Michelle McIlveen
Strangford · Democratic Unionist Party · Northern Ireland
“Public confidence depends not only on effective enforcement but on enforcement being exercised fairly and consistently. <BR /> <BR />There is widespread concern across Northern Ireland about the condition of many of our lakes and rivers, and there are a vast number of factors that contribute to water quality challenges.”
“Although we support the overall direction of travel, I think that is appropriate to reflect on the concerns that have been raised and ensure that the legislation is proportionate, practical and capable of delivering its intended outcomes.”
“If we are therefore serious about improving our aquatic environment, every source of pollution must be addressed. New legislative powers are meaningful only if the Department has the resources, the expertise and the personnel necessary to implement them effectively.”
“There is, however, a need for accompanying clear guidance and support and for regulatory consistency and prompt decision-making. Delays, uncertainty and excessive bureaucracy will undoubtedly discourage investment and undermine confidence in the sector.”
“Subordinate legislation should not become a substitute for proper democratic accountability. Consultation and engagement must be undertaken before regulations are introduced, and I cannot overstate the need for stakeholder engagement. <BR /> <BR />I will now talk about the Bill's proposed enforcement powers.”
“The DUP broadly welcomes the Bill. As has been said, it provides an opportunity to modernise legislation that, in some areas, has remained largely unchanged for decades. The Bill strengthens the protection of our fisheries, improves the regulatory framework for aquaculture and enhances the management of our water environment.”
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“I thank the Member for his intervention. He will be aware that I have rehearsed that point many times in the Chamber. <BR /> <BR />That impact on staffing is one example of the knock-on effects of suppressed resources. In considering that disparity, the Committee supports the Department's call for an increase in resource moneys. The Committee has called on the Department to think creatively about how to draw down funds into a range of its ongoing funding schemes and to urge it to get road maintenance schemes up and running quickly to take advantage of those. The Department assured the Committee that it is looking at contingency measures to ensure that it can spend out its budget in case any big spending projects are delayed. The Committee accepts, however, that that takes an adequate resource budget.”
“The impact of the lack of staffing resource was rehearsed in the Chamber last week during a debate on unadopted roads. The Department has only approximately 20 staff to cover that work when, prior to 2015, it had double that number of staff. The result of that lack of staffing resource is an enforced reactive, rather than proactive, approach to enforcement. That is simply unacceptable.”
“The Department estimates that it needs £811·3 million to carry out its functions and that £519·6 million of the budget will be needed for flagship, inescapable or pre-committed expenditure. The Department indicated that that large requirement is due to the expected spend on a number of major projects and the investment requirements for Northern Ireland Water, which were set out in the Utility Regulator's draft determination. <BR /> <BR />During the Committee's scrutiny, members were keen to understand the disparity between the 29% increase in capital and the 2·9% increase in resource. Officials advised that that disparity was a disappointment and meant that the resources in the Department to deliver on an extensive programme of capital projects will be under severe pressure.”
“Officials advised that that would mean that work will have to be prioritised and that the core work of the Department, including public services such as gully cleaning, street lighting outages, grass cutting, bridge repairs and road markings, may not be carried out. <BR /> <BR />The Committee noted that the increase in capital for this financial year is £772·5 million. That is a £164 million, or 29%, uplift from the opening position for the 2020-21 financial year. That represents 40% of the total £1·781 billion that is available to the Executive and is the largest capital budget across all Departments. After conducting an assessment of its capital requirements, however, the Department advised that that does not meet its requirement for capital for this year.”
“As Members are aware, driving tests and MOTs are returning, but the Driver and Vehicle Agency (DVA) will still lose around £5 million this year. DFI Roads and DFI Rivers, Crumlin Road Gaol and the Rathlin ferry will have COVID pressures of £3·8 million, £100,000 and £300,000 respectively, making total COVID pressures of £58·8 million. Officials outlined that the longer that we work from home, the more water is used in residential settings, which does not create income for Northern Ireland Water, and that water usage by businesses, for which it does charge, is reduced. <BR /> <BR />The Committee asked officials to outline what the impact would be to the work of the Department.”
“The Department advised the Committee that that was a disappointing outcome, especially given the fact that other Departments had an average resource increase of over 6%. <BR /> <BR />The Department advised the Committee that its total pressures for 2021-22 will be £88·5 million. That is better than the £103 million resource pressures that it estimated when it briefed the Committee in February. It advised the Committee that it has identified £58·8 million of COVID pressures and £29·7 million of other pressures for next year. When the Committee questioned what the COVID pressures are, departmental officials advised that Translink estimated a pressure of £50 million this year, based on how quickly people will return to public transport. That, in turn, is based on the planned staged recovery from COVID that was produced by the Executive.”
“That excludes EU replacement funding that is to come from the UK Government for the city deals and NDNA funding for low-emission buses. The Department advised the Committee that the resource budget is an increase of £12 million — 2·9% — on the 2020-21 opening allocation. That £12 million uplift will be used exclusively for Northern Ireland Water: £9·2 million for COVID pressures and £2·8 million to, partially, meet its resource pressures and a draft determination by the Utility Regulator to enable it to continue as an essential public service. Taking that into account, the Department advised the Committee that, omitting the £12 million going to Northern Ireland Water, the resource budget has remained stationary and represents a real-term reduction.”
“To that end, the current situation, where there are still unknowns, such as waiting for commitments from the UK Government on city deals, is untenable. <BR /> <BR />The Committee for Infrastructure received a briefing on the draft Budget 2021-22 from Department for Infrastructure officials on 3 February, and there was a further briefing on 21 April. The Committee also requested written briefings from the Department's arm's-length bodies — Translink, the Drainage Council, Waterways Ireland and Northern Ireland Water — on their budget expectations and what they had received. During the briefing on 21 April, departmental officials outlined that the Department had received a final opening resource budget for 2021-22 of £429·9 million and a capital budget of £772·5 million.”
“I welcome the opportunity to outline the Committee for Infrastructure's consideration of and views on the Main Estimates for the 2021-22 Budget, specifically in respect to how it impacts on the Department for Infrastructure and its ability to carry out its responsibilities and functions for the coming year. <BR /> <BR />It is to the Committee's regret that the Budget process continues to be far from satisfactory and falls short of affording Committees the appropriate time to carry out their scrutiny role, albeit I appreciate that we are living through unprecedented times. As one of the largest-spending Departments, the Committee takes its scrutiny of the Department for Infrastructure's budget extremely seriously.”
“It was noted that, even then, it was extremely unlikely that those levels of investment could be acquired from central government. Those fears have proved prophetic, with ongoing budget constraints providing the same concerns today. However, the Committee for Infrastructure, just like the Committee for Regional Development before it, believes that, despite that, actions can and must be identified and taken to rectify the problem and that a coordinated effort by all sectors involved in the process could see major improvement in even the most critical cases.”
“<BR /> <BR />Finally, as well as the unadopted roads that are part of the Private Streets (Northern Ireland) Order process, Members will be aware that a number sit outside that. There is a provision in the order to adopt such sites, but, as with any development, it is a prerequisite that the site be brought up to an adoptable standard before the Department will take it on. To give a sense of scale, 10 years ago, a study identified over 620 kilometres of unadopted roads and laneways sitting outside the Private Streets (Northern Ireland) Order process. The cost of bringing those roads up to a standard sufficient to allow for their adoption would be in the order of £300 million. In addition, somewhere in the range of £41 million and £100 million was identified as being needed to allow for the adoption of sewage and waste water schemes.”
“<BR /> <BR />The Committee acknowledges that much work has been done and is being done successfully despite those constraints. However, the backlog and the legacy sites are of particular concern. Adoption of sites is triggered by occupancy rates, with 80% occupancy being a key trigger. A number of sites have reached that threshold, yet they remain unadopted, many since around the property crash in 2007; indeed, there is a road that was bonded in 1988 that remains unadopted. There are some cases where enforcement cannot be used to guide the works, typically where there are land or access issues. The way forward in those instances is to work with the developers and residents to resolve the outstanding issues, which is less than ideal.”
“It is alarming to hear that the Department has only approximately 20 staff to cover 3,470 live bonds and all the enforcement cases. Prior to 2015, the Department had double that number. The Department has reduced capacity to take enforcement action when a developer has commenced without a bond in place or, at the other end of the process, when they fail to complete the development. The result is an enforced reactive, rather than proactive, approach to enforcement, which is simply unacceptable. In order to get back to a proactive mode and to be better placed to know the number of sites and levels of occupancy, we need to go back to those pre-reduction levels. That is a stark example of how reduced resource budget constraints impact on capacity and how that translates into failings in delivery to the public.”
“The questions that need to be asked are these: could further cross-departmental working practices be set up to make more of an impact, and what is being done to seek further powers to do something about it? The Committee was advised that it has been some time since the last review of bond adequacy. Officials advised that they were working to update previous submissions on bond rates and will shortly bring something to the Minister. However, the Committee believes that that needs to be reviewed as a matter of urgency in order to avoid the need for enforcement and systemic failures, which adversely affect the lives of those in affected developments. <BR /> <BR />That brings me to enforcement action by the Department in cases where the system does not work.”
“The concern in those instances is that, without the inflationary amount, the bond's value lessens the longer it is in place. I, along with others, am aware of cases where the bond can no longer cover the cost of the works required and the developer company has been wound up or cannot meet the obligations. <BR /> <BR />I am also aware that many sites have issues with not just roads but Northern Ireland Water infrastructure. The Committee recognises that and found comfort in the fact that Northern Ireland Water is at least trying proactively to identify high-priority and legacy sites to establish what the problems are at each one. The Department is working with them to get the work moved on and completed. That long-overdue prioritisation audit was also a recommendation of the 2012 report.”
“<BR /> <BR />One of the recommendations made in the 2012 report related to the role of solicitors. The Committee heard that the Department had engaged with the Law Society in 2012 and that, following that, there had been greater awareness amongst solicitors of the importance of a bond being in place before purchasing a property. The adequacy of the bond also needs to be taken into account, however. Two recommendations in the 2012 report dealt with the issue. One suggested the inclusion of an inflationary amount; the other suggested calling in the bond amount earlier in the process to reduce health and safety risks to residents. Neither suggestion has been adequately addressed. <BR /> <BR />The Committee heard that some sites remain unadopted because of sewerage and road issues that the Department has no powers to remediate.”
“In theory, once planning permission is received, the Department works with the developer, the lender and the bond company to progress the adoption of a development's roads in a timely fashion under the Private Streets (Northern Ireland) Order 1980. As part of the planning application consideration, it must be clear that the standards of completion that will be achieved are appropriate. If that is the case, the private street is determined and considered determined. The developer then takes out a bond, and the road is constructed and adopted. It is illegal for a developer to commence works on new developments without having an article 32 agreement and bond in place. They allow the Department to bring any development up to adoption standard should the developer fail to do so for any reason. However, sites remain where no bond exists.”
“That raises the question of how the issue can ever be rectified if the full extent of the problem is not known. <BR /> <BR />Owning a property on an unadopted road is not always a problem. In situations where there are inadequate management arrangements for those roads, however, it can become a serious problem for the property owners. Selling such properties can be difficult because prospective purchasers cannot obtain a mortgage to buy the property and lenders are reluctant to lend money for their purchase. The result, often, is that owners are unable to sell their property, potentially have to reduce the sale price or are limited to selling to cash buyers. <BR /> <BR />The Department manages the adoption of new roads that are determined as part of the planning process. The term "determined" means that a road is:”
“Surely, after almost a decade, we should be far closer to resolving this than, the Committee has found, we are. Nine months after the Minister made his statement, the then Committee for Regional Development published a report of its findings following an inquiry into the matter. <BR /> <BR />The report highlighted the fact that, at the time, there were anything between 1,200 and 3,500 unadopted roads and some 1,200 sewage schemes in backlog and that, critically, Northern Ireland Water and the Department for Regional Development were unable to quantify the precise numbers. At its meeting on 12 May 2021, nearly a decade on, the Committee for Infrastructure found that that was still the case and that the recommendations made in the 2012 report to address the backlog are yet to be fully considered.”
“I have to say at the outset that it is of concern that, almost nine years after the Regional Development Committee presented its findings on unadopted roads to the Assembly, the Committee for Infrastructure feels the need to bring this motion to the Chamber today. I am sure that all of us can give examples of constituents affected by this. While the extent of the issue is by no means as widespread as when questions were first raised, it remains a problem for a large number of householders across Northern Ireland. That this is the case almost nine years after the recommendations of the Regional Development Committee's findings were accepted is, however, alarming. <BR /> <BR />On 7 February 2012, in connection with a debate in this Chamber, the then Minister for Regional Development said:”
“I thank the Minister for his answer, and I welcome the improvement works that she has announced, in particular those for Newtownards courthouse. Can I seek an assurance from the Minister that it is not her intention to rationalise the estate any further, particularly Newtownards courthouse, as her party colleague who previously held the portfolio had suggested, given the need for services such as these in our smaller towns?”
“I thank the Minister for her response. Given the rates of infection here in comparison with those on the mainland, what does the Minister believe to be the rationale for restricting travel across the common travel area?”
“I thank the Minister for her answer. Can she confirm whether any bids were made for funding to mark the centenary? Will she outline what her priorities are for Northern Ireland as we build for its second century?”
“I thank the Minister for his statement. The Department for Infrastructure budget for this year sees a modest 3% increase in resource and an almost 30% increase in capital. That will create a significant pressure, particularly in the delivery of much-needed road maintenance. Will the Minister provide the rationale for the disparity, and can he suggest how he believes the Department will be able to manage such an uplift in capital without a commensurate resource budget?”
“Both will be delighted at the progress of this fantastic group of players under the excellent coaching of Kenny Shiels. <BR /> <BR />What has been achieved by the current team will inspire and encourage other young women and girls to get involved in the sport. As we emerge from an incredibly difficult year, we have all been lifted by what the team has done. <BR /> <BR />I look forward to watching the team when it takes to the pitch in Euro 2022 in England. I hope that the green and white army will have the opportunity to be present and be able to support the team in the only way that it can.”
“I have had the great pleasure of attending many of the team's games over the years, and it was a deep frustration to me that, due to coronavirus restrictions, I was unable to be present for the home play-off game. I was also really annoyed that their families, having supported them throughout their careers, were unable to be there to share in the excitement. <BR /> <BR />I would like to mention Sara Booth, the former international captain and Irish Football Association (IFA) official who is now the FIFA head of competitions in the women's football division. She has done so much to promote the women's game in Northern Ireland. I would also like to mention former women's coach Alfie Wylie, who helped to lay the foundations of the women's game and drive it forward in Northern Ireland.”
“I am delighted that the Assembly is taking time to mark an outstanding achievement for the Northern Ireland women's football team. I do not wish to repeat what was said by Mr Nesbitt but, from being established only 17 years ago to qualifying for the European Championships, the women's team has outstripped all expectations. <BR /> <BR />Anyone who has watched their development over the years, capped off by the two victories over their play-off opponents, Ukraine, will know that that qualification was no fluke. This is a team of wonderfully gifted footballers that has shown its commitment to ladies' football, as demonstrated by Julie Nelson with 116 caps and Ashley Hutton with 111.”
“The Minister will be aware of the challenges that COVID has created for the haulage industry, which has had little to no support. The cessation of testing for drivers has had a further impact. As HGV drivers retire, there is no new pool of drivers to replace them. Will the Minister look at prioritising that important sector?”
“However, given the reality of one-year budgets, there should be forward planning so that the Department can avail itself of additional funds. <BR /> <BR />The Committee had to scrutinise the Department’s finances at pace. That is not appropriate or sustainable. In future, the Committee expects to have more time to consider the budget in detail, to look at more of the figures behind the broad headings and to tease out with officials how money flows around the Department and where our Committee can offer best advice.”
“However, the Committee accepts that that takes an adequate resource budget. <BR /> <BR />To that end, to avoid an underspend in the coming year, the Committee supports an increased resource budget for the Department for Infrastructure to ensure that the resources exist to enable it to manage its capital programme effectively. However, it also recommends that, in the Department itself, there is a more strategic process to ensure that shovel-ready projects are always in place to take the fullest advantage of any future occasions when the Executive find themselves in the position of having an underspend. The Committee does not accept that core aspects of the Department's work should be conditional on excess money during monitoring rounds.”
“Officials advised that such a disparity was a disappointment, which means that the Department's resources to deliver on an extensive programme of capital projects would be under severe pressure as both are inextricably linked. <BR /> <BR />In considering this disparity, the Committee supports the Department’s call for an increase in resource moneys. The Committee has taken many opportunities with the Department and Minister Mallon to emphasise the failure to draw down and utilise the unspent end-of-year finances. The Committee has called on the Department to think creatively and urgently about how to draw down funds into a range of its ongoing funding schemes and has urged it to get road maintenance schemes up and running quickly to take advantage of monitoring rounds.”
“<BR /> <BR />The officials advised the Committee that the estimated capital requirement was higher than in 2020-21 due to several large projects having increased spending in 2021-22. In addition, a draft determination by the Utility Regulator sets the capital requirement for Northern Ireland Water at £222 million. The Department has advised that it requires £562 million simply to meet its existing commitments without any further allocations above its top priorities. Those commitments relate to a number of flagship and inescapable projects and to areas of its business that are contractually pre-committed. <BR /> <BR />In our scrutiny, members were keen to understand the disparity between the increase in capital of 40% and in resource of 0·7%.”
“The officials highlighted that that comes in the wake of a number of years when there was already a limited service in those areas, which is something that we are all very aware of. <BR /> <BR />The Committee for Infrastructure noted that the increase in the capital budget for the coming financial year is £692 million. That is a £135 million, or 40%, uplift on the opening position for the current year. However, the Department has advised that that still does not meet its estimated capital requirement for next year. It estimates that it needs £888 million to carry out its functions and that £562 million of the budget will be needed for flagship, inescapable or pre-committed expenditure.”
“Officials also outlined that, for Northern Ireland Water, the longer people work from home, the more water is used in residential settings, which does not create income for Northern Ireland Water, and the water usage by businesses, which it does charge for, is reduced significantly. <BR /> <BR />The Committee asked the officials to outline what the impact would be on the Department's work. Officials advised that it would mean that work would need to be prioritised and that the Department's core work, which includes public services such as gully cleaning, street lighting outages, grass cutting, bridge repairs and road markings, all of which are visible and impact on the lives of our constituents, may not be carried out.”
“The £2·8 million increase that it has received has been allocated to pressures that have been identified by Northern Ireland Water. <BR /> <BR />The Department advised the Committee that it estimated its total pressures for 2021-22 to be £103 million. It has identified its pressures for next year to be £59 million of COVID pressures, £3·6 million of EU-related pressures and £40·5 million of other pressures. When the Committee questioned what the £103 million that it has sought was for, officials advised that, although the COVID pressure is largely unknown for the coming year, the Department has made the prediction based on research that indicated that it could take several years to get back to a normal level of passenger transport and that that will clearly impact on income.”
“That will help to replenish their depleted reserves and provide a degree of financial resilience as we head into another year in which we can expect further impacts as a consequence of COVID-19. <BR /> <BR />During the briefing on 3 February, the officials outlined that the Department has received a draft resource budget of £420·7 million and a capital budget of £693·2 million, including the £70 million reinvestment and reform initiative (RRI) borrowing. The Department advised the Committee that the resource budget is an increase of £2·8 million, or 0·7%, on the 2020-21 opening allocation. That 0·7% increase in the resource budget is proportionately less than the average resource increase of other Departments, which is over 6%. The Department advised the Committee that that was a disappointing outcome.”
“The Department for Infrastructure also highlighted to Finance that the DVA used £10 million of its reserves in order to supplement lost income as a consequence of COVID-19 and that, unless that was reinstated, future capital investment might be hampered. To that end, the Department has been successful in securing an additional £12 million to address those pressures, which is, indeed, welcome. <BR /> <BR />The Department has also advised that, since the January monitoring round bids were submitted, two further bids were made to the Department of Finance to help to maintain the financial stability of Translink and DVA and that it has received an additional £50 million for Translink and £10 million for DVA.”
“The Department also advised that it had made the Department of Finance aware of some additional COVID pressures in its January monitoring submission. Those were pressures of £1·9 million for lost parking income in Roads and a small amount of PPE costs in the Driver and Vehicle Agency (DVA).”
“This year’s process has not afforded the Committee the time for a more detailed engagement on the budget allocation and the Department’s proposals on how it will best spend its allocation. <BR /> <BR />The Committee for Infrastructure received a briefing from departmental officials on the draft 2021-22 Budget on 3 February 2021. The Committee also requested written briefings from the Department’s arm's-length bodies — Translink, the Drainage Council, Waterways Ireland and Northern Ireland Water — on their expectations for the Budget and their allocations. <BR /> <BR />In considering the January monitoring round, the Department advised the Committee that one resource bid for increased holiday carry-forward was submitted and would be met centrally by the Treasury for the whole of the Civil Service.”
“I welcome the opportunity to outline the Committee for Infrastructure’s consideration and views in today's debate. I would like to quickly outline the Committee’s consideration of the 2020-21 Budget and then move on to how the 2021-22 Budget allocation impacts on the Department for Infrastructure and its ability to carry out its functions over the coming year. <BR /> <BR />The Department for Infrastructure is one of the Northern Ireland Assembly's largest spending Departments, so the Committee for Infrastructure takes its scrutiny of the Department's budget extremely seriously. The Committee, therefore, regrets that because of the circumstances that we find ourselves in and because of the lateness of the Chancellor’s spending review, the process for budget scrutiny this year has been significantly curtailed.”
“I will pass on the Education Committee Chairperson's high praise for the Education Minister, which I am sure he will appreciate; long may it last.”
“As the Minister will be aware, residents of the Ards peninsula use the Strangford ferry as others across Northern Ireland use the bus to go to work. Will she commit to introducing a permanent 7:00 am ferry from Portaferry for workers, many of whom are key workers in the health and social care sector or in construction, who cannot get to work on time at the moment?”
“Like my constituency colleague, I have asked for a review of the speed limit along the A20 Portaferry road, along with the A21, A22 and A23 in the constituency. Despite accidents, none of them has been reduced. Unfortunately, and perhaps unfairly, the Department has a reputation for not wanting to act until there is a fatality. Minister, is it not time to review the national speed limits, with a particular focus on single carriageways in the countryside and on the edge of towns?”
“Will the Minister take more proactive steps to protect green space in our towns and villages? <BR /> <BR />With an ageing population, will the Minister look at embedding policies that are not only age-friendly but dementia-friendly? Again, my constituency has not only one of the oldest populations but one of the highest incidences of dementia. <BR /> <BR />Given that councils are significantly down the road in the development of their local development plans (LDPs), what impact will the new approach have on those plans and their reassessment and adoption?”
“I welcome the principles set out in 'Creating an Inclusive Future Vision for our Ageing Populations'. Over the years, development plans in the UK and other countries have placed a great deal of focus on the young and have largely excluded older people. Cities and towns are not the exclusive property of the young, and it is important that spatial planning policies are developed to be as inclusive of all groups as possible. The constituency that I represent has one of the oldest age demographics in Northern Ireland. <BR /> <BR />The pandemic has highlighted the great lack of open public space for exercise in some areas, and we all know the benefits of access to green space and nature for mental well-being. Does the new joint approach recognise the importance of green space?”
“I thank the Minister for his answer. The huge drop in revenue as a result of fewer flights has caused devastating losses to other people and industries, such as engineers, travel agents, airport car parks and taxi operators. What are the Minister and his Department doing to assist other Ministers to prepare a package of measures to support those businesses specifically?”
“I thank the deputy First Minister for her answer. We are all aware that work is ongoing to produce a pathway out of lockdown. The deputy First Minister should know that people are mindful of the need to protect lives and the health service, but they are also weary. Will she give a commitment that that pathway will be meaningful, detailed and unambiguous and will have clear targets?”
“I welcome the Minister's announcement that a new scheme will open for private bus and coach operators. Will she give an assurance that that will not just be an extension of the previous scheme, given the issues that have been associated with that? Will she also commit to a similar scheme for taxi operators, mindful that the Finance Minister has money to spend?”
“Indeed, in the Committee's discussions with the PSNI about road safety this was a major concern. <BR /> <BR />Mr Deputy Speaker, I hope that I have outlined how much the Committee encourages the Minister and her officials in their efforts to improve road safety and commits itself to working with her to that end. That said, the affirmation of this statutory rule goes only part of the way to meeting the Committee's agenda. That said, we support the rule.”
“Indeed, last week's announcement by the Minister for Infrastructure to upgrade the A1 dual carriageway to improve its safety has been long sought and is welcomed by the Committee. That road has a history of road fatalities, which, hopefully, will not be repeated with the new improvements. <BR /> <BR />The Committee has also supported the development of a new road safety strategy and has been critical that the current strategy has only been extended, rather than replaced, by the Minister. The Committee has also expressed its disappointment that the funding for road safety has been reduced in recent years. For something so vital, it has been surprising to the Committee that road safety seems to be one of those areas that are cut when money is tight.”