YouSaid · the spoken record

Michael Hayden

lines on the record: 137
first: 2018-05-28
most recent: 2018-05-28
sittings or episodes: 1
sources: podcast

Every line below is reproduced as it was said and linked to the record it came from. Nothing here is summarised or generated. Directory · Search · Corrections

“Yeah. Oh, by the way, I don't think impeachment is a good idea. I think because there are so many Americans who believe the president, who believe in the president, and they are good Americans, all right, that you do not want to create the impression that people like you and me just conducted a soft coup against the duly elected president of the United States. This needs to be resolved in 2020.”
2018-05-28 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: General Michael Hayden on Donald Trump’s ‘assault on intelligence’ · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“So here's my macro statement based on judgment rather than scientific surveys. There is no body of evidence that Bob Mueller can prepare and present that would convince a Republican-controlled Congress to draw up articles of impeachment.”
2018-05-28 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: General Michael Hayden on Donald Trump’s ‘assault on intelligence’ · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Yeah, over these longer term things. So back to the original premise. The good news is the sound you hear are institutions trying to hold their ground. And the advice I give to intelligence people in the book is serve the president. Make him successful. I do a carve-out for the political appointees. Think twice before you do this, but everyone else who should just be rowing, I'm saying row. Make this man more successful than he otherwise would be. You know how to count. You know how the electoral college works. He is the legitimate president of the United States. And then I say, obviously you have to protect your own personal integrity. So keep a letter in the lower right-hand desk drawer. But beyond that, but beyond that, you have got to protect the integrity of the institution which cannot resign, which cannot walk. And therefore, although we accommodate all presidents, because we should, you cannot accommodate any president so much that you undercut the legitimacy of the institution.”
2018-05-28 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: General Michael Hayden on Donald Trump’s ‘assault on intelligence’ · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“of his own executive branch that are pushing back against some of these unprecedented requests and behavior. And then weirdness of weirdnesses, the president is trying to enlist his party in Congress, which constitutionally, and all meanings of that word, should be the agent limiting him. He's now trying to use his party in Congress to strike out at the agencies of his own executive branch who are pushing back against him now how strange is that”
2018-05-28 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: General Michael Hayden on Donald Trump’s ‘assault on intelligence’ · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Right. That's actually not happening. All right, so you have a president expanding his authority, doing unprecedented things, but no real limitations, rarely, any limitations by the group that's by the Congress. He's actually being opposed by the agencies and departments.”
2018-05-28 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: General Michael Hayden on Donald Trump’s ‘assault on intelligence’ · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“So let me give you the good news. I really mean this. The sound you hear from outside of our studio here are not American institutions crumbling. Their American institutions holding their ground. Against unprecedented behavior from the executive. This is a fascinating dynamic and just give me a minute to describe it. Constitutionally, the limits on the president should be the Article I guys. It should be the Congress.”
2018-05-28 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: General Michael Hayden on Donald Trump’s ‘assault on intelligence’ · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“And so, where does that lead if that is happening on a daily basis? You know, you do get the sort of hand wringing that goes on every night on cable news, and you've been on cable. And I saw Sally Yates last night making a very persuasive argument that this was unprecedented. If I hear the word unprecedented, I'm like, no, it's not because we're going to have a precedent tomorrow. He's going to do another thing. He's going to push you even further. What happens? Because then I think in a lot of ways, and in the next version, I do want to talk about the impact of all this information that we get from all these platforms, because I think it plays right into this. What occurs when this is happening, when there's one precedent broken after the next, is that you just...”
2018-05-28 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: General Michael Hayden on Donald Trump’s ‘assault on intelligence’ · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“But right now it's all organizing around circling the wagons, around people who bear data, who bear truth. So this is a burden that intelligence shares with other elements of society.”
2018-05-28 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: General Michael Hayden on Donald Trump’s ‘assault on intelligence’ · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Electronic surveillance, interrogations, and so on. That dispute has been absolutely muted. The intelligence community has been embraced by those other communities. I know, I know. The press loves that. Because we're data guys. And we'll get back to that other question directly.”
2018-05-28 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: General Michael Hayden on Donald Trump’s ‘assault on intelligence’ · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“And therefore, it's not surprising. And I make the point something that you suggested by your question, that my truth seekers, the Intel guys, I've spent most of my career being criticized by the other truth seekers on that list. And we have been criticized for the way we acquire data.”
2018-05-28 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: General Michael Hayden on Donald Trump’s ‘assault on intelligence’ · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Because our foundational documents were written by Enlightenment scholars. I mean, the Hamiltons and Madisons, the George Masons of the world. And so if we back away from the Enlightenment, whoa, that is a very serious thing. So what I actually say is that it's interesting that the high friction points of the Trump administration have been with intelligence, law enforcement, the courts, science, scholarship, and journalism. And what do they all have in common? They're all evidence based and all imperfect, all can get things wrong. Some may be occasionally corrupt. But they're only safe haven. Is that they pursue truth”
2018-05-28 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: General Michael Hayden on Donald Trump’s ‘assault on intelligence’ · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Right. But I try to draw the, I mean, obviously it's a book about espionage. I'm the Intel guy, but it tries to be a broader book about the values of how our society makes decisions. So very quickly.”
2018-05-28 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: General Michael Hayden on Donald Trump’s ‘assault on intelligence’ · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Right. So, this to me is an assault on intelligence. When you're talking about, you know, there's some people in the country, on both sides of the spectrum, that are like, good, let's destroy the intelligence system because it's been based on lies. It's been based on manipulation. It's been based on this, which I think he's in that camp. And there's plenty on the left who have that idea of it. Talk about what it does when there's this assault. Because we've set up a system that we've had forever, really. I mean, since revolutionary times, we've had spies. I mean, George Washington had spies have been everywhere. Right.”
2018-05-28 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: General Michael Hayden on Donald Trump’s ‘assault on intelligence’ · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“It happened because the president has made this accusation. I think Deputy Attorney General Rosenstein, his response was fairly elegant. I mean, he kind of tossed it to the IG, which in essence responded to the president. I don't think that was a satisfactory response, but the president doesn't have any other clear moves to make after Rosenstein did that. So I think that was a decent deflection.”
2018-05-28 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: General Michael Hayden on Donald Trump’s ‘assault on intelligence’ · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“That objective reality, to that objective truth, and the president launches, and I quickly add, there's 35% of the country now who simply that's enough evidence.”
2018-05-28 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: General Michael Hayden on Donald Trump’s ‘assault on intelligence’ · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“And I describe myself as a creature of the executive branch. I know Article 2 and I know the great powers that the Constitution gives the president. He is the chief law enforcement officer of the country. He can do this, but there's a reason no one else has ever done it because the deeper longer-term value is the independence of law enforcement and the Department of Justice. And here again, it's indifference.”
2018-05-28 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: General Michael Hayden on Donald Trump’s ‘assault on intelligence’ · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“There is. And so I begin by saying I'm not a lawyer, but I'm pretty sure that's neither illegal nor unconstitutional. Just unprecedented.”
2018-05-28 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: General Michael Hayden on Donald Trump’s ‘assault on intelligence’ · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“We did that with Trump Tower We did that with this whole unmasking fiasco. You recall that they were requesting U.S. identities and, you know, I've been a critic of the Obama administration for a variety of policy questions. And I just felt compelled as a former director of NSA to say, no, what you're describing here is ridiculously normal. That is how this works. There's nothing untoward. And now we've got this politically motivated infiltration of the Trump campaign. So what I've been saying, although I'm not a lawyer,”
2018-05-28 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: General Michael Hayden on Donald Trump’s ‘assault on intelligence’ · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Yeah, exactly. Does his mind make the distinction? Between the past that happened and the past that would be useful. And we just looked at each other and said, perhaps not. And that's the difference. Before this sounds too condemnatory because it is rather critical. I mean, God makes us all in different ways.”
2018-05-28 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: General Michael Hayden on Donald Trump’s ‘assault on intelligence’ · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Hey, no way. The leadership of the Boy Scots called me. They said it was the greatest speech ever given. Well, yeah. Never happened. But the question we asked ourselves was. Does he know that”
2018-05-28 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: General Michael Hayden on Donald Trump’s ‘assault on intelligence’ · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“It was kind of a campaign rally, a little tasteless. And that caused a disturbance in the force. And there was reporting on it. And the president then said,”
2018-05-28 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: General Michael Hayden on Donald Trump’s ‘assault on intelligence’ · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“He's departing from another point. We've never had that. I was talking to one of these PDB President Daily Brief Briefers, and we were reflecting on the, remember the speech in West Virginia to the Boy Scouts?”
2018-05-28 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: General Michael Hayden on Donald Trump’s ‘assault on intelligence’ · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“We know how to do that. This isn't that. This is the president for whom the instinctive departure point for decision making is not an agreed objective view of reality.”
2018-05-28 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: General Michael Hayden on Donald Trump’s ‘assault on intelligence’ · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“I have a different view. I mean, we did that with Dick Cheney a lot and vice president Cheney. That's fine. We don't do that”
2018-05-28 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: General Michael Hayden on Donald Trump’s ‘assault on intelligence’ · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“You know, that's interesting. And I actually talked to some people who have experienced briefing presidents in the book, and they make the point, hey, look, we've had presidents who didn't believe us. Right. I mean, they, in fact, what that means is, no, I don't think your view of objective reality is actually correct.”
2018-05-28 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: General Michael Hayden on Donald Trump’s ‘assault on intelligence’ · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“On which it might not be a good idea to do this. But he did it, and he did it based, I think, on instinct. And let me be perfectly candid If I'm now a foreign intelligence officer and I'm briefing the prime minister and he pulls me in there and says, you know, I can't figure this guy out, Mike. Give me some suggestions as to how I can predict his course of action. I frankly would have to say, well, Mr Prime Minister, I don't have evidence for this, but my instincts are look at whatever President Obama did.”
2018-05-28 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: General Michael Hayden on Donald Trump’s ‘assault on intelligence’ · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“What we're seeing is, I'm not so sure now how controlling the objective view that these institutions try to present, how controlling that is in the president's behavior. One example, and again, left and right-hand boundaries, I mean, none of this works like a syllogism. Let me give you three sentences from the current. intelligence community all right not Hayden but current guys Iran is not violating the nuclear agreement. There are no material breaches. Iran is further away from a weapon with the agreement than they would be without it. And we know more about the Iranian program because of the agreement than we would without having such an agreement. And we still walked away from the agreement So the intelligence guys laid it out. And so at least the president. Knew the grounds.”
2018-05-28 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: General Michael Hayden on Donald Trump’s ‘assault on intelligence’ · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“between the workings of the fact people It's just not Intel. It could be the FBI. Right, right. Or the Department of Justice.”
2018-05-28 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: General Michael Hayden on Donald Trump’s ‘assault on intelligence’ · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Right. I mean, I actually think the briefings are probably normal. With the exception of something you already suggested, George Bush learned in a different way than Barack Obama. In a different way than Donald Trump. And so you have to key the briefing to the personality of the president. So President Bush learned in the discussion and the argument. President Obama in the quiet moment in the reflection. President Trump, I've never briefed, but I'm told it's all visual. It's the graph, the picture of the map that catches, that makes the wheels start to turn. And so you go in there and you make the best presentation possible in the way you think most likely to succeed in getting inside the head of the president. The problem, Cara, is I don't, there are times when I don't see connections.”
2018-05-28 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: General Michael Hayden on Donald Trump’s ‘assault on intelligence’ · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“For logical, legitimate. So on one hand, on the other hand. Right. And if you go too far over here, you can guarantee that's just not going to work. If you go too far over here, you can guarantee that's not going to work. And so you try to set the framework.”
2018-05-28 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: General Michael Hayden on Donald Trump’s ‘assault on intelligence’ · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“So your responsibility is to continue to work the problem. And to be very candid, hardly everyone in there with a syllogism for George Bush where I went whereas and whereas and the president says, well, heck, Mike, therefore, I mean, the best you can do, the best you can do on a good day is to create a left and right-hand boundary.”
2018-05-28 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: General Michael Hayden on Donald Trump’s ‘assault on intelligence’ · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“An a priori narrative of how the world works. The president has a preternatural confidence in his own instincts And you know, he freely admits he doesn't read. And he doesn't have patience for briefings.”
2018-05-28 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: General Michael Hayden on Donald Trump’s ‘assault on intelligence’ · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“So, to say, because here we are in a society where we have more information than ever, and I'm going to get to the internet companies and their responsibilities in this, in our next section. But here you have all this information and all this data, but the decisions are being made based on instinct or what”
2018-05-28 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: General Michael Hayden on Donald Trump’s ‘assault on intelligence’ · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“least fortunate number three it was more than just being not necessary and unkind it was dangerous Because it lived the narrative that there is undying enmity between Islam and the West, which is the narrative of ISIS and al-Qaeda. We were filling in the recruiting poster. For them. That is a totally non fact-based decision. That actually, again, beyond useless, was harmful And that's the kind of thing that worries me about how decisions are made in the administration.”
2018-05-28 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: General Michael Hayden on Donald Trump’s ‘assault on intelligence’ · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“And most tellingly, Carol, is that nobody in our tribe in our old jobs spoke up in favor? Who are currently in government? The silence was what the signal was. And we objected to it on three grounds. Number one, just the methodology. It's not based on data. It's scary. Number two, it was really unkind to the world's...”
2018-05-28 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: General Michael Hayden on Donald Trump’s ‘assault on intelligence’ · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“There were court challenges to it. There was an amicus brief. The amicus brief was signed. Two former deputy directors, a former director of national intelligence and the former director of the National Counterterrorism.”
2018-05-28 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: General Michael Hayden on Donald Trump’s ‘assault on intelligence’ · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Near apocalyptic threat to the United States from refugees entering this country. and a near dystopian vetting system. that we were using to make sure these refugees were indeed safe. Neither of those are true. And then eight days into the administration, he issues this executive order that's frankly a Muslim ban, although they claim it's not a Muslim ban, but it's a Muslim ban.”
2018-05-28 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: General Michael Hayden on Donald Trump’s ‘assault on intelligence’ · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“So the president during the campaign creates the other. The other is a convenient campaign tool for him. Muslims, Mexicans, whatever. And one of the others was the class of people we call refugees. And he described during the campaign.”
2018-05-28 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: General Michael Hayden on Donald Trump’s ‘assault on intelligence’ · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“I think we're pretty certain on that. I'm going to go for we know. So a concrete example that plays out like a morality plane. It's a little long, but go right ahead. Let me do it.”
2018-05-28 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: General Michael Hayden on Donald Trump’s ‘assault on intelligence’ · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“That's right. And now, up to and including, I think, the president. Let me give you a concrete example that was kind of the”
2018-05-28 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: General Michael Hayden on Donald Trump’s ‘assault on intelligence’ · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Sounds great, Peter. You can find Recode Media on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Play Music, wherever you listen to podcasts. We're here with General Michael Hayden, the author of The Assault on Intelligence. Let's talk about that assault. We were just talking about people not using intelligence, essentially, just using feelings.”
2018-05-28 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: General Michael Hayden on Donald Trump’s ‘assault on intelligence’ · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“You get that part. All right, we're here with Michael Hayden. He's the general Michael Hayden, general. You deserve that title. He's the author of The Assault on Intelligence. Obviously, he's been a high-ranking intelligence official for many years at the NSA, the CIA, and we're talking about the post-truth society.”
2018-05-28 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: General Michael Hayden on Donald Trump’s ‘assault on intelligence’ · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Everybody has Do and I tried and I tried to reflect this in the writing. I tried to be very, very respectful. A line I put in the book is. There were more military veterans and parents of military veterans in that bar in Pittsburgh than any green room or boardroom I've ever been in. All right, so these are good people. I mean, in essence, I write their self-description is, I go to work, I pay my taxes, I go to church, I'm part of the PTA, make my kids do their homework. And no one seems to pay attention to me. And I actually get that part”
2018-05-28 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: General Michael Hayden on Donald Trump’s ‘assault on intelligence’ · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Right, right. So, how did you feel when you walked out of that bar? Because that was striking. You've talked about this a bunch of this striking moment. I've had that moment with family members. Everybody has. And I'm like, I know what actually I was there. And they seem to have a different.”
2018-05-28 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: General Michael Hayden on Donald Trump’s ‘assault on intelligence’ · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“That's the evidence. The president was being stalked by John Dickerson one Sunday morning. On the CBS morning show And John was pressing the president on facts data. Why do you say? That happened, and the president's getting very frustrated. And finally, he kind of sits himself behind the resolute desk saying we're done. John keeps asking, and the President then says A lot of people agree with me people are saying a lot of people are saying, and Kara, that's it, all right? That for President Trump and for a bunch of Americans, if I can make it popular or trending It's a departure point.”
2018-05-28 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: General Michael Hayden on Donald Trump’s ‘assault on intelligence’ · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“That actually happened. And one individual on the front of the room, and she got some affirmative nods, kind of put her arms out, shrugged her shoulders, and went, Obam”
2018-05-28 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: General Michael Hayden on Donald Trump’s ‘assault on intelligence’ · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“I walk in. I know most of these people. I grew up with their brothers or sisters, their moms and dads. And we have a great two and a half hour conversation. But I get to the point where I say, so, I mean, How many actually believe Barack Obama wiretap Trump Tar? A bunch of hands go up? I go, really? I said, I'm former director of NSA. I know something about this. That didn't happen. The plumbing doesn't work that way. What evidence do you have?”
2018-05-28 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: General Michael Hayden on Donald Trump’s ‘assault on intelligence’ · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Right. So I'm trying to talk to people who don't sound like me. So I write in the book that I go to Pittsburgh. You did. My brother gets all his friends in the back of the bar”
2018-05-28 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: General Michael Hayden on Donald Trump’s ‘assault on intelligence’ · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Very quickly, but let's go Sure. I mean, it's based on something other than evidence. I'll give you two quick examples. They pivot around the same reality, but two different people. So Barack Obama wiretap Trump Tower. Okay, that's the accusation. So I'm trying to talk to you.”
2018-05-28 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: General Michael Hayden on Donald Trump’s ‘assault on intelligence’ · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Get information. And so when you think about this post truth society or post fact society, what are the hallmarks of that? From your perspective, what are the hallmarks? You said tribal. You went through them very quickly, but let's go through them a little less quickly”
2018-05-28 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: General Michael Hayden on Donald Trump’s ‘assault on intelligence’ · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT