Fra McCann
West Belfast · Sinn Féin · Northern Ireland
“I want to thank everyone for the help that they have given me over the years, which has made my time here a lot easier. I also thank Assembly Members for the friendship, help and assistance that they have given me, from right across the Assembly Floor. I would love to say that I will miss everybody here; I probably will at times.”
“Go raibh míle maith agat, a LeasCheann Comhairle. <BR /> <BR />It was interesting to listen to Robbie, who has first-hand experience of what firefighters go through. To have someone like that speaking in the debate is invaluable.”
“The statistics tell us, as Members have said, that firefighters are four times more likely to develop cancer due to their regular exposure to pollutants in the work that they do on behalf of society. Further preventative measures are obviously needed, and that is what the Sinn Féin amendment addresses.”
“<BR /> <BR />The Assembly needs to send a message that that is not an acceptable way to treat front-line workers who put their lives on the line day and daily.”
“Better decontamination measures and modern, accessible facilities will improve the working lives of firefighters and help to reduce their risk of cancer and other illnesses. <BR /> <BR />I thank the DUP for bringing the motion to the Assembly, and, in conclusion, the Sinn Féin amendment strengthens what is a good motion.”
“I would have thought that such organisations, which play a vital role in local government, would have been able to tap into the consultation on the Bill, because it has been debated widely not only at Committee but in the Chamber.”
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“I think that the Minister has partially answered the question that I was going to ask. Does he foresee a time when a rail link to Belfast International Airport will become viable?”
“Its 88,000 houses could be used as a huge resource and could go a long way towards making an impact on the serious need that exists; but that can only be done if the commitment exists to make it happen. We all have to ensure that that commitment is there. <BR /> <BR />At some stage, we need to look at the warnings that are coming down the line. Things do not get easier for people, waiting lists are rising, and homelessness is a serious problem. Unless we start to tackle that, along with a number of other issues, we have lost the plot.”
“In some areas in my constituency, things are so bad that there is a waiting list to get into hostels, which is impacting on the mental and physical well-being of people. Not having a home impacts on education and employment and upsets family life. <BR /> <BR />If we are ever to move on as a society, we need to look after those who are most in need. Housing is one of the issues that needs to be tackled, and that can be done only by an injection of financial resources. Those resources have to be directed to where the problems exist and have to be allocated on the basis of need. To manage that, housing providers need to be encouraged to tap into other resources to build houses. We need to get the Housing Executive back to building houses.”
“The pressure continues to build on people who are on waiting lists, many of whom have languished in hostels for the homeless, some for as long as three or four years. I was speaking to young parents recently. The child of one young mother was born just before she moved into a hostel. Four years later, that young family is still in a hostel, though the child has started primary school. This is a terrible situation and an indictment of a system which has failed people. <BR /> <BR />The case I speak of is not an isolated one. In areas of high demand, such as Derry, north Belfast and west Belfast, waiting lists continue to grow. In many cases, families are living in overcrowded conditions under the same roof, a situation which is a throwback to the 1950s. In my constituency, 200 points would not get you a house.”
“In fact, at the end of the last mandate, there were as many affordable houses acquired as social houses built. That imbalance did not take into consideration the relatively small number of applications for affordable houses. Co-ownership is estimated to be less than 1,000, but there are social housing waiting lists of 40,000 people, 20,000 of whom are in housing stress.”
“The reason there is a bottleneck is that everybody is going into Belfast to work. The constituency that I live in and others in Belfast have huge deprivation and high unemployment. They would be only too glad to take up the jobs of some of the constituents she talks about. <BR /> <BR />I will go on to what I was going to say; I have no doubt that I will pick up on that again. I welcome the opportunity to speak in the Budget debate today. As in many other years, I urge the Finance Minister to prioritise funding for social housing. Year after year, we have been informed that we were reaching the Programme for Government figure for social housing provision. However, as I kept reminding people, the PFG figure was a minimal figure; it in no way allowed housing providers to keep pace with the growing waiting lists.”
“I welcome the opportunity to speak here today. I was going to be very brief, but — I said this at a Committee meeting last week — I cannot let the comments of Jenny Palmer pass without comment. It seems that she is against road-building everywhere except in her constituency. She does not want it in Narrow Water because she does not know where it is. She is trying to deny people west of the Bann a motorway that they have cried out for for years; she called it "gold-plated". She said that she supports the rapid transport, but I think that, last week, she wanted part of it to run through her constituency, which would have cost an extra fortune, all because of the bottleneck at Sprucefield. I had to remind people at the Committee last week that there is a bit of an anti-Belfast attitude.”
“I also wish the Minister well in his new post. Can he tell me how the Housing Executive and other housing providers will have the necessary budget to ensure that adaptations for tenants with disabilities are provided?”
“<BR /> <BR />One of the things I would like to say is that there have been, in the past, a number of attempts to try to bring in legislation that would bring some controls over the sector. They have not added up to much. I believe we may have a piece of legislation here that will go along that way. Like Alex, I was concerned that we did not get into the nitty-gritty of looking at where the number of houses of multiple occupation could be controlled in streets and areas. We have seen in our own communities where not only HMOs but the private rented sector has tipped the balance in removing the residential nature of communities. <BR /> <BR />I hope that the legislation goes a long way to help that and that whoever comes back in the next mandate can review it and add to what can be a strengthened Bill to help people in the future.”
“Go raibh míle maith agat, a LeasCheann Comhairle. I will start by wishing you well, especially as this is your last event in the Assembly. I believe I have got to know you well over a number of years. At different times, you have given me some good advice on how to behave within the Chamber. I wish you well for the future. <BR /> <BR />This has been like a love-in all day. I thank the Minister for bringing this legislation to the House. It is an important piece of legislation. I believe that, in my time here dealing with legislation of this type, this has probably been one of the better pieces that has gone through the Committee, especially because of the way that the Department so readily worked with the Committee to take on board many of its concerns and those of the people who came in front of the Committee to make theirs known.”
“Go raibh maith agat, a LeasCheann Comhairle. Has the Minister met the expert panel on welfare? Is the panel content that the mitigation measures will help to protect those most in need?”
“The tale will be told by the people out there who will get the additional help that the regulations will ensure that they get.”
“<BR /> <BR />Maybe Dolores, who has just left, was at the meeting — maybe she was not, as she was not at that many — when Eileen Evason of the panel said that the bedroom tax was finished. I take it for granted that what those experts said — those experts who were brought in to look at how we can mitigate effectively the worst excesses of welfare reform — sent us a clear message that, although they might not have been fully happy, because they would have liked more money, they were introducing mitigations, within the confines of the money available, that would work for people and give them some help to overcome those worst excesses. <BR /> <BR />We obviously need to get the regulations through, as we need to ensure that people get the benefits.”
“We are here to talk about a statutory rule, but in discussions, and even in what they said today, they did not offer a proposal that would bring one pound extra into people's benefits. As a matter of fact, during all the discussions that took place, they were the complete opposite. It is easy to stand up in here and say that you put forward amendments and proposals, but the time to do that was when the discussions were going on between the political parties. <BR /> <BR />What we are talking about today is freeing up money to allow people to get the additional mitigations. I would have liked the House to be unanimous in that decision so that people could understand what a panel of experts has put together.”
“Thanks, Adrian. <BR /> <BR />I am someone who, since coming into the Assembly, has argued against the introduction of welfare cuts not only in this place but in many public meetings. That is despite the fact that members of the party that just spoke were behind the first introduction of welfare reform in this Building, which included ATOS coming in to oversee the assessments and the sanctions against the tens of thousands of people who have been penalised because of infringements on benefit, as they see it.”
“I will try to be brief on this. I am someone who, from the very outset —”
“Go raibh maith agat, a Cheann Comhairle. I thank the Minister for his statement. There has been a bit of shadow-boxing going on over the past four years over the future structures for social housing. I hope that today's statement lays out the needs and concerns for any new Assembly. <BR /> <BR />One of the issues that the Minister touched on was the Housing Executive stock, which is 88,000. That number continues to dwindle and needs to be protected. Will the Minister consider asking for a suspension of the house sale schemes as a way of protecting the 88,000 until such a time as we get back on track with providing enough housing for people?”
“I hope that they do not end up on the shelf when the new Assembly sits but become the guide for good practice. If we fail to grasp that nettle now, we will do a disservice to those with learning difficulties and their families, who look to us as legislators to make the laws that will make life much better for a wide range of vulnerable people.”
“<BR /> <BR />On recommendation 11, the Committee recommends that further education colleges develop a more strategic approach to building relationships and partnerships with social firms to help to develop courses and work experience opportunities to assist the transition from classroom into work. The Committee also recommended that further education colleges and training providers should take into consideration the local labour market and possible avenues for employment when developing courses. <BR /> <BR />That finishes my element of the report, but I would like to add that we have an opportunity here. Through the recommendations, we can make a difference to the lives of the most vulnerable in our society, their families and those who work with them.”
“In recommendation 8, the Committee recommends that the Department for Employment and Learning's funding process, for all its service providers, should support courses and training that provide life skills for young people with learning disabilities. The Committee also recommended that the Department for Employment and Learning, as part of its employment strategy for people with disabilities, review its programmes, with a view to making them more transparent and applicable for those with learning difficulties, including those with complex and high support needs. <BR /> <BR />On recommendation 10, the Committee recommends that the Department for Employment and Learning increase the number of training and employment opportunities available to those with learning difficulties by improving its support, training and incentives for employers.”
“Others believed that the process hampered the smooth transition from children's to adult services and left many parents and teachers alike concerned that a process that was supposed to be beneficial and deal with moving from one system to another had broken down in a number of cases. <BR /> <BR />As the Chair said, the Committee, for the purposes of getting through the recommendations, allocated different sections of the report to each member. I was allocated the section under the heading "Progression", which begins at recommendation 7. The Committee recommends that there be a review by the Department of Education and the Department for Employment and Learning to ensure that college courses below level 1 are adequately funded.”
“We also spoke to people, who, in different community settings, work in under-resourced circumstances but, in the end, make the most of their circumstances to provide excellent services. <BR /> <BR />We spoke to parents who explained how difficult it is for them working within the present system, especially in the process of transition for children moving to adult services, which they believe has let them down in many ways. Some believed that the transition at 18 may not suit everyone. Some felt that remaining in the system their loved ones had grown up with and become used to might offer the best solution for them. Some argued that 25 might be the age to transition, certainly for some people, if not for everyone.”
“The decision to begin an inquiry into post-19 special educational needs provision probably had its beginnings in another inquiry, during which it was highlighted in the presentations we received the injustice that exists out there towards citizens with varying degrees of learning difficulty. <BR /> <BR />Whilst on that journey, we had the privilege to speak to teachers, classroom assistants, principals of schools, parents, children and young adults. We learned that a huge amount of good practice exists out there. In schools, we witnessed the dedication and commitment shown by educators and families alike. We saw some great practice in operation during the many visits that we undertook.”
“<BR /> <BR />The purpose of the inquiry was to highlight the many difficulties there are for young people with learning difficulties and to make a series of recommendation that we believe would make life better for them, their families and those with responsibility for the provision of services. The 44 recommendations, if accepted, could, we believe, offer a road map and new beginning in the provision of post-19 education, training and employment. I add that this has been a journey for me personally and that there has been a major learning curve along the way.”
“Go raibh maith agat, a LeasCheann Comhairle. I will speak on the Committee report into special educational needs provision in education, employment and training for those in our society with learning difficulties. I thank the Committee staff, who have done an excellent job in organising and pulling together all the information collected along the way, and all those who gave evidence and hosted our many visits. I echo what Anna said about the leadership shown by the Chair of the Committee, who guided us through every level of it, with the help of the Committee staff. That not only made the inquiry worthwhile but in many ways allowed us to get all the information that we needed.”
“Go raibh maith agat, a LeasCheann Comhairle. Does the Minister accept that the change will enable people in work to avail themselves of part-time courses to enhance their skills and qualifications?”
“No matter where you go, whether it is when canvassing or when you bump into people, one of the big concerns that people tell you about relates to how you deal with antisocial behaviour. Whilst the Bill may not deal entirely with antisocial behaviour, there are built-in mechanisms that may allow tenants to go to landlords and expect a return by way of them dealing with the problem. <BR /> <BR />Sinn Féin obviously supports the Bill. We support the amendments, but we look forward to additional information and an additional Bill coming so that everything will be tightened up and life made easier for tenants and, at the end of the day, landlords.”
“The other issue that came across was the terms of the letting agencies and letting agents, and that came through, at times, during the questioning of people who came to the Committee to give evidence and the Department. I believe that this should encompass everybody, but it was explained to us that there may be letting agents whose only contact is the first month's rent and, after that, they have no control. <BR /> <BR />I had a concern, which I raised with the Department, in and around the private rented sector, because I had viewed them as two sides of the one coin: one may provide multiple lettings, but the other provides single lettings. In the past, both have led to the destruction of the residential nature of many communities in this city because of over-provision. I believe that both should have been tackled at the same time.”
“I happen to believe that we could have dealt with a lot of this back then, but we adopted a light-touch approach when there should have been a more robust effort to try to tackle and deal with HMOs, as there has been with this Bill. I know of many communities, not only in this city but in other parts of the North, that have suffered as a result of mismanagement, poor conditions and being unable to get in touch with landlords. <BR /> <BR />I went through a number of the amendments, and some jumped out at me. The question of a fit-and-proper-person test is essential in trying to get to terms with some of the difficult problems that exist. The explanatory notes give a fairly detailed rundown on what would be expected or the types of people who would not be fit to be a landlord.”
“Go raibh maith agat, a Cheann Comhairle. I also thank the former Minister and the current Minister for the work that they have done with the Department to bring the Bill to the House today. You will be happy to hear that I had a long-winded, drawn-out speech, but Alex threatened me at the start of the process and said, "Look. Just keep it as short as possible". <BR /> <BR />Legislation on houses in multiple occupation has been brought to the Assembly a number of times over the past number of years. It is a live issue out there. I think that many people have had concerns about the management, running and conditions that exist in such properties.”
“You may have a point. We have had discussions on this in Committee, and the Minister has been before us and put across his position. However, two weeks ago, when Phil brought amendments to the House, there were reasons why people would not support them, so he tried to table amendments that would gain the support of other parties. It seems that, no matter what he tries to do to get legislation that will protect workers, it is not enough for the rest of the Members.”
“Again, I understand what you say, but we are not only trying to create the thing. I know what the Minister said, but the likes of Belfast City Council took a decision on the living wage. Having had the discussion here today, we should be able to move that forward and encourage and advise other councils and statutory authorities to move to a position of paying a fair wage for a fair day's work.”
“I understand the list of issues you have raised, but I think that the point my colleague made was that, whilst we may not have any power over this at the moment, that does not stop us sending out a clear message to people on low pay that the Assembly stands shoulder to shoulder with them, recognising that the wage they earn is not enough for them to meet their weekly needs. He said that we had some power and influence over Departments, statutory authorities and councils to ask them to initiate the step of having a living wage, in preparation, hopefully, for us getting some power to deal with that.”
“Just on the living wage, do you not think that we should aspire to ensure that all low earners are paid a reasonable wage that allows them to feed and clothe their families and that, unless we have that in legislation, we will never move the argument on?”
“I thank the Member for giving way. I understand what you are saying in terms of emigration. Going back to the days when you were in the Chair of the Committee for Employment and Learning, that was something we discussed widely. Are you now saying that we should be looking at zero-hours contract, agency and other jobs to try to keep people from emigrating?”
“Go raibh maith agat, a LeasCheann Comhairle. I thank the Minister for his answer to date. Employer-led apprenticeships were discussed at the Committee over a lengthy period. I raised some concerns. Whilst it is a good scheme, quite a number of people who would fit in the NEETs strategy would find it difficult to take part in it. How do you ensure that it does not move on and that those people are not left behind? I think that those are the types of people that Robin might have been talking about also.”
“The point that you are making is important. I accept that the Minister has said that he is leaving room for changes down the line, but who is to say who will be back here in the near future and whether they will hold to the promises that are being made by the present Minister? When we discussed this, one of the things that we were concerned about was the fact that there are many people who, by the very fact that they will have to pay the deposits, will shy away from taking a case. Justice is being denied to people who wish to go down that road.”
“I thank the Minister for his response, but does he not also accept that a new approach is required to build positive alliances between business organisations, employer organisations, the trade union movement and civic stakeholders, among others, to help to shape an economic and social policy and strategy to bring more jobs to the region?”
“I thank the First Minister for her response. We all know the excellent work that is done by the community and voluntary sector. Much of it could be life-saving in areas of high deprivation. Are you confident that the action plans that are now being discussed will help and that we will see those sectors coming out the other end of the cuts that are taking place?”
“Go raibh maith agat, a Cheann Comhairle. I also join Members in congratulating the First Minister on her elevation. I wish her well in her job.”
“No amount of going to further education colleges would have enticed them back into a system that has now given them a life.”
“I understand what you say. There was an increase in funding, but there was a growing belief, especially in the women's sector and the alternative education sector, that they had fallen foul of new rules and regulations and that those who had the wherewithal to put together professional enough applications came through in the end. That happened in the mid-80s. I know that you talked about the structure of community education, and I was on the committee of one of the first alternative education projects in Belfast, in Divis Flats, that allowed young people to come through who had left or opted out of the formal education process. In Conway Mill, people who are teachers, lecturers and in high-paid jobs have said that they faced a life on the streets except for that alternative.”
“I thank the Member for giving way and for bringing the subject to the Floor. The Minister knows that we have raised the subject of funding cuts a number of times. Quite a number of groups, including Newstart, firmly believe that the funding cuts and the redirection of funding from community-based education to the third sector are having a detrimental effect on them. Somebody needs to explain to them why the courses and alternative education projects that they provide for the most vulnerable are being excluded, as far as they are concerned, from providing the education that is required to allow people to develop.”
“Go raibh maith agat, Cheann Comhairle. I thank the junior Minister for her answers thus far. Can the Minister clarify what is meant by "sustainability" in respect of the childcare strategy?”
“It is only when we bring this in that we can start to deal with what has been a serious problem for many years.”
“Whilst we are about to decide that percentages of HMOs can fit into other areas, they may have already been oversaturated by the private rented sector in that area. That needs to be taken into consideration in the loop. <BR /> <BR />I believe that the licensing of this accommodation will prove useful. The Minister said that 5,300 have registered, but there could be up to 30,000. I remember one of the gurus in the Housing Executive of HMOs said a number of years ago that, within that 30,000, many elements of the accommodation are poor. They are overcrowded and are difficult for the people who live there. They turn to us to look at providing legislation that can end that. Not only robust legislation but robust enforcement needs to be part of the Bill.”
“<BR /> <BR />At every stage that the Houses in Multiple Occupation Bill has come to the Assembly, we have argued that there should be robust legislation. The failure to implement robust legislation means that you have to continuously go back to the issue, and that creates difficulties. <BR /> <BR />There are huge communities — I know that Adrian raised it at the Committee a while ago — in his area and in other areas like Belfast where we have seen steady changes in the residential nature of many communities, and we need to protect them. I raised a question at last week's meeting, and, at some stage, we need to take on board the fact that the HMOs are another arm of the private rental sector, and we need to look at that in totality.”
“The Committee will undoubtedly come back to this issue in due course. <BR /> <BR />As I said, the Committee is content with the principles of the Bill. Some of the issues we already raised with the Department have, broadly speaking, been taken on board by the Minister. There are other issues in the Bill that the Committee must content itself with, and we continue to work with the Department and departmental officials to do that. However, for the purposes of today’s proceedings, the Committee is content to support the Bill at Second Stage. <BR /> <BR />I want to say a couple of words from a party point of view. First, I welcome the Minister saying that he has considered a number of issues and will make a number of amendments to the Bill.”
“<BR /> <BR />The Committee notes that transferring the responsibility for regulating HMOs to local councils should facilitate joined-up working with planning, as well as building control and environmental health. The Committee will wish to be satisfied that sufficient support is given to local councils to ensure that that joined-up working is in fact realised and that relevant agencies and Departments do not work in silos. <BR /> <BR />As acknowledged by the Department, councils will require time and support to prepare for the administration of the new licensing scheme before the main provisions of the Bill come into operation. In that regard, there is a responsibility to provide councils with as much support as possible to facilitate the effective transfer of the proposed new regulatory responsibilities.”
“However, to residents who live close to such buildings and who see their streets or areas full of houses that have been converted to HMOs, it makes no sense at all. They see only the outworking of the legislation that can redefine the demographics of areas such as the Holylands in Belfast. <BR /> <BR />In making this legislation, we have to be mindful not only of its limitations but of its potential impact. We must have a cross-departmental approach to the issue to develop a vision for the planning for and regulation of HMOs. In all cases, we must ensure that, where there is an increase in HMO accommodation in residential areas, those are managed to a high standard and that the lines of responsibility and, more importantly, accountability are clear.”