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Michael Hayden

lines on the record: 137
first: 2018-05-28
most recent: 2018-05-28
sittings or episodes: 1
sources: podcast

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“In the face of such rapid change that folks are now overwhelmed by their circumstances and look for something that seems to offer for Bonav a better word, salvation. And now we are responding. Instinctively, tribally based on self-identity. rather than on data and information and oh yes oh by the way and i'm sure we'll get into this that is absolutely tied to the technology we now use in order to get information”
2018-05-28 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: General Michael Hayden on Donald Trump’s ‘assault on intelligence’ · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Severely. So it's somewhat global, not universal, but somewhat global. So we see it in some Eastern European countries, certainly in the Russian Federation here in the United States. It may be despair.”
2018-05-28 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: General Michael Hayden on Donald Trump’s ‘assault on intelligence’ · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Why has that happened? What has occurred? What has made post-truth the thing? Let's talk about the bigger picture and we'll get into Trump in the next part because I think he's fueled it rather severely.”
2018-05-28 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: General Michael Hayden on Donald Trump’s ‘assault on intelligence’ · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“So this deserves a lot of unfeeling, but very briefly, yeah, the proximate cause was what the president was saying and doing. But, you know, you can't get two or three thoughts into that without realizing that President Trump is effect, not cause. He is cleverly riding a popular wave that, and I begin the book very clearly with the Oxford Dictionary's Word of the Year for 2016. Post-truth decision making. Based less on data and evidence and more on feeling, preference, emotion, loyalty, tribe, grievance, and that is a societal trend that he decided to exploit and ride. So it is a broader phenomenon. And I actually bring up in the book running counter to the mode of thinking in the West since the Enlightenment in the 17th century.”
2018-05-28 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: General Michael Hayden on Donald Trump’s ‘assault on intelligence’ · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Right, same people, right? Same people. And we'll get into this. So, what is happening now in the breakdown? And I want to talk about it from not just a Trump perspective because I think that's definitely the thing that's fueling it, but a macro perspective of all this information, the distrust of information, how it goes. So we're going to talk about a lot of that in the next section. But what prompted you to write this book? Was it because of the Trump administration and the assault? Which he started early on. He did.”
2018-05-28 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: General Michael Hayden on Donald Trump’s ‘assault on intelligence’ · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Very politicized. Very political. Yeah, so Hoover, I think, by any objective measure, even for somebody from my tribe, is a very dark episode. And aren't we glad we are beyond any one man having that kind of control? So what we now have is to try to get a balance between presidents being allowed to pick their own team. But the team broadly being institutionally focused, so I'll give you one quick example, despite all the to-ing and fraying that candidate and then President-elect Trump. had with the intelligence community He changed two people. The director of national intelligence and the director of CIA, everybody else, steady as you go.”
2018-05-28 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: General Michael Hayden on Donald Trump’s ‘assault on intelligence’ · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“We're accustomed to that. He's president. Right. Even in cases, say, you have a Jadger Hoover who has agendas, that intelligence agencies have agendas, which I think the reason I'm asking is because this has now become. Very much”
2018-05-28 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: General Michael Hayden on Donald Trump’s ‘assault on intelligence’ · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“I think there was a trust in the level of system. There was certainly a degree of what's the right word. Deference might be a little too strong. But you ignored the intelligence guy. At your peril, because that represented the institutional wisdom of the government. Now, you can, and presidents have. We're accustomed to that. But that's okay. He's president.”
2018-05-28 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: General Michael Hayden on Donald Trump’s ‘assault on intelligence’ · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“So you're feeding into a policy process, and this is one of the real difficult things. If you're not relevant to policymaker, you probably should be on a university campus. Right. No offense because I'm now on a university campus. But you need to be relevant to the policy process. So somehow you've got to be true to your roots. I'm the fact based objective guy, Mr. But still be relevant to the decision maker.”
2018-05-28 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: General Michael Hayden on Donald Trump’s ‘assault on intelligence’ · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“In terms of because fundamentally, and this is my life experience, and I realize this becomes a discussion point when I take audience as outside of Washington, but my life experience is these are highly talented professional, dedicated Americans working under the rule of law to do the best possible job they can. Now, I know by original sin and a veil of tears and imperfect human existence, but I don't question the motivation.”
2018-05-28 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: General Michael Hayden on Donald Trump’s ‘assault on intelligence’ · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Right, exactly. And so, but in general, for the most part, most people trusted the system, the trusted the system, which you talk about in this book. Why is that a good thing to trust the system in terms of...”
2018-05-28 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: General Michael Hayden on Donald Trump’s ‘assault on intelligence’ · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Much better. We're much better than the policymakers. The policymakers didn't listen to what they Right, exactly. And by the way, that's the burden on us”
2018-05-28 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: General Michael Hayden on Donald Trump’s ‘assault on intelligence’ · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Much better in the policymakers. But the policymakers didn't listen to what they were saying. That's right. You're absolutely right. But in terms of the utilization of this intelligence has been, it depends on who's using it, what they believe, how much they get of it, what mentality you are going into it. If you're a Dick Cheney listening to it, it's a different than Barack Obama listening to it. Right, exactly. And by the way,”
2018-05-28 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: General Michael Hayden on Donald Trump’s ‘assault on intelligence’ · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“So, but in that time period, people did generally, even weapons of mass destruction, there's a series of mistakes, some of which you were involved in, some of which you weren't, but over time, there's been misses in Vietnam, there's been misses assessment.”
2018-05-28 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: General Michael Hayden on Donald Trump’s ‘assault on intelligence’ · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“And I paused for a moment, and then I said, First thing you got to know is we don't do eight, nine, or If you can get it to eight, nine, or ten, they're asking the Department of Commerce the question. Okay. They aren't asking us the question. And so intelligence may be obviously an imperfect human enterprise, but it is based, and I emphasize this in the book, it's based on enlightenment values. Right.”
2018-05-28 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: General Michael Hayden on Donald Trump’s ‘assault on intelligence’ · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Now that's really important. Now you can get that wrong. I'll throw myself on the mercy of the court here and say I was in the room when we all voted on the Iraq Weapons of Mass Destruction, National Intelligence Estimate. We were pursuing an accurate view of objective reality. We were wrong. So you can get it wrong, even if you try your best. I tell a story of myself. After the WMD problem, I was talking to a bunch of what I've now learned to call high net worth individuals as director of CIA. I was just kind of won over the world. And I did my big hand little map and we've got this and this and we worry. And then I got a question. He said, General, on a scale of zero to 10, how would you rate CIA analysis?”
2018-05-28 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: General Michael Hayden on Donald Trump’s ‘assault on intelligence’ · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Exactly right. We would use the word estimate. Okay, or assessment. You know, in darker days, we would use the phrase wag. Wild ass I do those all the time. But it's based number one, and this is we get to the thesis of the book in a bit, it's based on the pursuit of objective reality.”
2018-05-28 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: General Michael Hayden on Donald Trump’s ‘assault on intelligence’ · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Right, right. And in most cases, the way it was done, because I want to get in this idea of the assault on intelligence, is that it's not a guess, but it's a guess, it's a version of a guess based on, it's like reporting or anything else.”
2018-05-28 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: General Michael Hayden on Donald Trump’s ‘assault on intelligence’ · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Of collection. The back end, at least a decade, 15 years, the back end of my career, I was the producer of the raw information.”
2018-05-28 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: General Michael Hayden on Donald Trump’s ‘assault on intelligence’ · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“We're going to get into your book in a second. But so when you were running this, at the beginning of the internet, you were in National League. Before that, you had run all kinds of, presumably things to get information to be out in the field.”
2018-05-28 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: General Michael Hayden on Donald Trump’s ‘assault on intelligence’ · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Christopher Steele. Right, and all that information. For someone like me, the Steele dossier is the beginning of the journey, not the end of the journey. And so for every assertion in the dossier, which is all human sourced, for every assertion, we would say, would that person be likely to know that? Has that person told me other things that turned out to be true? And then do I have other information that confirms what he or she is claiming? And you go through that with every human source, with every piece of data they toss at you.”
2018-05-28 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: General Michael Hayden on Donald Trump’s ‘assault on intelligence’ · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“And that's, in essence, what human sources are. People who are part of an organization, let me be very candid, part of an organization that believes has their loyalty. But you have some way or another convinced that person that they have a higher greater loyalty and they begin to tell you things that happened.”
2018-05-28 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: General Michael Hayden on Donald Trump’s ‘assault on intelligence’ · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Well, sure. I mean, people may or may not report faithfully on a meeting in terms of the minutes, the communication they may or may not represent the meaning of the meaning well on a phone call that you may intercept. And so it's really cool to have a guy in the meeting.”
2018-05-28 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: General Michael Hayden on Donald Trump’s ‘assault on intelligence’ · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“We were, but again, you know, you still had this exquisite slice at the top based on human sources. All right. And there are some things that you just cannot get otherwise. Explain that.”
2018-05-28 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: General Michael Hayden on Donald Trump’s ‘assault on intelligence’ · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“You don't have to get into it. Why don't you just look? I do want to get into the idea because when we have all these companies that have all this information or collecting all this information at the same time, it's just a constant stream of signals, like you were saying and also the availability of information. But let's go back. When you were head of NSA and CIA, the principal stuff you all were working on were to gather intelligence using The newest technologies.”
2018-05-28 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: General Michael Hayden on Donald Trump’s ‘assault on intelligence’ · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Electronic espionage was really privileged. It was an age in which we could harvest a great deal. And here I'm talking about legitimate requirements, legitimate targets, legitimate targeting. All right. But it was the golden age of that. Now, as you and I are getting smarter about end-to-end encryption and how we want to make our own communication secure, so are our enemies. All right. And so now we might actually be seeing another shift. And you don't stop trying to collect things electronically, but now you realize, you know, that mine is played out a little bit. And maybe we need to start digging over here with the other sources of information. That would be now human intelligence. And again, I come back to where I began. And so much is now available that you don't have to. Well, I do want to get into it. Why don't you just look?”
2018-05-28 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: General Michael Hayden on Donald Trump’s ‘assault on intelligence’ · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Which is good for you, but which is good for me and bad for you and me on the personal level. So there is this era here probably lasted the last 15, 16 years in which signals intelligence.”
2018-05-28 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: General Michael Hayden on Donald Trump’s ‘assault on intelligence’ · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Google has But you can see the wave coming. And frankly, what we saw, and we said this to ourselves at NSA, it's going to be hard to keep up. It's going to be really technically challenging. But if we do it even half well, this is going to be the golden age of electronic surveillance. Before I scare a lot of your listeners with that, I mean when you go out there, you go out there and you want to learn when an enemy is up to, what an adversary might be thinking, when an adversary or an enemy begins to use all these modern tools, and especially back in that day, they were putting them up into a domain that was near defenseless.”
2018-05-28 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: General Michael Hayden on Donald Trump’s ‘assault on intelligence’ · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Signals intelligence, which is about communications, and then imagery intelligence. And how we emphasize each of those lanes depends on the world in which we find ourselves. And to be very, very candid, and I think it's suggested in the way you framed your question, when I became the director of NSA in 1999, we are moving into the digital age.”
2018-05-28 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: General Michael Hayden on Donald Trump’s ‘assault on intelligence’ · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“So, the way I tell the story is, you know, there are multiple ways to learn about things other people don't want you to learn about. I mean, frankly, to be very candid, one's read the newspaper. I mean, there's an awful lot of information in the public domain. In that case, newspaper here is a metaphor for publicly available information.”
2018-05-28 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: General Michael Hayden on Donald Trump’s ‘assault on intelligence’ · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Mm-hmm. Right, right. Let's talk a little about what that intelligence entailed back then and how it's, it's obviously gotten more technological and more, there was always technology elements, always.”
2018-05-28 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: General Michael Hayden on Donald Trump’s ‘assault on intelligence’ · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“All right, but as I got more senior as the world changed, intelligence, at least for me personally, became broader. And in my last 10 years in government, I was pulled to the national level by President Clinton to be the director of NSA and then by President Bush to be the director of CIA. And in between, I had a year of something called the principal deputy director of national intelligence. And so there, you've got a career GI. Spent a lot of time traveling the world and seeing things and trying to absorb now at the national level. So it's far less about targeting, you know, far less about kind of the mechanics of combat and far more about the dynamics of global security or insecurity.”
2018-05-28 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: General Michael Hayden on Donald Trump’s ‘assault on intelligence’ · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Yeah, so intelligence in those days, I mean, keep in mind, I'm an old guy. This is the 60s, late 60s, early 70s, mechanical, linear, and industrial world. I mean, in my studies, I studied something called AWPD1, air war plan directive one, which is the war plan against Hitler's Germany. And it was very industrial age about key points, keynods in an economy, and so on. So if you went into the Air Force in those days, certainly at my level, intelligence meant a lot about targeting.”
2018-05-28 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: General Michael Hayden on Donald Trump’s ‘assault on intelligence’ · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Service Absolutely My dad meant the same way. He was in the Navy, actually, put him through college, went to medical school, the whole thing. Talk about what intelligence was in those days when you talk about that.”
2018-05-28 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: General Michael Hayden on Donald Trump’s ‘assault on intelligence’ · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Air Force. I'm sorry. You're in the Air Force No, I was in the Air Force because when I was going to college, there was something called Universal Military Service. And in my neighborhood, it meant universal. And so the decision, my fianc ⁇ and I made that, well, everyone's going. So why not go as an officer, take advantage of your education? And so I finished the ROTC program at Duquesne University. The Air Force quite generously gave me what was called an educational delay. So I stayed on campus for another two years getting a master's degree, both undergraduate and graduate degrees were in history, and history just seemed to be a natural entree to the field of intelligence. I volunteered for it. They selected me in the rest of the board.”
2018-05-28 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: General Michael Hayden on Donald Trump’s ‘assault on intelligence’ · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Desperately wanted. I think a lot of Right. Career military, 39 years in the Air Force, most of it intelligence, but not exclusively. Done some policy work. I was an instructor for four years, for example. But mostly, if you try to pin me down, I'm a career intelligence officer.”
2018-05-28 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: General Michael Hayden on Donald Trump’s ‘assault on intelligence’ · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“This. I think a lot of this does now focus on where we're going with intelligence and how it's happening. And of course, sort of the Trump administration assault on the idea of what intelligence should be. And you've been an outspoken critic. But let's talk a little bit about your background. You've had a long history in this area.”
2018-05-28 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: General Michael Hayden on Donald Trump’s ‘assault on intelligence’ · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT