John McGuinness
Carlow-Kilkenny · Fianna Fáil · Ireland
“That concludes our business for this morning. I thank all the Members, the staff, the press and everyone involved in the House for their co-operation during the term. I want to acknowledge the fact that we had Cara Darmody in the Public Gallery this morning. I omitted to mention that. I wish her well in the campaign and in her efforts.”
“For the information of Members, the Poole family are in the Public Gallery. The Ceann Comhairle has already extended a welcome to the family, but I want to bring it to the attention of the Chamber, now that there are so many of us here, that they are here. They have achieved a lot. I acknowledge their presence.”
“Letting time pass to build up evidence for a case is having horrific impacts on women. I do not know when it began to escalate, but it is now the situation that the sexual, physical and financial abuse of women is out of control.”
“I join the Ceann Comhairle in extending the welcome to you. You have come through a harrowing journey to this day and you have exposed the State, as has been recorded by the Taoiseach, the Minister and others, in terms of the most awful failings, which have had terrible consequences on your lives and the lives of your families.”
“There are support services, but we need to fund them more extensively. The refuge centres serve a great purpose, but they need to connect more directly with local councils to ensure that whatever housing is needed is delivered.”
“I commend the Minister on bringing forward this stand-alone legislation. It is important that he continue his work reforming the various aspects of legislation that need to be examined and updated in the context of what society faces today.”
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“The plans need to be fast tracked for the areas that are deeply affected by flooding. History will tell us about Graiguenamanagh and Tinnahinch which have been flooded consistently. Efforts were made by the county council and the Department to get a scheme to the point of construction, with money being allocated as far back as 2018 but we still have no sign of the relief scheme being put in place. I am sure the Minister of State will look at the systems that are there to deliver these schemes. Perhaps he will use his good offices to ensure that when county councils put forward proposals for these schemes they ensure there is no delay in the context of accepting the money from Government and implementing the schemes as quickly as they possibly can. Kilkenny is no stranger to flood relief schemes.”
“It is sad to see a beautiful village like that being flooded on a regular basis, houses being destroyed and people being disrupted. I have seen new houses that were constructed there that were damaged by flooding. I know that the relief scheme is in tranche two but I would like to see that delivered as soon as possible. Anyone who has experienced a flood knows that it is extremely difficult to get one's house back into order and there is always an issue with insurance. Likewise, in relation to the village of Inistioge, I have seen the flood waters there rise to the level of the crossbars of goalposts. There has been really serious flooding, with lots of properties on the square being absolutely destroyed on a regular basis. Thomastown and Piltown experience flooding also.”
“In a lot of cases, the planning process holds up the real delivery of the results that are being asked for by the people we represent, the communities that have had serious difficulties with floods down through the years. The Minister of State is very welcome to come to Carlow and Kilkenny. I extended that invitation to him previously when he was before the finance committee. I would like to see him looking at the various areas that are affected so that he gets a sense of the extent of the work that is needed to relieve some of the issues that I will highlight now. Freshford is a small village on the outskirts of the city. It is a village that I spent a lot of time in being looked after and reared by relations.”
“I want to congratulate the Minister of State on his appointment and to wish him well in his role. I have had dealings with him in the past when I served as Chairman of the Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach. He presented his Estimates and every time he came in I reminded him of Carlow, Kilkenny and the schemes that were waiting to be planned and completed and encouraged him to spend the money that was there as quickly as possible. I also encouraged him to engage with county councils to ensure that there was efficiency in the system that would make it work because these schemes are vital to local communities. The time is now to look at the planning process for all of these schemes.”
“It is pointless me having to try to shout down Deputies on the Government side, then shout down the Opposition and try to get the business done. If Deputies respect each other and the time they have, we will get on just fine and everyone will be able to make their points adequately.”
“Right across the insurance sector, premiums have increased significantly and there is an upward trend in every piece in every area, such as motor insurance and house insurance. SMEs across the country are faced with significant challenges in getting insurance. Flood insurance is impossible to get. Young people trying to get mortgage protection who may have had glitches with their health issues in the past cannot get cover. I want to know what the Government is doing to address the issue and bring some form of stability to that market because it is having a negative effect on the economy.”
“When you go to visit him this evening, you will have something very substantial to report. I have no doubt Lucia that he would like to see you and Jim and the girls catch up on the years that you have lost since 2011, live out your life and live it out in memory of Shane. You have left an everlasting impression on all of us in this House who were willing to listen and to act. Thank you.”
“No longer should whistleblowers, or anyone else who has a story to tell such as Lucia O'Farrell and her family's, be shunned. We should listen to them and give them the space they require to tell their story. That is what we are here for, to be prepared to act, to be prepared to change the system, to be prepared to change the party system and the status quo , and whatever else holds the wrongdoing together and away from scrutiny. Enough is enough. Lucia and Jim, I hope that after today you take the time to understand what you have achieved, take the time to understand that you have brought justice for Shane and that you had someone like the Minister understanding the law who could present us with this apology today. Shane would like you to live your life.”
“As I listened to him today reading out all of the wrongs that were meted out to the investigation around Shane, I could not help but think that since 2011 to this date it was all denied. It was a vote against an inquiry. It was a weakness in the political system and a desire to protect the status quo . It was a desire to turn our back on the reform that was needed. We saw it played out here from one side of the House to the other and I regret that. I regret that we have not within us the drive to ensure that the reform so needed right across the State is put in place. Lucia and Jim O'Farrell and their children have brought all of this before us again today to remind us of the amount of work we still have to do and the amount of reform that still has to be put in place.”
“I will not ignore either the bravery of our Minister who I am sure, in spite of what he was told and in spite of the obstacles that were put in his way, came forward and gave this apology. It was a little piece of leadership quality that others should take note of. It is that type of bravery we need from the ordinary Members of this House to ensure that justice is done and is served. Today is a day for the O'Farrell family, to allow this apology given by the Minister to seep in and to understand it, and to understand Lucia what you have achieved. It is clear that in a mother's love for her son, an Irish mammy is certainly a formidable force in Ireland and a formidable force that should be listened to, but unfortunately you were not listened to. I ask you to consider what has been said by the Minister.”
“In here we have to question ourselves as to why we are here. We should not be here and be blindly led by party Whips or by commitment to party. We should be led by our commitment to the citizens we represent. We should be led by our commitment to justice. We should not stand back in the face of those who would like no light to be shone in the dark corners, who would like no one to be penalised or sanctioned, and who would not want the truth to come out. That day is gone. We as parliamentarians must constantly remind ourselves that we are here with an obligation to keep our people safe. With Shane O'Farrell we did not keep him safe. We put him in harm's way. The Judiciary, the DPP, and An Garda have an awful lot to answer for. I cannot ignore that.”
“She asked me regularly in conversations, "How will I face Shane eventually if I do not get justice for Shane?" Lucia O'Farrell, you can face him whenever that day comes because you certainly have brought justice for him and you have certainly exposed the State for what it is. Every step of the way obstacles were put in your way but you did not stand back and you kept going. A greater commitment to keeping our citizens safe and our State honest is part of the legacy of Shane O'Farrell. This is what you have achieved. The corrections the Minister for Justice outlined here that are needed to make the State and the apparatus of the State function will go some way to assisting those who may have the experience like you have had, or other events in their lives, to get justice far quicker.”
“It was Lucia O'Farrell who meticulously went through every single event from 2011 onwards and put all of that information down on paper to inform every one of us and to tell us to do our job - enough empathy, enough advice and enough assurances from politicians and officials: do your job as parliamentarians. That is what she was asking, and to recognise what was wrong for her son and for many others who are confronted by a State that, as this obviously shows, could not care less. Lucia O'Farrell is made of stern stuff. She had a backbone and she knew what she wanted to achieve. She had a love for her son that was unmatched and this drove her on.”
“Lucia O'Farrell and her family have been in and out of the offices of TDs and Senators in this House to fight for justice for Shane since 2011. I am thrilled that we are here today to witness this apology from the State and to hear the Minister recount all the failings of the State during the investigation. Today we could say it is vindication but we have to remember that all through those years it was not easy for Lucia O'Farrell and her family. It was not easy to come before each one of us here in the House to try to convince us that something was wrong. We have heard those stories before. Lucia O'Farrell painted a picture of a State and a system that was rotten, a State and a system that brought no justice to her son and that gave him no chance whatsoever. It was not the Government or the system that uncovered all of the wrongdoing.”
“The searing pain of Shane's tragic death can never be erased but it is my sincere hope that today's apology will bring a small measure of solace to them in their grief and loss. I call the Taoiseach.”
“Before calling on the Minister for Justice, on behalf of all Members of Dáil Éireann, I wish to acknowledge the presence in the Distinguished Visitors Gallery of Shane O'Farrell's family - his mother, Lucia, his father, Jim, and his sisters Pia, Hannah, Gemma and Aimee. They are very welcome. Some 14 years ago, they lost their beloved son and brother, Shane, who was just 23 years of age. He was a young man entering the prime of his life. Shane was killed by a hit-and-run driver who should have been in jail at the time. Since Shane's death, the family have relentlessly pursued truth and justice for him. It has not been an easy journey and there have been many setbacks along the way, but they have remained steadfast. I salute their courage, dignity and resilience over the past 14 years.”
“This has gone on for years and it has not been resolved to the satisfaction of the parents whose children attend those schools. The last issue I will refer to is the fact that parents who have a child with autism or ADHD cannot get a place in the system. They are as important as any other student in the system. There are kids in Kilkenny who cannot get a place. Their parents are out hunting for a place. I ask that the Minister and the Minister of State would address this issue. It is not good enough. We had it on Tuesday when discussing the assessment situation. It is time to address the issue and have officials on the ground proactively working with the families.”
“John of God National School in Windgap applied in late December 2023 for repairs to the roof. It is still waiting for approval to carry out those works. These are issues that need to be dealt with. The Minister of State, Deputy Moynihan, arranged for the school bus operator to come in. I have always said, and I am going to say it again, that it is time we put this contract out to tender. It has told us it is now €90 million in deficit. I would like to know what is happening in that company. Why, within EU procurement rules, is the Department not being forced to go out to tender on that service? Students are being left at bus stops and at their schools. There are issues around the provision of a transport system from Gowran, Mullinavat, Ballyhale and Kilmacow.”
“This again goes back to the title of this debate today, which is for a world-class education system. We have to give our students the very best. St. John's senior and junior national schools in Kilkenny will amalgamate. This will cause a lot of difficulties because it is two different sites and a new school will have to be constructed. I want to see the principal position being retained in the junior school. The principal is retiring and a recruitment process is in place but there is an absolute need to have a principal in the senior school, which is a distance away from what is known as "the lake school". I would like the principal to be sanctioned in that lake school and be appointed. Then let us get to the various phases of the amalgamation, including the physical amalgamation in one building. The St.”
“I want to know why that is not going ahead now. I want to ask about a teaching post in Ballyragget National School Roll No. 20506U. It went through the system. The fact that it was denied a teacher will result in it having at least 30-plus pupils in a classroom, causing serious accommodation issues. Yet, because it did not fit into the pigeon hole it did not get through the appeals system and it will now be denied that extra teacher. I turn to the Presentation Secondary School, which is a magnificent building that was constructed alongside the original school, which is now almost complete. I want to see an AstroTurf pitch provided for it because it gave up its sporting facility. It would be wrong to allow the construction to be completed without that provision.”
“First let me recognise all of the good work that has been undertaken by the Department of education and various Ministers, and the huge changes that have taken place in the delivery of school projects and school courses, in accommodating students, and the developments in the third level sector. Today we are talking about a word-class education system. I will focus on a few things that are relevant to my constituency but they feed into the title of this debate. The Jonah Special School, Roll No. 20380B in Slieverue, which caters for students with autism and ADHD, was promised a new building. It was told it was getting it and that the money was allocated and yet it is still in the same building waiting for delivery of a state-of-the-art school. It is accommodating the most vulnerable students in our society.”
“On foot of yesterday's order of the Dáil, I wish to announce for the information of the House that the following Members have been appointed to serve on the Committee on Parliamentary Privileges and Oversight: Deputies Mary Butler, Paula Butterly, Joanna Byrne, John Clendennen, Ruth Coppinger, Jen Cummins, Emer Currie, Frank Feighan, Pádraig Mac Lochlainn, Paul McAuliffe, Mattie McGrath, John McGuinness, Denise Mitchell, Ged Nash, Ken O'Flynn, Naoise Ó Cearúil, Aengus Ó Snodaigh, Pádraig O'Sullivan and Barry Ward.”
“The Minister should really bring in the senior managers in the HSE to determine how they are going to deal with it, how they are going to spend the extra money the Minister says will be available to them, how they are going to focus on all the appointments that are needed, and how they are going to fix a really broken system. That is the question. The parents are looking for answers today because they are affected every single day. When this debate is over, we will probably talk about something else. That probably should not be allowed to happen either.”
“The recent changes in the HSE have seen professionals within the system instructing parents as to how they should deal with their child, or how they should cope with the child. Assessments are needed to deal with the issue. The local authority will always ask for an assessment if the family wants to get a particular type of accommodation. All of that has to be fast-tracked and dealt with. The waiting times are extraordinary. I do not know how much money or time it is going to take to resolve it. The problems for these families are here and now.”
“We should start the debate by acknowledging our failure and acknowledging that in spite of the money being put into the system, the services are not being delivered. We have to ask why that is the case. Where is the system failing? I think we will find it is failing in terms of management, which should see the problem and recruit to deal with it. We have a complete collapse of that system and it is extremely unfair and damaging to the young children who are affected by this. We need a rapid response, lots of money and lots of personnel within the HSE who are qualified. We need to be searching abroad to bring them home if that is necessary. We certainly need to do a lot more to reduce the lists and employ OTs, speech and language therapists, psychologists and physiotherapists. We need to engage with the parents.”
“It is shocking that they actually ignored it for years. I would point to 2010 and 2011 as the years when the numbers began to increase rapidly in terms of those who could not access services for their children who may have had autism, whether an assessment or therapies. The numbers grew from that time. We do not need a consultant's report to look at what went on. All we need do is look at the parliamentary questions that were being asked during that period and right up to today regarding those who cannot get assessments or the professional supports they need so urgently. Oral questions here in the House over that period show us the same trend. The Governments from 2011 up to now have absolutely failed.”
“No one wants to see Cara Darmody outside of this House. I join with Deputy Alan Kelly when he said that the last thing we would expect in a democracy like ours, with an economy that is doing well, is a 14-year-old outside Leinster House campaigning not just for her own family members but to highlight what is going on right around the country. It is not right. The Minister or some senior official should be outside talking to her, to bring about a resolution not just to her family's problem but to the overall issues. I believe in the goodwill of the Minister. I know everyone in this House wants to do the right thing by those who are disabled, marginalised or in this system looking for an assessment of need for their child who may have autism or other issues. Do not tell me the management of the HSE did not see this coming.”
“I understand the Minister is sharing her time. Deputy McGuinness spoke to me just before I came in and he is not available. I see he is listed to share the Minister's time. He is speaking later on though.”
“That concludes Taoiseach's Questions. I think we will make a recommendation to the Business Committee to meet early on Tuesday mornings for all those who want to pool the weekend results and compliment their local teams. It might save a bit of time during the debates.”
“Before the Minister answers, for the benefit of the Deputy, when he is asked to conclude it is not a shouting match between both of us or an urgency for him to complete his question. It is to facilitate the Minister to answer. I am flexible in what we do but the Deputy went well over time.”
“I must now deal with a deferred division relating to Second Stage of the Trade Union Recognition Bill 2021 taken today. On the question, "That the Bill be now read a Second Time", a division was claimed and in accordance with Standing Order 85(2) that division must be taken now.”
“I must now deal with a postponed division relating to the motion regarding housing and critical infrastructure. On Tuesday, 13 May, on the question, "That the amendment to the motion be agreed to", a division was claimed and in accordance with Standing Order 85(2), that division must be taken now.”
“I must now deal with a postponed division relating to the motion regarding parental choice in education. On Thursday, 8 May, on the question, "That the amendment to the motion be agreed to", a division was claimed and in accordance with Standing Order 85(2), that division must be taken now.”
“Before we suspend, can I mention something on behalf of a number of Members? The Tánaiste might mention to his Government colleagues that when further information is promised during Questions on Promised Legislation or parliamentary questions, or indeed from agencies, they should respond in a reasonable time or give Members a timeframe. Members have asked me to mention that and the quality of the answers to some parliamentary questions.”
“Deputy McCormack, just for clarification, no one is acting as judge and jury, certainly from the Chair anyway. I would like him to know that. I am obliged to call the Deputies from the list I have. It is just to note that. I call Deputy Colm Burke.”
“I thank the Tánaiste. On behalf of Deputy John Clendennen, I welcome a group in the Public Gallery from St. Brendan's Community School in Birr in County Offaly who recently won the European debating championships. They are here today with their teachers. I hope they have learned a lot from the debate here and I wish them well.”
“Before I call on Deputy Malcolm Byrne to speak on Question No. 101, on behalf of Deputy Keira Keogh I welcome the students from Sancta Maria College in County Mayo and their teachers Mr. Connaughton and Ms Keane. They are very welcome to Dáil Eireann and we hope they enjoy their day.”
“It has created a huge gap between the bureaucracy of Europe and, in our case, the Irish people. I would like to see more said by members of the European Parliament. I want to add my voice to all of those who have spoken about Gaza and what needs to be done. Not enough is being said regarding the leadership of the European Union and what we feel about what is happening. It is genocide or war crime; whatever it is, people are dying and kids are dying.”
“It does not make any sense, yet I have not heard anyone in Europe say on Ireland and what we are doing here that there is a need to protect the industry and recognise that most people applying for those grants are not wealthy. They are older people trying to make the best they can of a grant and of a failed heating system they might have in their home. On the bigger picture, I fear Mercosur and the deal that is being talked about. Some 100,000 tonnes of beef into Europe will scare any farmer and will cause difficulties for those planning to farm beef or whatever because of the uncertainty. We need certainty around that. On CETA I would like to see more said in terms of the courts. It needs to be explained to the Irish people. That is the big thing for me. Europe has moved away from the people.”
“There is no harm in our saying we will go so far on one particular part of the project but no further. I do not want to see us arming up and getting ready to play a role in a European army. I do not want to see that. On the agricultural side, there is a lot more Europe could do on farming, funding the initiatives it currently has, and in making sure CAP is not only funded but that it is possible to implement it without the amount of bureaucracy and red tape that I see farmers having to engage with every single day. I do not want to nitpick but I would give the example of the latest directive from the European Union, relating to local authority grants, whereby you cannot now get a grant to change a boiler but you must go for a bigger option of a full kit-out for the home.”
“I do not mind saying I support the European project and have done so since the beginning, but I also do not mind saying we should, whenever necessary, be critical of the direction Europe might be taking on any aspect of the role it plays. I also believe we should never forget our own sovereignty and our own people and, if we are not happy about the direction Europe is taking, we should not be afraid to put forward views and opinions in an effort to change that direction. On the militarisation of Europe and the talk about peace versus those who want to bring up the arms race, purchase arms and so on, Europe and Ireland have a lot to offer in respect of a peace project. We have always been the ones who were recognised as playing a huge role in relation to peace and we should continue to do so.”
“Before we move to Deputy O'Donoghue, I want to acknowledge the family members of Deputy Brian Brennan from the Wicklow-Wexford constituency, who are here in the Public Gallery on this special day for his mother, Ann, who is 91-years-of-age. They are all very welcome. I hope they enjoy their day.”
“We have to adjourn the debate at 12 noon. We will come back to it next week. We will resume with the Deputy next week. I thank the Minister for taking the debate and extend my sympathies to her on her recent bereavement.”
“Dogs are barking and the caravan will move on, but I hope to God that there are enough people in this House, across all the political parties, who will put down some sort of motion to bring the spotlight back on the HSE and the South Eastern Health Board to insist that they be asked to come before us. I believe that the Farrelly commission and others should be brought before a committee of this House so that the content of these reports can be teased out. It cannot be let go.”
“He was asked twice in cross-examination whether he minded if it were described like that, whether that was the way the HSE would work, and whether that was what he meant by it. He said it could be called that, as casual as you like, probably knowing full well he was going to get away with it. In that commission, the HSE was armed to the teeth with lawyers of one kind or another. They cross-examined some of the witnesses in a brutal way. When witnesses then wished to cross-examine someone else, they had to do it themselves with no legal protection or legal representation. There is so much wrong with this report and so much wrong with what the Government is suggesting, which is that we now give it to somebody else.”
“We can go back to the public accounts committee and what happened thereafter, but the whistleblowers will tell us that despite all the correspondence they entered into, the key correspondence was never replied to. It was never acknowledged. That is why the greatest reports that are there to help are the reports that were written up by the social workers. They must not have been read by the commission. They would make a stone cry, so they would. It was the social workers who were telling us this. In the transcripts from the commission, when an official from the HSE was being cross-examined on how it would approach things legally, it was put to that person that what he had been describing was actually legal subterfuge.”
“When a child turns up at a daycare centre doubly incontinent, destroyed, with filthy clothes, unkempt hair and eating all round her, both her food and everybody else's - that is contained in the reports - does that not ring alarm bells? Did the commission not see that? Did it not understand it? In the course of the commission's report - I could not read it all but I read some of the transcript - I saw that the most senior person at the time did not know anything about Grace. Another person sent a submission to the commission. He delivered it by hand to the HSE at Lacken. The commission contacted him some time later asking him had he nothing to say. He said he had given a submission, typed it up himself, gone through everything in detail and got it signed for. The commission did not have it. It is a similar thing all the way along.”
“That is fraud in terms of social welfare payments and where the money went, but we are not going to look at that, according to the Farrelly commission. On sexual abuse, Grace had bruised breasts and thighs, black eyes and God knows what else, and there was an accusation that she was sexually abused and implements were inserted into her. Does that not cause the Minister to be concerned that this is not about just one case, but other cases involving men and women? They were young, non-verbal men and women and we are just going to leave it go. There is a case there for sexual abuse having happened. The Garda thought so. It sent five files to the DPP. I covered financial and sexual abuse. There was also physical abuse.”
“In the notes, which are handwritten, of every single meeting with the HSE, I noted that the HSE's first reaction was one of, "My God, this will destroy the corporate image of the HSE, we will have to stop it in its tracks." It is written in the various reports I found. That is true. Are we going to leave that too and walk away from it? Are we going to allow those within the HSE at the time, who knew everything about Grace, to walk away, and do nothing? The front pages of newspapers scream headlines about corruption, abuse and so on. Financial abuse is dealt with curtly in the report, which glossed over it. Not one single penny did Grace have when she finished in that home. She had no bank account. None.”
“She was undressing and putting herself into a sexualised position that she would never have known about, lying down with her legs apart. Will the Government ignore all of that? It is not me saying it. It is there in the various reports by whistleblowers and by the staff within the HSE. The Government cannot walk away from this. The senior person involved, who was a social worker but was senior in terms of administration, was never shown this file. He did not know that Grace existed. It was kept from him. The file was kept elsewhere and he did not know. It was a cover-up from start to finish. Every report since then has been a cover-up and a whitewash. I do not say that lightly. I got a text this morning from another woman asking to please not let people forget her daughter.”