Fra McCann
West Belfast · Sinn Féin · Northern Ireland
“I want to thank everyone for the help that they have given me over the years, which has made my time here a lot easier. I also thank Assembly Members for the friendship, help and assistance that they have given me, from right across the Assembly Floor. I would love to say that I will miss everybody here; I probably will at times.”
“Go raibh míle maith agat, a LeasCheann Comhairle. <BR /> <BR />It was interesting to listen to Robbie, who has first-hand experience of what firefighters go through. To have someone like that speaking in the debate is invaluable.”
“The statistics tell us, as Members have said, that firefighters are four times more likely to develop cancer due to their regular exposure to pollutants in the work that they do on behalf of society. Further preventative measures are obviously needed, and that is what the Sinn Féin amendment addresses.”
“<BR /> <BR />The Assembly needs to send a message that that is not an acceptable way to treat front-line workers who put their lives on the line day and daily.”
“Better decontamination measures and modern, accessible facilities will improve the working lives of firefighters and help to reduce their risk of cancer and other illnesses. <BR /> <BR />I thank the DUP for bringing the motion to the Assembly, and, in conclusion, the Sinn Féin amendment strengthens what is a good motion.”
“I would have thought that such organisations, which play a vital role in local government, would have been able to tap into the consultation on the Bill, because it has been debated widely not only at Committee but in the Chamber.”
The complete record
Every one of 424 lines we hold for Fra McCann, in date order, each linked to its source. Free to read, in full, without an account. Page 2 of 9.
“That is OK. I have struggled through worse, Chair. <BR /> <BR />I also commend their success in bringing together so many political parties to speak with one voice on this important issue and their ongoing campaign to reform the rules governing fast-track access to social security benefits for people with terminal illness. Sinn Féin supports their view that the six-month rule, associated with prognosis, should be scrapped and a fairer definition, based on the judgement of medical professionals, introduced. <BR /> <BR />This issue was also brought to the fore recently by Lorraine Cox, who, supported by the Law Centre, took a High Court case to challenge the rule. We recognise that people with a terminal illness, who access an entitlement to social security under special rules, have a different experience from those who do not.”
“I have spoken to many people who told me that they would never have coped had it not been for the attentive and caring support that these organisations brought, on a daily basis, to their loved ones, from diagnosis through to palliative care. I also commend —”
“I make a special mention of thanks to Marie Curie and the Motor Neuron Disease Association. They are two wonderful organisations that provide an essential service for people who face life-ending illnesses and their families who find it difficult coming to terms with the imminent loss of a family member or close friend.”
“On a matter that was just touched on, will the Minister consider reintroducing ring-fencing in areas of high demand for social housing?”
“How does the Minister intend to address the backlog in the Appeals Service?”
“Will the Minister advise whether any progress has been made on the apology, as recommended by Judge Hart?”
“I remember the scheme back then, and I believe that it was brought in under housing-led regeneration, which had a particular focus. If you look at Belfast then the five areas that were chosen for it were five unionist areas, and there were very few resources pointed towards nationalist areas. Those were the facts of life for the scheme back then.”
“When we do, we will need to work together to provide decent housing. We have a Minister for Communities who is deeply committed to tackling the housing issue, especially the provision of modern housing for all people in need. I ask that you support the amendment.”
“She has spoken of her commitment to start to deal with the tangled web that makes up housing and to put a strategy in place that deals with the many problems that we face. I have no doubt that she will look at the motion and do her best to deal with the matter. <BR /> <BR />Again, I emphasise that this cannot be done in isolation from all other aspects of housing. I argue that our amendment offers the best way forward and ask those who tabled the motion to reconsider it and allow the amendment to have the unanimous support of the Chamber. Let this be part of an overall strategy that will ensure that all future decisions on housing developments and allocations are based on objective need. <BR /> <BR />A chairde, we are in difficult times, but I have no doubt that we will work our way through this.”
“All those will have, as part of their proposition, housing growth over the next 10 to 20 years. Councils need to be convinced that the LOTS scheme will provide the type of housing that will make a difference to their area. <BR /> <BR />Those who table the motion need to work with local government to ensure that all aspects of dereliction are dealt with, including how to deal with the dereliction of town centres, especially shops and wasteland that have lain vacant for many years. I again emphasise that that should be part of a strategy, not just a scheme chosen in isolation from a housing strategy. Those who tabled the motion know that housing in all its aspects is right up there for the Minister. She has made a commitment to come in front of the Committee and to cover any issues that we want to raise.”
“<BR /> <BR />I was a member of the old Social Development Committee back then, and, when we looked at the town centre regeneration strategy, we realised early on that housing was crucial to the future of towns and villages. The strategies offered hope, and people were disappointed that they never materialised. Strategies for the future of towns and villages can work only with other sectors, especially local government. In fact, today many councils are actively working on the development of major proposals, major shape-changing schemes that will change our communities for the better and include business, sport, environment, housing and much more. City deals take in council areas surrounding and including Belfast. Derry and councils in the north-west have their own city deals, as do other councils that are working on growth deals.”
“I have looked through the research papers, many of which are based on English schemes that were heavily funded. However, the paper provided by Public and Corporate Economic Consultants, who, working back then for the Department for Communities, issued a report in September 2016, stated that Belfast was identified as an area with significant challenges regarding its non-dependent domestic vacancies and that the scheme was likely to work only in areas outside Belfast city centre. In fact, it seems to remove Belfast city centre from any possibility of developing a LOTS housing scheme, especially at a time, only a number of years ago, when there was a campaign in inner-city communities to have housing in all its aspects built in the centre of Belfast.”
“Will rents remain in the ownership of the property owner, will they be handed to the social housing provider to allocate from increasing waiting lists, or will they be purely a private development? One of the papers that we received listed rent charges in the private rented sector throughout the North, but they were old figures. Who will set rents to ensure that they are affordable? Those are just a few thoughts that come to mind.”
“How will areas for development be chosen? How much will the development cost? Who will control the new build? How will the spaces be allocated when completed? Will they be allocated on need? <BR /> <BR />The motion does not lay out the many difficulties that there will be in overcoming the serious problems of access to the proposed homes. Moreover, regional planning policies state that they would need to comply with normal planning and environmental considerations. Facilities for the storage of fuel and refuge, and space for drying clothes, for instance, will be required. What about parking? Planning talks of level access which would be considered in the circumstances of each case. How will rent be set in the new refurbished properties?”
“Again, on the face of it, that proposal seems fine and, of course, we should consider all proposals that come to the table for discussion. However, I wonder if that is the right way to pursue this allocation of housing. We have always believed that any proposal that helps in dealing with the dereliction of the many business premises with empty spaces above those premises needs to be looked at, but it cannot be looked at in isolation. It must be looked at alongside the other serious difficulties faced in the housing sector. <BR /> <BR />The proposers of the motion do not speak of the problems which that area might bring, especially those we saw previously when we pursued the policy of living above the shop. It is about not only the cost, but which areas will benefit from the proposal. Several other thoughts come to mind.”
“On the face of it, that seems to be a good proposal. The motion also states that such space can play an important role in promoting the success of our town centres, and notes that:”
“That is good. Cheann Comhairle, I begin by thanking you and all Members who have sent me kind words during the course of my illness. It was much appreciated. <BR /> <BR />The motion before the House calls on the Minister for Communities to:”
“Has the Minister had any engagement with the British Treasury regarding air passenger duty?”
“It is always interesting to note, when we get into this debate about older people in our community and the difficulties that they have, that there are tested and tried organisations — the likes of Good Morning West Belfast, Good Morning Colin and others — many of which are underfunded, that provide an excellent service to ensure that older people in our communities have some sort of contact on a daily basis. Maybe, in tying in the whole crime thing that you are talking about, that is one of the ways of doing that and making life not only better but safer for older people that we need to look at. Do you agree?”
“The Minister is aware that there are many different narratives around the formation of the Northern state. That difference of experience will extend to the occasion of its centenary. How will the Minister ensure that all perspectives are affirmed, accommodated and acknowledged?”
“Does the Minister agree that there is a need to improve data on public finances in the North?”
“Does the Minister agree that the Member for Lagan Valley has focused on outdated opinion polls that completely distort the opinions of people throughout this country and that the vast majority of opinion polls now point in the other direction, not only to a border poll but to Irish unity?”
“Does the Member agree that added to that are the serious problems that have arisen for many local clubs by the IFA's demand that they have to improve facilities or face going out of the league? Part of what he is talking about needs to be fitted into whatever provision is made.”
“I expect that from you. I did not expect it from Mervyn. <BR /> <BR />Again, when you were Minister, and we were talking and arguing about giving powers back to councils, your party, along with another Member, put forward a proposal that we remove all mentions of need, and that stopped crucial legislating powers going to councils. He can get up —.”
“Just listening to you makes me think that I am in a different place, because I remember when you were Minister and we had debates and arguments about welfare. It was your party that tried to stop welfare reform at the start. It was this party that argued the pace and, as a matter of fact, got close to walking away from this place because of the impact that it would have on people out there. When you talk about the Westminster element, you know quite well that there was a technicality that had to be met. If it had not been met, the thing would not have gone through. The other thing is —.”
“As the Minister is aware, for the past number of years, the community and voluntary sector has had to issue protected notices to its workforce because of uncertainty in budget allocation. Can the Minister assure us that that yearly disaster, which has a huge impact on the community infrastructure, will be dealt with urgently and that her Department will move to a three-year funding cycle as soon as possible?”
“Go raibh maith agat, a Cheann Comhairle. I congratulate you on your elevation to the post of Speaker. I also congratulate the Minister on his reappointment to the post, and I look forward to a meeting at the earliest possible convenience to discuss some concerns that I have. <BR /> <BR />The statement is welcome, especially where it mentions St Paul's Primary School in Mica Drive. In its own way, it is a unique school, with over 25% of the pupils coming from the rich cultural and ethnic backgrounds that exist in the area. That enhances everybody's education in the area. I know that the Minister is being pressed to give timelines and dates, but is it possible that he could ask someone in the Department to correspond with me on a timeline for work to begin on that school?”
“I am glad you raised the point about the 9,600 houses, which are essential to try to deal with the long waiting list, but we need to be adventurous in what we look at in housing and houses that are being built. Recently, I saw an item on TV about a number of factories opening in England that make pre-packed houses that have the highest energy standards, are well built and put together and could provide an alternative at half the price of a normal house.”
“The Housing Executive sits today with roughly 88,000 houses in its stock. Many of those are 20 years old, and some are far older. The point is well made by the Member; often, when we speak about housing, we forget about the serious problems in rural areas.”
“If people looked into the flats and decided they were surplus to requirements, where would they put the tenants? West Belfast has the longest waiting list in the North, with over 4,000 people looking to be housed. What would they do with the tenants in the other blocks who wished to remain in their locality, which is often the case? Have they properties to move them to? The decision taken by the Housing Executive board to not proceed with investment in Divis Tower has condemned tenants to live in a never-ending nightmare. The replacement of windows and heating systems along with proper insulation could transform those flats and the life of those who live there.”
“There were a number of attempts in the past; the repairs carried out at that time did nothing to remedy the problems that exist. It is poor heating, no insulation and a serious problem with dampness.”
“I understand that Divis Tower was included. What did the board do? It fudged the matter by putting any decision back a number of months. Tenants in tower blocks were waiting on good news at Christmas. Instead, they got a slap in the face. <BR /> <BR />The board is looking at removing all tower blocks over a period of time because it says that they are not financially viable and so should be demolished. It has missed the fact that we are dealing with people and their living conditions, not a strategy. Any demolition could take over 25 years to unfold. It would take that length of time before they get to Divis Tower. It did not look at the chronic problems faced by tenants. It did not discuss how tenants felt or whether it would be in a position to house people from Divis or any other tower block. In fact, people are happy living in Divis —”
“They are well-kept by the tenants, but the complaints are the same: the lack of insulation makes them a cold house to live in. It is a place where tenants sit wearing heavy coats while watching TV. Of course, those are not the only flats that suffer those problems; I am sure that many in the House see the same conditions in their own areas. The Minister looked at those conditions and spoke to tenants. I thank him for his visit. I believe that he had a great deal of sympathy for the plight of tenants. <BR /> <BR />The Housing Executive board, which met several weeks later, had on its agenda for that meeting a decision on the strategy for the future of all tower blocks, which included options that would see the demolition of those that it wanted rid of. Also included was investment in those blocks of flats that needed immediate investment.”
“<BR /> <BR />In recent times, people living in relatively new homes are suffering the consequences of poor insulation. I think of people who live in Lagmore, where contractors did not adequately insulate the homes. There is an onus on the Housing Executive, which had those homes constructed, to pursue those who made the mess. If that is not possible, there is a duty on the housing provider to put right that problem. <BR /> <BR />Insulation is non-existent in many tower blocks. People in the flats are living in freezing and damp conditions. The only advice that they are given, as you said, is to leave their windows open. Several months ago, the Minister for Communities visited Divis Tower. He saw the flats for himself.”
“Although I support the motion, I am sorry that it does not include the thousands of people who own their home but, because of their financial circumstances, cannot afford to insulate or upgrade it. <BR /> <BR />I understand that, some years ago, when the SDLP had the Ministry, it removed a number of grant options that allowed grants for people to renovate and upgrade their properties, which would have included heating, new windows and the upgrade of the fabric of their homes. That ill-thought-out decision by the SDLP Minister at that time has ensured that people, some of whom are the most vulnerable in our community at present, see their homes continuing to deteriorate. It is quite likely that they will be the slums of the future, thus costing more to put right in the end.”
“I understand that a lot of this stuff is based on Savills, but, if my memory serves me right, back in 2007 or 2008, Savills came in again and was heavily critical of the Housing Executive for what it called over-maintaining homes. It brought them up to the decent homes standard-plus. After that, there was a reduction in the level of maintenance that it carried out in homes. The issue has its genesis back in 2008. I always thought that that was a foolish decision that was made at the same time. We cannot over-maintain our houses; the better they are, the better for the tenants who live there. <BR /> <BR />Cavity insulation, and all insulation, is crucial to maintaining the fabric of any home and the well-being of those who live there.”
“I accept that, through the whole debate on welfare reform, you, like our party, were to the fore in trying to push us through as quickly as possible to protect people. People constantly refer to these four years, but my understanding is that one Assembly cannot commit another Assembly to a package, and there was always a built-in review that allows you to pick it up so the thing could be continued. Do you accept that?”
“It was not that long ago, when the second element of welfare reform was coming in front of the House, that a DUP Minister at a meeting in Belfast stood up and said that he could not expect us to be treated any differently from the people in Manchester, London or Liverpool. He was talking about that in relation to the mitigation measures and the bedroom tax.”
“I understand what you are saying about the 120,000 houses that may have been under Housing Executive control, but would it be safe to say that if there are close to 9,000 houses a year that are available for relet, either to people who are homeless or others who are on the waiting list, and if you sold off over half your housing stock, that would seriously increase the number of houses available for relet? Selling off your stock impacts on the numbers of people who can be rehoused or considered for rehousing.”
“It is happening in Wales at present. They are having a graduated approach. They have reduced the incentive and they are saying that they will move to abolish it. In Scotland, they took a decision in 2014 but it only came into force at the end of July 2016. <BR /> <BR />The other point that I want to make is that, whilst we rely on social new builds coming through, the biggest supplier of social housing at the minute is through relets. The more houses you sell off, the fewer relets you will have left to allocate.”
“I understand what you are saying, and I respect your position, but, in 2014, your sister party, the Liberal Democrats, realised the damage that was being done to the social housing stock by the house sales scheme and pushed for its suspension as a way in which to protect what is left of the social housing sector.”
“If we can get an agreement to move forward by speaking to everybody involved in the broad housing family, then we will send out that message. It is the right thing to do and it is the best way to develop the protection of social housing for future generations.”
“Housing associations are building to meet ambitious targets at present for new social homes, and they say that it is counterproductive to mandate the sale of homes at substantial discounts. It went on to say that the house sales scheme is increasingly ineffective in delivering home ownership. Other interventions, such as co-ownership, have proven more successful in recent years. Other voluntary housing groups believe that the scheme should be suspended. I have spoken to individual Members who said that whilst they support the right to buy, they see the merits of suspending the scheme because of dwindling supplies. <BR /> <BR />I appeal to the House to support this motion and send out a clear message that we want to protect what is left of the social housing stock for future generations. That is where it lies.”
“It has a big impact, and, in the Assembly, we have seen the different political parties that held Social Development over the past number of years make it easier for people to acquire their house by increasing the incentive and the ways that they could staircase onto the property market. People were not told that once they went down that road, they were responsible for all repairs, and many people had no idea about that and ended up losing their home as a result. <BR /> <BR />I will try to bring my contribution to a conclusion. I was reading a briefing paper from NIFHA, which was provided to everybody here, and it said that the house sales scheme has reduced the capacity of the social rented sector to provide accommodation for those in housing stress.”
“I thank the Member for that, but, when you consider that, at one stage, there might have been 220,000 social houses, you are looking at the loss of 120,000 over that period. I know the respect that the Member had for the architect of this — Margaret Thatcher — at the time. Over that period, we have lost well over half the social housing stock that was available. <BR /> <BR />Whilst there is a dependence on new build, the big dependence is on relets. The more you sell off, the less likelihood there will be for those relets to come through. There is a need to suspend and review the scheme. If Scotland and Wales have shown that they are willing to protect their social housing, it is not much to ask that we go down the same route.”
“It makes sense that we should begin that process, because it will send out all the right messages.”
“<BR /> <BR />All housing experts agree that the house sales scheme is wrong and has outlived it usefulness. Many thought it was useful. They would say that we need to be protective in investing in our stock for future generations. That is the road that Scotland has gone down. Some say that over 300,000 houses were sold off, but, by 2014, they realised that they were in danger of losing what was left of their social housing stock, and the Scottish Parliament passed legislation that reduced the incentive and set a date for right-to-buy to end, which was enacted on 31 July 2016. The Welsh Government were concerned about the demise of their social housing stock. They moved in the first instance to halve the incentive available to tenants, this ahead of abolishing the scheme before the end of their mandate.”
“However, the main source for social housing is allocating from within the existing social housing stock. These are people who have given up their tenancies for a number of reasons or people who have passed away. In 2004-05, there were 8,766 allocations and 3,384 transfers — a total of 13,042. In 2014-15, there were 8,129 allocations and 2,763 transfers — a total of 10,892 transactions. Some of those came from the new build that was provided. However, it also shows how dependent social housing providers are on relets becoming available and then being allocated. There is no doubt that the house sales scheme has impacted directly on the number of relets becoming available. If we continue to sell off our housing stock and there is an upturn in sales, we are looking at the total erosion of the social housing stock in a generation.”
“<BR /> <BR />If you look at the figures over the past 10 years, you see that they remain stubbornly high. We have constantly debated the issue in the Chamber to try to make sense of the persistently high numbers of people who make up the waiting lists, and we come to the same conclusion, which is the need to build more social housing. That is correct, but the reality is that we are not spending enough to provide the number of houses required to have an impact on the waiting lists. <BR /> <BR />Whilst new build provides a safety valve, it is not the only aspect of supply that housing providers depend on. When a new estate comes up for allocation, they will take people directly from the waiting list, but they will also allocate to transfers, which will allow them to get two for one.”
“How many of those who lost their home have ended up in hostels for the homeless requiring a social house or in the private rented sector? No doubt, the number is well into the thousands. <BR /> <BR />I have spoken to many people over the past year who curse the day they ever bought their social house. Not only have they lost their home but they are now in debt for a lifetime because they were encouraged to borrow to renovate and repair. I was looking at figures, a few days ago, that told me that, in 2004-05, 17,000 people presented as homeless. In 2006-07, that had risen to just over 20,000, and, in 2014-15, 19,621 presented as homeless. Of course, there are many reasons why people take the step of presenting as homeless. The common thread is their need for somewhere to live.”