Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire
Cork South-Central · Sinn Féin · Ireland
“That is important and the Minister and I share that view, much as we disagree on how it is not right to get rid of the triple lock. We have made that very clear and we think there is scope to deploy on peacekeeping missions elsewhere.”
“As I probably will not get more questions and it is my last contribution before the recess, I wish to take the opportunity to thank the staff of this institution and the Ceann Comhairle's office, who serve us so well.”
“We have all probably been guilty of the offence of going over time at different stages, I am sure. Despite our disagreements in relation to the triple lock, I think the Minister and I agree that peacekeeping missions are important.”
“In the context of the previous question, I submitted another question that was ruled out of order, which is fair enough. I probably did not word my question as precisely as Deputy Gibney worded hers. I record my concern about legal representation in that regard. It is important to say that. This question relates to another welfare issue.”
“The Minister said that she is not pushing anybody to the courts. I am not a doctor and cannot make a clinical decision, but if people suffered negative health outcomes that they believe have a connection to their clinical exposure, and they have never taken a case, how precisely is the Government going to help them?”
“The Minister talks about the need to ensure that Defence Forces personnel have the ability to deploy internationally and are not prevented from participating in rescue missions. I have no problem at all with head No. 7. Actually, most of the legislation is fine. It is just head No.”
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“The Naval Service is of particular importance to us as an island nation. It is essential. We talked about the full radar picture earlier. It is crucial that we have the capacity. It is unacceptable that we have had a situation over the past year and a half that ships have been put to sea without a functioning main gun because of inadequate personnel. I raised the issue of artificers earlier, and marine engineering officer teams are operating at roughly half strength. This is resulting in increased workload, added responsibilities and declining morale. This potentially runs the risk of some of those personnel, even adding further to the problem, by departing from the Defence Forces. In some of those critical specialist areas, the numbers remain critically low.”
“It is also probably important we have a greater sense of precisely the relationship, the chain of command and the various responsibilities of the two bodies, both of which are very important.”
“That is welcome. There are still multiples of that envisioned under the commission on the future of the Defence Forces. Off the top of my head, it was about 300 but that is from memory so I might be wrong on that. We are in a fortunate position that the intelligence elements of the Defence Forces and the Garda have a good working relationship but that is not necessarily the experience in every jurisdiction and should not be taken for granted. Similarly, in this regard, it should not necessarily be taken for granted. We have to work towards ensuring the relationship between cybersecurity command and the cybersecurity centre is good but also clear and defined. I do not need a further response beyond that but that is important.”
“We welcome the progress that has been made. A lot more personnel will be needed over time, particularly when you look at the scale of personnel envisioned in the Commission on the Defence Forces. We could do with some clarity on the relationship between the cybersecurity command and the National Cyber Security Centre. It was previously answerable to the Department of communications. It is now in the Department of justice and home affairs. I am open-minded but is there any danger of having too many cooks? Is there a clear understanding? I would imagine that if the National Cyber Security Centre is located in the Department of justice, the primary responsibility for cybersecurity policy therefore rests with the Department of justice. Operationally, what does that mean?”
“This is going to be a challenging area for this and every jurisdiction. I know work is being advanced. Returning to the area of specialist personnel, it is an area that is going to be crucial. Will the Minister provide an update on developments? I know some specialist staff have been taken on. I think we determined previously that the cybersecurity command has been established. Will the Minster give an update on the next number of actions in that area?”
“As I said, there is not a great deal to add. If it is being worked on, that is welcome. Please keep us updated. It was suggested that a defence amendment Bill may be in the pipeline. I cannot say I will vote for it but I might vote for that section. Please keep the House and the committee updated. I appreciate it is not possible in the current legislative framework but it is logical and welcome that that be addressed.”
“The objective of RACO is that they would receive the allowances, protections and entitlements afforded to all other members of the Defence Forces such that in practical terms, chaplains would be members of the Defence Forces even if legally that is not the case. There are examples in others sectors. School chaplains are represented by the INTO, so there is a precedent.”
“Perhaps there is not a great deal more that can be added to that. Fr. Murphy, in particular, is regarded with great affection and trust by members of the Defence Forces. He responded to that attack with great courage and a great deal of grace as well. It is an important role. This was discussed at the RACO conference. As outlined, the legal advice is that chaplains are not members of the Defence Forces but it is difficult to reconcile that with the reality that they wear the uniform, they are employed overseas and they are remunerated by the Department of Defence, as well as other elements.”
“In August 2024, Fr. Paul Murphy was the subject of a heinous attack at Dún Uí Mhaoilíosa in Galway. It was an appalling attack. It underscored the vulnerability of those serving in the unique and vital role of military chaplains to our Defence Forces. I am seeking an update - I know it was discussed recently - on the issue of representation for chaplains working for and paid by the Department of Defence.”
“In terms of the retention of officers and personnel more generally in the Defence Forces, we need a specialist pay review to be established. We need to review the post-2013 pension arrangements and training establishment.”
“Very often, people want to serve. The Minister spoke about the quality of the people he inspected recently. The men and women of the Defence Forces are our greatest asset. Even at times when payments and allowances were less favourable, people wanted to join. The difficulty is that many of these people are very capable, skilled and experienced and are the kind of people private industry wants. In many instances, the challenge we have faced is that highly qualified and very capable members of the Defence Forces, due to their difficulty in making ends meet or the pressures they are under due to the cost of living crisis, see more attractive pay and conditions in industries such as pharmaceuticals, medtech and other areas.”
“A specialist pay review was recommended by the Commission on the Defence Forces in 2022, which has not been established, to provide an ongoing review of the application of existing specialist pay rates and allowances and to make recommendations where adjustments are required. This has yet to be seen and would have retained highly skilled members of the Defence Forces.”
“I welcome an increase in Defence Force numbers, given that this has been a matter of discussion in these Houses for a number of years in terms of the recruitment and retention crisis. The advance we are talking about is quite modest given the context. We are far from the commission on the future of the Defence Forces. We are below establishment and the minimum acceptable level of personnel. I want to focus on officers. Governance in the Defence Forces is a key factor when it comes to national security. There are 330 officers in the Defence Forces with less than five years' experience. That points to the fact that we have found it difficult to retain experienced and well-trained officers who can aid and assist in training young officers in the interests of national security. A key aspect of this is retention.”
“We have had discussions regarding a number of these issues. We have talked about the triple lock and that relates to the deployment of our troops abroad. A lot has been said about the world that is changing. It is my view that the Defence Forces were allowed to go significantly backwards by successive governments. That is true in terms of equipment but it is also most true in terms of personnel. We are well below establishment. It is not acceptable and it needs to be addressed quite urgently.”
“The cost is a consideration. It is vitally important that value for money is achieved but also that it is of the highest standard and it is secure. We talked about whether the naval and the aircraft capacity existed. There is also the issue of personnel. Will there be a requirement for additional specialist personnel in order to operate this? The Minister talked about it being rolled out in parts. Can he give us a sense of the sequence of those? What are the most advanced parts or the earliest parts of that to be delivered? This is a vitally important piece of infrastructure. There are very real threats in our seas. How we address those when we know about them is a different and an important debate but first, we need to know. We need to have the picture but we do not currently have that. So, it is vitally important.”
“Do we have the capacity, in terms of our current fleet, to deliver that? Similarly, do we have the capacity with the air picture?”
“The primary radar system and the full radar picture is one of the cornerstones of the transformation of the Defence Forces and it is crucial we get it right, not least because it will cost a substantial sum of money. Can the Tánaiste give us a sense of what kind of sums we are talking about because it is important we apply lessons learned from other public contracts to this project? There was a discussion yesterday on the relationship between Britain and Ireland. There was a discussion about security. One of the points advanced was military expenditure. People talk about the amount spent but it can be spent well or can be spent badly. Obviously, it is essential we achieve value for money in delivering this. The Tánaiste talked about the naval radar picture and the requirement that it would be ship-borne.”
“The Tánaiste's previous answer tailors well enough with this question. One of the key priorities in how we tailor investment in our Defence Forces is our naval capacity and our understanding of what is in Irish waters. That is probably the number one issue of concern for us and for our neighbours. The most important piece of infrastructure is ensuring that we have that full radar picture, which is something we have been missing for a very long time. Can we get an update for the rollout of that and a timeline for completion?”
“However, only one political party - it was not his party - came to the last general election with anything even resembling a manifesto commitment that gave it any kind of mandate. Deputy Murphy is right when he suggests there is a better way of defining public opinion. If the Government is willing - we are certainly willing - to put this to the people and have a clear question asked of them in order to get a clear answer in relation to this, I am quite confident as to what the outcome will be. The presidential election might be the best barometer we have, albeit imperfect and thrown in with a lot of other things. However, the Government has the ability for a more precise measurement of public opinion. Why not proceed with that?”
“The greatest test of sovereignty in this jurisdiction is the Irish people. Would the Tánaiste consider putting a significant proposal that has constitutional ramifications to the Irish people?”
“This is an issue that has seen a fair bit of discussion recently. In the context of a presidential election and a presidential candidate, or our President, it is not an area in which they have executive power, but the nature of all presidential elections is that there is discussion about Ireland's place in the world, how we see ourselves and how we can best exercise influence internationally. The candidate who, in my view, articulated very clearly a vision for an Ireland that holds its own course and that is neutral, as a clear-eyed assessment of our place in the world and of how best we can use our influence, won a resounding mandate. Most opinion polls indicate very strong support not only for Ireland's policy of military neutrality but also for retaining the triple lock. The Tánaiste has talked a great deal about sovereignty.”
“We have had a fair bit of airtime and a fair bit of discussion in this place in relation to the Government's plans to scrap the triple lock, and they are to end the triple lock, not to amend or adjust it. I recall that in the committee we were told there was a great rush to try to move along with pre-legislative scrutiny in order to ensure that legislation would be ready. That was far from ideal; however, we on the committee did our best. We are still none the wiser as to what legislation has come out the other end. Perhaps the Tánaiste could give us an update.”
“I have been saying that for quite some time. It is important we have a debate. It is important we have an honest and robust debate. I trust the Irish people to have that debate. I trust their ability to weigh up common sense and common decency and to analyse it with sobriety and sense. What is never acceptable, in any circumstance, are racism, xenophobia and treating people as lesser because of their skin colour or ethnicity. What is never acceptable is intimidation or violence. I take the opportunity to totally condemn the incident in Drogheda that put young people, children and a family at risk. That is never acceptable. We can and should have a debate but there is no place and no room in our society or democracy for that kind of violence, intimidation or racism.”
“The confidence of the public and the people of Ireland has been totally lost in this respect. The Government's policy needs to balance common sense with common decency in ensuring rules are applied. When people are not entitled to be in Ireland, the rules need to be enforced so they are returned to where they came from. Always, we must remember the human dignity of each individual, successful or not, and that each applicant is treated with respect and given adequate conditions. We have detailed much of how the system can be improved in our policy proposal, A Fair System That Works, some small elements of which have been taken on board by Government. I urge it to return to that. I have heard a number of people in this Chamber and outside it say there is a need for a debate on this whole area. I totally agree.”
“The approach of this Government and the previous one to migration, and international protection in particular, has been a failure. It has failed to ensure a fair system that works. It has failed communities, which have felt ignored and not properly engaged with. While there are some good people in the system, there are nowhere near enough and the system as a whole is set up badly in terms of engagement. It has failed applicants who often end up in totally inadequate accommodation. It has profoundly failed in terms of value for money having, for far too long, relied almost exclusively on private provision leading to incredible waste and companies making huge sums. It has failed to deliver quick decisions that are in everyone's interest and has failed to ensure their enforcement.”
“They are either not able to begin their lives or they have ended up in emergency accommodation towards the end of their lives. We have to tackle the social issues. Like so many other issues in terms of men's health and men's mental health, the housing crisis has a huge impact on that.”
“Several of the issues relate to cancer and the extent to which particular cancers affect men. While men die from them, mortality is not the only thing we should be looking at. Sometimes, the treatment and effects or side-effects of that can cause huge quality-of-life issues, and this needs consideration. I also acknowledge the very welcome initiative that exists in terms of Movember and the work that has been done in that context as regards prostate cancer and other cancers. To briefly make two further points, it is worth saying that, ultimately, we will continue to have these issues unless we tackle the social issues underpinning them. An awful lot of men I meet in my constituency office are struggling with housing issues, which is contributing to the mental pressures and the loneliness they face.”
“It is appropriate that we have a focus on women's health and the various issues particular to women, for example, reproductive rights and supports for that, but it is right that the particular issues facing men are focused on as well. We see two in five men in Ireland will die before the age of 75. Men account for four out of every five suicide deaths in Ireland. Men are 34% more likely to die from cancer than women. It is clearly right that there is a particular strategy and set of policies that are required. I acknowledge "The Real Face of Men's Health" report, published by the National Centre for Men's Health at SETU, which identified the extent to which men died from preventable diseases and that the preventable diseases in men cost Ireland more than €700 million in 2023 alone.”
“Fáiltím go bhfuil na ráitis seo ar siúl inniu. Is gné d'ár gcóras sláinte é nach bhfuair an méid airde thar na blianta is ar cóir go bhfaigheadh sé. Is léir go bhfuil difríocht mhór ann ó thaobh na ngalar a tholgann fir agus cé chomh tinn a éiríonn siad, go mór mór ó thaobh na meabhairshláinte ach freisin ó thaobh go leor ábhar eile. Tá an dá ghné thábhachtach ó thaobh na mban agus na hábhair sláinte atá tábhachtach dóibh siúd - tá ábhar sláinte faoi leith atá an-bhainteach leo, agus is gá go mbeadh plean faoi leith ansin - ach tá sé fíor d'fhir freisin. I welcome these statements. This is an area of our healthcare - men's health - that has not got enough attention over the years. It clearly should. There are clearly significant differences and particular issues that relate to men.”
“Does the Taoiseach accept that this is completely unacceptable and that it is a stain on our society that so many people are homeless? Will he reinstate the previous funding position of tenant in situ to stop more people going into homelessness?”
“Tá an ghéarchéim daoine gan dídean imithe thar fóir go hiomlán. The Taoiseach might have seen the launch of Cork Simon's annual report. He insists to us that the Government's housing strategy is working, whether it is Homes for All or Rebuilding Ireland, yet everything keeps going up in terms of homelessness. Cork Simon has been operating since the early 1970s. In its 55 years, it has never had a higher average of people requiring its supports. There are more people in emergency accommodation than ever, with 679 in Cork. That is probably going to go up next Friday; we could nearly set our clocks by it. It is getting worse by every metric, with an increase in people requiring outreach and in those requiring meals.”
“People in Passage West are probably thinking about whether it could be spent on housing or health services. Progress needs to be made. There is a cost to the State and a significant nuisance. A firm timeline or specific calendar date is one thing but it is frustrating to see no timeline at all has been given. Could the Minster of State give me greater insight, either here or in writing, into the specific regulatory issues outstanding? Could we be given any sense of a timeline? It is not good enough to have none.”
“We do not really have any sense of when this will be concluded, and that is not good enough at all. I appreciate that it might not be possible to give a calendar date. Could we have a vague sense of whether this will be dealt with in the next couple of months, in the next year or even later? The vessel is a significant nuisance. Every time it must be towed, which is three or four times per month, there are various implications, including noise. The cost has to be considered too. Revenue has stated this is in excess of €10 million. The vast bulk of this, amounting to €8 million to €9 million, is associated with crewing and maintenance. Every day of every week the vessel sits in Passage West Harbour waiting to be disposed of costs the State a significant amount of money – money that could be better spent on other things.”
“People will be frustrated by that response. People have been patient enough already about this. As I read it, we have a preferred bidder who remains interested and who is continuing to engage with the Revenue Commissioners. The issue with flagging has been resolved. Significant progress has been made in that regard. The Minister of State said certain regulatory and port state control matters had to be addressed. That could mean anything. We are no clearer about the actual obstacles and precisely how they will be overcome. While it is not possible to give a firm timeline, even a general sense of one would help. People in Passage West, Monkstown and the surrounding areas, and indeed Cobh and Rushbrooke, which are on the far side of the harbour, are worried that this could drag on and on.”
“It has cost some €10 million to date. Every time the vessel has to be towed back and forth across the harbour, it represents an additional cost in terms of crew, equipment and so on. The costs are adding up and the people on the ground in Passage West are asking me and Councillor Fahy when the ship will be moved on. The court case ended almost a year ago but the boat is still towering over the town, with all the noise implications and so on. When will we see it removed? What steps have been taken to date to see it removed, and what are the outstanding obstacles? People have been patient enough and understood there was a court case going on. That case has now concluded and the vessel needs to be removed. The people of Passage West need to be in a position to get on with life and get past this.”
“Subsequently, in September 2024, which is 11 months ago at this stage, it was advised that the vessel could be removed. Unfortunately, it is still there. This is a massive boat. It is 200 m long. It regularly has to be towed from one side of the harbour to the other. Three or four times per month, it must be brought from Marino Point across to the docks at Passage West, which is a residential town. This has created significant issues with noise, particularly in the Church Hill area of Passage West. There have been issues with smells that come and go. The boat is towed back and forth regularly, with significant implications for the people of Passage West in terms of noise, nuisance and so on. This has been dragging on for some time. The people of Passage West have been quite patient. The other element of this is the cost involved.”
“The Minister of State will be aware that, in October 2023, the MV Matthew was intercepted and seized. There was €157 million worth of cocaine on board. It was an extraordinary Garda operation and great credit is due to all the gardaí and others involved. However, the people of Passage West have had to put up with the very large vessel ever since. It is about 200 m in length and has been docked in Cork Harbour since its seizure. Local councillor Eoghan Fahy and I have raised this with the Government and also the Revenue Commissioners. We were informed initially that the vessel was required for evidence, that it was seized under the provisions of the Customs Act 2015 and that it remained under the care and management of the Revenue Commissioners. When the court proceedings concluded, eight men were convicted.”
“I am curious about the Tánaiste's assessment of the US position at this time and how it can more fruitfully bring pressure to bear.”
“We have discussed Ireland and the EU. If anything can be assessed from the past few years, it is that the United States still carries a huge amount of influence. Who deserves credit for various ceasefires can be debated. A peace deal in Gaza is welcome, but it is clear that where the US wishes to exert influence and pressure, it achieves results in many instances. What is the Tánaiste's assessment of the American position at this point? It seems that Russia and Vladimir Putin have been allowed to pay limited lip service to negotiations without ever having to meaningfully engage in them. They have not felt the pressure they ought to have felt. Europe is maybe attempting to exert more influence, although it is facing certain roadblocks, as we discussed.”
“Is the Tánaiste satisfied that to the best of his knowledge that issue has been entirely resolved and that no sanctions are being evaded in that manner?”
“Exploration of such matters is important and a lot of what Ireland is in a position to do is at a European level. As a lot of actions are being blocked by particular member states, such as Hungary and perhaps others in other circumstances, it is important that we continue to examine what actions Ireland can take by itself. The Tánaiste has had communication and some work has been done on dual-use technologies that potentially - inadvertently - end up in the hands of Russia to be used as weaponry. It has been a while since there has been much discussion of this, but at the start of the conflict, there was some discussion on Russian companies using section 110 shell organisations to avoid sanctions. I think some action was taken to resolve that.”
“We had a beneficial engagement with the Ukrainian ambassador, H.E. Ms Larysa Gerasko, last week. She provided an update on the considerable challenges facing the Ukrainian people in their fight with the Russian Federation. The war of aggression has been going on for a number of years. There are a number of upsetting elements to it, in particular the abducted children. Will the Tánaiste give an update on the Irish Government's actions in relation to Ukraine?”
“It is already the position of this Government that people should not trade with the occupied territories. What this Bill proposes to do is make that a criminal offence. I think this is right. It should be a criminal offence with regard to goods and it is not more morally acceptable for somebody to trade in services with the occupied territories, so it is the morally correct thing to do to ensure that there is a legal ban on that and that is a criminal offence. No reason has been produced as yet to say why it is any different in terms of services or why that is more legally challenging.”
“That does not necessarily make it any clearer as to what exactly will be in this Bill. Ireland is not a major country in the grand scheme of these things. It is about using what levers are at our disposal. There have been a number of levers and recognition was important. This is important. Had we not had this debate over the past number of years about this, it would not have ended up being discussed in so many other jurisdictions, including in the options paper at European Commission level, so it is important. It is also important that the example being set by Ireland and potentially being followed by others, although others have now taken further initiatives, is strong. There is no legal reason not to include services. There is no moral reason.”
“While I appreciate that this came a European initiative, ultimately, the practical effect of it within this jurisdiction is the same. It implies the same obligation and burden on companies to ensure due diligence and the same obligations on the Tánaiste's Department to ensure it also. What is the difference between the situation there and the situation in Palestine?”
“What is planned is perhaps not crystal clear to those of us on this side of the House at this point. I think many people would have been concerned by the Taoiseach's comments last week that seemed to suggest that it was simply not practical to ban services. A number of questions arise in relation to that. The Tánaiste has said in the past that there is no difference between the Government and the Opposition in relation to policy on this. Much of what the Taoiseach seemed to flag were differences of policy in relation to implications and so on, rather than legal issues. Regarding the practicality of the legal issues, it is the case that the sanctions that were placed against Russia and Russian occupied parts of Ukraine, did include a ban on services.”
“Like many others in the House, I welcome the fact that a peace plan has taken some form. I am very concerned about the fragility of it. Dozens of people have been killed even since the ceasefire. As the Tánaiste noted, extra-judicial killings are to be condemned as well, so undoubtedly the peace is very fragile. As with any peace, a ceasefire is only part of it. A political solution needs to be a part of it too and part of that needs to be ensuring the application of international law. Therefore, it should remain the position of the Irish Government that in the occupied territories, the illegal settlements need to be treated as illegal and the occupied territories Bill needs to give effect to that.”
“Has the Irish Government directly raised with the governments of the countries in question its concerns regarding the continued flow of weapons to the area, which continues to exacerbate what is an appalling conflict that is causing enormous human suffering?”
“I appreciate the Minister of State's comments and agree with him. It is an extraordinarily severe humanitarian situation. People are facing starvation and dying for lack of food and medicine, while the conflict carries on unabated. This is being exacerbated by the flow of weapons. It has been alleged that certain countries are continuing to supply a significant amount of weapons both to the Sudanese Government and to the RSF. The Irish Government is likely aware of some of these reports. Some of the countries in question deny they are supplying arms but they are coming from somewhere; that is for sure.”
“The situation in that part of Darfur and in Darfur generally is very severe. I understand there have been negotiations involving President Donald Trump's envoy to Africa, Mr. Boulos, for increased access of aid to El Fasher and the surrounding area. Is the Irish Government aware of whether there has been any progress on that or if there is any relief regarding what was effectively a complete blockage on aid into that area?”