Chris Lyttle
East Belfast · Alliance Party · Northern Ireland
“The Department for Communities, councils, the Department for the Economy, further education stakeholders, the Department of Health and the Department of Finance all responded with their perspectives on and experiences of the provision of free period products and with ways in which the Bill's provisions could be coordinated and funded.”
“That is an important start in support of the implementation of the provisions of the Bill. <BR /> <BR />The Education Committee undertook Committee Stage scrutiny of this cross-cutting Bill — I am proud that we did — on behalf of other relevant subject Committees.”
“and fighting our corners in media studios. Perhaps the hosts of some of those programmes see fit to encourage that type of approach, but I am thankful for the level of cooperation between parties on the key issues and hope that that will be the legacy for the next Assembly.”
“Thank you, Deputy Speaker. I welcome the opportunity to move the Final Stage of the Fair Employment (School Teachers) Bill. It will remove the anachronistic exception of teachers from the Fair Employment and Treatment Order (FETO) and ensure that it is no longer possible for any teacher to be discriminated against because of their religio…”
“This opportunity has been made possible by a collective effort from many people, and I put on record my thanks to research officer Connie Egan and constituency officer Nick Mathison for the work that they contributed to the Bill's progress.”
“<BR /> <BR />I thank my Assembly colleagues without whom the Bill would not have progressed to this stage and would not pass. I thank Sinead for the role that she played as Chairperson of the Executive Office Committee and for the time that she made available to me outside of Bill stages and Committee meetings, which, as I said, made the…”
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“I will speak on the Education Committee's amendment Nos 47 and 56 on regulations. <BR /> <BR />In attending to the Bill's regulation-making powers, the Committee noted that clause 10(1) enables supplementary provision to be made and that clause 10(2) prescribes a list of matters for which that provision may be made. The Education Committee was content that supplementary provision was in service to the provisions of the Bill to make it work better but came to the view that the list of matters in clause 10(2) was required to be more clearly limited to the context of changes to and decisions on integrated education only. Accordingly, the Committee's amendment No 47 sets out to achieve that. The Committee consulted the Examiner of Statutory Rules (ESR) for her advice on the regulation-making powers in the Bill.”
“That will only be true if the amendment is moved. I presume that, if it is not moved, then that does create the opportunity for introduction at Further Consideration Stage.”
“Some Committee members opposed the clauses in their entirety, some supported them, and some, as I said, were eager to do further work with the Bill sponsor, and that has been manifested in the amendments that we are considering today. <BR /> <BR />Speaking as Alliance education spokesperson, I will support the Bill sponsor's new clause 7 via amendment No 27. It was tabled further to engagement with the Education Committee and goes to the heart of the Bill in many ways, which is, indeed, to facilitate robust and innovative consultation on the demand for integrated education and to ensure that the aim is to meet that demand.”
“The Education Committee has not tabled amendments for group 3, relating to strategy, implementation and reporting. The Committee thoroughly considered clauses 6, 7, 8 and 9, dealing with the duty to plan for integrated education, the presumption in relation to new schools, the integrated education strategy, and reporting. There were concerns in relation to clauses 6 and 7, particularly regarding the responsibilities for CCMS and EA and in relation to area planning. It was acknowledged, however, that there was a wide range of views and that further engagement with the Bill sponsor was going to be necessary in that regard.”
“I thank the Minister for giving way. I had asked her to do so previously. <BR /> <BR />Minister, you referred to two issues: consultation and judicial review. I am reluctant to get drawn into the red herring issue of consultation. Obviously, no Department should wish to have to get multiple judicial reviews discharged. I am loath to centre on one particular school, but I distinctly remember asking the previous Education Minister, Peter Weir, whether he was concerned about the prospect of a judicial review of his original decision on Strangford College. His response was, "We deal with judicial reviews all the time."”
“Football clubs across Northern Ireland are delivering high-quality grassroots participation and performance football, including high-quality games screened live by international broadcasters to a worldwide audience, such as the fantastic game between Cliftonville and Glentoran last night. They are doing so, however, in decades-old facilities that have had no public investment. Will the Minister assure the House that the subregional stadia funding that is so dearly needed will be released prior to the end of this mandate?”
“I thank the Member for giving way. That is a misrepresentation of the Bill. He referenced the key aim to promote the education of the people of Northern Ireland: for me, the heart of the Bill is about assessing, identifying, and meeting what the people of Northern Ireland want from education. In particular, as he said, it is about ensuring that we identify, assess and aim to meet the demand of parents and pupils who wish to access integrated education, given the difficulty that they have in accessing it at the moment. Surely, that is consistent with the key aim that he set out for the education of the people of Northern Ireland.”
“I thank the Member for giving way, unlike some other Members, regrettably. We do not have to speculate on or debate what either "promote" or "support" means: the clear proposal in the amendments — I thought that it was amendments that were debated at Consideration Stage — is that it would mean to identify, assess and aim to "meet" demand for integrated education. DUP Members and Mr Allister are in opposition to identifying, assessing and aiming to meet parental and pupil demand for integrated education.”
“It demonstrates that you will not let me in.”
“I thank the Member for giving way. I want to ensure accuracy. A lot is being said about the Bill's purport. It proposes to identify, assess and aim to meet demand for parental and pupil choice for integrated education. How does he propose that we educate children together? One proposal to advance that is through identifying, assessing and aiming to meet parental and pupil demand for integrated education. A lot has been said about the Bill. It is one attempt. What is his attempt? What is the DUP's proposal to advance children being educated together? It keeps saying that that is what it wants.”
“I thank the Member for giving way. A previous DUP leader described education in Northern Ireland as benign apartheid.”
“Will the Member give way briefly, please?”
“If the Minister accepts and, indeed, supports or acquiesces in that additional duty, why can we not make other duties and other provisions pertaining to integrated education, particularly if integrated schools have to take judicial reviews in order to advance development proposals?”
“I thank the Member for giving way briefly. He accepts the additional duty to encourage and facilitate integrated education.”
“I thank the Member for giving way. I have two quick points. Will the Member accept that, if the amendments pass at Consideration Stage, the Bill will not promote integrated education? Also, how well does it reflect on the fulfillment of the Department of Education's duty to encourage and facilitate integrated education when schools like Strangford College have to take a judicial review in order for simple development proposals to be accepted by the Department of Education?”
“I thank the Member for giving way. I will try to help by being as clear as possible. The Member and others have referred to evidence and advice. The Member will be aware that some of the advice that was provided to the Education Committee, such as legal advice, cannot be shared with the sponsor of the Bill. It is entirely accurate for the Bill sponsor to make it clear to the House and publicly that, no matter how adherent she and her researchers have been to every jot and tittle of the numerous meetings that the Committee held on the Bill, some elements of matters discussed at that stage are not privy to her or her researcher. Is that fair to say?”
“<BR /> <BR />I support the Bill, as amended by the sponsor, and I will move the other amendments on behalf of the Education Committee.”
“The area planning working group and the area planning steering group conduct extensive engagement to ensure that the parental and pupil preference for education in Northern Ireland is met. Reference was made to the Northern Ireland Council for Integrated Education being on the level of the Education Authority and the Council for Catholic Maintained Schools (CCMS): they are not the same. NICIE is not a planning authority, but EA and CCMS are. The motive of the Bill is to ensure that there is a fair approach to identifying, assessing and aiming to meet demand for integrated education and, in instances where there is significant oversubscription in particular areas and a lack of parental and pupil choice, to ensure that that is met without any reference to any other sector being made.”
“I have already said that extensive work was done to ensure that whatever term is used is acceptable. The word "promote" raised particular concern for some reasons. The definition is linked to other clauses that have been proposed for amendment, which, I understand, the Bill sponsor is willing to accept. Work has been done, changes have been made and concerns have been addressed to some extent in that regard. I hope that we will see that during the debate and that that will ensure that the wide range of other provisions that are being put forward in the Bill are enacted. <BR /> <BR />The Minister attempted to make the case that area planning is all equal and the same.”
“Yes. I will just finish quickly. It is not accurate to paint a picture of there being no difference. I am happy to give way.”
“There are differences in access. For example, in 2018-19, in the primary sector, 12% of all places in integrated schools were unfilled, whereas, for non-integrated, that figure was 20%. There are some differences, and attempting to paint a picture —.”
“I am sure that, as she has done calmly and politely throughout the Bill's consideration, Kellie will be content to rebut that tactic in relation to what were constructive and extensive efforts to engage with parties on some of the areas of the Bill about which Members had concern. <BR /> <BR />The Minister also referred to similarities between aiming to meet the demand of parental and pupil preference for integrated education and aiming to meet the demand for other types of provision. The Assembly's Research and Information Service (RaISe) helpfully compiled some of the data for us, however, and found that:”
“I did not use them interchangeably. I referred to the fact that a lot of work went into making the change from "promote" to "support". Indeed, as the Minister said, whatever term is used, it will have some degree of linkage to other clauses of the Bill, which have also been amended as a result of extensive engagement. I will not dwell on this, but my point is that it is unhelpful to use the phrase "a cosmetic exercise" to describe that engagement. We can move on from that. <BR /> <BR />The consistent tactic of attempting to paint a picture of non-engagement on the part of Kellie Armstrong is rather underhand.”
“Let us start off on a better footing today.”
“Yes. Although you did not give way to me yesterday, I will happily —.”
“The Minister's reference to the fairly substantive engagement with the Education Committee and, as I understand, all political parties in the Assembly about "promotion" or "support for" integrated education as "a cosmetic exercise in semantics" is fairly unhelpful, to be honest.”
“I thank the Member for his intervention. I will move on. The co-authors of that independent review may wish to reflect on the fact that their independence and the independence of their work and recommendations were brought into question in the Assembly both yesterday and today. They may wish to engage with Members as a result of that. <BR /> <BR />I acknowledge the willingness of the Bill sponsor to make a reasonable compromise and to adjust the wording of the legislation from the "promotion" of integrated education, as recommended by the independent review of integrated education, to "support for" integrated education. I sincerely hope that that allows for the passage of other important provisions of the Bill on assessing and aiming to meet the demand for integrated education.”
“Indeed, widespread engagement is conducted by the chairs of those reviews to ensure that their outcomes in the recommendations represent the wishes of the people of Northern Ireland. <BR /> <BR />My understanding is that Peter Weir MLA, in his role as Minister of Education, recommended that any outstanding recommendations of that independent review be considered and form part of the independent review of education. If it was felt meritorious for them to be considered by the independent review of education, why now question the independence of those recommendations and put some query over them?”
“I thank the Member for his intervention. I am not sure how helpful it was, and I am not going to dwell on it. It may be something that we will return to. <BR /> <BR />The Member acknowledged that there were two co-chairs of the independent review, one of whom has extensive experience in integrated education and another who is an extremely capable professor, I believe, at Queen's University Belfast. The independent review of education contains similarly experienced and skilled people who also have experience in particular sectors with particular interests. I still hold that I think that the assertions regarding the independence of the review have been extremely unhelpful. Once members are appointed, there has to be a degree of trust placed in the work that they are going to carry out.”
“I think that it would be helpful for those comments to be clarified. <BR /> <BR />It is for other parties to make the case as to why promotion of integrated education in Northern Ireland does not merit legislative provision, though I acknowledge the extensive cross-party work that gone on to try to overcome that particular challenge.”
“I regret that Peter Weir MLA is not in the Chamber today, because his contribution yesterday on that Department of Education-commissioned independent review of integrated education was really quite concerning. I believe that he referred to it as being "not truly independent". I ask Peter Weir MLA in what way it was not truly independent, and, indeed, in what way the independent review of education is independent where the independent review of integrated education is not. I think that it is profoundly unhelpful for a former Education Minister to refer to a review of that nature, which has made substantive recommendations, many of which have now been forwarded for consideration by the independent review of education, to make that assertion that it was "not truly independent".”
“There is disappointment, however, particularly given that there is an existing duty to promote shared education and that the Department of Education commissioned an independent review of integrated education that clearly recommended legislation to place a duty on the Department of Education and a power on all other arm's-length bodies to:”
“That advice gave rise to the Education Committee's amendment No 59. The proposal is simple and derives from the basic tenets of transparency, awareness and effectiveness. In the amendment, the Committee proposes that each iteration of guidance made under clause 11 should be laid before the Assembly and published by the Department. <BR /> <BR />Speaking in my capacity as Alliance education spokesperson, I express my disappointment that other parties were not willing to support a legislative duty on the Department of Education to promote integrated education, but I acknowledge and recognise that a lot of work has been done with the Bill sponsor and, indeed, on a cross-party basis to resolve that matter.”
“The Education Committee proposes two amendments in group 2. The Bill sponsored by Alliance MLA Kellie Armstrong seeks to ensure parental and pupil choice for integrated education and that it be assessed, identified and met. It included, at clause 4, a duty to promote integrated education; "promotion" is defined in clause 5. The Education Committee agreed on the revision of the wording of "meeting demand" in clause 5, requiring instead that the Department should "aim to" meet demand. Accordingly, the Education Committee proposes amendment No 21. <BR /> <BR />The Committee took advice from a range of sources, such as Assembly Legal Services, Assembly Research and Information Services (RaISe), the Examiner of Statutory Rules, the Bill Office, the Speaker's Office and the Education Committee secretariat.”
“I thank the Minister for giving way briefly. Will she accept that the extent of the oversubscription in some schools — I believe that Lagan College, which has been mentioned, is one of the most oversubscribed schools in Northern Ireland — is an indication that assessing, identifying and aiming to meet demand, or area planning to ascertain parental and pupil preference, for integrated education is not working?”
“I thank the Member for giving way. We need to come back into the realm of reality and accuracy here. The Bill gives effect to recommendations from an independent review of integrated education that reported in 2017, almost five years ago. How is it gazumping anything to implement something that was reported on five years ago?”
“I thank the Member for giving way. There is a further amendment that adjusts the language from "meet the demand" to "aim to" meet the demand. It may not make a difference, in his opinion, but I say that as a point of reference.”
“I thank the Member for giving way. In my reading, the express purpose of the Bill is to identify, assess and meet demand for integrated education. How is that in any way unfair?”
“I thank the Member for giving way. For clarity, is he suggesting that we conduct no educational reform or intervention prior to the reporting of the independent review, particularly given that most of the Bill's provisions are based on the previous independent review of integrated education report that was published almost four, or possibly five, years ago?”
“I thank the Member for giving way. To be honest, we are in danger of having the DUP as the only party that is perpetuating that narrative. We have delivered a Shared Education Act, which legally promotes shared education, so it is a myth to say that the Assembly is not promoting, encouraging and facilitating shared education and cooperation between all sectors in Northern Ireland. I do not understand why that point keeps being raised when it is not a point of the legislation.”
“I thank the Member for giving way. Surely, he would not possibly consider subjecting me to him in the Committee for more than a five-month Committee Stage.”
“In the interests of good-natured debate, does the Member acknowledge that a percentage of the controlled schools to which she referred include controlled integrated schools?”
“<BR /> <BR />The lack of information and action on all of those matters is in no small part the motive that has led Kellie Armstrong to propose specific legislation and action to meet the parental demand and the demand of children and young people, which the Education Committee heard quite clearly throughout Committee Stage, for access to integrated education in Northern Ireland.”
“I will also support the Education Minister's amendment No 24, as it will strengthen the requirement of the Education Department to take account of its duty on integrated education. <BR /> <BR />I would really like to hear — I hope that the Education Minister returns to this — how the Department of Education currently encourages and facilitates integrated education and how it identifies, assesses and meets the demand of parents and pupils for integrated education. Perhaps the Minister can also speak to what action the Department has taken to implement the independent review of integrated education, which reported as long ago as 2017.”
“Some 60% of respondents felt that politicians held up the accessibility of integrated education. <BR /> <BR />The Ulster University Economic Policy Centre has also established that separation and duplication in our education system have a significant financial cost, which could be upwards of £90 million per year. Yet, the Department of Education states that our education system is in financial crisis. In my constituency of East Belfast, poll results have found that a majority of parents — approximately 76% — support their school becoming integrated. <BR /> <BR />On the group 1 amendments, I support Kellie Armstrong's proposed definition of integrated education and will not support the Education Minister's proposed narrowing of the definition. I am content to support amendment No 6, as it adds to the definition.”
“That was in 2016. <BR /> <BR />A poll on education in 2018 found that good educational standards are the most important factor for many people when they are choosing a school, followed closely by a desire for children to be educated together. Two thirds of respondents supported their school officially becoming an integrated school. The overall view was that:”
“The Alliance vision for education is an integrated and sustainable system that delivers equal opportunity for all children to develop their unique personality, talent and ability together. <BR /> <BR />The Good Friday/Belfast Agreement of 1998, which is an international peace accord, stated clearly that integrated education is "essential" to reconciliation. 'The Fresh Start Panel Report on the Disbandment of Paramilitary Groups in Northern Ireland' recommended that the Executive set ambitious targets:”
“<BR /> <BR />The Bill sponsor engaged with Committee members on an alternative wording to clause 7. When the Education Committee considered the Bill clause by clause, it was aware that the sponsor intended to amend clause 7 but that drafting had not yet been finalised. Accordingly, amendment No 69 is an Education Committee amendment that is consequential to the removal of clause 7's presumption that every new school should be an integrated one, and I present it to the Assembly. <BR /> <BR />Speaking in my capacity as Alliance education spokesperson, I will say that it is a privilege to support the passage of the Integrated Education Bill, which the group 1 amendments seek to amend, from the Alliance integrated education spokesperson, Kellie Armstrong MLA.”
“<BR /> <BR />The subject of this group of amendments is the definition and purpose of the Bill. Given the range of views among Education Committee members, the Committee did not agree a position on the amendments. I will, however, speak to Education Committee amendment No 69. <BR /> <BR />It was evident that the Bill sponsor aims to retain and extend the existing definition of integrated education in a manner that reflects a changing society in Northern Ireland. Many stakeholders supported that change but also sought assurance that any change would be consistent with the existing definition of integrated education, as per section 64 of the Education Reform (Northern Ireland) Order 1989. The Bill sponsor committed to clarifying that and has accordingly done so by way of amendment.”
“The Education Committee also undertook 14 oral evidence sessions and held 17 formal meetings as part of a comprehensive and inclusive scrutiny process that engaged closely with a wide range of stakeholders, the Bill proposer and the Department of Education. The Education Committee, therefore, allocated significant time and attention to the scrutiny of the Integrated Education Bill, as MLAs will, no doubt, have learned from the Education Committee report on the Bill. The range of stakeholders consulted and involved in written and oral submissions was considerable. The Education Committee extended both its call for evidence and the Committee Stage, which took place over approximately a five-month period in order to bring as much advice and perspective as possible to bear on that important scrutiny task.”