John McGuinness
Carlow-Kilkenny · Fianna Fáil · Ireland
“That concludes our business for this morning. I thank all the Members, the staff, the press and everyone involved in the House for their co-operation during the term. I want to acknowledge the fact that we had Cara Darmody in the Public Gallery this morning. I omitted to mention that. I wish her well in the campaign and in her efforts.”
“For the information of Members, the Poole family are in the Public Gallery. The Ceann Comhairle has already extended a welcome to the family, but I want to bring it to the attention of the Chamber, now that there are so many of us here, that they are here. They have achieved a lot. I acknowledge their presence.”
“Letting time pass to build up evidence for a case is having horrific impacts on women. I do not know when it began to escalate, but it is now the situation that the sexual, physical and financial abuse of women is out of control.”
“I join the Ceann Comhairle in extending the welcome to you. You have come through a harrowing journey to this day and you have exposed the State, as has been recorded by the Taoiseach, the Minister and others, in terms of the most awful failings, which have had terrible consequences on your lives and the lives of your families.”
“There are support services, but we need to fund them more extensively. The refuge centres serve a great purpose, but they need to connect more directly with local councils to ensure that whatever housing is needed is delivered.”
“I commend the Minister on bringing forward this stand-alone legislation. It is important that he continue his work reforming the various aspects of legislation that need to be examined and updated in the context of what society faces today.”
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“On the completion of the next phase of the Kilkenny ring road, I am seeking to establish what stage the process is at, when it is likely to be approved and when the funding will be made available. I made a recommendation to the Minister, because funding is coming directly from the Department's budget, that the €50 million or so needed to cover the project should be set aside in lump sums each year in order that when the planning process is completed, the necessary funding will be in place.”
“We are missing the point here. The customers are central to all of this and their needs must be met in a modern world. The Minister of State talked earlier on about the need to use public transport. We talk about our carbon footprint and so on. This flies in the face of all of that. They are not being given the service in rural Ireland. There is a real problem here in regard to communication and providing the solution to this issue. The only solution is to speak to the customers and put on a service that will provide the same kind of service as Expressway, to do it more efficiently and to ensure that the connectivity to rural Ireland is maintained and enhanced. It is not good enough. I want to repeat that the communication from the NTA was not what I find acceptable and the customers and the public are not being informed.”
“That is a statement of fact, I suppose, in respect of the response given but, in reality, it does not address the real issue of the connection between Waterford and other towns along the route to Dublin and Dublin Airport. There are students who use that route to go to college. There are those who visit the hospitals in Dublin and elsewhere, or those who go to the airport. There are those who are, maybe, socialising and use the bus service. It has been withdrawn. Bus Éireann has shown a total disregard for its customers by the manner in which it withdrew it and by the lack of information it has given. The National Transport Authority has missed the point in relation to the connection through all of those towns from Waterford to Dublin and Dublin Airport.”
“I want to raise the fact that Expressway has pulled out of providing services on route 4. We are faced with a public service obligation route being provided from Waterford to Carlow. I attended a public meeting on the matter in Mullinavat and have attended two further meetings since. I want to reflect the anger of the people who attended those meetings regarding the lack of a response from the National Transport Authority, NTA, and the lack of proper explanation from the very beginning of this debacle.”
“I encourage the Department to have an open day where employers can come and meet those who have a disability or those with an acquired disability to see how they can match those who want work with their companies. There are many organisations that are now funded to prepare young people in particular but anybody who is disabled or intellectually disabled to encourage them back into the workforce and to give them the tools necessary to contribute to that work. The employers do not see enough of that interaction and enough of what is available to them from this whole disability sector. I refer to the Talking Heads organisation in Carlow and Kilkenny and to those with acquired brain injuries and disabilities. Much more needs to be done to give them the opportunity to come back into the workforce. They have something to contribute.”
“Does the Minister believe enough is being done to inform employers of the scheme, its benefits and how it assists both employers and those who have an intellectual disability? Does more need to be done to promote the scheme? I come across a lot of people who have intellectual disabilities or acquired disabilities who would like to return to the workforce to do some work and whose health would benefit from being involved in the workforce and working a meaningful number of hours per week. If more was done to promote and expand the scheme, perhaps working with family resource centres and organisations like Talking Heads in Carlow, more employers would take up the scheme. There are plenty of people in the disability sector who would be willing to engage.”
“On behalf of Deputy Malcolm Byrne, I ask the Minister to give us an update on the workings of the wage subsidy scheme and any other initiatives that are available to employers and those who have intellectual disabilities and need employment. I believe there is scope to improve the wage subsidy scheme, to include others and to encourage employers to participate more fully.”
“I have to interrupt you, Deputy Gannon. The time permitted for the debate having expired, I am required to put the following question in accordance with the order of the Dáil of 16 June: "That Fourth Stage is hereby completed and the Bill is hereby passed."”
“That concludes Taoiseach's Questions. We will now move to Second Stage of the Criminal Justice (International Cooperation on Electronic Evidence and Other Matters) Bill 2026, a Government Bill sponsored by the Minister for justice. The Taoiseach is using his phone.”
“We will move to amendment No. 2. A recommittal is necessary in respect of this amendment and the other related amendments as they do not arise from committee proceedings and relate to the motion to instruct to the committee. Amendments Nos. 2, 33, 35 to 45, inclusive, and 72 are related and will be discussed together.”
“There are horses in Ireland, horses being exported, sport abroad and sport in Ireland. There is a massive amount of money that could benefit the economy if we were to exploit all of that area. I agree with Deputies Lawlor and Gibney on what they said about festivals. We need to fund them in a strategic way. We need to give lot more funding through local authorities to ensure they can direct the funding to support the strategies they have for developing tourism. I urge that it would be considered seriously because the funding is very scattered and piecemeal. While there are big allocations, it is the smaller community efforts that should take pride of place and therefore the county should have a greater role in it.”
“The Ministers for tourism and higher education should develop that type of offering with the South East Technological University, which will attract real money and real tourism. We need to build on the strengths that we have in the county, for example, in Graiguenamanagh, and highlight the historic areas and locations where business was conducted many years ago in a very different way, for example, Duiske Glass and Cushendale Mills. That would encourage people to know the brand and be able to identify it and buy it abroad. There is a coal mining trail. I would link it to Castlecomer, County Kilkenny, which has historically been a big coal mining district. These are the things we should be looking at as well as what is happening currently in the equine industry.”
“I want to make a pitch for my own constituency of Carlow-Kilkenny. We cannot be complacent about our success or rest on our laurels. We have to continue to be innovative and to develop our tourism product. In this regard, we need to look at the strengths of each county and not just make every county, city and village the same. We must look at what they have to offer and have strategic investment in what each county is doing or wants to do. It is not driven from the top; it is driven by the community and those who are involved in the tourism industry. There should be a Norman museum and study centre in Kilkenny. It is the heart of our Norman history. It can attract tourists right across Europe who are engaging in Norman history and education.”
“However, factoring all of that into how the State is managed, we see the same results: poor value for money and not enough attention being given to developing the Civil Service to a point where it is at the top of its game in relation to all of this. I ask the Minister of State to reflect on what has been said and to factor in the fact that it has been said more than once. He has heard all of this from me more than once. I ask him to do something about it within Government and within our own party because, as far as I can see, no one is listening.”
“We need to empower our own Committee of Public Accounts and Comptroller and Auditor General to ensure we get real value for money. It is not happening. I am beginning to receive huge complaints from people who are now more in tune with what is going on, or not going on, in Government. They see this waste and are appalled by it. It is a national disgrace that this is allowed to continue but successive governments have failed to introduce any real radical reform, or structural reform, to address these issues. Can the Minister of State imagine how much money we would have at budget time if we had a more efficient and accountable system, one that did not lose as much as the current system does? I know that it is a risk. I know decisions are risky.”
“We need reform to ensure that where we do not get value for money, where there are inefficiencies in the system and where public money is obviously being wasted, following scrutiny and due process, action is taken with regard to those who were central to the loss of funds to the Government or to the inefficiencies I have outlined. I remember going to a state in Africa as Chairman of the public accounts committee to look for €4 million that had to be accounted for. When we visited the schools supported by money from the Irish Government, the children and the teachers were counting the pencils and the jotters, as they called them, to account for the money they spent, but the comptroller and auditor general in that country was driving a very big Mercedes and was subject to very little obvious accountability. We need to examine all of that.”
“One of the areas I am concerned about is the work of Comptroller and Auditor General and the costs that are spiralling for the children's hospital and in almost every project you can think of, without being challenged in a robust way by any of the committees of this House. It is not that they do not want to do it. I am sure they would like to do it but, unfortunately, we are told their hands are tied, although that is not the case. We in this House have a job to do. We must work to ensure that every Secretary General and civil servant is made accountable to this House.”
“However, when the costs are added together and you move from the home to the SME sector you are destroying the local economy that keeps the shops open in villages and towns all over the country and in the high streets of Ireland. There is not enough said about these costs in this House. There is not enough action taken outside of this debate to ensure the businesses that are threatened and being challenged by current costs are kept open. We are not doing enough for them. We speak enough about them and praise them enough, yet when it comes to action I am afraid we fall far short of what is required.”
“Planning charges have gone up and the small to medium size businesses are being crucified once again. This is the sector we say employs up to 1 million people. These are the homegrown people who base their business on a family input and are the people we rely on. We seem to have abandoned that whole sector and walked away from it. The cost of fuel at the pumps needs to be addressed. The cost of home heating oil has to be addressed. The USC and tax bands need to be addressed. The USC was supposed to be temporary. I remember the late Brian Lenihan telling us all of that in this House. That is not the case. We need to reform the tax bands for workers to ensure they take home more to meet the various costs they are challenged by in their own homes.”
“While the diesel rebate scheme and others put in place on the agri side are welcome, we cannot forget the people we represent. I refer particularly to pensioners and those on low pay who are feeling the squeeze because of the cost-of-living crisis. We have to ensure there is some benefit for those people in whatever action we take. I think all who have spoken in this debate have mentioned that we know someone who cannot buy home heating oil. We know people who have cut back on their grocery bills. They cannot afford some of the prices being charged in supermarkets and shops. There is a need to examine the costs in all of these supermarkets and at the petrol pump to ensure there is not price gouging going on. Insurance costs have gone up. Commercial rates have gone up.”
“Yes. I congratulate the Deputy on his success. I join in some of the comments made about the carbon tax and I ask the Minister of State if he thinks we are getting value for money from it. Does he think it should be tailored to ensure there are not the types of increases faced through the carbon tax, and to divvy up the money raised from a lower amount of taxation? One of the issues that has come to the fore from the fuel protest and so on, is that enormous taxes are being taken from fuel throughout the country by the Government. It has reached the point of being absolutely unacceptable. I agree with the suggestion that relief should be given at the pumps. Everyone would have benefitted from that, and it would be an easy scheme to administer. The individuals who go to work and are hard-pressed would benefit from it.”
“The other interesting thing about schools is the renting of prefabs. This has cost Church Hill National School €480,000 to date. As such, there is a really urgent case for investment in all of those schools.”
“There are capacity issues in some of the schools I have mentioned, like Church Hill National School in Cuffesgrange and Scoil Mhuire in Mooncoin. Then there is the issue of Castlecomer's school, which has 634 students. That project is shovel-ready and the school wants to get on with that work. There has been such a long wait for the Kilkenny school campus. Planning permission is there. Some €3.5 million has already been spent on the groundworks and the planning permission will expire. I keep on emphasising that and will continue to because the school needs to know where it is going before the end of July. It cannot be left until next year for the school to be given some sort of indication, because that will force it back into the planning process. The school will also lose time and see site costs increase.”
“I hope the Minister will engage directly with those schools I have mentioned to ensure they are moved to their next phase, and to keep focus on the Kilkenny school campus.”
“It is extremely important that this project moves forward because it has a huge impact on the schools and their development. The lease expires in 2028, and the planning permission is due to expire in 2027. The Minister is right to say investment has been good in Carlow and Kilkenny but there is always a focus on the ones we are waiting for. The Minister met with the community school in Castlecomer when she was there. I also drew her attention to Church Hill National School and Scoil Mhuire in Mooncoin. Given the numbers and because they are ready to go and are trying to accommodate special needs and so on, it is important that these schools be given a clear indication through the course of this year as to their standing and the possibility for funding.”
“I ask about schools in Kilkenny that are on the list waiting to be approved to move forward. I want to raise serious concerns in the school community regarding the Kilkenny City Vocational School, which is a DEIS school. Alongside that there is Coláiste Pobal Osraí. These will form the Kilkenny school campus. We spent €3.5 million on the grounds work. The planning permission expires in 2027 and the lease in 2028. The Minister visited recently, and I would like to hear that this will make progress.”
“I understand the Government Whip intends to move a proposal in relation to arrangements for the motion regarding the report of the Committee on Standing Orders and Dáil Reform in respect of Dáil sittings from 9 to 11 June.”
“If they were here, they would probably say the development of everyone in the Civil Service sector needs as much attention to ensure they keep pace with the policies we are putting forward. Much of the expenditure we approve in the House is poorly spent. There are often big issues with it but it is a large amount of money. It is time now that we modernise the Civil Service, equip the staff for what we want them to do with the policies we are outlining and encourage them to reform Government Departments in a meaningful way so they are at pace with political decisions and the changing world we now live in. Will the Minister of State address that in the context of education?”
“I agree with Deputy Newsome Drennan about the transparency that is needed around the Carlow College decision and the 600 students and staff. We need clarity as soon as possible and I ask the Minister to give that issue his attention. I welcome the fact that we have a South East Technological University. I want to see the campuses developed properly and fully, and funded. I refer particularly to Kildalton College and the veterinary courses there. We need to see a future where more students are attracted into that area and the funding is clearly available for the expansion of those courses. Likewise, millions of euro have now been invested in the further education college of the future in Kilkenny and I would like to see it expand and develop again. Earlier in the debate, Lemass and Whitaker were mentioned.”
“I am giving the Minister of State the example of the tracker mortgage issue to show him how wrong the Central Bank or officials can be - 5,000 versus 50,000. My God, you could not make it up.”
“Had it not been for the members of the finance committee pushing and probing on behalf of individual cases, we would not know the extent of that problem. It is a mark on this State that this is the way citizens were treated. It is a mark on the European Union and the European Central Bank that they would have allowed that to happen. Here we are now doing exactly the same thing, short-changing the people we represent, people who have come to us in good faith, asking for support and help. It is not right that they would be ignored. If they are ignored in the context of this Bill and how it is being pushed through the House, then it is a sorry day for Ireland and for the people concerned. I do not raise this lightly or say these things lightly. I say it out of experience on that committee, dealing directly with the people concerned.”
“It is leading a culture that is a legacy of a different time altogether in Ireland. People are still paying that price. Only this morning I met with families dealing with the vulture funds and whose loans have been transferred. You cannot get information. You cannot get a reasonable person to discuss the issue with you. Everyone is hiding behind GDPR and people are afraid to ask questions. The questions that have been asked should be answered. They will throw light on how other people were treated. We saw this in relation to the tracker mortgage issue. First there were hundreds. The then Governor of the Central Bank, who is now in the European Central Bank, said there were around 5,000 but it was over 50,000.”
“Enough of those queries were raised to give concern to the Government and that concern is not being reflected here. At least one of those families I know of is not being treated properly. That is not the way it should be. The vulture funds and so on entered this country, bought properties and treated people badly and we just took it as being the way it was after the crash. Their behaviour here has been utterly despicable and it continues to this day because of the manner in which those staff were trained. Some of those staff have now moved to mainstream banking with the same culture and attitude they experienced when they were with the vulture funds, dealing with NAMA, closing down operations, closing down families and so on. We do not seem to be concerned about that.”
“Will the Minister of State make contact with the officials concerned? Will he invite in the Butlers to hear what they have said, or will he read the transcripts from the finance committee meeting? Will he deal with the questions that were raised and the commitments that were given by the officials to the committee members at that time? If he does not do that, the whole process is just meaningless and lacks any form of democracy or compassion as far as I am concerned. That family and others were invited to give their story to the finance committee because it was felt it was that important. During the crash, I saw many things happening to families that were questionable. Many of those queries were raised in various committees of this House.”
“If their allegations stand up, and there is lots of paperwork around it, that would bring up further questions on other transactions within NAMA that are questionable. The House has been short-changed here in terms of the legislation being rushed through as have the people who have raised queries not being engaged with. Certainly the committee members who showed an interest in the Butler case do not know the outcome. The Minister should at least fulfil the promise of the officials and ensure the details of that meeting as given to the officials are examined. That is the least we should do in the context of this legislation. If that does not happen and we plough ahead with this, we are simply adding further injustice to an injustice to this family. Farms were lost. Investments were lost. The proof is there to be seen.”
“I really thought they would meet with the Butlers and deal with each of the specific accusations or allegations being made, and that each of those allegations would be answered comprehensively. That did not happen. Now we are at a point where the Bill has gone through pre-legislative scrutiny and the specific cases that were of concern, particularly that family from Tipperary, have not been dealt with. This legislation is simply going to be railroaded through this House. Those who have been individually affected by the decisions of NAMA are not going to have the opportunity to be heard. Those who have been heard through the finance committee are not going to be given the opportunity to have all of their questions answered.”
“They were also shocked that an agency of the State would not present the facts or deal with the facts that the Butlers were presenting at that time. It was decided that the committee would be briefed from the liquidators' side and that the case would be answered in the context of the facts versus what NAMA or the liquidator had to say. That never happened. In fact, they were to arrange a meeting between some committee members and NAMA relative to how all of this was being exposed publicly, how the facts were being dealt with, if there were facts, and what the case from the other side, which was NAMA, was. That never happened, even though it was promised to an Oireachtas committee representing these Houses. That was before the election.”
“It was pointed out to them that they would have to come back to the committee to give details on a case the committee was dealing with, which involved the Butler family. Again, it is in the public domain. I am not breaching anyone's confidence here. They raised many questions not only about their treatment as a family but also about the treatment of their investment going right back to the original loan from the bank. It caused the committee to ask all of these questions and to let the committee hear from the Butler family directly, which we did at that time. I was Chairman of the committee. I would say that most of the members who took on board what was being said were absolutely shocked that the circumstances of their case were not examined.”
“In the case of another individual, a young child in a family who was ill was approached by those who called to the home. It was unacceptable practice. Nothing has ever come out from that organisation to apologise publicly for what went on. Nor has there been any acknowledgement of the wrongdoing of that agency in terms of how it approached its work. Likewise, at the time when some of the bigger property portfolios, particularly in Northern Ireland, were being discussed, very little help and information were given to the committees of this House to enable them to pursue matters in the interests of the citizens of this country. Particular cases were mentioned. What concerns me about this legislation is the fact that when the officials of the Department came before the finance committee, they were outlining their approach to the legislation.”
“During the time when NAMA was dealing with the various property portfolios and issues arising from the work-out of those properties, many questions were asked, many queries were put before NAMA, and many people who had been in business and who found themselves in difficulty after the crash were treated very badly. That is a fact. That is held up by the number of people who appeared before the finance committee and, indeed, by the work of the Committee of Public Accounts. All of those people are being ignored. I am deeply concerned by the way that they were treated and I raised it continuously during the course of that time. I will give one example. This information is in the public domain. Annette De Vere Hunt was one such person.”
“Duiske College located in Kilkenny has DEIS status. It was ranked third in terms of progression to university throughout the country in a national poll. The school site is made up of prefabs. They are dated and full of mould. There are holes in the floor and electrical issues of all kinds. Recently it been refused a second ASD class, even though there is a waiting list at the school. I tabled a parliamentary question recently and to say that I got a partial answer does not even describe it. I ask the Taoiseach to intervene to make sure that the second ASD class for Duiske College is delivered, that the prefabs are examined and updated without delay, and possibly that they be given a new site close to that school. It is not acceptable.”
“Before we finish, as Leas-Cheann Comhairle, I often have the task of going through parliamentary questions and refusing them, or asking that they be referred to the appropriate agency. I want to follow up on the complaints I have received, and a letter from Deputy Carol Nolan, to inform the Tánaiste again that the replies are inadequate, and there is little or no response from the agencies. As Leas-Cheann Comhairle, dealing with these parliamentary questions and having to sign-off on some refusals or lack of information, I believe the Tánaiste is correct in saying they are responsible to the House and I agree with the approach he is taking.”
“My concern around the issue we are debating now is the rights and supports that are necessary for local communities when they make their objections and when they are pitched against big companies that can steamroll their way through the planning process and onwards. The reason they take judicial reviews is because they feel that they are failed by the process itself and that they are being ignored by the political process. We have been promised, for example, onshore wind regulations in this House since 2006. We have had numerous debates about the regulations. Politicians have done somersaults in relation to it.”
“It has to go through a long, convoluted process to get to the point where an acknowledgement is given of the dangers that exist and then the work is required thereafter. If the Minister of State could shorten the process and give due consideration to local people and their complaints, it would help greatly in our work to assist the Minister of State to ensure that there is greater safety on our roads.”
“It is a very busy junction, but in spite of all of that, they refer to figures and analysis that simply do not give any indication of what is really happening on the ground and the real fears that people - residents and road users - in the area have. Likewise, it is the same thing in relation to the R704, the Mullinavat road to New Ross. The local residents have complained over a long period about the 2.4 km of road that is dangerous and requires signage, work and prevention in terms of the speed that vehicles are travelling. Sean Maher, a local activist, wrote to me about this - not to just complain, but to suggest ways by which this could be dealt with. Again, the local authority has been lobbied for immediate action. That has not happened.”
“These signs are hugely important and contribute to the type of driver behaviour that we want to achieve, which is to act within the limits, drive responsibly and acknowledge the law. Glenmore is a particularly busy road. Work is to be done on that road. The signage, which the Minister of State might come back to me on, is essential. When the former Deputy Shane Ross was a Minister, he came to visit Kilkenny. He looked at the road from Kilkenny city - the Waterford Road - out to the roundabout, particularly at Danesfort. I have lobbied the council, TII and the current Minister to take action on that stretch of road, which has seen a number of fatalities. Danesfort GAA Club is hugely actively there and a real anchor in the community.”
“People who live along stretches of road where they experience the speed and the dangers of speed, and sometimes the accidents that occur out of that, would like to see something done. They cannot understand why there is such an inordinate delay in dealing with all of this. Static cameras were mentioned by Deputy Lawlor in relation to Glenmore and the N24. It is a fact that the cameras work, but signage is necessary as you come into that stretch of road. I ask that there be some crossover with the councils or TII to ensure that there is sufficient notification on the road to indicate the speed, request a reduction in that speed and say that the cameras are there. The same could be said for the road into Dublin from Kilkenny.”
“I want to immediately draw the Minister of State's attention to some of the issues that are faced in my constituency of Carlow-Kilkenny. I feel that is the most effective way of contributing to this debate. Earlier, I had the privilege of welcoming a group from Tullaroan with Councillor Michael Delaney. Councillor Delaney and that group discussed in great detail the matter that we are now discussing. They brought to my attention a number of concerns that they had. They wondered, and rightly so, if the technology was there to identify the registration plate on a vehicle, why could it not be used to cross over and check the insurance, tax and so forth. Where stands that in relation to legislation or implementation?”
“I welcome the Minister of State, Deputy Seán Canney, to the Chamber. Before we proceed with the statements, I welcome those in the Public Gallery who are looking down at us today. I particularly welcome Councillor Mick Delaney from Tullaroan. Joining him are active retirement groups from Kilkenny and Laois. You are all very welcome. I hope you enjoy your day with Councillor Delaney here at Leinster House. The group members had a lot of questions for me on the statements we are about to make. I was questioned sensibly on it and the need to have the cameras spread all over the country. They have a point of view as well, which they got across. I now call on the Minister of State to make his opening statement.”
“If the management were any way right, or any good at all, the strikers would not be out there today. That matter would have been dealt with long before it happened. If the Government was in private business, it would look across the range of employees it has and make it super attractive to keep them there, particularly when there is a shortage of skilled staff. That is what is done but it does not seem to be done by Government or the HSE. That needs to be talked about and corrected.”