Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire
Cork South-Central · Sinn Féin · Ireland
“That is important and the Minister and I share that view, much as we disagree on how it is not right to get rid of the triple lock. We have made that very clear and we think there is scope to deploy on peacekeeping missions elsewhere.”
“As I probably will not get more questions and it is my last contribution before the recess, I wish to take the opportunity to thank the staff of this institution and the Ceann Comhairle's office, who serve us so well.”
“We have all probably been guilty of the offence of going over time at different stages, I am sure. Despite our disagreements in relation to the triple lock, I think the Minister and I agree that peacekeeping missions are important.”
“In the context of the previous question, I submitted another question that was ruled out of order, which is fair enough. I probably did not word my question as precisely as Deputy Gibney worded hers. I record my concern about legal representation in that regard. It is important to say that. This question relates to another welfare issue.”
“The Minister said that she is not pushing anybody to the courts. I am not a doctor and cannot make a clinical decision, but if people suffered negative health outcomes that they believe have a connection to their clinical exposure, and they have never taken a case, how precisely is the Government going to help them?”
“The Minister talks about the need to ensure that Defence Forces personnel have the ability to deploy internationally and are not prevented from participating in rescue missions. I have no problem at all with head No. 7. Actually, most of the legislation is fine. It is just head No.”
The complete record
Every one of 902 lines we hold for Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire, in date order, each linked to its source. Free to read, in full, without an account. Page 15 of 19.
“Hospitals have been destroyed, reflecting the inhumanity and the barbarism. Every time we think it has reached a new depth, it reaches even further depths. Deputy Doherty is right; there are people who are desperate to do whatever they can. For most Irish people, it feels there is probably very little they can do. Sometimes people out protesting wonder: what it is for? I suspect that many things the Government has done - and there are things it has done that I have welcomed - would not have happened without pressure from the public. This is another thing the Irish Government can do. I look forward to hearing the Minister's response but I suspect, much like the occupied territories Bill, it is very easy to say, "Oh, well, there are legal consequences", and not really flesh it out in truth.”
“Throughout my life, which is not the shortest or the longest life, there have been conflicts and atrocities but I cannot remember anything like this. In my whole life, the only thing I can imagine that holds anything like this viciousness, senselessness, waste and slaughter is the genocide in Rwanda. I say that because it is. People would have been reluctant to use that word, but what else can we be talking about than the deliberate destruction of a place, a people and a people's right to live there? With the scenes we see, we could have this debate every week and talk about the fresh hell we have seen on our phones and televisions. The most recent image many of us would have seen was a child walking around flames in the school where she was sleeping overnight, which was destroyed.”
“I note some of what was said in terms of something new I have not seen before. I refer to whether the authority exists in terms of bail and whether someone can be remanded. I do not at this point have the ability to evaluate whether that is correct. There is no doubt, however, that the system as a whole profoundly failed, and it is hard not to see a pattern. The Minister has recognised this in the past. I hope that this will not be the end of it. I welcome the scholarship and the changes in legislation, but the truth still needs to be established. I ask the Minister to consider this further. I again commend the O'Farrell family and extend my thoughts to them for everything they have been through.”
“Undoubtedly, there were failings. There were real and profound failings concerning in what has happened. It is impossible to escape the conclusion that if things had been done as they should have done, Shane O'Farrell might still be alive. The things that might have been done include Gridziuska having been brought back to Judge O'Hagan and the appeal having been recorded and reported in the way that it should have been. It is difficult to escape this conclusion. I note several things from the Minister's statement. I welcome the apology, but it was stated that, "We could spend many years inquiring into these facts - facts that are already known". The Dáil voted for a public inquiry in 2018. The Seanad voted for an inquiry in 2019. That is several years in which much of that work could have been done.”
“I cannot imagine how difficult it is for the O'Farrell family to listen to so much of the detail being repeated, but I think it is a significant step that an apology has been achieved. I commend the O'Farrell family for their campaigning. I had many meetings with Lucia and the family. In my nine years in this place, she is one of the most impressive people I have ever met. I refer to her level of detail and just seeing things that passed other people by. As the Minister stated, there is no question but that we would not be in this position other than from Lucia's campaigning. I know she was supported by the whole family and by people outside the family, but there is no question about the fact that we would not be at this stage without her. We cannot think of what happened to Shane O'Farrell as just a tragedy - and it was a tragedy.”
“That did not need to happen. It did not need to get to that situation. Cork City Council would have operated on the basis that funding would have been forthcoming for purchases under the tenant in situ scheme. When will the Taoiseach ensure that funding is reinstated to assist families such as Victoria's, and prevent them from becoming homeless, which is the potential situation that they face this week?”
“I want to tell the Taoiseach about a case facing a woman called Victoria. Victoria is renting in Cork at the minute. She has seven children, is a single mother and a survivor of domestic abuse. Two of her children have additional needs. After her landlord went to sell the property, Cork City Council engaged with the landlord under the tenant in situ scheme. On this understanding - the correct understanding, I would have said at the time in terms of funding - Cork City Council went sale agreed on the property in January with Victoria's landlord. They heard nothing until April, when it became the funding cut to the tenant in situ scheme became clear. Her notice to quit is this Friday, 30 May. As things stand, she will be looking at presenting to APS, the homeless service in Cork City Council, with her seven children.”
“If I may, with the Chair's indulgence, I was not aware of it at the time I spoke and I wish to add my condemnation of that appalling attack. It is a disgraceful attack on any diplomat particularly Irish diplomats.”
“Let us be frank. The future survival of Gaza - its actual existence, as well as that of its people - is at stake. That is not hyperbole. I wish it was. I urge the Tánaiste to issue strong words, yes. Strong statements matter but, by God, actions matter a lot more. Are there more actions we can take that we are not taking? There certainly are.”
“Words matter, but actions matter more. I welcome the progress on the EU association agreement, which is something we called for. There is a lot more that is needed. On the occupied territories Bill, I think at one stage the Taoiseach understood why that was a logical conclusion of the International Court of Justice decision. It is about the fact that settlements are illegal and require consequences. There is no distinction between goods and services in the judgment. The Tánaiste should not make a distinction either.”
“I think many people would have baulked and would have found that word highly charged, but it is difficult to dispute that there is an intent to effectively destroy Gaza and the people of Gaza as a people.”
“I extend that point to say that pain exists for every human. Like the Taoiseach, I condemn the attacks on 7 October and the pain their relatives felt. There is no justification for that either but how could that occasion this level of collective punishment on a civilian population on a scale we can hardly imagine? Out of 35 hospitals, 33 are damaged. These are the very hospitals that are trying to deal with the carnage, the bombings, the starvation and every possible kind of human suffering off the back of that. These hospitals are struggling to survive. Maybe we struggle to find words. Some words do matter; I will say that too. "War crimes" - it matters to say that. It also matters to say "genocide".”
“It is difficult to find the words for the scale. We are talking about 14,000 babies dying, that level of starvation. This is no flood, hurricane or crop failure. It is a result of a deliberate decision to starve people and deny them essential medical equipment and food. It is based on deeply malicious intent to punish a civilian population. If it is difficult to find words in terms of scale, it is even more difficult to find words in terms of the individual and the pain, with families completely wiped out, children left without anybody in the world, communities wiped out, with their histories, their stories and everyone belonging to them completely gone. I refer to the pain mothers and fathers must feel and the pain children must feel when they think of their parents and everyone belonging to them now gone.”
“Four and a half minutes, I think; okay. The Taoiseach in his opening speech said that it is difficult to find words for the human suffering. That is true, it is difficult to find words. It is difficult to find words for the scale of it. When before in any international situation could we have ever imagined a UN official talking about 14,000 babies potentially facing starvation within 48 hours? Can we think of any precedent that even casts the tiniest shadow on a statement like that? There is no comparison. There is no comparison for the total destruction of Gaza in terms of hospitals, schools, refugee camps and bombs raining down on innocent civilians in their tens of thousands. Hundreds of people have been killed in recent days. The potential for a ceasefire is a distant shadow at this stage. Dozens of children have died in that time.”
“Tá mé ag impí ar an Aire maoiniú a thabhairt do Cara’s Fund. I am urging the Minister to support the motion later and to fund Cara's Fund.”
“The focus at that point was on special school places but they never lost sight of the fact that it is not isolated and that does not solve everything by any means. If a child gets a seat in a classroom, it does not solve all the issues and does not ensure that child reach their full potential. Sometimes, in this place, we get so used to a particular phrase for a policy, such as assessment of need, that it loses meaning. If we think about what it actually is and what it means for a parent, an assessment of need identifies what that child needs from the health system, education, therapies, meeting the child, understanding the child, and seeing how you can meet the child's best potential. How frustrating is it for that child and the child's parents to know that there is not even the basis for a plan for them to proceed?”
“The failure that is happening here is profound for parents and most importantly for their children, but also for the professionals working in the field. It feels as if the system is shuddering to a halt and is completely choking up, and the situation continues to get worse and worse. More than 15,000 children are waiting for an assessment of need. There are more than 2,000 in my county, Cork. Many of them have been waiting for over a year, of which many have been waiting for over 30 months. It is a scandalous situation. A few weeks ago, I attended a number of protests organised by parents, Nicole Hosford, Karen McGrath and people like that, who have been here and have met officials from the Departments.”
“One of the key sites there - the Gouldings site - will potentially have 1,300 units. The Gouldings site cannot go ahead until Gouldings can relocate to farther out in the harbour. That is being held up because of the condition of the R624, which includes Belvelly Bridge, a 200-year-old bridge. There has not been enough investment in that infrastructure. It might seem like a local road, but it potentially unlocks a key strategic site. I urge the Minister to meet Cork County Council and Cork City Council to figure this out. There is a huge site there that has massive potential. It needs to deliver affordable housing and communities, but it will not deliver anything until the issue with the R624 is resolved.”
“There is a whole category of people who do not qualify for social housing but the affordable housing schemes will not do anything for them. The schemes are not within the reach of those people. That is also held back by the infrastructure issues. I have talked to small and large builders and developers. They are frustrated with Uisce Éireann and compare it to the times of city and county councils when things were far from perfect, but the difference now is that it is slowing everything down. It is blocking crucial housing infrastructure. I also flag to the Minister the issue of the R624. The Minister was in the docklands in Cork recently. There is huge potential there. We need to get it right. Housing there needs to be affordable. It cannot only be apartments for people on high incomes. A community needs to be built there.”
“I was mystified by the approach of the Government to housing. I was mystified during the election campaign but I am twice as mystified now. From committing to things that would make things worse, it has moved on to implementing things that would make things worse, such as the rent pressure zones and effectively getting rid of crucial tenant protections such as the tenant in situ scheme. That complements the fact that the Government's policy is not really addressing the key obstacles to housing and will not deliver housing at an affordable level. Many people in my city and county of Cork and across the country are doing everything right. They are doing everything they can. They are saving, working, trying to improve their education and training and so on, but housing remains out of reach for them.”
“I know we are talking apprenticeships and trades in the broadest sense, but the traditional craft trades are important. It is difficult for small tradespeople to take on apprentices - certainly, they perceive it to be difficult - for a number of reasons, one of which is the block release and the fact that people feel they lose this person who has been working with them for five or six weeks at a time.. Whatever the solutions are, there needs to be a direct dialogue with small tradespeople in some mechanism.”
“I said last week in respect of another issue that it seemed incredible how Government parties had been able to get away with throwing around very expensive commitments on fees, the means test for carer's allowance and issues like the occupied territories Bill during the election only for them to be completely forgotten about afterwards. I will flag some of my hobby horses with the new Minister in the time I have left. One of the biggest obstacles in some of the most in-demand apprenticeship courses, such as electricians and instrumentation, is being able to find instructors. Competing with the private sector is very challenging for ETBs and the technological universities that provide those courses. It is a significant challenge and needs to be looked at with industry. There also needs to be a discussion with small tradespersons.”
“If there was space to stretch the budget, it has now reached the point at which things are very definitely going to suffer in terms of the quality of education and the ability to attract students. It is at a tipping point. If it ever was possible to do more with less, that is certainly gone. The funding deficits are significant barriers on the capital side of things - the fabric of some of buildings and how lots of these places that are very old and obsolete - and, in certain respects, on the student experience. It is incredible to call it a free fees scheme when it costs €3,000.”
“I agree with Deputy John Connolly. We always need to keep education in its broadest sense in mind. Fundamentally, it is about ensuring people can reach their full potential regardless of the area. Notwithstanding that, it remains a strategic consideration for any Government, particularly in the current context. Regarding Ireland's competitiveness, it is crucial that we ensure that Ireland continues to be seen as a place with a high-quality, skilled workforce in terms of graduates, apprenticeships and across the board. My engagements with people in the third level sector have primarily been with those in UCC and MTU. There is a feeling that the days of being able to do more with less are gone.”
“I would also make the point, not strongly but as something that needs to be considered, that I would be somewhat of the view that we need to consider carefully the ecosystem around cybersecurity. We need to be careful about having too many cooks in all the different agencies that could potentially have a role. I am not saying they do not all have a role but that needs some consideration and thought over the next while.”
“This comes back to my earlier question a little bit. We will continue to have a significant challenge in recruiting and retaining key staff for an area such as this unless something significant changes. If we get things right, the Defence Forces can offer a very rewarding and interesting career for people who have the skills and capabilities in this area but I do not think we are in the right position at present. I did not take a note of the number of staff the Tánaiste mentioned but we are speaking about a number of staff being recruited or seconded for the cybersecurity command. The long-term ambition is 100 additional staff under level of ambition two and up to 300 or another 200 additional staff under level of ambition three. Where are we at with regard to specialist staff?”
“Perhaps he will give me a timeline on when it was established and whether the lead person has been appointed and when they took office.”
“This is clearly an ever evolving and growing area that will be of crucial importance to the Defence Forces and our security in the coming time. The Tánaiste instanced the new committee and it is very important that it is given adequate briefings on these issues as they arise and develop. The Tánaiste mentioned the cybersecurity command had been established. The most recent report I saw in The Irish Times was that it was to be established. Perhaps there is more up-to-date information than that. I understood the Department and the Defence Forces had advertised for a cybersecurity lead. Perhaps the Tánaiste can inform me on whether the person has been appointed. I tabled my question to seek an update on the establishment and the Tánaiste is saying it has been established.”
“It will take a health study to identify what can be connected or what is connected to chemical exposure but it seems to me, given that a direct connection was found in Australia and the Netherlands, these men, as it is almost exclusively men, perhaps with one or two women, were exposed to very dangerous chemicals. A lot of them are really sick. Many of them have died, and their families and friends believe they did so prematurely. This is very serious. I encourage the Tánaiste to engage with the ACCAS and any other relevant people to try to find a policy solution, aside from the courts solution.”
“I put the Tánaiste on notice that I will be bringing this up again in six weeks and six weeks after that too. I am going to continue to pursue this. I would like it if we could bracket the State Claims Agency part and put that to one side because that is not what I am talking about. That needs to proceed and I hope it works out well, or as well as possible, for those affected. One of the key points is that not everybody can afford to take the State to court. One of the organisations representing people is the Air Corps Chemical Abuse Survivors, ACCAS. It does not comprise clinicians, and I am not a clinician, but it has identified 97 untimely deaths, and I believe it has used that phrase deliberately and carefully.”
“There is nothing at this moment in time to prevent the Minister, without interfering in court cases, from engaging with representatives of those who were affected to ask what the State can do in terms of an examination of the health outcomes. The best example, although it may not be perfect, is the one I gave from Australia, the Study of Health Outcomes in Aircraft Maintenance Personnel, SHOAMP, which identified the implications because personnel were facing serious issues.”
“I do not accept that for one second. Over many years, this House has dealt with many issues that have been proceeding through the courts and the State rightly did not intervene as between the two different parties or try to disturb the process of the courts. However, that is totally separate from whether the State itself identifies that there is a policy issue and a need for a policy response in relation to a category of people without interfering in the court process. That has happened numerous times, for example, with regard to the Magdalen laundries and different things like that where schemes were set up.”
“Over the course of many years, it seems many Air Corps personnel, primarily young working-class people who took jobs in the maintenance department of the Air Corps, were exposed to very hazardous and dangerous conditions with very few, or effectively no, safety precautions, certainly nothing by way of masks, adequate ventilation and so on. There are huge concerns about the health implications this has for those former personnel, and I will detail that later. I want to specifically ask the Minister if he has engaged with any of those affected or their representative groups and how he intends to ensure their health is safeguarded and supported.”
“The UN is imperfect but the point is that if we are talking about participating in UN missions without a UN mandate, we are talking about participating in non-UN missions. We are talking about participating in missions without knowing what kind of missions they are. The Minister talked about conflating the two issues. The Irish public can be forgiven for that, given the context of the various referenda and the statements of successive Irish Governments, primarily made up of Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael, which made that connection themselves during the course of referenda when arguing that the triple lock was a crucial protection for neutrality. That was the argument made then. I think the Irish people can be forgiven for remembering that.”
“There was not a person in Ireland who wanted us to withdraw troops from the Golan Heights or was in favour of that, and that was done for budgetary reasons. That was for budgetary reasons because of the Government. That was the primary obstacle. The last time Irish troops were pulled out of a peacekeeping mission, it was entirely the decision of the Irish Government and it was not informed by anything to do with the triple lock. I do not think that particular example bears it out. I would again make the point that it is not the case that there are some UN missions that will go ahead without us because of the triple lock that we would otherwise like to participate in. There are no UN missions without the UN mandate.”
“The triple lock legislation and the defence Acts do not prevent the rescue of Irish civilians or prevent us participating in missions to intercept drugs or anything like that. To examples such as those given, we have no objection. The triple lock is the problem there.”
“My question is somewhat different from Deputy Gibney's, although hers makes an important distinction that needs to be made. People have been talking about the Security Council. There is no dispute that the world is changing. That is recognised. It is a question of what Ireland's place in this changing world is. If we remove the triple lock neutrality protection, we will potentially expose ourselves to significant external pressure to participate in missions that the Irish public does not wish to participate in and that, according to the Tánaiste's bona fides, he does not wish to either. It is a rash approach and one not in our strategic interests. Several of the examples given are not, in fact, covered by the triple lock. The triple lock was brought in in 1960 in respect of peacekeeping missions.”
“The cyber, tech, IT and pharmaceutical sectors are seeing staff members being trained by the State and the Defence Forces and understand the benefits of recruiting them. There is not enough in the Defence Forces to keep those personnel. These schemes have been used in the past. I encourage the Tánaiste to consider them in advance of the next budget so we can retain staff.”
“The Defence Forces face challenges. If anybody is going to be decoupling the issues of pay and recruitment, it certainly will not be me. It is very much the case that they are linked. The point I am raising relates to the retention of existing staff and not recruiting new staff, which is also a challenge. Aside from the category that is covered by the service commitment, there are whole areas with significant problems. I will later ask the Tánaiste a question about cybersecurity. How are we going to be able to retain people, particularly in Ireland, with the number of tech companies here? How are we going to be able to retain people with cybersecurity expertise with the competition we could face? I have made a point about the issues relating to artificers. There are also issues in respect of explosive ordnance disposal officers.”
“I understand that in recent weeks, three or four people involved in air traffic control at Baldonnel have left the Defence Forces, which creates potentially significant difficulties for the Air Corps and the Government jet. If the Tánaiste would comment on that, I would welcome it. The problem I am identifying is in retaining staff. We need to consider schemes to ensure that personnel are retained and not taken by the private sector.”
“My specific question primarily relates to the retention of highly skilled people. I have put to the Tánaiste previously that much of the debate on this topic has been for an external audience. In truth, for all the big speeches, much of the substance of what is needed to ensure the sustainability of the Defence Forces is absent. The Tánaiste has been talking about fighter jets while we have sent boats to sea in recent months without a functioning main gun because we do not have artificers to operate it. I understand that whole classes have come out of some of the schemes and all but two or three of them have been bought out by major private sector firms.”
“We all share a great deal of concern about the challenges faced by the Defence Forces in recruitment and retention. It is severe right across the organisation but it is felt most keenly in the area of specialist staff such as air traffic controllers, engineers and explosive ordnance disposals officers. This is a major challenge. There is a lot of competition from the private sector. We need to consider this and how we retain some of this crucial staff.”
“How did the Government parties, particularly Fine Gael, get away with the promises they made during the last election campaign regarding the occupied territories Bill, the means test for carers and childcare that were simply cast aside and forgotten about as soon they entered into government?”
“Some families have absolutely nothing left. There are other families where parents, predominantly women, are being kept at home because they cannot find a place or they cannot find a full-time place. We do not have a childcare service in this country. We have a childcare sector. We have fantastic people working in the sector. We have never built a proper childcare service because we have never looked at it, as we should have, as a public good that is in the interests of our people, children and parents and requires proper staffing and support and a national structure. That is why this motion tabled by Deputy Claire Kerrane is so important. We need a public system. We need to be working towards that and we need a roadmap.”
“Families are absolutely broken and struggling with the cost of childcare. Very often, I am not sure people in this place fully understand the pressure the cost of childcare puts on families. That is if families even can get a place. There are some people for whom money is no issue but they simply cannot find a place because of the underinvestment in childcare. For those for whom money is an object, if one is paying a mortgage or rent and on top of that one has two children in full-time childcare or early years education, that could cost another €1,500 or €2,000, if one can get a place. For an awful lot of families, more than two thirds of their income is gone before they even consider food, bills, clothes or anything else. I do not believe those in the political system properly understand the pressure people are under.”
“I emphasise once again that the European Union must play a much stronger role. It was a source of great concern that it took so long to get a meeting to discuss the EU-Israel agreement. The fact is that favourable trade arrangements remain in place. I note the role of the EPP in voting against stopping the flow of arms to Israel. The Government's approach to the triple lock neutrality protection puts our neutrality at risk. The EU should respect Ireland's neutrality. It has always explicitly stated that is the case but it is incumbent on the Government to continue to stand up for Irish neutrality. The current approach to the triple lock neutrality protection will undermine that.”
“If there is any sense that Ireland has done enough, surely in the context of what is happening at this moment in time, that cannot continue. The Government is looking at watering down the occupied territories Bill. That should not happen and the Government should not walk away from it. The Bill must be pursued. We have ten minutes of our time remaining and as I am not sure whether the other speakers will arrive I might continue for another two minutes.”
“The EU's voice during these events has been weakened by its failure to speak for its values throughout this series of barbaric human rights abuses and offences. Israel continues on this route because it has been allowed to act with impunity. Many European states have had very little to say. At times, the Irish Government has made stronger statements than some of its European peers. We have welcomed that when it has happened, but it is time for more to be said. I listened with interest to what the former Minister, Deputy O'Gorman, said in this Chamber a couple of weeks ago. He stated that since the election the Government has perhaps drawn back from previous positions. Now is not the time for that. I cannot read the mind of the Minister of State, Deputy Thomas Byrne or the mind of the Tánaiste. I will not attempt to do so.”
“As we discuss EU policies, it is also important that we reflect upon its current role in the Middle East. What is happening in Gaza is an absolute atrocity. It is catastrophic. We have often heard the Tánaiste and Minister for Foreign Affairs and the Taoiseach, as well as various previous Ministers for Foreign Affairs, talk about a two-state solution. It seems that Israel is trying to permanently undermine the viability of a two-state solution. Food, aid and medicine are blocked from getting into Gaza in the face of human suffering and a humanitarian catastrophe of a kind that we have not witnessed in a long time. This is going on almost two years into this catastrophe, and it continues to escalate. The blockade has continued for some two months.”
“We are also for a European Union that supports its member states, listens to what those states need and understands that most decisions are better taken as close as possible to the communities affected by them. It is important that the European Union focuses on what matters to workers and families: the cost-of-living crisis, improving workers' wages and conditions, regional development, economic development and enabling young people to work, study and travel throughout the Union. There are times when the European Union has played a positive role in Ireland. The approach that was taken by the EU on Brexit was very important. However, at other times the Union has not always helped itself or its reputation. Many people in Ireland still bear the scars of the austerity approach taken by the leadership of the European Union.”