Paul Girvan
South Antrim · Democratic Unionist Party · Northern Ireland
“On a point or order, Mr Speaker. I appreciate that my comments on the ministerial statement that was made prior to this motion have created some stir. I wish to withdraw some of the comments in relation my calling into question the judiciary on how they will expedite this inquiry.”
“Minister, I, too, welcome the inquiry. In doing so, I would like to know what is meant by a paragraph in your statement that you would have liked, and your personal preference was for, a time-bound inquiry. We have no indication of how long that could be.”
“I thank the Minister for her answer. I have had occasion to speak to a number of prison officers who have indicated that they are under excessive stress and suffering from a lack of support. What mechanisms is the Minister putting in place to ensure that there is support to ensure that they are safe in their working environment?”
“That is, of course, very important. The Department has been working on a scoping exercise with the Strategic Investment Board that will make recommendations on how we can work together with our arm's-length bodies and voluntary and community sector organisations to promote and develop a culture of lawfulness in our society.”
“I thank the Minister for his answer. The application is not being dealt with at a local level; it is being dealt with at departmental level. As a consequence, I would like to know the Minister's view on the inclusion of what are termed "passing bays" on third-party land that the applicant may not have control over.”
“I thank the Minister for her statement to the House and welcome it. I want to ask her about staff. On the previous Minister's announcement, the PPS had already made a decision and had taken the opportunity to either relocate staff or ask them to go under the voluntary exit scheme (VES).”
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“That may well be the case in some instances. <BR /> <BR />It is wrong to state that England is proposing a change. They have nothing to state that there is any change coming. Scotland and Wales have, but I understand that England has not started anything. <BR /> <BR />I appreciate that we have a responsibility to ensure that people are safe in their home and that villages and areas are protected. Using the 25,000 cubic metre threshold is a fair compromise when it comes to not having over-regulation as the way forward. We are happy to move the rest of our amendments.”
“I take safety on board. We had it stated here today that, in the past 150 years, there have been only five breaches of dams or reservoirs, all of which caused no loss of life. <BR /> <BR />I do not really agree with what you said. You said that I would agree, but I do not, on the basis that, although Scotland has legislation on the table, that does not mean that it will be passed into law. It could well fall before the next election there and not be taken forward. Many things are put forward, and I am sure that many see plenty of issues in Bills that are waiting to be put through while hoping that they do not have to put them through. They hope that there will be a change in the elected body before that happens, resulting in the proposals falling at the next election and such Bills having to start again.”
“They wish to include every puddle in the legislation. I do not think that that is totally necessary. I think that 25,000 cubic metres is recognised as a dam. England has accepted it. I appreciate that some people say that they are going to change this in Wales and they are going to change it in Scotland. They have not yet changed it, and England has not changed it. On that basis —”
“Regardless of whether they are statutory consultees, they are consulted and have been consulted on three applications that I am aware of in the last 10 years. Development was permitted to go ahead, and no associated issue was raised. On that basis, this is something for which responsibility falls on those who responded to the planning department, regardless of whether they are deemed to be statutory consultees. They were still consulted on three fairly major applications in which they allowed development to go ahead, with no concern being raised at that time. However, we find that a number of the dams in private ownership are still included in the medium-risk area. That is by the way. <BR /> <BR />It is common sense to not just gold-plate, as some people have stated. That is probably what some people wish to do.”
“I own a small piece of land, and I ensure that water running from my land is not going to impact on or cause a problem to my neighbour. If it did, I would be happy to try to put it right. <BR /> <BR />One of the proposals put forward by the Department is that there is a twice-yearly inspection of certain reservoirs. I must congratulate the Committee: I am not on it, but I congratulate it on being able to pull that back and ensure that it will have to come forward to be approved by the Committee. We cannot approve the Bill until all these issues are addressed. <BR /> <BR />In relation to the amendments tabled by Trevor Clarke and me, I have to agree with what has happened. We are talking about development that has been consulted on.”
“The large percentage is associated with the public sector. I appreciate that, if there is a necessity for maintenance and there is risk associated with water storage facilities associated with Northern Ireland Water or any other public body, those will have to be addressed, and money should be put in place to ensure that that happens. That is natural risk assessment that will be undertaken. <BR /> <BR />I appreciate that any competent landowner or owner of such a facility will ensure that there is not a problem. They do not, wilfully, go out to let things go downhill. They are protected within law, as stated. There is a responsibility on individuals whose land these reservoirs are on to ensure that they are not going to cause a problem.”
“I appreciate that one of the two from the high-risk area happens to be in the area that I represent — in Ballyclare. I visited and was involved in a fishery that was running on that dam. I tell you this: if this were to be driven through, we will be looking for people to decommission certain watercourses. Unfortunately, if they do so, they will remove very valuable resources, which are used not just to store water. They have become leisure facilities for many individuals; they have become fisheries; and they have become a recreation opportunity for people. <BR /> <BR />As we have put forward, I think there is merit in saying that we should help the 12 individuals and private owners who will take advantage of not being included under the legislation. If we can remove any from it, it is better.”
“Ten will be removed from the low-risk area, and there will be some benefit in that area as a consequence.”
“We are using a sledgehammer to crack a nut to some extent, and I have difficulty with some of this. I will speak to the amendments that Trevor Clarke and I have tabled. <BR /> <BR />I understand and take on board the commitment made by the Minister that she will make sure that financial help will be given and provision made if this goes through and work needs to be undertaken on some of the reservoirs, dams or ponds, whatever you want to call them. <BR /> <BR />The rationale for an increase in the volume from 10,000 cubic metres, as proposed by the officials, to 25,000 is helpful, maybe not to everybody but to those whom it removes from what I believe is a draconian system that would give them an awful lot more bureaucracy to have to deal with.”
“I thank the Minister for his answer. In relation to technology and the availability of low-energy lighting — LED lighting is 80% more efficient than the lighting systems that are currently used — has the Department looked at investing in that to save in the future?”
“I believe that hanging your coat over the back of a chair while you are somewhere else could indicate that work is still going on even though the individual is missing in action: "inaction" might be the word. That needs to be looked at to ensure that we have measures in place so that people can work flexibly, but supervision is also needed to ensure that the work is being done. It is about getting the balance correct. As a whole, it is a good report. I welcome the downward trend in sickness days. If all the measures and recommendations that should be implemented by DFP are put in place, that would help to reduce the number of days lost to the Civil Service. I support the motion.”
“We hear all sorts of stories as to why there is such a high sickness level in that Department. The Department of Education also has high levels of sickness. We need to ensure that we try to address some of the reasons why individuals are telling us that they are off. Long-term sickness is another area. I have to recognise those members of the Civil Service who do not take any sick days. That is a large and growing percentage, which is good to see. In 2012-13, 55% took no sick days whatsoever. That has to be recognised, and those people need to be congratulated. Measures need to be looked at. <BR /> <BR />As a whole, the report is helpful. I had concerns about areas of the report, flexible working being one. I had a slightly different view on flexible working than some individuals.”
“It is good to recognise the good work that has been done and the programmes that have been put in place such as Carecall and the WELL programme. Those ensure that, when people come back to work after having been off, there is an opportunity to address some of the reasons for their being off. One of the worrying things is that 30% of days lost were associated with stress. It did not necessarily come out in the report whether that was work-related stress or whether other issues caused the stress, but suffice to say that 30% of absences were associated with stress or anxiety. We need to address that. <BR /> <BR />Some areas and Departments performed better than others. Some areas need to be focused on, and certain Departments should take this on board, the Department of Health being one.”
“We need to work on that to ensure that we get it delivered.”
“The sickness absence report very much came on the back of an Audit Office report, which highlighted the matter. Suffice it to say that there has been a general reduction in the number of days lost since 2006. It has gradually been going down. Unfortunately, it has not quite reached its target. I appreciate that the target set for last year was just 9·7, and it failed to hit that. It reached an average of 10·1 across the Civil Service as a body. I appreciate that there would be £37 million of identified savings if we were to achieve the same figure of 7·6 average days in GB, but I do not see it as just £37 million savings. I see it as a productivity saving as opposed to actual money saving, because I appreciate that the pay will still go on. So, I see it as a productivity saving.”
“I appreciate that, when they came into power in 2010, the Conservative Government made major cuts to the Northern Ireland block grant. We then set the four-year Budget for the Assembly in 2011 and that has impacted on where we are today. <BR /> <BR />So, it is with some reluctance that I support the motion. It is vital that we protect the block grant, but there is a certain hypocrisy in the way that this has been brought forward by Sinn Féin.”
“A lot of individuals out there are suffering because they cannot get operations or access proper health treatment, and there are those who will possibly lose their job as a consequence of the reduction in our block grant. <BR /> <BR />We have to ensure that we target what resource we have and grow our private sector but not at the expense of our public sector. We have to ensure that we have a public sector that is fit for purpose. I use the word "fit" because it has to deliver. It is not an employment agency. It is to work. I appreciate that we have to work with the trade unions to ensure that they understand that we have to deliver and have to cut our cloth accordingly. We cannot just break the Budget and go back with cap in hand and ask for more money.”
“<BR /> <BR />We also have some major infrastructural problems to deal with in Northern Ireland, where there has been major underinvestment for many years under direct rule. As a consequence of a campaign of terrorism and bombing, we spent quite a bit of our money having to rebuild property that was destroyed and rebuild our public infrastructure, which was being systematically taken to pieces by those who claim to be the custodians of ensuring that the public and the most vulnerable in our society are protected. We are now starting to see evidence that the most vulnerable in our society are sometimes not necessarily just people who are on benefit.”
“There is some irony involved in stating that we should lobby Westminster considering that, when it comes to dealing with any matter in Westminster, Sinn Féin do not even take up their seats in Parliament. We think that it is vital to ensure that we draw down the maximum money into Northern Ireland, and, if that means trying to protect our block grant, we will do all that we can and ensure that it is used effectively. <BR /> <BR />It is said that we are only ring-fencing the likes of Health and Education. I appreciate that those are two very important Departments, but, as it stands, they are probably being starved of resource as a consequence of some of the cuts that we are having to put in to deal with penalties that are being imposed upon us.”
“I stand to support the motion but with some reluctance and some difficulty because I see some hypocrisy associated with what is being put forward. I appreciate that we would like to ensure that we protect as much of the block grant that we draw down as possible, and I appreciate that it is vital that we use that block grant as efficiently as possible. <BR /> <BR />I believe that it is not Tory cuts but Sinn Féin cuts that we are having to deal with in our block grant in Northern Ireland. That has happened as a result of not implementing certain things, primarily welfare reform, and is leading to a major cost to our block grant at present.”
“I thank the Minister for her answers thus far. My supplementary question relates to businesses which, probably, have had a major turnaround. I think in particular of Mivan Marine Ltd: this time last year, it was in bankruptcy. It is a good news story. Is there any more information on how that is progressing?”
“Is there a necessity for somebody who is a maths teacher to have the Catholic teaching certificate if they are teaching only maths?”
“I support the motion as presented for the Rates (Regional Rates) Order (Northern Ireland) 2015.”
“During the revaluation of the non-domestic rate, it was identified that some premises would benefit from the process and others would probably be made to pay more. I appreciate that petrol stations in some areas seem to have been hit with an increase. Most petrol stations have now become mini-supermarkets, and effectively that has added to it. It is vital that, as banks have been withdrawing from rural communities, there was an intention to ensure that ATM providers in those rural communities could avail themselves of the rate relief. Therefore, those who want to put an ATM in a petrol station, in place of having a bank on a village high street, will take advantage of having a small area in their shop zero-rated, which can ultimately be used to attract people into the shop.”
“As a consequence, it is vital that we marry that up with the spend that we put through in the Budget. I appreciate that there are some who feel that the Executive have been working, in some way, to ensure that we save money in certain areas but waste it in others. Some people feel that there has been a Trojan Horse at work on that in recent days. That could create some difficulties in trying to balance the Budget throughout the process. <BR /> <BR />Understanding that we have the lowest rates, we continue to have the small business rate relief scheme in place for the next year. It is vital that those businesses take advantage of it. I appreciate that a small number of businesses in town centres fall outside the scheme.”
“I, too, speak in favour of the motion as a member of the Committee for Finance and Personnel. <BR /> <BR />There have been winners and losers in the process that we have gone through on the revaluation of non-domestic property. I can say only that, as far as I am concerned, it was vital that we did not increase the rate overall. As the Minister mentioned, Northern Ireland's rates are the lowest in the United Kingdom. The average rate in Northern Ireland is £825, as the Minister says, while, in England, it is £1,447. We are definitely not a party to increase taxation. I appreciate that it has been Executive policy to freeze the regional rate and ensure that £650 million is raised from the regional rate component. I think that, in total, we raise somewhere in the region of £1·1 billion through rates collection.”
“I thank the Minister for his answers thus far. Can he give an indication of the other measures that are being taken to reduce the public sector pay bill? In light of today's announcement, they are all the more important.”
“That is an interpretation of what I just said. I do not believe in the implementation of water taxing for households because I do not believe that it is a proper way forward. Where we can show economic benefit, we will support changes, and we are in favour of that when it is affordable and creates social and economic benefits for Northern Ireland. That is one area that we will support. <BR /> <BR />We support our amendment.”
“I cannot be sure that that would be ring-fenced and that we would be allowed to hold on to it. It is vital that what money we have in Northern Ireland is properly spent. That is where efficiencies come forward. It is important that we have those efficiencies and work our way through them. <BR /> <BR />We need to target sickness absence. This is vital, because we cannot lose 30,000 days a year from individuals in certain Departments and not feel any —”
“As a consequence, there is protection, and we would probably be less affected than other regions of the United Kingdom under the current format. So, I think that it is vital that we ensure that that protection is there. Under the current Barnett formula, we have some element of consistency and of knowing where we are for budgeting for the future. <BR /> <BR />We cannot support the Alliance Party amendment on the basis that it will equate to additional taxation. That will not necessarily be for the delivery of services, because we know that, as soon as you start to raise taxes, it automatically impacts on our block grant. We have some concern about that. We need to take on board that the Alliance Party is proposing to maybe use other avenues, and I appreciate that taxation for water is one such avenue.”
“I think that that will bring forward some recommendations about how that process is working and whether it is working effectively. So, I think that that review will be welcomed. <BR /> <BR />Where fiscal powers that we can or cannot have are concerned, we are dealing with the 2010 Budget, which Westminster set. That equated to a £1 billion cut in the Northern Ireland block grant, which was worked out over the next number of years. Basically, it has been managed up to now, but, looking to the future, I think that the Office for Budget Responsibility has projected that there will be as much as a 13% cut between now and 2019. I appreciate that, under the Barnett formula, a large percentage of our Budget will be protected under education and health, and that equates to around 65% of our block grant.”
“<BR /> <BR />However, we are in the dark in a number of areas because, as so much of the revenue generated in Northern Ireland goes directly back to Whitehall and is dealt with there, we do not have a handle on exactly how much is generated here. We ran into some difficulties when Treasury told us how much corporation tax was going to cost the Northern Ireland economy. <BR /> <BR />I appreciate, from ongoing work, that a 1% rise in the rates in Northern Ireland would equate to only a small increase of £5 million in the overall revenue. The regional rate is really the only tax-raising power that we have currently. I appreciate that a review of the non-domestic rate is being carried out by the Minister and the Department.”
“Long-haul APD was vital because we would have lost one of our only connecting flights to north America. <BR /> <BR />As things stand, we need to focus on a number of areas. We need an indication as to when the devolution of corporation tax is going to be implemented because that will help those who want to invest in Northern Ireland plan and schedule for locating or increasing their workforce here. It is important that we give that comfort to those who want to come and invest in Northern Ireland. They need to know the date and rate at which it will be set. Those are vital debates that need to be had.”
“Our amendment deals with reductions in the block grant, and, as we have heard from the Sinn Féin proposer of the motion and the Alliance proposer of the amendment, any increase in revenue from the devolution of tax-raising powers would cause a reduction in our block grant from Westminster. As Northern Ireland is a net beneficiary from the Barnett formula and the associated process, it would indicate that, no matter what we do, we will just be reducing and tinkering around the edges. <BR /> <BR />We are in favour of fiscal responsibility, but only where it benefits our community, as is evident from what has been put forward in relation to corporation tax and APD, both of which were intended to act as economic levers to grow our private sector as well as keep our links with other areas.”
“Would it not be right to state that one of the biggest areas in which there was a difference was the capital end of things? It was in relation to your Minister, his reluctance to deliver the A5 and how that had to be dealt with.”
“I thank the Minister for his answers so far. What percentage of civil servants take no sick days at all?”
“In light of what the Member is saying, is he aware that other councils have been able to set a 0% rise and that other areas in the same council area receive under the review of public administration (RPA) a 4·7% reduction in their rates over the year? That comes down to the good management of budgets.”
“To a large extent, businesses have to invest to go forward, so they will use that money to invest, whether it is in jobs or new technologies within their businesses. That will be for them to decide, but that opportunity will be there. A lower rate of corporation tax is one of the tools in the box. It might not necessarily be the silver bullet, but it can and should be used. I support the Budget Bill as presented.”
“We have invested moneys in the likes of Invest NI, which has gone out and probably outperformed on all its expectations on inward investment and bringing jobs into Northern Ireland. It is our place to ensure that the jobs that are here are supported and that we encourage employers to invest and keep up the employment within Northern Ireland. <BR /> <BR />I look at it very much as someone who was involved in the private sector, and it is vital that the private sector avails itself of the opportunities when we have the powers to deal with corporation tax. That will help others. Some people say that a lower rate of corporation tax will mean more going into the back pockets of those who are the owners of large businesses.”
“I support the Bill as presented. I welcome the work undertaken by the Finance Minister, his predecessor and the Executive in bringing forward a Budget to the Assembly, which goes a large way to dealing with it. We have the opportunity to borrow money within the next year. Some people have asked, "Why would you borrow?" We will borrow to pay for the exit programme for the public sector and will have an opportunity to reinvest that money in the years to come as we will not make that spend. <BR /> <BR />We have to grow our private sector. There has to be less reliance on the public sector; and, as an economy, we can only go forward once we have a private sector in place that is capable of delivering for Northern Ireland and creating the wealth to keep our economy going.”
“As a consequence of those personal agendas, sometimes they attribute a large commitment of public funds to deliver something that is deemed to be of interest to only a very small minority of people and that, at the end of the day, probably does not deliver anything other than a political or personal agenda. On the back of that, I think that it is vital that there is a realisation that we do not have a bottomless pit of money. If we did, you could go down the route of dealing with everyone's personal agendas. However, we do not have that, and we have to deal with that in the round.”
“I think that there needs to be a realisation that we do not have a bottomless pit. We need to make effective use of the money that we have. I do not necessarily believe that we are getting the efficiencies that can and should be delivered from two of the Departments that are making very large spends. <BR /> <BR />On the back of what has been said, from a Committee point of view, the review of the financial process and the budgeting process has caused concern. Some people believe there is a necessity to change that process so that there is a more streamlined, open and transparent way forward. That has to be dealt with. <BR /> <BR />I think that there are Ministers who attempt to go on solo runs and have their own vanity projects, wish lists and personal agendas.”
“<BR /> <BR />The Department of Health, Social Services and Public Safety deals with around £4·7 billion in the year, which makes up a very large percentage of our spend. The Department of Health and the Department of Education spend the lion's share of our block grant. There is some indication that £200 million has gone to Health, but of a £4·7 billion budget, that is a very small percentage, and I see some difficulties. <BR /> <BR />I have some concerns about continuing to throw money at Departments that do not necessarily make the best or most effective use of it. There have been some instances in which we have applied additional moneys to Departments, and when you come back and look at them a year later, you see that what was additional last year has become part of their bid for normal functions.”
“I see monitoring as rounds delivering the icing on the cake. You can still have the cake, but if you want to put additional icing on it, you have to use the monitoring round process to do that. <BR /> <BR />We have to see that less money came through in the last two major monitoring rounds than had been initially anticipated. That was a consequence of having £4 billion wiped from our Budget over the four years from 2011 to 2015, which is a result of the Conservative Government's approach to Northern Ireland. I appreciate that that hit was quite extensive, but it was managed. Whether people believe it or not, I think that it has been managed to a large degree. We ran into some difficulties towards the end, but that was a consequence of some past expenditure.”
“Unfortunately, some people say that we could do different things. Genuinely, I believe that we are better off with the formula that is being used. As a consequence, we have more money to spend than we generate in taxation in Northern Ireland. <BR /> <BR />I will move on to deal with Departments. Some have delivered projects in the past four years as a result of monitoring round programmes. We have a number of monitoring rounds in the year, taking place in June, October and January. As a result of picking out particular things and not receiving moneys from those monitoring rounds, certain functions, which would be deemed to be key, have been put on hold. I think that it is now vital that key functions are included as part of the bid process, as opposed to expecting the monitoring rounds to deal with them.”
“<BR /> <BR />That means we have to make sure we are collecting the maximum amount of rates, which are the main taxation opportunity for this House. As a consequence, we need to make sure that we get in the lion's share of those moneys and ensure that it is properly spent and distributed to Departments. <BR /> <BR />We have attempted to address that through the revaluation of non-domestic premises, which has worked in town centres. There are those who may complain because they seem to be getting a fairly stringent hit but we raise in the region of £1·1 billion per year through rates. As a consequence of the Budget Bill, we are dealing with about £15·6 billion. A fairly large percentage of that is the block grant from Westminster. <BR /> <BR />The Barnett formula appears still to be the best option in town.”
“There have been costs: we have wasted money in delaying the implementation of welfare reform. Some believe that accommodations were made in that process. There is not a big lot of difference from what was agreed 18 months ago between the Department and the Treasury. We got it over the line through the Stormont House talks and that was something. <BR /> <BR />The rates re-evaluation process has attempted to address what was some imbalance in town centres. Sometimes, town centres pay the lion's share of the rates. As a consequence, they were not necessarily having the footfall to facilitate that. To help to regenerate some of the worst-hit towns, some movement has been made. There are winners and losers in every process but the revenue raised through the rates will not necessarily increase dramatically.”
“The Committee had a good opportunity to go through the budgets as presented. In doing so, there are areas I have concerns about. We heard about transparency. There is a lack of transparency in how the figures from Departments are presented in the Budget statement. Block headings seem to hide quite a large spend. Certain Departments seem to be worse at that than others. I do not know whether that is officials or direction from ministerial level but large budget headings seem to hide large amounts of money. Quite a bit is not as transparent as it should or could be. <BR /> <BR />We are maybe in a better position than a few months ago in that we had all sorts of doomsday scenarios if we could not achieve a Budget. It looked as if the draft Budget was going to give serious problems. A good of amount of work has gone on.”
“You mentioned education in north Belfast. The Department of Education is providing transport to and from the school, so it has obviously changed its policy on children going to their closest school.”
“Crime figures in the area have increased, and a lot of fingers are pointing in one direction. It needs to be looked at. This site has caused major concern. I blame the Housing Executive for allowing what was an open space area to be occupied and for creating this problem.”