being the first minister to break with Starmer · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source

  23. “The work that we have to do to firstly build the resilience of our communities so that difference is not something to be scared of and difference is not something to be exploited. And that only happens where people from different backgrounds come together. But that bit which is absolutely express your views. But when that moves to being threatening, when that means that you have no care or consideration for the impact it has for your neighbours and your community, there is something not right there. And up to now, and this is where we need to get to, there was always a community break. It was the neighbor next door that said, hey, don't say that to my Pakistani neighbour or my Pakistani or my black friend or my Jewish friend. And that bit, how do you rebuild our collective sense of what is acceptable and what is not acceptable is a bit that we have to work on. And government has to form.”

    2026-05-15 · Political Thinking with Nick Robinson · Why the PM has to go: Miatta Fahnbulleh on being the first minister to break with Starmer · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source

  24. “Look, I think it's a really fine line that we have to cross, and I will always, always defend free speech and the freedom of protest. And I say that as someone that has come from a country where that was something that cost people's lives. You take it for granted until it's not there. And I think it has to be sacroscent, but, but”

    2026-05-15 · Political Thinking with Nick Robinson · Why the PM has to go: Miatta Fahnbulleh on being the first minister to break with Starmer · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source

  25. “Worry for my children And so I think it is the most important issue that we have to grapple with. And actually, coming into the brief, and I had understood it personally, I had understood it intellectually. And actually sitting there and looking at where we were and how much work there is to do to knit our communities together, one, but also there was just the things that were unsayable. People maybe thought them. They say them now and they're acting on them. And that wasn't the way it was. And so how you shift that and put that back, I don't know.”

    2026-05-15 · Political Thinking with Nick Robinson · Why the PM has to go: Miatta Fahnbulleh on being the first minister to break with Starmer · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source

  26. “Multiple community. I'm hearing it from the Jewish community. I'm hearing it from the Muslim community. And it took me back. And, you know, we talk about social cohesion. It's a kind of techie word no one really sort of understands. The visceral impact that it's having on our communities at the moment, where people are going out of their homes and they're looking behind their shoulders for the first time. And I say that as a black person. And even I have that sense of worry. You know, you're in a crowd, you look around. I didn't feel like that five, ten years ago.”

    2026-05-15 · Political Thinking with Nick Robinson · Why the PM has to go: Miatta Fahnbulleh on being the first minister to break with Starmer · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source

  27. “I think it is one of the biggest challenges that we have. And you sort of intellectualize it. You understand it's an issue. And actually, one of the privileges of doing that particular job is I got to spend a lot of time talking to people in our Jewish community, our Muslim community, our Sikh community, and the fear, the anxiety. You know, when I had people saying to me for the first time, I'm wondering whether I can stay in this country. I'm wondering whether my children can grow up in this country.”

    2026-05-15 · Political Thinking with Nick Robinson · Why the PM has to go: Miatta Fahnbulleh on being the first minister to break with Starmer · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source

  28. “So I remember the period around the coup because I have this very vivid memory and I was very young then. But I remember being underneath the bed and I remember hearing gunshots. And I remember just a period where things moved really quickly. We knew we had to get out of the country and we went to Sierra Leone where my parents had hoped. That's where my mum was from. And they hoped that we could settle there. you know politics follows you and the guns follow you so we had to leave um west africa but as and it's more for feeling like i remember that sense of deep insecurity i remember that sense that something wasn't right and that sticks with you That sticks with you”

    2026-05-15 · Political Thinking with Nick Robinson · Why the PM has to go: Miatta Fahnbulleh on being the first minister to break with Starmer · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source

  29. “I mean, that's actually a rather English understatement. It's an English understatement. So he had to get us all out because we were at the top of the hit list at the time. This was just after the coup.”

    2026-05-15 · Political Thinking with Nick Robinson · Why the PM has to go: Miatta Fahnbulleh on being the first minister to break with Starmer · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source

  30. “So, one of the things I'd say if you think about African politics and actually where we are now is the middle classes, the wealthy live comfortable lives, but you are surrounded by heartbreaking levels of poverty. And even from a very young age, I sort of remember that. The people, you walk out your door and you see people who can barely scrape two things together and that kind of sticks with you. And then you come here and my parents had to flee. We had to flee because my dad, a little bit like me, was very outspoken. He couldn't hold his tongue and that got him to a fair bit of trouble. And so we had to flee on pain of our lives.”

    2026-05-15 · Political Thinking with Nick Robinson · Why the PM has to go: Miatta Fahnbulleh on being the first minister to break with Starmer · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source

  31. “You joke, but seriously. So I grew up with it, and I grew up with that sense of, you know, that sense that we are all here to make a contribution, however small or large. It's important to see things as it is, to diagnose them, and to try and act if you can act.”

    2026-05-15 · Political Thinking with Nick Robinson · Why the PM has to go: Miatta Fahnbulleh on being the first minister to break with Starmer · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source

  32. “Well, so when we were younger in West Africa, absolutely. In England less so. Actually, it was always very, it was always a very personal political conversation as a family and about issues. We rarely sort of sat round and talked about e-senders to the table. What did you do instead of East Denders? I mean, we were neo-endocramous things.”

    2026-05-15 · Political Thinking with Nick Robinson · Why the PM has to go: Miatta Fahnbulleh on being the first minister to break with Starmer · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source

  33. “Seven eight? I mean, from a young age, we sat there. Yeah, no, we would sit, you know, but even when we came to the UK, you know, there were always conversations about the struggles. And that went from the very specific in Liberia through to Africa, through to the development world, through to the working class. And that very much shaped my politics.”

    2026-05-15 · Political Thinking with Nick Robinson · Why the PM has to go: Miatta Fahnbulleh on being the first minister to break with Starmer · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source

  34. “Yep, absolutely. So, you know, we were a very political family. My father, my grandfather, and then my father was in politics in Liberia, now politics in Africa is difficult and chaotic and brutal and impassioned. And this was the time when the history of Liberia is a very interesting one where we had liberated slaves that came and made Liberia their home. But there was a big indigenous population there. And the people that came to seek freedom then essentially ran an oligarchy to the detriment of the indigenous community. And so a lot of the politics then was how you break away from that. And my father bought a lot of that at the table. So, you know, we...”

    2026-05-15 · Political Thinking with Nick Robinson · Why the PM has to go: Miatta Fahnbulleh on being the first minister to break with Starmer · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source

  35. “It is, it is. And what I would say candidly is, of course, politicians Of course, politicians have the power. I think there is something around the collective clarity to drive things in a particular direction and be able to get to A to B and to sometimes break some eggs and to innovate and to do things differently.”

    2026-05-15 · Political Thinking with Nick Robinson · Why the PM has to go: Miatta Fahnbulleh on being the first minister to break with Starmer · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source

  36. “So I think it's both. I think I got lucky to work with a minister in Greg Clock that was quite willing to sort of push the boundaries and to create the space to do that as well. But I think that's also possible as a minister. And actually, I've tried to take that approach where I can.”

    2026-05-15 · Political Thinking with Nick Robinson · Why the PM has to go: Miatta Fahnbulleh on being the first minister to break with Starmer · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source

  37. “So it's a shared project, but actually you have a proper conversation. So if you think about a lot of cabinet committees or meetings, there are often there's a particular script the department says this, and we're just like, how do you break that? And we took it to real issues and ideas and then had a proper conversation politician to politician that just broke that. And that's the way we managed to get the first wave of deals and devolution out of Whitehall.”

    2026-05-15 · Political Thinking with Nick Robinson · Why the PM has to go: Miatta Fahnbulleh on being the first minister to break with Starmer · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source

  38. “Change. And so the approach that we took was we brought in a whole lot of people who weren't civil servants and could come with a mindset for a short period of time in order to disrupt. And we thought, look, how do we do this differently? Because normally there's a very sort of painful conversation about, well, department A, do you want to do this? Department B. And so we set ourselves up in a really different way. We tried to make it very political. So remember for the first time we're like, how do we have a conversation about this place wants to do X, Y, and Z that will fundamentally transform their place, but they don't have the resources or the power to do it? The system says, oh, this is a bit difficult, this is not how we do things. How do you break that? The bit of innovation we took is, could you get a set of ministers around the table with some leaders and some business people to say this is what we want to do and why?”

    2026-05-15 · Political Thinking with Nick Robinson · Why the PM has to go: Miatta Fahnbulleh on being the first minister to break with Starmer · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source

  39. “Yeah, so I think my two, and this has really shaped the way I do everything and it's shaped my politics, I think the two things I have always held true is if you are trying to make something happen or drive change, do it properly, actually figure out what the problem is and what the solution is and do the actual solution. Don't tinker around the margins. And then the second thing is understand that sometimes, and this was in the context of devolution. Now, if you know anything about government, it likes to hoard power. My job when I led the city's policy unit was to try to rip power out of the hands of Whitehall departments and give it to our city regions and what became our mayors. And that process was torturously difficult, it still is now. And I say this as the person that then became the Minister for Devolution. And I think my big insight was sometimes you've got to shock the system, you've got to disrupt in order to drive.”

    2026-05-15 · Political Thinking with Nick Robinson · Why the PM has to go: Miatta Fahnbulleh on being the first minister to break with Starmer · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source

  40. “So, look, the honest answer is the context was tough. The context was tough. And I think I remember really clearly the Chancellor setting out just the horrendous card that she had been dealt and the fact that tough choices had to be made. I think what was difficult was it was only one tough choice and it was targeted at a group that, yes, there were wealthy people within it, but there were a lot of vulnerable people in that. And that just didn't feel aligned with our labour values. And I think that's the point when I thought, ultimately, to govern, you've got to be really clear about whose side you're on and you've got to be really clear about the values that are driving what you are doing. And this will not look like labour values. And it does not feel that we've made that decision against the yardstick of labour values. And that's going to be a tough, tough, tough thing for us to sell.”

    2026-05-15 · Political Thinking with Nick Robinson · Why the PM has to go: Miatta Fahnbulleh on being the first minister to break with Starmer · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source

  41. “So I think where we ended up, so in the end, the argument around targeting, I think most people bought, of course, they were really, you know, people always cite the rich pensioners that got them into fuel payment. That made no sense. It made no sense to those pensioners. So targeting was the right thing. I think the targeting was far too severe. And then it wasn't juxtaposed with a set of things that we could have done to say that we're protecting people. So, you know, if I give you an example, one of the things that I thought of off the back of the winter fuel was to extend the warm homes discount. So we went from 3 million people to 6 million people getting it after the event. But if you'd bought the two things together, far less aggressive targeting that meant that those that needed it, particularly those in the middle that weren't on pension credit, but needed it in order to warm their homes, if he'd done that and done the warm homes discount, I think we could have sold the policy. But it was just that at a time.”

    2026-05-15 · Political Thinking with Nick Robinson · Why the PM has to go: Miatta Fahnbulleh on being the first minister to break with Starmer · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source

  42. “And that was against the context we were going into the winter. Energy bills were still high. We hadn't as yet had an intervention like we've just had around the taking £150 off bills. And I thought that is not only going to be quite a counterintuitive people for us to do in the eyes of people because ultimately the Labour Party is there to protect the Labour Party is there to make sure that those that can't navigate through difficult situations, which is what we're in, that we are by their side. And I was like, this is going to be a hard one for people to swallow.”

    2026-05-15 · Political Thinking with Nick Robinson · Why the PM has to go: Miatta Fahnbulleh on being the first minister to break with Starmer · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source

  43. “What did you not know about it? I learnt about it in the chamber and I thought, wow, that is not where I think we should be going with this.”

    2026-05-15 · Political Thinking with Nick Robinson · Why the PM has to go: Miatta Fahnbulleh on being the first minister to break with Starmer · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source

  44. “And if they're not clear about the central thread that is driving through and the underpinning values, who are you all for, what are you about, you're asking thousands of people to make everyday decisions that don't necessarily cohere.”

    2026-05-15 · Political Thinking with Nick Robinson · Why the PM has to go: Miatta Fahnbulleh on being the first minister to break with Starmer · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source

  45. “Yeah, I mean, look, I think he's not driving that change through. I think it is harder, and it's important to say, I think it is harder. I think there was something that happened over the course of those Brexit years. There was something that happened when we had that churn of prime ministers and those politicians leading, the means that the machine is working in a different way than it did do. So I think it's really important to understand that context. But fundamentally, I do believe politics can drive things. But you've got to be really clear about what you are driving. You've got to be very clear that this is my central diagnosis of the problem. This is what our project is. This is what we're trying to achieve. Because five years is not a long time. And if you're not clear that this is where I'm trying to take the country and therefore the government and every part of the government is absolutely clear about that, it's very hard to drive change. And so for me, it's that. And then, you know, ultimately lots of people in the system make lots of decisions.”

    2026-05-15 · Political Thinking with Nick Robinson · Why the PM has to go: Miatta Fahnbulleh on being the first minister to break with Starmer · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source

  46. “I think, and I look, I say this with the recognition that I think we've done some brilliant stuff, and you would expect me to say this as a Labour MP, and I will always point to the employment rights bill, the biggest boost, the workers' rights in the generation, the Renters' Rights Acts I took through the English Devolution and Community Empowerment Bill. So there is a chalk list of things that we are doing. But I think the thing that everyone is reaching for is how it comes together in a project that the country understands and every part of the machine and the system understands.”

    2026-05-15 · Political Thinking with Nick Robinson · Why the PM has to go: Miatta Fahnbulleh on being the first minister to break with Starmer · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source

  47. “The Labour Gun Blair Brown, and even at the start of the coalition government. So there is something about the way that the state is operating, that doesn't have the pace and the urgency, but, and this is the big but, I think the politics does matter. I think, and if you were sitting here with colleagues in the civil service, they would say we can act when we're really clear about what the government's trying to get to. We can act when we aren't doing one thing and then that's being U-turned. So I do think there is something about you can and we must. It's imperative that you get the system to move. But the system moves when there is a political clarity in the will that drives the system along.”

    2026-05-15 · Political Thinking with Nick Robinson · Why the PM has to go: Miatta Fahnbulleh on being the first minister to break with Starmer · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source

  48. “So I think it's both. And actually, my reflection having worked in government for a long time as a civil servant and then coming in again this time is government is definitely more treacally is the way I describe it, getting stuff done is much harder than it used to be. The level of processes, the bureaucracies, the, you know, I remember my first time in the job and I was like, we consult so much before we barely act. There's sort of six months baked into it in order to consult, to do this, to do that. And I feel the pace and the ability to drive change was much faster before when I was in. So there is much faster.”

    2026-05-15 · Political Thinking with Nick Robinson · Why the PM has to go: Miatta Fahnbulleh on being the first minister to break with Starmer · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source

  49. “So I'm Labour Party through and through. And look, in the end, I'm not a particularly tribal or factional person. I will work with anyone in order to deliver change for both my community but also the country. And I think it's important that you do work across political divides in order to make progress and make things happen. Like, my view is, if I think about where we have delivered progressive change in this country, whether it's the NHS or the minimum wage, it is the Labour Party that has done that.”

    2026-05-15 · Political Thinking with Nick Robinson · Why the PM has to go: Miatta Fahnbulleh on being the first minister to break with Starmer · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source

  50. “It's painful. Do you know what? What's doubly painful is I think when Zach launched his, if you like, his platform, his, he did it at the New Economics Foundation, so that was pretty painful. Which I used to run, their central analysis of the problem with the economy has been the analysis I've been banging on about for the last decade and a bit. And so it is painful because they are entering the space that I believe the Labour Party should be holding. This should be our analysis of the problems with the country. I believe it to my absolute core.”

    2026-05-15 · Political Thinking with Nick Robinson · Why the PM has to go: Miatta Fahnbulleh on being the first minister to break with Starmer · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source