Chris Lyttle
East Belfast · Alliance Party · Northern Ireland
“The Department for Communities, councils, the Department for the Economy, further education stakeholders, the Department of Health and the Department of Finance all responded with their perspectives on and experiences of the provision of free period products and with ways in which the Bill's provisions could be coordinated and funded.”
“That is an important start in support of the implementation of the provisions of the Bill. <BR /> <BR />The Education Committee undertook Committee Stage scrutiny of this cross-cutting Bill — I am proud that we did — on behalf of other relevant subject Committees.”
“and fighting our corners in media studios. Perhaps the hosts of some of those programmes see fit to encourage that type of approach, but I am thankful for the level of cooperation between parties on the key issues and hope that that will be the legacy for the next Assembly.”
“Thank you, Deputy Speaker. I welcome the opportunity to move the Final Stage of the Fair Employment (School Teachers) Bill. It will remove the anachronistic exception of teachers from the Fair Employment and Treatment Order (FETO) and ensure that it is no longer possible for any teacher to be discriminated against because of their religio…”
“This opportunity has been made possible by a collective effort from many people, and I put on record my thanks to research officer Connie Egan and constituency officer Nick Mathison for the work that they contributed to the Bill's progress.”
“<BR /> <BR />I thank my Assembly colleagues without whom the Bill would not have progressed to this stage and would not pass. I thank Sinead for the role that she played as Chairperson of the Executive Office Committee and for the time that she made available to me outside of Bill stages and Committee meetings, which, as I said, made the…”
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“I congratulate the First Minister on her appointment and wish her well for the future. How disappointed is she that the Fresh Start deal failed to deliver a comprehensive framework on legacy issues for victims and survivors in Northern Ireland?”
“How will the Minister ensure sustainable funding for the women's centre childcare fund for 2015-16, given that his joint neighbourhood renewal funding bid was not accepted by the Minister of Finance and Personnel?”
“Will the Minister confirm that there is no way to obtain lawful authority to display flags on street furniture owned by her Department and to explain why she has taken no action to deal with flags on street furniture owned by DRD or to report that to the agencies that she suggested should be lead agencies on the issue? If she says that community consultation is required, will she explain why she has not undertaken such consultation on an issue on which, surveys consistently find, approximately 80% of people do not believe that lamp posts are respectful places from which to display a flag of any colour?”
“I am laughing again because I did not say that.”
“We welcome the funding that has been achieved to address those issues in the short term, but we clearly need to look at how exactly we prioritise the scarce resources that we have. If we are to have an ongoing ability to modernise the water infrastructure, we will need to make adequate investments. <BR /> <BR />Amendment No 6 is on sustainable urban drainage. As a Member for East Belfast who has seen at first hand the acute pain and damage that is caused to constituents' homes as a result of inadequate urban drainage, I give a warm welcome to amendment No 6. I welcome the manner in which the Committee for Regional Development, the Department, the Minister and officials worked together and with sectoral representatives to secure an amendment that was appropriate at this time. We will support that. That concludes my comments on the Bill.”
“We have done the same thing on other revenue-raising and revenue-redistribution matters that would help us to adequately invest in our public services such as health, education and schools. Not to put too fine a point on it, at this time, people are arguing that we have a crisis in social care, for example. The argument that the choice is between no water charges and water charges is not very accurate; it is about how we use the money and whether it is being used as effectively as possible. <BR /> <BR />We need to remember that this is a Department that, only a matter of months ago, could not keep the lights on, could not cut the grass, could not clean our gullies and could not conduct general road maintenance.”
“It should be based on a fair system. We can look into ability to pay as well. As the EU framework directive sets out, it should be based on a manner that incentivises users to use water resources efficiently. I am saying today that, as a result of the ongoing deferral, we are unable to even get into that level of debate in detail. Indeed, I appear to have been chastised for daring to suggest that the Assembly might want to get detailed reports on the governance and financing of our water system in the future to help us make those decisions. <BR /> <BR />The Minister of Finance and Personnel has previously stated that budget and finance for the Executive and the Assembly will be about tough choices, yet it appears that we continue to defer difficult decisions on many issues. On this occasion, it will be water services.”
“I thank the Member for his intervention. I note that he did not dispute what I quoted him as saying about how all the issues should be up for discussion. I wish that we were not only discussing the installation of water meters but having a more wide-ranging discussion, which he has supported previously. <BR /> <BR />It is important to reiterate that a chair of an expert panel appointed by the Executive to look into the important issue of governance and financing for water has gone as far as to say that we could be costing households more under the current governance model than we would be if we were able to apply fair domestic pricing for the recovery of water costs. It is important that the Assembly continues to investigate that important matter.”
“It is my understanding that previous DUP Ministers of Finance and Personnel have made similar comments.”
“— as a result of this Bill, which we support, they will be deferred until 2017 for obvious reasons, given that there will be an election in the middle of that period —”
“That concerns me, and that is the level of detail and information that the Assembly needs to have an open and transparent debate on this issue. <BR /> <BR />It is also my understanding that the Chair of the Regional Development Committee, Mr Clarke, was quoted on 4 October 2014 as saying:”
“However, the chair of the panel has gone as far as to suggest that the failure to introduce fair domestic pricing policy for water and sewerages services, coupled with a failure to establish a municipal company, as recommended by the independent water review panel, means that DRD is paying a subsidy out of taxpayer contributions of around £270 million a year to Northern Ireland Water and, most likely, a capital depreciation charge of around £200 million, and, as a result of that model, Northern Ireland Water must borrow capital at a higher rate than if it were a stand-alone municipal company. All of that could mean that households are, indirectly, paying more for the provision of water and sewerage services than if a direct charge or fair domestic pricing per household were introduced.”
“Unfortunately, as the chair of the panel acknowledged, reports were prepared, recommendations were made and the Minister agreed with the conclusions, but that has all sat on a shelf. Consecutive Regional Development Ministers have failed to bring this debate forward. <BR /> <BR />I am aware that concern exists in the community regarding any potential additional cost, which some people have estimated to be in the region of £400 per year, if all households were to pay the same amount.”
“I argue that, to date, consecutive Ministers and parties have been unwilling even to discuss or bring forward alternative proposals that we can debate or consider. The motivation behind the amendment is to ensure that we continue or begin to have an open and transparent debate about this extremely important issue. <BR /> <BR />In noting the panel's conclusion, the Minister at the time, Sinn Féin MLA Conor Murphy, stated:”
“We also have, as long ago as 2007, the independent water review panel, which proposed that the Water Service should become a government-owned company and that households would be required to have domestic water pricing. The panel was made up of substantial experience and a wide range of interests, including consumers, social justice, economic research, sociology and social policy. It had, at the forefront of its considerations, a desire to avoid any increase in the pain that would be felt by poor and working families in our community. <BR /> <BR />It set out clearly:”
“I suppose my response to that is that, if there is such a detailed framework of reporting mechanisms in place, surely that will make fulfilling what is being set out in the new clause a straightforward exercise that really only adds greater transparency to exploring, for example, the PC report, which I am sure even a lot of Members might not be particularly aware of, never mind the public, and which goes into great detail as to what is needed to adequately finance our water infrastructure. Indeed, the most recent scrutiny of the PC report raised some concerning information on whether the Department for Regional Development was able to adequately finance our water infrastructure in Northern Ireland. <BR /> <BR />I think that we need a more public debate about our water and sewerage provision. We have PC15, which the Minister referred to.”
“I thank the Member for his intervention. In fairness, the Minister has said this evening that the Utility Regulator has concerns about the proposals. Perhaps fuller consultation with the Utility Regulator in relation to this would be prudent, if I am being sensible about that. However, part of the Minister's rebuttal of the amendment was to set out a detailed list of reporting mechanisms in relation to the issues that the amendment seeks to have reported to the Assembly.”
“So, it does seem counterintuitive; that said, if our opposition to clause 3 is opposed, I will agree with my fellow members of the Regional Development Committee that the amendments put forward by the Minister in relation to that provision do tidy up what is being proposed in the Bill. <BR /> <BR />Our proposed amendment to create a new clause 7 is really to enhance the process and require the Department for Regional Development to provide the Assembly with the information needed to have ongoing, informed consideration of this important matter.”
“I thank the Member for his intervention. Perhaps the Minister will be able to speak to that, or indeed Conor Murphy of Sinn Féin, who I believe was the holder of the ministerial office at that time. <BR /> <BR />From our perspective, it seems counterintuitive to remove the current policy, given the potential need to future-proof our new homes in relation to this. In the interests of openness and transparency, which has been mentioned this evening, we know that article 9 of the EU water framework directive requires a clear display of recovery of water costs and water pricing policies that provide adequate incentives for users to use water resources efficiently.”
“It is estimated that it will cost around £2·8 billion to address waste water infrastructure across Northern Ireland, and around £750 billion to address infrastructure in Belfast. Although the Alliance Party has been clear in relation to its support for the provision in the Bill that defers the introduction of itemised water pricing at this time, in line with the Executive agreement that we should support it, we think that there is a need for urgent consideration of how exactly we are going to deliver sustainable governance and finance for our water infrastructure in Northern Ireland. That is what is behind our intention to oppose clause 3, which removes the requirement on NI Water to install meters at domestic properties.”
“On those grounds, I will try to engage with the amendments and the substance of the Bill. <BR /> <BR />It is clear that good water and sewerage services are absolutely vital for population growth, the housebuilding industry, commercial business growth and flood prevention, as many Members mentioned this evening, as well as environmental protection. We believe that we need a more mature, open and honest debate on how we are going to govern and finance water and sewerage provision adequately in Northern Ireland. I think we need to nail down the myth that there are no costs or charges for water at this moment in time. The Executive allocate approximately £280 million of public money to Northern Ireland Water towards the cost of water. That is £280 million that is not being allocated to health, education, schools and community safety etc.”
“I welcome the opportunity to speak on the Consideration Stage of the Water and Sewerage Services Bill. I reassure the House that the proposed amendments were solely in relation to the Consideration Stage of the Bill. I am not sure that anyone is going to think that a technical amendment, as is the case with amendment No 7, is an election stunt. I cannot imagine that it will get a whole lot of coverage outside the Chamber, to be honest with you. I have no idea why anyone would think that it is anything other than a genuine, substantive proposed amendment to the Bill. <BR /> <BR />I am also a bit surprised that people are surprised that Members would seek to propose amendments to legislation — it is kind of our modus operandi and what we are paid to be here for.”
“I thank the Member for giving way, although I am not sure who he was giving way to. He has made a totally inaccurate comment. The Alliance Party supported the Executive agreement to defer water charges, so hopefully he will be willing to correct his assertion that we did not support that.”
“Yes, please, Mr Deputy Speaker. I thank the Minister for his stark warning about the implications of failing to adequately deal with the past and, indeed, to fund the institutions that are required to do so. Can he provide any insight into where the blockage to the delivery of a comprehensive mechanism for legacy issues lies? Does he believe that the UK Government will honour their responsibility to adequately fund existing structures to ensure that victims and survivors get access to the information, justice and services that they deserve?”
“I thank the Member for giving way. Would the Executive not be, arguably, less representative, given what you propose for qualification for the Executive?”
“I thank the Member for giving way. Briefly following on from the last intervention, I appreciate that the Member's party has now taken an oppositional stance, but can he advise what his party did on departmental reduction and government reform when it was in the Office of the First Minister and deputy First Minister?”
“The Assembly should make it clear that it will not be a policy that is tolerated on a regular basis. <BR /> <BR />The decision before us today is whether we allow failings beyond our making to hold up much-needed institutional reform or show leadership in delivering departmental reform in time for the scheduled elections in May 2016 and to allow proper Programme for Government planning to be delivered further to that election. Alliance, therefore, supports the Bill and supports better, more effective government for everyone in Northern Ireland.”
“We also have questions about the need for junior Ministers in the Executive Office and, indeed, whether there may be other Departments where there could be a more appropriate use of resources. <BR /> <BR />I think that Mr McCallister made the most substantive objection to accelerated passage. He mentioned clearly that the Executive branch should not use the legislature as a rubber stamp: I strongly agree with Mr McCallister on that. Accelerated passage is not ideal; it should be used rarely, rather than regularly.”
“There is a need for cooperation on key issues to unite our community, to build a shared, fair and prosperous society and, indeed, to deliver environmental justice. <BR /> <BR />In supporting accelerated passage for the Bill, the Alliance Party still very much reserves the right to robustly scrutinise the transfer of functions order that will come forward. We do, indeed, have some concerns about how policy provision for children and young people, for example, will be dealt with, how good relations will be across all Departments and, indeed, where the employment service will rest. Indeed, we make an early indication that we believe it should be in the Department for the Economy.”
“There will hopefully be financial savings, but the primary rationale for the proposal is, indeed, to have more efficient and effective government for the people of Northern Ireland. It is hoped that the reorganisation will bring more joined-up government and that synergies can be delivered. However, the Alliance Party would go further and reduce the number of MLAs to 90 in time for the next election. We would also like to see greater use of a statutory duty on Departments to cooperate. <BR /> <BR />Institutional reform alone, however, will not deliver the effective power-sharing government that I believe the vast majority of people in Northern Ireland want to see. We need to see greater cooperation and collaboration between all Departments and difficult decisions being taken.”
“<BR /> <BR />There may have been concerns and cautions correctly and sincerely given in the Committee on the use of the accelerated passage procedure for the Bill, but, as the Chair stated at the end of our session with the junior Ministers, there is no disagreement about the urgent need for departmental reform and a reduction in Departments. On behalf of the Committee, I therefore support the Second Stage of the Bill. <BR /> <BR />Speaking briefly as an Alliance MLA, in supporting the Bill, I make it clear that Alliance has long advocated a reduction in the number of Departments. In our 2011 Assembly manifesto, we argued and proposed a reduction from 12 to eight, but, in the interests of compromise and good governance, we have agreed to the nine-Department structure.”
“Junior Minister Pengelly advised that it was her understanding — she has confirmed it today — that the drafting of that order is at an advanced stage. <BR /> <BR />The Committee made it clear that it will require as much time as possible to consider what is likely to be a comprehensive transfer of functions order, and it welcomed a commitment given by the junior Ministers that the Office of the First Minister and deputy First Minister would work with the Committee on the matter. To ensure that it is informed in its consideration of the order, the Committee has already written to Statutory Committees to seek their views on the proposed functions of the nine new Departments.”
“Members heard that the head of the Civil Service has given a commitment that the new departmental structures will be ready for the first day of the new mandate following the election scheduled for May 2016. <BR /> <BR />The Committee was advised that changing a Department's name will not have an impact on its functions and that no functions impacting on the public will cease and no policies will be terminated as a consequence of the structural changes. However, members heard that the functions of the three Departments to be dissolved will need to be reallocated. There will also be some additional rearrangement of functions. These changes will be made by a transfer of functions order that will be brought forward after the Bill has completed its passage through the Assembly.”
“In response to questions from Committee members, the junior Ministers also advised that, while the number of ministerial appointments would naturally be reduced as a consequence of the legislation, no decision had been made regarding the appointment of junior Ministers — for example, whether the junior Minister positions will remain in the Executive Office or move to another, larger Department that may be facing significant challenges, such as the Department of Health. <BR /> <BR />At our meeting, the junior Ministers provided information on the programme board chaired by the head of the Civil Service, which is making practical preparations for the reduction in the number of Departments.”
“I rise to speak initially on behalf of the Committee for the Office of the First Minister and deputy First Minister on the Second Stage of the Departments Bill. The Bill will give effect to the Executive's agreement to reduce the number of Departments from 12 to nine in time for the 2016 Assembly election. It renames seven Departments and dissolves three others, while the names of the Department of Education and the Department of Justice remain unchanged. <BR /> <BR />The OFMDFM Committee received a pre-introductory briefing on the Departments Bill from junior Ministers on 30 November. The junior Ministers advised the Committee that the aim of the Bill is to deliver more effective, more streamlined and better government for the people of Northern Ireland.”
“I thank the Member for giving way. Mr Allen, Mr Allister and Mr McCallister have used the vast majority of their time to raise concerns that I share, but none of them has mentioned any specific concerns about the actual Bill or the issues that they would like to raise in a more extended scrutiny process. I ask Mr McCallister this: are there issues in the Bill that, he thinks, we need more time to scrutinise, given how simple the Bill is?”
“The Departments Bill is a simple aspect of that process. The Bill is relatively short and just names the new Departments. In our opinion, the real scrutiny should fall on the transfer of functions Order. The Alliance Party wants to ensure that all the remaining time can be focused on that, with detailed discussions at the OFMDFM Committee and on the Floor of the Assembly. Therefore, support for accelerated passage should not be misrepresented as curtailing scrutiny. On the contrary, it should be considered as maximising the opportunity for scrutiny where it matters. The Alliance Party will certainly play a full role in that scrutiny to ensure that we devise an efficient Executive structure that can deliver for everyone in Northern Ireland.”
“It is in the consideration of the transfer of functions Order that the detail of the changes to departmental structures and functions will be scrutinised. Without the use of the accelerated passage procedure for the Departments Bill, progress to the transfer of functions Order and the new nine-Department structure would not be in place in time for the Assembly election next year. Given that no functions of government are being removed and no polices terminated as a result of the planned restructuring of Departments, the Committee agreed by a majority to support accelerated passage. <BR /> <BR />If I may, Mr Speaker, I will speak very briefly as an Alliance Party MLA. We support the reduction in the number of Departments and will set out the rationale further in the Second Stage debate.”
“The First Minister announced the decisions that had been reached by the Executive on the proposed new departmental structures to the Assembly on 2 March 2015. It is, in the opinion of the Committee, regrettable that it has taken nine months for the legislation to be introduced and that, as a consequence, it is unlikely that a full Committee Stage will be possible, subject to the Assembly's agreement to the motion. <BR /> <BR />Junior Minister McCann advised the Committee that it would have been preferable for the Bill to be introduced in time for it to complete normal passage through the Assembly. However, she also explained that the Bill needs to pass through all stages before the transfer of functions Order, which is the mechanism by which the functions and the detail of each Department will be considered, can be introduced.”
“The rationale for the request for accelerated passage has been set out by junior Minister McCann, along with the rationale for the Bill. <BR /> <BR />Junior Ministers met the Committee on Monday 30 November, which fulfilled the requirements of Standing Order 42(3), which states that, where it is thought that a Bill should proceed by accelerated passage, the Minister or Member in charge shall:”
“Mr Speaker, I seek your indulgence, very briefly, to add my tribute to outgoing MLA Pat Ramsey. It has been a privilege and a pleasure to get to know Pat and to work with him on the Employment and Learning Committee and on a number of all-party groups in the Assembly, including the one on learning disability. Pat is a compassionate and courageous MLA, and he has been a passionate advocate for some of the most at-risk and vulnerable people in our community. I extend my best wishes to him in his retirement on behalf of myself and the Alliance Party. <BR /> <BR />In relation to accelerated passage for the Departments Bill, I will initially speak on behalf of the Committee for the Office of the First Minister and deputy First Minister as its Deputy Chair.”
“Most importantly, having met staff and residents at care homes whose primary concern is the impact that closures will have on the residents' health and well-being, I ask what options the Minister can actively pursue to avoid a need for residents to leave their homes, to prevent the detachment from staff on whom they rely and, at the very least, to limit the damage that that dislocation is going to cause for vulnerable people in our community, many of whom are dementia care patients?”
“I thank the Minister for his update, but given that we have had warnings of crisis in the care sector for some considerable time and people have cited declining trust aid, rising staffing costs and a shortage of nurses as main reasons to point towards a lack of adequate long-term planning and sourcing for care, should we conclude that the Minister has been caught asleep at the wheel on this issue?”
“Does the Minister agree that education, health, community and business sector partnerships are key to improving educational outcomes? Can he give to the EastSide learning partnerships and learning framework the same positive support as he has given to the Full Service community network in north and west Belfast?”
“The Chair of the Committee for the Office of the First Minister and deputy First Minister has set out clearly the Committee amendments. They are largely technical in nature and will improve definitions and processes that will be created by the Bill. He also set out clearly the Committee's position with regard to amendment No 139. I therefore commend the Committee for OFMDFM's positions on the amendments to the Assembly.”
“I declare an interest as a member of an amateur football club in Northern Ireland. I wholeheartedly welcome the football stadia funding programme for senior and junior football in Northern Ireland. I particularly welcome the commitment to Glentoran Football Club. It is a real hub for sporting and community development, not only in east Belfast but for national youth training, particularly in intermediate and junior football. Does the Minister recognise that intermediate and junior football in particular are in real need of support due to the individual and community outcomes they achieve for groups in areas of particular high social need? Will she commit to ensuring that as many football clubs as possible are fully aware of the opportunities that this fund will create?”
“I thank the Member for her update and welcome the much positive work the Commission has been doing to ensure youth participation and inclusion in the Assembly process, particularly the inaugural Youth Congress that is scheduled to take place in this Assembly Chamber tomorrow. Does the Member accept that the priority for children and young people remains the Northern Ireland Youth Assembly? Would the Commission be willing to re-engage with the youth sector — the Northern Ireland Youth Forum, for example — to re-examine and refresh costings and proposals in relation to the Northern Ireland Youth Assembly?”
“The success and achievements of the Northern Irish football team have inspired and united this community, I am glad to say, and I thank the Minister for acknowledging that and for agreeing that fans' embassies should be an important source of advice for fans in France. Is the Minister willing to meet with a delegation from the IFA and the Amalgamation of Official Northern Ireland Supporters Clubs to review how she might help the success of the fans' embassies?”
“He also mentioned alternative ways of protecting diversity in the Assembly, such as through our electoral system, all of which, I think, merits consideration. <BR /> <BR />This reduction could save around £11 million over five years. The childcare budget for 2011-15 was around £12 million. Those may seem like modest savings, but the resources could go a very long way for a lot of hard-working families. The Alliance Party is clear that this would be for the common good and in the interests of effective power-sharing government and well-resourced, efficient public services for everyone in our community. We commend the motion to the House.”
“Mr Danny Kennedy attempted to bring some humour to the debate, although I must make it clear that I doubt very much that the need to reduce costs and for more efficient and effective governance in Northern Ireland is a laughing matter to the public or, indeed, a dead issue to hard-working taxpayers, many of whom, before he abdicated office, could not even get their grass cut or their streets lit as a result of his approach to government. We need to move beyond that approach to governance in Northern Ireland. <BR /> <BR />Stevie Agnew raised a number of important issues. He suggested that the reduction take place in line with the reduction in Departments, ensuring that our multiparty coalition has effective opposition.”