Paul Girvan
South Antrim · Democratic Unionist Party · Northern Ireland
“On a point or order, Mr Speaker. I appreciate that my comments on the ministerial statement that was made prior to this motion have created some stir. I wish to withdraw some of the comments in relation my calling into question the judiciary on how they will expedite this inquiry.”
“Minister, I, too, welcome the inquiry. In doing so, I would like to know what is meant by a paragraph in your statement that you would have liked, and your personal preference was for, a time-bound inquiry. We have no indication of how long that could be.”
“I thank the Minister for her answer. I have had occasion to speak to a number of prison officers who have indicated that they are under excessive stress and suffering from a lack of support. What mechanisms is the Minister putting in place to ensure that there is support to ensure that they are safe in their working environment?”
“That is, of course, very important. The Department has been working on a scoping exercise with the Strategic Investment Board that will make recommendations on how we can work together with our arm's-length bodies and voluntary and community sector organisations to promote and develop a culture of lawfulness in our society.”
“I thank the Minister for his answer. The application is not being dealt with at a local level; it is being dealt with at departmental level. As a consequence, I would like to know the Minister's view on the inclusion of what are termed "passing bays" on third-party land that the applicant may not have control over.”
“I thank the Minister for her statement to the House and welcome it. I want to ask her about staff. On the previous Minister's announcement, the PPS had already made a decision and had taken the opportunity to either relocate staff or ask them to go under the voluntary exit scheme (VES).”
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“I appreciate that I am a great believer that "A stitch in time can sometimes save nine". If it is identified that we spend a large percentage of our budget on paying out claims, will there be an opportunity to reprofile next year's budget to ensure that a greater emphasis is put on maintenance as opposed to claims?”
“I thank the Minister for his answers thus far and for detailing the list of projects that are under way. I want to come back to the Ballyclare relief road. On the understanding that we know that mechanisms exist elsewhere — maybe not in this jurisdiction — whereby a Department can access funding to deliver a project and draw it back over time, will the Minister look at that for the Ballyclare relief road, if possible?”
“I thank the First Minister for her answer. In the Fresh Start Agreement, reference was made to corporation tax and how it would be delivered. As a consequence of the referendum vote and the outcome on Friday, does the First Minister agree that the Azores judgement, which would have had a major financial impact on Northern Ireland, is no longer a priority?”
“I appreciate that we are working with what is not a bottomless pit of money. Irrespective of whether there is a legal issue, there is a point where there is a moral understanding. A number of these individuals were not aware that, because they were under the Civil Service based in Westminster and not the Northern Ireland Civil Service, there was a difficulty. I think there is a moral understanding about those who were contracted out, maybe working in other Departments, who have lost out dramatically because of this. There needs to be some understanding that we will attempt to do something. I am asking the Minister about the moral perspective.”
“I thank the Minister for his answers thus far. On fiscal powers, I appreciate that VAT came about because we entered the EEC back in the 1970s. Mention was made of a reduction in our VAT level. Another tax that was brought in was air passenger duty (APD), which was really brought about only to deal with a green tax on our airlines. If we exit Europe, will you support the doing-away with VAT and APD?”
“I am keen to see that things go forward fairly quickly in this mandate. Some people had a doomsday scenario, but I appreciate that we are trying to hit the ground running and we have to get the Bill through before recess. I understand the time constraints, but it is interesting that, when you have people around the table who are willing to work and to deliver, you can make it happen. That is what I want to see happening in future.”
“We must invest in our young people to ensure that those who go into further and higher education are not coming out of our universities with degrees that are not worth the paper they are written on. I do not mean that from an academic point of view; I am saying that people are coming out with degrees that do not have jobs identified with them. There needs to be more engagement on the delivery of higher education so that we have degree courses that are geared towards growing our economy and we ensure that the people who come out of our universities have the skills and ability to take up jobs that we can and should lead the world in. We have demonstrated that in the past and have every opportunity to do it in future. <BR /> <BR />I support the Bill; it is the way forward.”
“That is the very point: we need to bring forward reform of the delivery of services. Some people might have a fear that we are trying to sell off the whole public sector and get rid of it and have delivery by the private sector: that is not the case. We need to ensure that we get value for money from what we pay for. We need to ensure that services work efficiently. <BR /> <BR />I appreciate that each Department has delivered cuts over the last number of years. Each and every one of them had to take pain when the 3% cut was delivered in efficiencies year on year from 2011. We have shown that those cuts did not come without pain, but we now have to consolidate and move forward. That opportunity is there for us. <BR /> <BR />In future, I look to see that we can work together to deliver for the betterment of Northern Ireland.”
“There is also a scenario in the health service where people from our Province are shipped across to England or down to Dublin. We put their families up in hotels and are pay exorbitant costs to get an operation done, but, if we were doing it properly and dealing with it correctly, it should be done here for better value for money, costing the Northern Ireland public purse less money. Those are areas that we need to focus on to ensure that we get the best bang for our buck.”
“It relates to exactly the same thing in infrastructure when you have a pothole. You might spend thousands of pounds on claims dealing with that pothole when £200 might have fixed it.”
“The £67 billion — the £67 million, rather, although £67 billion might help — brings us up to our £200 million commitment for the current financial year. I believe that additional moneys are required. Most important, however, is probably the reform that needs to take place not just in the delivery of our health budget but in the delivery of healthcare in the Province.”
“I thank my colleague. He makes the very point that I wished to come on to. We have had engagement with those who wish to bring forward the project, and we believe that there is a mechanism to enter into a partnership deal and to claw back the money over the next 25 years without costing the public purse or our block grant a penny. Some of the European bank loan funds could be used to access that funding to move forward with the project. <BR /> <BR />Those are areas that we should be focusing on. The extra billion pounds for health is a necessity, and there is the commitment to and, already, the demonstrated delivery of additional moneys, as made in today's statement on the June monitoring round.”
“I ask that we look imaginatively at reasons to move forward with investment, which will allow the release of development land, in order to bring jobs to our economy for development, to sustain schools and to create employment in the building sector and construction industry. Those are all areas that we need to focus on, and spend will be made there. Mechanisms are there that are used elsewhere, not only in Great Britain but in the rest of Europe.”
“<BR /> <BR />I sit on the Infrastructure Committee as well. One of my concerns relates to the area where I live. In Ballyclare, we have a difficulty in that the town is hamstrung by traffic congestion. I know that I speak for my colleagues who represent the area. They would all say the same. A relief road was proposed for the town, and, as a consequence of funding difficulties, it was agreed that the road would be delivered by the private sector when a housing development was proposed. We have a Minister who says that he is willing to think outside the box and to work with others to come up with imaginative ways in which to fund such projects.”
“I speak, as a member of the Committee for Finance, in favour of the Budget (No. 2) Bill. There are a number of areas in which, I think, discussion would be to our benefit. We are working with an ever-decreasing Budget, irrespective of what anyone says. We had a number of years in which we were taking cuts to our block grant — cuts of almost £4 billion over the previous Assembly term. There were those who suggested a doomsday scenario. They said that everything would not balance and the country would be bankrupt. Well, we are still here. I appreciate that some people might have concerns about borrowing. I, too, have concern about applying too much debt, but I believe that debt that can be serviced and used to deliver savings or to prime the pump to help business to move forward is not necessarily bad debt.”
“I welcome the statement and thank the Minister for it. I appreciate that two amounts have been set aside for capital and resource for the Department for Infrastructure. Each and every one of us has concerns about the road maintenance budget, which has already been cut in the projected budget for this year. The maintenance budget is £5·3 million, but I would like clarification: was there a bid for additional moneys for the maintenance budget for the forthcoming year?”
“I thank the Member for her answer. Part of the reason I asked the question is that there is a fear that it could be used by others to make a political statement. Are criteria set down to ensure that it is for charitable events as well, such as autism and organisations such as that?”
“I thank the Minister for his answer. I take this opportunity to thank the Minister for his help during his short time in post. Will the Minister expand on that information by giving me the figure held by the Department for the total projected housing need for South Antrim?”
“There needs to be a mechanism to do that. I think that it was a very worthwhile event and the report was timely.”
“<BR /> <BR />One of the suggestions that came forward from our group related to putting forward a three-strike rule and a fixed penalty approach towards minor incidents. They could be dealt with by a fixed penalty, with the potential for recompense or the chance to rectify the problem that had been caused by way of restocking a river or cleaning the riverbanks and suchlike. <BR /> <BR />Another area that I was concerned about involved those who have identified that a pollution incident has happened. It is more important to ensure that livestock and animals that might drink from that watercourse are held back and not allowed to drink water that is polluted, thus preventing it from being added into the food chain.”
“An area about which the group that I was involved with had concerns relates to the inconsistencies that seem to exist with prosecution. It is part of the report. There seems to be a less-than-fair approach to those who have been found guilty of being the cause of major pollution incidents. Sometimes, it depends on who is in the court at that time. If he has some involvement in fishing, he can take a very hard line and impose a harsh penalty on the individual concerned, but somebody else, who may not have the same interest, may seem to take a more lenient approach. So, there seem to be inconsistencies. Those who are perpetrating the pollution and have been involved in a number of incidents do not seem to be treated with any greater force under the law. I felt that it was vital that something should be done about that.”
“The only redeeming factor is probably that the river is in flood and, as a consequence, the dilution factor is quite high.”
“They would probably be the first people to identify whenever something happens. <BR /> <BR />It was interesting to note that we have a number of sewage treatment works that are not always able to handle the volume they were designed for. As development has gone on, we have sewage treatment works run by the Department for Regional Development that are, unfortunately, sometimes the cause of pollution in some of our watercourses. As a consequence, I think it is vitally important that we now get it all under one umbrella, to deal with that approach and ensure that they do not cause a breach. I appreciate that, at times of flood, it can sometimes be difficult for the sewers to cope, and a certain amount of overflow makes its way into the river system.”
“We had some areas that the Department of Agriculture was responsible for, some where the Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure had an involvement, and then there was the Department of the Environment. This is an opportunity for us to move forward positively, with a joined-up approach to combating pollution in our river courses. <BR /> <BR />We have a great wealth of experience in the voluntary and sporting sectors in our communities. They probably have the first line of contact in making sure that they know when pollution happens, and identifying and feeding that in. It is important to capitalise on what is a great resource. It is the angling community, in particular, that is on the rivers, probably regularly, not always fishing, but observing what is going on.”
“I think that this was a very timely report that, to bring it back to the crux of the matter, came on the back of a number of incidents where we had major pollution incidents in our watercourses, a lot of which feed into Lough Neagh, from where a lot of us get our drinking water, never mind anything else. A consequence of any pollution that makes its way into the river is that it can ultimately make its way into what we drink. <BR /> <BR />Having attended the stakeholder event at Oxford Island, I thought that it was an extremely informative event. A number of areas came up, and I think that this is where the joined-up approach between Departments became an issue.”
“I thank the Minister for his answer thus far. I am very keen to go into the issue of fish kills, but I will steer away from it at the moment. <BR /> <BR />I thank the Minister for his assurance that no further sites have been identified and take some comfort from that. I appreciate that extensive costs are associated with clearing sites and disposing waste. Is there a mechanism to recover those costs, from either where it has been dumped or where it has come from?”
“I thank the Minister for his answer. In relation to the information that we have received, can we have a timetable as to when we would expect to have some of those funds rolled out?”
“I thank the Minister for his answer. I also thank him for his continued support and his endeavours to get to the bottom of some of the issues. Government bodies could be the inadvertent cause of pollution, because they have no control over what comes into their site but do have control over what happens going out of the site. Will they also be subject to major investigation by the Department?”
“I thank the Minister for his very detailed answer. I would like to ask about the fees that were proposed and are being put forward. What is the comparison with what happens in other regions of the United Kingdom in relation to the tariff that is to be paid to legal firms, barristers and solicitors?”
“For a point of clarification, does the Member have any idea what the cross-section of the cable for that underground interconnector would be?”
“— than run around and gather fines. It was recommended that they use other mechanisms.”
“<BR /> <BR />The Court Service seemed to be set in its ways in relation to its difficulties in processing and in ensuring that there was an effective and efficient mechanism to follow up the recovery of fines in a timely manner. Likewise, the Court Service needs to ensure that warrants go out in a timely manner, are not piled up until there is a lot to go out and, then, have to be chased round. A process more in line with following up directly and not wasting officers' time was recommended. There was a recognition that officers have more important things to do —”
“It identified a number of areas, and, in doing so, there was a recognition of all of the points that were brought forward by the Committee as recommendations. They were accepted by the courts, and some of them have been implemented. The report stated that there are many other ways of looking at these things. It also stated that it was necessary to modernise and move forward. Furthermore, it stated that the system for collections that is in operation should be looked at with a view to outsourcing it to a better and more effective process of recovery, and ensuring that that would work. The report identified all of those areas over which there was a lot of concern.”
“— but it alluded to a part that caused concerns in that we had already identified the lack of controls within the process, which could have left the process open to abuse. Only one was identified; I appreciate that you cannot tar everyone with the same brush. The process did not represent value for money. The courts had to pay the Police Service £3 million a year to collect that money, and about £1·4 million was paid from the Prison Service for dealing with it. Some people were actually put in prison for non-payment of TV licences, but some of the costs of putting them into prison and taking them through that process were far more than would have been incurred in relation to the associated fines. <BR /> <BR />I felt that there was a great benefit from the report.”
“I thank the Member for his intervention —”
“All sorts of problems were identified in relation to the payment of fines that were not being paid through the courts office, but being collected by police officers. It was recommended that that process be moved forward into the 21st century and that people should be able to make payments by other means, such as Switch —”
“He could offer us no explanation as to how or why that had happened. In dealing with the process, it also identified that the cash-handling process left itself open to major fraud. As a consequence, a PSNI officer was found guilty of the theft of fines amounting to £52,789. That identified a major shortcoming in how penalties and fines were being paid. <BR /> <BR />The process identified that we are in the 21st century but that we are dealing with an archaic system that has no recognition of the fact that you can pay by any means other than cash. Moneys were being put into an envelope and handed in through a door. It had to be paid in cash; receipts were not always being issued.”
“Speaking as a member of the PAC, I wish to focus on the Northern Ireland Courts And Tribunals Service report, which covered the financial year ending 31 March. During that inquiry, it was quite evident that the recovery of fines was not very successful. At that date, £19 million of that year's fines had yet to be recovered and was outstanding. It was unlikely that £6·5 million of that would ever be recovered. There were a number of reasons for that. One reason was that, during the process, it was identified that 6,682 warrants — I think that that is the right number — had gone missing and not been served. As a consequence, there had been a loss of £1·1 million to the Northern Ireland Court Service. It was identified that that was gross negligence. That was confirmed by the Chief Constable in his evidence to the Committee.”
“I thank the Member for giving way. I used the term because a number of the townlands have been anglicized. Unfortunately, we know the way that has ended up, with street names being turned into Irish all over the place. You see street names that have Irish names on them, and Mr Bradley said that he would be keen for Irish names to be used as opposed to the anglicized names.”
“It is actually called the Seven Mile Straight but it is longer than seven miles. There is a seven-mile straight part of that road and that is why it is called the Seven Mile Straight but the road is longer than seven miles.”
“We should be very careful about allowing this to happen. <BR /> <BR />It is a four-clause Bill that, in many ways, is relatively straightforward, but it makes absolutely no sense to me. Councils have a responsibility to ensure that numbering goes on, but numbering within townlands is not easy to appreciate. It is vital that we do not allow this to progress because it will just add more confusion for the 11 councils that have been set up. More of a war would now be created within them in relation to these matters. We should kill the Bill at this stage and not allow it to progress any further, because it will incur additional costs for councils and other mechanisms. From what I have been told, the GPS does not even recognise townlands as part of the mapping system. We should kill the Bill at this opportunity, and I will be opposing it.”
“I just wonder whether this is another string in the bow of those who want to engage in the cultural war that continues to be used, and I am using it because those in my community would say that Presbyterians were the people who kept the Gaelic language alive. Coming from a Presbyterian background, I do not say that I should not support the Irish language, but because it has been politicised and used on that basis, I feel that I cannot embrace it due to its politicisation, even within this forum. I believe that the Bill is another mechanism to do the very same. <BR /> <BR />Every person in this Building probably knows the townland that they live in or were born, unless they live in certain parts of Belfast where there may not be townlands. Most people, though, will never have thought of it being used politically or in any other way.”
“<BR /> <BR />I, for one, know, because I come from a country location, that you probably know everybody with a mile-and-a-half radius of you, so there is not a problem, but there will be people who have to respond who do not have that local knowledge, and they will have a difficulty. We should be making some move to ensure that numbers are visible and easier to find in that type of environment. <BR /> <BR />The anglicisation of a number of the townland names was mentioned in the debate. I would like some clarification on whether this is another move by certain people to ensure the promotion of Irish townlands, as was stated by Dominic Bradley, who said that he would encourage that.”
“<BR /> <BR />We need to take on board more issues associated with, for instance, ensuring that we have street names properly identified by councils that can be read without having to spend time trying to interpret what the Irish name is, and that the properties on that road are numbered to ensure that they are easy to get at. I know that certain people say that the postman can find their house all the time. That is simply because the same postman is always on that route and he knows virtually who everyone is, so there is no issue. The problem is that, if there are no numbers on the ends of lanes, there is always a difficulty in trying to find an address. If somebody new comes on, he will run into difficulty in an awful lot of rural areas.”
“He might answer that in his response to this whole matter, but that is something I think that we have to be very careful about. <BR /> <BR />The words "can, if they wish" are included as part of it. There is no idea that it will be the first part of somebody's address; it would be the townland, the street name and the number. That has caused all sorts of concerns, and I take on board the emergency services' approach. If somebody gave only a townland and a number and the services were using the current system, they may not make it to an emergency in time before someone loses their life. But, on the basis that they were trying to make a political statement, they can rest happy in the fact that they died within the townland that they gave the name for, simply because they could not be found. That needs to be looked at.”
“As a consequence, there should be some recognition in all of the databases of those who are involved in credit checks and such like so that they can access that information and make use of it. <BR /> <BR />There are a large number of townlands in Northern Ireland — we heard how many thousands there are. I happen to live on a road that has a fairly unique name, but in many towns there is a Church Road. As a consequence of having a Church Road, the only identifiable way of working out what town it is in is ensuring that the postcode is used. <BR /> <BR />My colleague who spoke before me asked a question in relation to conversations with Royal Mail. The fact of the matter is that its very name means the Member on the opposite Benches may be reluctant to speak to it because of the term "Royal".”
“We legislate for far too much in this society. Everything has to be legislated for. There is no common sense in an awful lot of cases, so we have had to legislate. If common sense was allowed to prevail, you would not need to put a mechanism in place to allow local authorities to take that approach. <BR /> <BR />We have heard how confusion has been caused in areas where people have attempted to renumber. Those looking for credit checks, because of an agenda that was being driven, did not wish to give their postcode or their house number, but were keen to just use their address as the townland in which they lived to ensure that that happened. Every address in Northern Ireland has a postcode.”
“No, I will not. I have listened to enough nonsense from you. The fact of the matter is that if you are driving along the Seven Mile Straight and put number 255 into your satnav, you will find number 255; it comes up within a few hundred yards of the property. More emphasis should have been put on ensuring that, within a rural setting, people have house numbers at the ends of lanes or on their properties so that they can be identified by the emergency services, but that is not what is being discussed here. <BR /> <BR />We need to discuss issues associated with why we believe that councils should take this on board and use valuable public resources to create another layer. I have no problem with trying to retain townland names and ensure that they are passed down, but we should not try to legislate for that.”
“To go down the route of changing numbers along roads within townlands could mean that, as you drive along a road, you could have seven number twos because it just so happens that that road crosses seven townlands. That is where the problem comes in. <BR /> <BR />On using the townland name first; the postcode system works and works very effectively. Most emergency services have the address, and the house number is located where it should be located There is a road in my constituency called the Seven Mile Straight. It is called that for obvious reasons, because it is seven miles along part of it. The numbers flow along that road. If you put in that you are looking for —”
“That has happened, and you see it as you drive around certain parts of Northern Ireland, especially when you go into a certain areas and find that you cannot recognise the street or road you are driving on. You see a road sign, but it has no resemblance to the name of the road that comes up on your satnav, because some well-meaning individual has decided to turn it into a war and use the Irish language as a mechanism for putting that message across. That is by the way. <BR /> <BR />I use my townland name, and it exists on the deeds of the property that I own within that townland. The names of the townlands are retained within that mechanism.”