Paul Girvan
South Antrim · Democratic Unionist Party · Northern Ireland
“On a point or order, Mr Speaker. I appreciate that my comments on the ministerial statement that was made prior to this motion have created some stir. I wish to withdraw some of the comments in relation my calling into question the judiciary on how they will expedite this inquiry.”
“Minister, I, too, welcome the inquiry. In doing so, I would like to know what is meant by a paragraph in your statement that you would have liked, and your personal preference was for, a time-bound inquiry. We have no indication of how long that could be.”
“I thank the Minister for her answer. I have had occasion to speak to a number of prison officers who have indicated that they are under excessive stress and suffering from a lack of support. What mechanisms is the Minister putting in place to ensure that there is support to ensure that they are safe in their working environment?”
“That is, of course, very important. The Department has been working on a scoping exercise with the Strategic Investment Board that will make recommendations on how we can work together with our arm's-length bodies and voluntary and community sector organisations to promote and develop a culture of lawfulness in our society.”
“I thank the Minister for his answer. The application is not being dealt with at a local level; it is being dealt with at departmental level. As a consequence, I would like to know the Minister's view on the inclusion of what are termed "passing bays" on third-party land that the applicant may not have control over.”
“I thank the Minister for her statement to the House and welcome it. I want to ask her about staff. On the previous Minister's announcement, the PPS had already made a decision and had taken the opportunity to either relocate staff or ask them to go under the voluntary exit scheme (VES).”
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“This is one community that does not want to have shared space with anyone. That has been demonstrated throughout, with the problems that it has caused elsewhere. <BR /> <BR />We have recently had difficulty in the south Antrim area, where a number of businesses were held to ransom by these families. They parked up and asked for several thousands of pounds to move away from people's gates. All the customers had to come in and out past them. They have created all sorts of mayhem as a consequence. Some very big international companies have been affected like that. I know that Caterpillar, which was FG Wilson, also had a major problem on its Larne site. <BR /> <BR />That community needs to recognise that it has not endeared itself. It is not going down the right route.”
“That is the point. The Housing Executive has failed people who have been good tenants and who attempt to look after their properties. It has gone down the route of making an application for what is a temporary site. I do not like the word "temporary" and want to know how long "temporary" will be. We all know that, once something has had an approval on a temporary basis, that sets a precedent and opens the door for a permanent application to be approved. There is a major issue there that needs to be looked at. <BR /> <BR />We have to consult widely if we are going to put in a permanent site. However, I do not think that that should be over and above what is expected of any other tenant of Housing Executive stock. I do not think that special accommodation should be made. We all talk about turning areas into mixed and shared spaces.”
“We are not talking about small numbers but about hundreds of people in the community who feel that the Housing Executive has failed them, not just by not consulting them but by going down the route of looking for temporary approval on what I deem a sensitive site. Trevor already mentioned the issues with the monument beside it —”
“<BR /> <BR />I agree that, if you want to talk about equality, I would say that we have had a measure of inequality dealt to those who wish to abide by lawful means and go through the proper process. They are being put to the back of the list, in favour of those who want to ride roughshod over the process. Having been on the receiving end of some physical abuse from members of that community, I can say that they have done nothing to endear themselves to the wider community by showing any intention of wanting to integrate or by being in any way friendly towards those whom they have to live beside. As a consequence, a large number of residents and others have signed a petition.”
“I thank my colleague for bringing forward the Adjournment topic. It highlights a major difficulty that we have. I, for one, believe in using the Housing Executive list to identify those in greatest housing need. Unfortunately, we have one section of the community that has decided that it can sidestep all the measures in place to ensure that people get accommodation on a fair and equitable basis. Whether they want to call themselves Travellers is one way of looking at it. We are dealing with one family in particular, who have occupied a site, not necessarily with approval. They have tended to wreak mayhem everywhere that they have been, and I would class them as a lawless family. They have created all sorts of disturbances, right from Belfast City Hall forward. They tented the area around Belfast City Hall to highlight their plight.”
“I was not here for that part of the debate, but what was said indicates the intolerance of that community if someone showing a flag on their licence will be intimidated and persecuted because of that. That says more about them than it does about anything else.”
“Last week, I asked a question in the House about budgets and Ministers. The answer was that the Minister prioritised where he made his spend. That is a vital message.”
“I understand that the process used by the PSNI under Patten showed up glaring problems when a full tier of upper management decided that they all wanted to go at the same time. Because of ineffective workforce planning, we ended up having to re-engage and re-employ. That was a false economy. There has to be proper management of the process. That is an area that needs major focus, and we have a very small window in which to make it effective. How Ministers break up their budget is one area. Last week, I asked in the House —”
“We all received the emails lobbying on the problems that would be associated with schools. We took that on board, we prioritised it and we fed it into the centre. We made sure that, when moneys became available, they were used. <BR /> <BR />I come back to the point in the amendment tabled by Mr McCallister about funding and the borrowing of money. We have the opportunity to borrow money, but it is on the basis that we will get people to take part in the voluntary exit scheme. Provided that that works effectively, we can borrow against it. However, we have already had to make a business case for where those savings will be. By making that spend, we will save. In fact, we will save more in the first year than it would have cost us to deliver, providing that we get adequate uptake and the process is properly managed.”
“I appreciate that new money became available and the draft Budget as presented had no reflection on the final outworkings. Some Departments were able to get additional moneys through the process. The Department of Health got additional funding, somewhere in the region of £200 million. I am in receipt of an email in which some Members claim to have spearheaded the fight to revitalise and rejig the Budget. I appreciate that we did not depend on certain people to rejig the Budget; they never agreed the Budget. Therefore, I have difficulty accepting those who claim to have been involved in those areas. They have not delivered and would not vote for the Budget, yet they are happy to take all the benefits that are the outworkings of the Budget, including £64·5 million going to education.”
“I have to disagree with what Mr Nesbitt said when moving the amendment. In the budgets that were in place in 2011 and agreed prior to this Assembly being formed, health was an area with major concerns. Had we gone along with that, there would have been 4,000 redundancies in the Department of Health and a major reduction in delivery. Today, we have 780 more nurses than in 2011, when that budget was set, and we have over 200 more doctors and 100-odd additional consultants. It has been increasing, never mind the redundancies that everyone talked about. <BR /> <BR />I turn to the timing of the debate. On 19 January, the Budget was presented to the House. I appreciate that there is some difficulty around why we have to bring it forward in this format.”
“I agree with my colleague's comments. I appreciate that we are in a political forum, but, instead of trying to score political points, a number of Budget areas — I think of a debate in the Chamber yesterday — are associated with Ministers' vanity projects or personal agendas that they want to drive through, and they are using this as an opportunity to do so. It does not give a good impression to the public. For those from their constituencies who may have a vested interest, it might play out as good politics, but it does not help in the overall scheme of things in Northern Ireland. It does not deliver value for money, and it is important that we get that throughout the area. <BR /> <BR />To go back to the amendment, I appreciate that there were concerns over the timing of the draft Budget and the consultation period.”
“I appreciate that being included, albeit that it comes from community projects that I deem important — I am thinking of the strategic investment fund.”
“The Finance Minister's motion is to move the spend of almost £12 billion of the Northern Ireland Executive's Budget that we are allowed to spend, and I appreciate that amendments have been tabled, which could be seen as just an opportunity to grab money and send it to Departments that parties have responsibility for. I am talking about the Ulster Unionist amendment, which relates to about 0·25% of the overall Budget. That must mean that Ulster Unionist Members are fairly happy with 99·75% of the Budget, even though they voted against it. It is interesting that some people have ideas as to what they should or should not do with that. However, the UUP amendment does something that the SDLP has not done in the past: it shows where money will come from to be dispensed through Departments.”
“Does the Minister deem it necessary to look for monitoring round funding to deliver what are key functions of the Department for Regional Development?”
“I thank the Minister for his answers thus far. Does the Minister share the concern that some have expressed that the Executive are now too dependent on borrowing?”
“I support the motion and oppose the amendment.”
“<BR /> <BR />Some people are great at shouting about equality, and ensuring that there is equality. I believe in equality, but it has to be fair. It is not just equality for some but equality for all. Unfortunately, some people do not see it like that. I believe that we could have used the £114 million to direct towards protecting some more of our additional functions.”
“I see policing as a key function and a core responsibility, to give security to our constituents and to our Province. However, in doing so it is vital to note that what we are really dealing with is how individual Ministers decide to divvy up their own budgets, what they deem to be their priorities and what is most important to them. We have seen political games being played in relation to areas that they have to protect, and ensuring that we cannot spend money outside that area. I feel that it is something that we waste a lot of public money on: what I deem to be probably either grandiose ideas of schemes that they want to bring forward themselves, or the protection of certain sectors that they have a vested interest in. We have to ensure that that does not happen.”
“If we were ruled directly from Westminster — I think there may be those who feel that that might be an easier way out — what has been negotiated as a way forward and a Budget would probably not have been as deliverable, as we would not have had the opportunity to do that as a local devolved Assembly. I think it has been of some help. <BR /> <BR />It is interesting to find that those parties that voted against it will still take advantage of the benefits of the agreed Budget, including the money that has been passed through from the January monitoring round and how that is being divvied up. They will still take advantage of that. <BR /> <BR />I appreciate and take on board the comments made by my colleague from South Antrim.”
“Maybe that is because there are pressures elsewhere within the system that add to the problem that we have in A&E. <BR /> <BR />I just want to give a few statistics. Some months ago, I asked the Minister what the difference was in employment of nursing staff and doctors within the health system between March 2011 and March 2014. We have had an increase of 780 nurses since 2011, which is a 6% increase. We have 201 additional consultants, which is a 15% increase. We have had an increase of 82 middle-grade doctors. What are deemed to be allied health professionals might vary from person to person. We have 377 more allied health professionals than in March 2013. <BR /> <BR />I think that we are looking at a very different matter.”
“In relation to the motion as it is presented to the House today about protecting our core public services, the party that put the motion forward and the party that proposed the amendment have probably created a problem within our public service because they have cost us £114 million that we have to pay back to the Exchequer because of their delay in implementing welfare reform. I do not think there are big changes between what was presented and has been agreed in the Stormont House Agreement and what was presented some six or seven months ago. <BR /> <BR />The idea of core services varies depending on who you talk. I appreciate that, at the moment, A&E units seem to be a core service and everybody says that we are neglecting our A&E units.”
“I thank the Minister for his statement and appreciate that it is up to each Minister to decide how they break up and prioritise the budget in their Department. In the light of the comments made, is it necessary to proceed with the voluntary exit scheme, given the proximity of the spend between this year and last year? There is very little difference.”
“It is important to assure people that we have invested in the facilities in the area and that the courses that are available will be shared between Antrim Grammar and other schools. There are a number of very good schools in the area that can and should be able to deliver AS level and A-level courses. We should make that provision, so I support the topic. I ask that the Minister tasks the Department to do a report on provision of sixth form — years 13 and 14 — facilities in the Antrim catchment area.”
“<BR /> <BR />We have requests for additional sports facilities, and we know that, for pupils in Antrim who want to do PE, as I call it, at A level, the facilities are not there. We can do something when we are dealing with the redevelopment and the new school at Parkhall to ensure that adequate facilities are available for others to use as well. It is important that a report be brought forward to address the issue so that we do not spend a lot of money for young people to sit on buses to go from one area to another. There are good facilities on their doorstep, but parents will make a judgement that they do not want their child to have to move to another area when they finish their fifth year — year 12.”
“<BR /> <BR />I ask that a study be carried out to evaluate the best available options at the least cost to ensure that we can deliver a full curriculum of A levels and AS levels to the young people of Antrim and the surrounding area. It is a growing area in which the population has not been stagnant. Populations tend to go through cycles in certain areas. I think of what has happened in one of the largest estates in Europe, which was built in the 1960s: Rathcoole. It had three schools at one time, and now it has none. Families are starting to come back into the area, and a lot of young people have to be bussed from Rathcoole to other areas. It is important to plan properly and ensure that it goes forward.”
“Encouragingly, young people are staying on at school to get qualifications, and, as a consequence, parents are making judgements. If a child is not offered the opportunity to get an A-level or AS-level qualification in the subjects that they want to study, parents will vote with their feet. As was said, a large number of parents are sending their children to schools outside the area. That is not because quality education is not available. Unfortunately, as the Member who secured the debate said, it is because they do not like their child having to move halfway through a course to another school. That is a big upheaval, maybe involving a change of peer group and everything associated with that. That is vital.”
“I thank the Member for proposing the topic this evening. It brings me back to something that has happened in the town that I went to school in. To offer a full curriculum of opportunities to young people in years 13 and 14, Ballyclare Secondary School and Ballyclare High School have combined so that they can offer a wide range of subjects. If physics is not offered in the secondary school, pupils can transfer to the high school for physics. That opportunity is available, and it could be used in Antrim, which has been bereft of such an opportunity for young people.”
“I thank the Minister for his answer. In a previous answer, he alluded to the fact that 80% of education time is not necessarily in the classroom. I appreciate that other areas were identified where spend is made. When did it become a statutory duty of the Department of Education to provide breakfast? That should be the parents' responsibility.”
“One area that I was quite interested in is to do with payments made to facilitate dismissal on the grounds of efficiency. In the private sector, that might be called the sack; the public sector has other ways of dealing with it. That, seemingly, does not preclude people from getting payments, and that is something that I would like further investigation of. As it stands, we support moving ahead with the legislative consent motion, which will allow us to close what has been a loophole.”
“They may have worked in a local government department and been made redundant, but they have many skills as a chief executive, for argument's sake, in local government and feel that they could do something else in the courts end. As a consequence, they will not have to hand back any of the very large payout that they might have received as well as the contribution that has been made to a pension pot for them. There are areas that need to be looked at later. However, to allow us to move ahead with this opportunity to close a loophole and safeguard the public purse and public finances, it is vital that we deal with the issue. <BR /> <BR />Where compulsory redundancy has been dealt with, it is vital that some consideration is made in cases where people have had no alternative but to be made redundant.”
“After all, many people who have been trained in the Civil Service believe, for example, that they are quite capable of working in the Department of Agriculture and, once they find that they might have to move position or move to Ballykelly and decide that that is not necessarily where they want to be, they will quickly develop the skills to re-emerge in another Department. That is an area that we need to look at. <BR /> <BR />There is an opportunity coming forward for many people to avail themselves of the exit scheme in the Civil Service, and there might well be opportunities for some people, with the skills that they have acquired in whatever area they are involved, to say that they can work, for example, in the Court Service.”
“An earnings limit of £100,000 has been set, although I appreciate that might only reflect on a very small number of people in Northern Ireland. That has to be looked at. It may be that some change will need to be made at a later date, but in order to close the loophole we need to go down this route. <BR /> <BR />One area that I had concerns about is to do with a culture that has existed and probably relates to pension schemes as well. Some of this will relate to buying pension annuities for individuals who are, maybe, coming close to pension age and, as a consequence, might be buying added years. That will be included as part of the clawback if they return within 12 months. I am somewhat sceptical about the clause spectifying that it must be in the same area because we should look at it overall.”
“I wish to speak on the legislative consent motion on the Small Business, Enterprise and Employment Bill. I appreciate that, when you see small business mentioned in the Bill, you think it is something to do with the private sector, but there is very little reference to it. It is necessary to close what has been an opportunity for many people in the wider public sector. We have a very narrow view of what the public sector is, and public employees seem to filter right down to arm's-length bodies that are still being funded totally from the public purse. <BR /> <BR />There needs to be more of a workforce planning approach, not just in Departments but throughout the Civil Service and the public sector as a whole, to reduce the opportunity for people to take up voluntary redundancy payments and then re-emerge in the public sector.”
“I appreciate that there is also the opportunity to use some of that money to deliver savings. <BR /> <BR />I appreciate and support the work that has been done in the Committee.”
“In moving forward, we should focus on job creation and on some of the tools that we intend to use and the opportunities that are now there for us, primarily with corporation tax and the possibility of having the powers to vary our tax-raising ability in that. That is another tool that could be used to attract inward investment, and it is something that we need to look at. <BR /> <BR />People have said that they want to do all sorts of wonderful things, but they have never given us any examples of where the money to deliver those wonderful projects will come from. We do not have a bottomless pit. We achieved what I think is a reasonably good financial package in the Stormont House Agreement. Some people say that there is no new money, but there is a significant amount of new money to be brought forward over the next number of years.”
“On the back of that, there is an opportunity for some of that resource, which would have been used over the next number of years, to work its way back into delivery. <BR /> <BR />I appreciate that the Civil Service is really for delivering services to the public; it is not an employment agency. The message needs to go out that we need to justify every job in the Civil Service and ensure that there is delivery from those jobs and that we have not created a bureaucratic monster and a somewhat bigger problem. I appreciate that we have a vastly inflated Civil Service in Northern Ireland. Unfortunately, our private sector has suffered to a great degree.”
“I appreciate that there are areas that, we believe, should be ring-fenced and protected. I identified health and education, and I appreciate that job creation and how things go forward in DEL, in conjunction with DETI, are also areas that we should look at to ensure that we grow our economy and keep up. <BR /> <BR />Some of the areas associated with the financial package that has been produced in the last few days are on savings that can be brought forward and, in fact, on capital borrowings that can be put in place to help to fund a voluntary exit scheme. A voluntary exit scheme of somewhere in the region of, I think, £700 million has been identified as a possibility for that area.”
“As a consequence, everybody has a different opinion. <BR /> <BR />We have, I believe, demonstrated that the issue is how the customer is affected. At the end of the day, the front-line customers are the ones who will feel the effects on delivery of any cuts that are made. Therefore, if something will affect how the general public feel about a service, we should not be making cuts in areas that will have a great impact. <BR /> <BR />There are those in the Civil Service who have decided, and maybe Ministers have been allowing this to happen, to make cuts that are seen as painful to put forward a message. That does not necessarily deliver anything good for the Chamber or the public.”
“A lot of people want to say that the problem lies with London. I do not necessarily agree that that is where the total problem lies. We have problems associated with how we break budgets down at a local level, and sometimes harsh decisions have to be made. <BR /> <BR />I appreciate that there are major pressures on our resource DEL, and, as a consequence, some very hard decisions will have to be made. Unfortunately, sometimes we are not necessarily that good at stepping up to the mark and making those decisions, but we have to demonstrate our ability to do so. That is vital. <BR /> <BR />The issue is what should be agreed as priorities. Unfortunately, one Minister might have a priority for his Department and not necessarily agree with what the civil servants in that Department see as the priority.”
“The issue is how people have identified what are priorities and what are not priorities, and that is another area that has caused concern. <BR /> <BR />I appreciate that we are going into very tough times. There has been a major cut to our block grant over the last four years, and we are potentially running into another area of cuts. Effectively, we are seeing a reduction in real terms of 1·6% — in the region of £200 million — in our 2015-16 Budget. That does not take into account some of the areas that were dealt with in the Stormont House Agreement and additional funds that will be brought forward. <BR /> <BR />I appreciate that a draft Budget was put forward. Some of that will change during the next number of weeks as we work our way through things, but it is not easy to say where the problem lies.”
“From a Committee point of view, there has been a lot of good work undertaken on many aspects associated with the process and the way that we move ahead. Unfortunately, one of the areas that I have major problems with is monitoring rounds. Departments have depended greatly on monitoring rounds to deliver some of their key functions, and I will use the Department for Regional Development as an example. Everyone knows that fixing potholes and street lights are key functions of that Department, but, unfortunately, it decided to use monitoring rounds to fund those key parts of its job. As a consequence, when it has not received adequate money through monitoring rounds, it has decided to arbitrarily cut delivery of priority functions.”
“Will Northern Ireland received a Barnett consequential from the £2 billion announced by the Westminster Government, and will it be ring-fenced?”
“— November, when the Ballymartin river was polluted. Is the Minister aware of any investigations into that incident? That river is also a tributary of the Sixmilewater.”
“I thank the Minister for his answer. If there are further investigations ongoing with a view to making prosecutions, it will be fine to wait on that information coming through, but there was a further incident on 22 October —”
“I thank the Minister for her answer. Will she discuss the comment made by Bro McFerran from Allstate, which sent out a very mixed message on the benefits that corporation tax would bring to the Northern Ireland economy?”
“— proper invoicing should be dealt with. I apologise, Mr Principal Deputy Speaker, for running over. I did not really get into detail on the second part. Thank you.”
“That is why I made the point about people getting payments as opposed to waiting on a very long contract and ending up with millions. The overall cost of the contract is what really matters. I do believe that —”
“Sometimes, they were being paid umpteen times for visiting the same location. <BR /> <BR />The policing of that mechanism was not very good. Problems were identified, and invoice slicing was a big issue. Many recommendations were made. There was a clear weakness in the planned scope and methodology of the investigation. Despite references being made to the Department —”
“The report identified all sorts of problems whereby the people who were supplying the water meters were told to submit invoices for £20,000 or below. <BR /> <BR />If it is discovered that invoice slicing is or has been going on without a reasonable explanation, that is identified as being a potential or major fraud investigation. Somebody could be saying, "I need cash flow to keep my business going". That might well be the case, but there were major areas in which Northern Ireland Water was falling down in passing information through to the contractor who was supplying and fitting water meters. They were making numerous calls to areas. The information on when they could go to those locations to fit meters was available, but, unfortunately, that was not making its way back to the supplier of the meters.”