Paul Girvan
South Antrim · Democratic Unionist Party · Northern Ireland
“On a point or order, Mr Speaker. I appreciate that my comments on the ministerial statement that was made prior to this motion have created some stir. I wish to withdraw some of the comments in relation my calling into question the judiciary on how they will expedite this inquiry.”
“Minister, I, too, welcome the inquiry. In doing so, I would like to know what is meant by a paragraph in your statement that you would have liked, and your personal preference was for, a time-bound inquiry. We have no indication of how long that could be.”
“I thank the Minister for her answer. I have had occasion to speak to a number of prison officers who have indicated that they are under excessive stress and suffering from a lack of support. What mechanisms is the Minister putting in place to ensure that there is support to ensure that they are safe in their working environment?”
“That is, of course, very important. The Department has been working on a scoping exercise with the Strategic Investment Board that will make recommendations on how we can work together with our arm's-length bodies and voluntary and community sector organisations to promote and develop a culture of lawfulness in our society.”
“I thank the Minister for his answer. The application is not being dealt with at a local level; it is being dealt with at departmental level. As a consequence, I would like to know the Minister's view on the inclusion of what are termed "passing bays" on third-party land that the applicant may not have control over.”
“I thank the Minister for her statement to the House and welcome it. I want to ask her about staff. On the previous Minister's announcement, the PPS had already made a decision and had taken the opportunity to either relocate staff or ask them to go under the voluntary exit scheme (VES).”
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“They get used to using a certain contractor and are maybe not totally aware that they are no longer using the services of that contractor. That management issue needs to be identified. It needs to be ensured that, when tenders are won, certain people who used to get orders for that service are taken off the list and that a new contractor gets the orders. That needs to happen and to be disseminated to staff. The whole information-sharing aspect needs to be dealt with. <BR /> <BR />There was also a report on Northern Ireland Water, which brought out major problems. We will maybe not go into the details of what happened in many other areas, but this was to do with Northern Ireland Water's awarding of contracts for the supply of water meters and how that had been mismanaged.”
“A recommendation was made to the Department of Finance and Personnel, and, to give it credit, it has already put in place a centralised service to provide expertise. Through the Northern Ireland Civil Service's centralised fraud investigation service, a mechanism has been put in place to ensure that what was identified at that stage will be flagged up early and that information will also be shared among Departments. Unfortunately, the report identified that not all Departments have the internal expertise to investigate potential fraud to the level that would be required by the PSNI to scrutinise investigations and present cases to be brought forward for prosecution, which possibly should have happened on many occasions. <BR /> <BR />The report also highlighted the difficulties for members of staff in those government bodies.”
“The Department's internal audit showed up nothing amiss. When a full investigation was conducted, however, it was identified that this contractor had lost out significantly as a result of what had gone on in the Department. The business went bankrupt and is no longer trading, whether as a consequence of what was going on or not. I appreciate that there was a contractor who received numerous orders prior to his contract finishing, which would have covered this gentleman's work over a period of time. That was demonstrated quite clearly in our evidence sessions.”
“Normally, most reports are brought about by whistle-blowers. Sometimes, that can lead to extra work for Departments. I appreciate there are occasions when you have to take risks to move forward and that risk-taking, sometimes, is removed. <BR /> <BR />The report that I am dealing with today involved a very clear whistle-blower. Some people might have perceived him to be a disgruntled contractor who basically did not get the crack of the work that he had won. It was identified that there were difficulties, but the Department's internal audit identified that no problem whatsoever was associated with the matter. As a consequence, the whistle-blower's concerns were not taken seriously by the Department. Between 2005 and 2010, the contractor was contacted by telephone on only one occasion and was interviewed once.”
“I appreciate that the Public Accounts Committee has sometimes come in for a certain amount of flak in relation to the reports that we have produced. One that I want to speak on is to do with a whistle-blower's report associated with the Department for Regional Development and the appointment of a contractor to provide signage.”
“I did not wish it to be implied; I wanted it to be totally overt. It definitely has gone on and is going on. It is alive and well in the Civil Service.”
“I appreciate that the Member is focusing on the fines, most of which will apply to private businesses. If it is identified that pollution comes from a government agency, how do we deal with that? That is one of the problems that we have. On many occasions, we pursue the wee man, but, sometimes, it is a government agency that has caused the problem. How do we ensure that such agencies are made answerable so that it does not happen again?”
“<BR /> <BR />I hope that the Minister takes this back. There is a frustration about how NIEA has dealt with this matter and how it deals with other such matters. I appreciate that the Minister is here this evening, but I believe that the Department for Regional Development, which, along with DARD, potentially causes more pollution than any other Department, should also be represented here to answer questions.”
“It is vital that we are having this debate this evening. I am opposed to Departments trying to cover up and not engage or feed back the information to those who are on the ground. We have the Six Mile Water Trust, the Ballynure Angling Club and the Antrim and District Angling Association, all of which have best interests at heart in trying to deal with the matter. Unfortunately, the Department tends to hide behind saying, "We have to take the samples; you can't bring us samples. We have to actually take the fish; you can't take the fish out of the river." When the incident was happening, the fish were struggling in the water. Three weeks later, we still have not got any results or answers about what caused the incident or what pollutant was in the fish. So, I will be asking further questions.”
“Whatever goes into Lough Neagh and the Sixmilewater ultimately ends up in our drinking water.”
“I have to agree with the Member. Sufficient penalties are not in place to ensure that they do not do it again. It is sometimes easier to allow the pollution and pay the fine. Unfortunately, that has been the case on many occasions. We need to ensure that that loophole is closed and that those who pollute are made to pay. That needs to be dealt with correctly, whether by a government agency or a Department. <BR /> <BR />I referred to the Ballymartin incident, which polluted and killed everything from where the discharge entered in Mallusk to where the river enters Lough Neagh. There is a water treatment plant in Lough Neagh that extracts drinking water, and it is not far from where the Sixmilewater enters Lough Neagh. We also have to think of the public's health and welfare.”
“That wiped out virtually everything right down to Antrim.”
“I said that a major cross-departmental approach is needed. These are wonderful natural resources. Whether people believe it or not, fishing is one of the most-followed sports in Northern Ireland. Fishing does not take away from fish in rivers; it ensures that there are fish in rivers. We have catch and release to ensure that we have a sustainable fish stock in the watercourse of the Sixmilewater, and that is vital. <BR /> <BR />On many occasions, money also came from other Departments to help to restock the river. Funding came from DARD and DCAL to help us with that. However, we are not addressing the link. If a farmer had been guilty of this pollution, a smoking gun would have pointed us directly to where it came from. In 2008, we had a major problem on the Ballymartin river, which feeds directly into the Sixmilewater.”
“The river water in that area has been great. Fish counts indicate that there is great recovery at that part of the Sixmilewater. I just hope and pray that the invertebrate tests that are being undertaken show that we still have invertebrate and fly life in the river bed. That is important. <BR /> <BR />There is frustration about the way in which officials dealt with the matter on the day. When they arrived, they were ill-equipped to go into the river to take samples and deal with the matter.”
“The NIEA is happy to take information from individuals, but it will never feed back information on what is going on in a timely fashion. <BR /> <BR />The most recent incident took place on 29 October. I mentioned other incidents, when it took years before we got what were not even answers but vagueness, which was not necessarily directed to where the problem arose. I have my own suspicions. I still believe that there is an intentional cover-up. We need to get to the bottom of exactly what went on. We heard that a meeting was to be held at the latter part of last week to review this case and come back with some information. We have still not heard what caused this pollution and what the contaminant in the water was that caused us to lose a serious amount of fish. <BR /> <BR />I live on the Ballynure side of Ballyclare.”
“Unfortunately, there is serious frustration with the Northern Ireland Environment Agency (NIEA) because of how it went forward with the issue. There has been delay. People who take a great interest in the river are willing to do samples and everything, but they are frustrated. There is a lack of a two-way street in relation to feedback on communication.”
“That might be only the tip of the iceberg; there might well be others that were not picked up because we do not know exactly when the incident took place. <BR /> <BR />I do not wish to point fingers directly, but it happened at the south side of Ballyclare. There is an industrial park in that area, and there is a major water treatment works that recently received approval to have £2 million of spend on upgrading the site. Most of the water makes its way into the combined system and then passes through the sewage treatment works before it enters the watercourse. <BR /> <BR />I appreciate that the Minister of the Environment is here. Perhaps the Minister for Regional Development and the Agriculture Minister should have been present as well because this issue crosses several Departments.”
“As a consequence, certain protections have to be put in place. <BR /> <BR />On the day on which the incident was identified — we do not know the exact time — we know that it was identified by a young fisherman who was on the river. He identified that fish were floating in the water. A pollutant had made its way into the water and wiped out a large number of fish. On the morning in question, 30 to 40 fish were lifted out of the water right away. Officials were on site, but they did not engage in removing fish from the water. That created frustration among the individuals who were there. They could see the fish struggling for breath, but officials did not accept fish that had been removed for samples. It ended up with 964 fish being removed from the river.”
“It is with great sadness that we have to have a debate about what is another major fish kill in the Sixmilewater. Unfortunately, it is not the first incident that we have had in the area; we have had several incidents. There was a fairly major one in 2008. There was a further incident in 2011, where a very major kill took place. It wiped out not only the fish but the invertebrates in the watercourse right through to Antrim town. <BR /> <BR />The incident took place at what is probably a very important time in the spawning calendar. Unfortunately, it has wiped out mature fish. Lough Neagh has an indigenous species: the dollaghan. They make their way into the river courses. The Sixmilewater is very important to me, but other rivers feed into Lough Neagh as well. They also make their way into those river courses, but the Sixmilewater is key.”
“I thank the Minister for his answer. Will he expand on which areas of south Antrim have a proposal to do transfers? What protections are going to be there for current Housing Executive tenants?”
“I thank the Minister for his answer. I wonder, Minister, whether you would be willing to introduce a living-wage condition as part of public procurement contracts.”
“On a number of occasions, flexible working has been demonstrated to be very effective and far more efficient for individuals. <BR /> <BR />As it stands, the body of work and the report as presented is a very true reflection of what happened in Committee. I support the recommendations. The report is helpful and means that we have a body of work that ensures that civil servants and those in management step up to the mark and ensure that we get delivery.”
“I am not sure whether special negotiations are needed with the unions to ensure that a snooping approach is not taken, but the situation does need to be looked into. The software is available and can be used to ensure that people are working and not turning on their computer in the morning, going off to do their shopping and coming back and saying that they were logged on all day. There is an opportunity to ensure that work is being undertaken. The outcomes are measured in the private sector, and I would like to think that we can ensure that the same protections can be put in place in the Civil Service and the wider public sector. <BR /> <BR />Savings can be made and productivity can improve. As long as people know that they have a job to do and a certain amount of time in which to do it, they will do it.”
“<BR /> <BR />Unfortunately, some believe that flexible working is and has been alive and well in the Civil Service for many years. That may be just my view, and it may not necessarily be that of the Committee, but there have been occasions on which individuals have come into the office in the morning, put a coat over the back of the seat and disappeared for the rest of the day. People think that colleagues must not be too far away as their coat being there means that they will be back. I use that only as an example. <BR /> <BR />I believe that we have to use technology. The technology is available, and the private sector makes use of it. Those in the private sector know when people are on their computer and what they are doing. Unfortunately, I do not think that we are implementing that technology to the same degree.”
“<BR /> <BR />Unfortunately, there are certain areas in the Civil Service that cannot avail themselves of flexible working; for example, those who are maybe delivering services directly to the public. One example is that those who want to empty the bins for a council cannot engage in flexible working, otherwise the bins would not get lifted. So, for some, the opportunity to avail themselves of flexible working is ruled out. I appreciate that flexible working seems to be more geared to administrative staff and management. That needs to be looked at to ensure that we get proper delivery from those areas. <BR /> <BR />The satellite-office opportunity is definitely there, as is hot-desking. We should ensure that people make use of them.”
“We even engaged in what is termed "videoconferencing", which is something that I believe could probably be used on many occasions to make savings, as opposed to flying people halfway round the world to speak to individuals for a very short time. The videoconferencing seemed to be quite effective and worked quite well. <BR /> <BR />Another area that I believe we should be looking at is the hubs that are available in the Civil Service and their usage. There should be feedback to ensure that a proper business case is being made for the rationalisation of the estate. As was mentioned in the report, the estate is used 45% of the time. From an efficiency point of view, that does not make very good business sense. I think we need to seriously look at how we can ensure that we get that.”
“I think that this is a body of work that needed to be done. This culture is alive and well in the private sector. One area that came out through the evidence that we received was that, in the private sector, a very strong business case is made each time it is brought forward and flexible working is put in place. Unfortunately, I did not have the confidence to believe that the same was the case in the Civil Service, and management would need to ensure that it is following what technology is available to ensure that individuals can and do work when they are supposed to be working flexibly. <BR /> <BR />I appreciate that this was an extensive piece of work that the Committee undertook, and many evidence sessions were brought forward.”
“The reason I am bringing the issue forward is that there is concern about some of the moneys for the project and ensuring that they have been ring-fenced. There is concern that, under the current pressures, it might disappear into the black hole that seems to exist in the Department of Education.”
“I thank the Minister for his statement to the House and the presentation of the draft Budget. What impact has the policy of austerity pursued by the coalition Government in London had on Northern Ireland's public spending and what does he anticipate it will be like over the next few years?”
“The Minister mentioned the figure of £750 million that was bandied about in the NICVA report. Why is that figure much lower now?”
“I thank the Minister for his statement. Some of the comments that have had to be made are unfortunate. When and why did he conclude that asking the Chancellor of the Exchequer for a facility of £100 million was the best answer to our current budgetary problems?”
“I thank the Minister for his answer. He mentioned that the report has been compiled and is ready. When will it be published and made available for everyone to look through? I understand and appreciate that there seems to be some delay in the Republic of Ireland in allowing that to happen.”
“However, we are sure that there will be an announcement by the Chancellor of the Exchequer in the autumn. We believe that that will be of some benefit to Northern Ireland, allowing us to use some of the tools in the box to grow our economy. That will enable us to ensure that we can bring in some private investment and allow businesses to move forward in an area that is targeting the economy as a primary driver for recovery. On the basis that there have been some cheap shots, I would say that there have been extensive negotiations with the Treasury on these matters. It is vital that we get fiscal control over some of those areas so that we can have a direct input on growing our economy. I oppose the motion.”
“Those cuts have been announced, and Ministers are acting responsibly to try to meet their budget requirements. That will leave us with about six months left of this financial year. If we went by the wording of the motion, by the time that the process was in place, we would already be into the next financial year. I do not think that that is a way of dealing with it. <BR /> <BR />As far as we concerned, our party opposes the motion. We are asking people to focus their minds on our 2015-16 Budget and to ensure that we bring forward a Budget that is fit for purpose and that will deliver. <BR /> <BR />The Programme for Government mentions corporation tax, and the Executive have attempted to move the Government to devolve that. That would not be without cost, and I appreciate that it would be a graduated process over time.”
“The previous Minister may have identified savings, but he did nothing to implement them. I appreciate that additional savings could be made. Nobody is saying that any Department with a budget of £4·7 billion is spending every penny correctly. I am not saying that it is all waste, but I am sure that there is still some waste. <BR /> <BR />We have to go on the basis and wording of the motion. Our 2011-2015 Budget is running into some difficulties, and we have to ensure that we have money set aside to deal with the penalties — the £87 million — that will come to Northern Ireland for the non-implementation of welfare reform. That money will be taken directly out of our Budget, and we will have to deal with that as a consequence. Each Department is also having to find 2·1% cuts and will have to continue to find them.”
“I oppose the motion tabled by Mr Mike Nesbitt and Minister Kennedy. As it stands, we are three and half years into our current Budget programme. It seems somewhat ironic that the Executive are being asked to draw up a new Budget to finish the Assembly term. I appreciate that we will have to focus on our 2015-16 Budget, which will require some focusing of minds to ensure that we bring it forward correctly. <BR /> <BR />Unfortunately, I think that there has been a little bit of political point-scoring going on, or an attempt at it. All the issues raised by Mr Nesbitt were negatives. There were absolutely no positives. I think that it is inevitable that we will have difficulties. <BR /> <BR />Our Minister of Health has made £500 million worth of savings in the three years that he has been in office.”
“I thank the Minister for his answer. In the light of the response, I do not know whether the Minister has been made totally aware, but we are aware that a large area of that road, which had been surfaced, is now being lifted at additional cost — we are hearing a figure of £1 million — because the compound or the surface was not of the right standard. Who set the standard? Will the Department be made to foot that bill or will the contractor?”