Alex Attwood
West Belfast · Social Democratic and Labour Party · Northern Ireland
“I certainly do not take away from the contribution being made by the judiciary in Northern Ireland to framing a society that upholds the right principles and applies human rights standards across the board without fear or favour. <BR /> <BR />There are two issues with bail. One is police bail, which nobody has commented on so far.”
“Whatever it is, it is a flip-flop. It is trying to cover your tracks. It is having said to people that everything was all right when things were not all right. People saw through it.”
“I thank the Minister for giving way. When I was housing Minister in 2010-11, I conducted a fundamental review of the Housing Executive. It was based upon a number of principles, including protecting the institution of the Housing Executive, its legacy and name.”
“What world have you been living in for the last two or three months? <BR /> <BR />That is why Mr Agnew is right to say that there will be anger. There will be anger at the DUP on the day that a public inquiry is established into RHI, belatedly endorsed by Sinn Féin because it had no place else to turn.”
“He accepted a point from me and then said, "Well, actually, since that time the then deputy First Minister has been looking at the matter." Is it not curious that 18 months ago, despite NAMA, despite Red Sky, despite ransom strips — and, for all we know, people might have even known about RHI then — Sinn Féin, despite all that evidence, s…”
“Sorry, apologies. <BR /> <BR />I agree completely with Mr Agnew who said, in his opening remarks, that there was a need for an independent open process to investigate ministerial conduct, not least given recent events, and that there will be public anger if the motion is not passed.”
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“It is exceptional because this is the first time that a Committee of the House has sponsored legislation, and that legislation has got to Final Stage. It is exceptional also in the diligence of not only Members but, more particularly, those in this House who serve the interests of Members and, therefore, serve the interests of citizens across Northern Ireland. It is also exceptional in the diligence of a number of phases of Committee staff and other people in this Building who assisted the Committee to manage the Bill. Legal Services was heavily involved, not least because of the belated intervention of the Attorney General. The Bill Office was heavily involved, and a lot of other specialist individuals in the life of this Building were involved.”
“One of the essential principles of any deepening democracy is the ability of the citizen to have accountability for the actions of public institutions. The fact that the Bill is now going through its Final Stage will, in the fullness of time, deepen in our own democracy that principle of the citizen having accountability for the actions of public officials and public bodies. In that way, the Assembly is doing a service to the citizens and communities of Northern Ireland. <BR /> <BR />This is an exceptional Bill in a lot of ways. The gestation period for the Bill was exceptionally long, as the Chair indicated in his opening remarks. There was an Exceptional Further Consideration Stage. It is not the first time, but it is one of the few times, that that has happened.”
“I am not straying into the second debate, but the substantive issue is the content of the schedule, which introduces the concept of weighted majorities. That is the substantive point that we have difference with, in addition to a series of particulars in respect of the schedule. Clause 13 refers to that. There may be ways in which the schedule can be substantially reworked so that it is consistent with the Good Friday Agreement, in which case something more appropriate might be agreed. I am prepared to look at that, but that is the thinking. The schedule does violence to the agreement. Clause 13 is only consequential to that.”
“<BR /> <BR />We do not support the proposals for financial assistance and salaries for office holders of the opposition. We think that that crosses a bridge that should not be crossed at this stage. However, in all other ways, if there is going to be an opposition, we believe that it should be subject to the threshold matter. We believe that it should have structures and substance to do the work that it will be expected to do. Save for those comments, we are prepared to see the Bill proceed, subject to those matters that we have indicated on record that we will oppose through a petition of concern, as well as other matters that we will oppose by way of vote only.”
“Whilst there are some issues to be determined in respect of the threshold for a qualifying party, we support proposals that there be a leader and deputy leader of an opposition made up of the qualifying parties. We support the proposals in respect of topical questions and enhanced speaking rights for an opposition. We very much support the proposal for an opposition's right to chair the Public Accounts Committee. Whilst experience in other democratic chambers in relation to who chairs a Public Accounts Committee is different, we believe that that is a good principle and one that has served the people of Ireland well in Dáil Éireann. We also support the proposal that the opposition should have a member on the Business Committee of the House.”
“I will defer to the Speaker in that regard. <BR /> <BR />I will deal now with clause 21, "Departments to be single legal entity". This is a clause that we have petitioned against. I think that Sinn Féin has petitioned against this clause as well. We have done that because, in the Good Friday arrangements, we negotiated the good authority of Ministers. This clause moves or adjusts the good authority of Ministers and the separate bodies corporate that currently exist, namely ministerial Departments, into a single body corporate stretching across all Departments. We believe that that compromises the authority of Ministers and, for that reason, we oppose that clause. <BR /> <BR />We will support clauses that give particular authority to those who might want to form an opposition.”
“I agree, but, given that I was being interrupted from a seated position, I will say that the conditions were objectly different. There was a democratic alternative. Those who took up arms after 1968 and 1969 had a margin of support in the people of Ireland and so on and so forth.”
“— the people of Ireland believed that they had no alternative but to revert to arms whereas, for 30 or 40 years in the North, difficult though it was, there was a constitutional and democratic way forward.”
“Let me explain. The difference is that, in 1916 —”
“It is a million miles from what transpired in Northern Ireland for 30-odd years.”
“I will not press you very far on this one, Mr Speaker. Let us be clear about it for Mr McCartney. Whatever circumstances arose in 1916 or with a war of independence that had a democratic endorsement and the support of the people of Ireland, that is a million miles —”
“I am very keen to answer that question, Mr Speaker, and, if you are not going to stop me, I intend to proceed.”
“So, contradiction in what Sinn Féin says and does is everywhere to be seen, not least in relation to that matter. I give way to Mr McCartney.”
“I will in a second. <BR /> <BR />That said, the contradiction that Mr Allister referred to does not surprise me. In this year, the 100th anniversary of the Easter rising, when people began to assert the independence of Ireland, the independence of this part of Ireland has been surrendered to the British Parliament by the surrender of welfare powers to a Tory austerity Government and all that will follow on the far side of the Welfare Reform and Work Bill that is going through the Chamber.”
“The Member, as is often the case, is accurate when he says that the inconsistency of Sinn Féin spokespersons extends from their Whip in the Chamber to the joint First Minister. That said —”
“I will in a second. <BR /> <BR />If you claim that it is a self-evident truth, then, even if you oppose every other clause, you should not oppose this one. I will give way to the Member.”
“I accept that you are standing in opposition to all the clauses, but you are standing in opposition to something that your Member has declared to be her view, namely, that it is an office of joint First Ministers.”
“It is curious that the petition of concern lodged by the DUP isolates the matter, as I understand it, and that Sinn Féin, while not petitioning it, intends to vote it down. I remember Sinn Féin Members in the Chamber openly referring to joint First Ministers — I think it was Ms Ruane who would, on occasion, proudly claim that it was an office of joint First Ministers.”
“We could then see what that will mean for the overall Budget and what we do to deal with the FDI conundrum, which is that greater Belfast has the skills and infrastructure and other parts of the North, because of the failure of government, not least over the last 10 years, do not have sufficient of either. I therefore urge Members to consider that approach for the reasons I have outlined. <BR /> <BR />I will now comment on some other matters related to clauses 1 to 24, the subjects of this group of amendments, in no particular order — in fact, probably starting at the end. First, I confirm that the SDLP will support clause 20, the renaming of the Office of the First Minister and deputy First Minister. It is a declaration of what is self-evident: it is an office of equal First Ministers, whatever their titles.”
“A situation may well arise over the next period where, because of the infrastructure and skills cluster around the greater Belfast area, FDI benefits the greater Belfast area. Whilst that would be welcome to all of us who live in Belfast, represent Belfast or look for work in Belfast, it does not benefit those outside the greater Belfast area. The experience of the Southern economy is that, while FDI is attracted by lower corporation tax, interest in investment has been sustained because of access to the European market, because of skills and because of the infrastructure. The Assembly should have a dedicated Budget Committee to, for example, interrogate the loss to the block grant of £300 million or more on the far side of the devolution of corporation tax.”
“Absolutely. If there is to be any enhanced function for the Northern Ireland Government and Assembly — in this case, two years away, when it comes to corporation tax — surely it follows that the responsibility falling to Members and parties in the House to have better democratic accountability and oversight is becoming more urgent. <BR /> <BR />There is a danger that, in the rush to devolve corporation tax, we are not working through the requirements of all our regions in order to benefit from a reduced corporation tax percentage. Working that through means working through the skills and infrastructure that are necessary in order to ensure that foreign direct investment is attracted to all regions of Northern Ireland.”
“People from the welfare advice sector were making the argument that the Welfare Reform Committee in Scotland was more and more showing good authority on a cross-party basis in order to intervene in what was happening on welfare reform. We should borrow from that experience. It is a matter that the SDLP intends to return to, given that in this House last year the proposal for a welfare reform Committee was voted down.”
“and so on. We say that, given the change in the number of Departments and the additional pressures that may likely fall on the Committees of the House, having a Budget Committee, in the absence especially of an annual budgetary process, seems to us a sensible and wise arrangement. <BR /> <BR />We also made that argument in relation to the welfare issue. In this month last year, we tabled an amendment in the House that we should borrow from the example of the Scottish Parliament, which has a dedicated Welfare Reform Committee. It is separate from the other Committee oversights of the Departments of the Scottish Government and is dedicated to the oversight of welfare reform. Just last Friday, the SDLP held a welfare seminar for our staff on Eileen Evason's proposals for mitigation and the coming programmes of welfare reform.”
“Therefore, in a situation where you have a smaller number of Departments, with a smaller number of scrutiny Committees but a wider range of functions to consider, when everybody has an ambition for better politics and good governance, it seems to us that we should build into the Assembly better budgetary oversight. There will be a need for it. Two of the mechanisms for doing that are in relation to the budget on welfare and the Budget generally. The Budget generally is the issue that we try to address in amendment No 28, where we call for a dedicated Budget Committee that would, as the amendment says:”
“The experience even of the last two months should warn us that, in future years, we should have a more rigorous budgetary process. We hope that, on the far side of this mandate, for example, in the negotiations around the Programme for Government, parties recognise that, as part of a Programme for Government, you should build into the architecture of government greater budgetary oversight in order to ensure that those matters are properly addressed. <BR /> <BR />That situation will be made more acute by the fact that we will have new Departments and the Statutory Committees of the Assembly will be stretched even more than they have been in this mandate.”
“As far as I am aware, we are the only government institution in these islands that does not have an annual budgetary process. The option that is chosen here is for a Budget that is revised quarterly with monitoring returns. We believe that there should be an annual budgetary process with ongoing budgetary oversight by the Assembly. That informs amendment No 28. <BR /> <BR />The SDLP feels vindicated in that argument, because look at how the budgetary process has been handled for the 2016-17 Budget that will be debated in this Chamber over the next few weeks. Accelerated passage, on the one hand, with Ministers being given very little time to engage with DFP in bringing forward their departmental spending proposals and ambitions.”
“That was our view in 2012, in writing, and those principles, and that view, informs our approach to the principles that underpin this Bill from Mr McCallister. For those reasons, whilst I will make comments about our own amendment, and other clauses and amendments to the Bill, we support the principle of this Bill, and we look to seeing it pass in this mandate and receive Royal Assent thereafter, subject to the comments and concerns that I am about to raise. <BR /> <BR />I will deal first with the substantive content of the Bill, with our amendment No 28 that deals with the proposal for a Budget Committee. The SDLP has long argued, and has probably produced proposals in this regard, that the budgetary arrangements for democratic oversight by the Assembly are lacking; they have been lacking for many's a long day.”
“I will come back to that point, because the SDLP — and I flag this up for Mr McCallister — might yet table amendments at Further Consideration Stage that revert to the pre-St Andrews Agreement process of election on this Floor of the First and deputy First Ministers, rather than the degradation of the Good Friday Agreement and the philosophy that informed it. It came through at St Andrews, was consented to by Sinn Féin, but pushed by the DUP that the process for appointing the First Minister and deputy First Minister should be by way of nomination rather than by election from the Floor. <BR /> <BR />In addition to the First Minister and deputy First Minister being elected by cross-community vote, ministerial offices are allocated on the basis of a democratic mandate and the principle of D'Hondt. We then argued:”
“These were the points that the SDLP made at that time to the British Government, which they chose to ignore. They took forward some of the issues on which they were consulted, but the British Government, at that time, chose to ignore the argument that the SDLP made about opposition. In making the argument, the SDLP said:”
“The SDLP made the following comments, which governed our thinking then and continue to do so now.”
“<BR /> <BR />Since 2012, the SDLP has been on public record as saying that there should be legislative provision for an opposition in the Assembly in the next mandate. In the summer of 2012, the then Secretary of State undertook a consultation that asked parties and people in the North what provisions should be included in a miscellaneous provisions Bill in Westminster on the governance of the Northern Ireland Assembly. People might have forgotten that, but, at that time, the questions covered the date for an Assembly election, the size of the Assembly, fixed terms and dual mandates. The Secretary of State consulted the parties on all those matters and on opposition. When the consultation document was published, the SDLP outlined its views on all those matters and on opposition.”
“Whatever new management and engineering there might be for Departments, the number of Members, petitions of concern or the idea of opposition, the fundamentals will not be addressed. Ministers knowing the difference between being in government and being in power is not addressed by having an opposition. Ministers in all parties being fully committed to all the arrangements arising from the Good Friday Agreement and other agreements is not resolved by having an opposition. Living up to the values of equality, parity of esteem, reconciliation and healing is not addressed by having an opposition. Those issues are dealt with in the hearts and minds of parties, people and politicians, and will not be dealt with or properly addressed by a further re-engineering of the current structures and systems of government.”
“That is not at the heart of the view of a growing number of people. Whether or not we like it — it is a comment on all of us — the problem is the politics, the parties and the persons rather than the processes that govern the conduct of government and the Assembly. Anybody who thinks that there is a fix to the public detachment from the Chamber or the doubts about the good authority of devolution should not consider that new systems, even a system of opposition, will somehow turn the corner on any of that. <BR /> <BR />Failure of government is in people's hearts and minds when it comes to their concerns and anxieties about whether this model of devolution is living up to people's ambitions and expectations.”
“He has attempted to put into law that which now seems to have been accepted and practised by everybody and all parties over time. It bemuses me that, while so many of the structures and processes of the Assembly are established in law, we would not establish opposition in law. Putting things in law creates more certainty, avoids doubt and creates more authority, whatever the nature of the matter that is being put into law. It is inconsistent to rely on the words of a document — in this case, the 'Fresh Start' false start — and not elevate the issue to the point of putting into law the principle that is being accepted by all parties on opposition. <BR /> <BR />As was said in the debate earlier today on reducing the number of MLAs, the problem with government in Northern Ireland is not its structures and systems.”
“On the far side of all that, good legislation is being achieved. For all those reasons, Mr McCallister deserves a lot of acknowledgement.”
“Thank you Mr Deputy Speaker. I intend to speak to amendment No 28 and to the other amendments in the group. <BR /> <BR />I share the comments made by others about Mr McCallister's work on this Bill, private Member's business and Bills in general. The range of his interest is demonstrated by the fact that, on one hand and extreme, he has sponsored and seen through a Bill on caravans, and on the other hand, he may, by the end of this mandate, have seen through another piece of legislation on opposition. So, from caravans to opposition, Mr McCallister has demonstrated the range of his interest and his contribution. If you look at Lord Morrow's Bill and other legislation before the Chamber, or historically that which has been sponsored by private Members and become law, you will see that it is a reflection of the person and the power of one.”
“<BR /> <BR />You would wonder why that one power is retained by one office, when everything else is given to the Department for Communities — mindful, of course, that in the abortive negotiations on legacy matters, which the junior Minister will be very familiar with, if there was something that seemed to emerge, it was that OFMDFM would not appoint the Historical Investigations Unit (HIU) director. On one hand, it seems that OFMDFM, or the DUP and Sinn Féin, are moving away from having power of appointment in those negotiations but, when it comes to the transfer of functions, they retain it. I do not understand what that is all about, so maybe the junior Minister, or her officials, might want to explain it sometime or other because, to me, they did not seem to give a very convincing explanation when they were at Committee.”
“To go back to the point that I was making before Mr Dallat's intervention, this Chamber cannot change the transfer of functions order. Therefore, we will have to take it or leave it that, when functions go to one set of Departments, OFMDFM retains the power of appointment for those senior public personnel. At the Committee, the officials could only name one example of why that was the case. Indeed, it was me who had to prompt the officials to remind them that there was actually at least one other case — namely, the appointment of Victims' Commissioner — where OFMDFM had that responsibility. Why keep the power of appointment over the Older People's Commissioner and the Children's Commissioner when you give every other responsibility in that area of our life lock, stock and barrel to a different Department?”
“Given that they were born as a consequence of decades of misrule, we should be careful about how far we go and how quickly we go in changing the structures born of that experience, unless we are convinced that the current experience of our people of parties, of government and of democracy in Northern Ireland is such that they should be changed.”
“I very much agree with what Mr Dallat said. People should listen to Mr Dallat. He is about to leave the Chamber, and he is one of the wisest, most experienced and longest-standing politicians in Northern Ireland. Those points should be taken fully on board, not least because the reasons, the sentiments and the principles behind the structures of the Good Friday Agreement that were, in our view, falsely changed at St Andrews and then further changed with the devolution of justice were born of decades of bad experience, bad politics and a denial of democratic standards to too many people in this part of Ireland. That is why those structures were created.”
“<BR /> <BR />We have a situation now arising — this was touched on at Question Time yesterday — where significant functions of OFMDFM are going to the Department for Communities, but OFMDFM will retain the power of appointment of the heads of the public bodies that will be part of the responsibilities of other Departments — to name two, the Commissioner for Older People and the Children's Commissioner.”
“There are issues around the transfer of functions order when it comes to individual Departments that, on the face of it, do not make much sense, yet we will not have the opportunity to amend it. That is the nature of the democratic processes of the House, but we will not have the opportunity to amend it. Indeed, when OFMDFM officials brought the processes around this to the attention of the OFMDFM Committee last week, as Mr Lyttle indicated, the Committee agreed, as far as I can recall, that individual parties rather than Committees would be given the opportunity to respond to what may or may not be in the transfer of functions order. That is inevitably the consequence of doing all this work very quickly as we run down to the end of the mandate, but what does that mean?”
“As I said, I make that point because I am picking it up that, in some places in government, at a senior management level the scale of what senior managers are about to undertake in terms of having wider functions in fewer Departments is already being used as an argument to tread slowly, when the people of Northern Ireland are looking for government to tread boldly. Too often, in too many Departments, that has not been the character of devolution over the last 10 years. <BR /> <BR />I concur with Mr Lyttle's point. It will be difficult to make this point, because it is not really that relevant to today, but it is a related matter. When the transfer of functions order comes to the House, it will be by way of affirmative resolution, which means that you take it or leave it and you will not have the opportunity to change it.”
“<BR /> <BR />Another point of caution based on my experience of government is that there is potential for the people who populate the higher levels of government and will lead the new Departments to argue that, as we now have larger Departments with more functions, we have to leave that to bed in. There is a risk that — I am picking this up already — the bigger Departments could lead, in the short term, to a degree of paralysis as those Departments settle themselves and embed into the wider life of government. While there are many good officials, there is a tendency at some levels of government management to err on the side of caution and conservatism.”
“<BR /> <BR />With the reduction of MLAs, whenever that happens, the reduction in Departments, which is now happening, and, we hope, on the far side of this afternoon's debate, a move further towards having in law an opposition in the Chamber, we need to ensure that we manage the internal democracy of the Good Friday Agreement in a way that does not put some of the reasons why we had the Good Friday Agreement in jeopardy. Whilst we may be changing systems and structures in government, this is not the time to go further down the road in the way that some suggest. We will touch on that this afternoon and in subsequent debates.”
“I thank the Deputy Speaker for that concession, and I apologise to the House. I was delayed upstairs at another meeting. I will just make three or four points. <BR /> <BR />First, as everybody will acknowledge, a reduction in Departments is only a reduction in Departments. It is nothing more or less. It does not follow from the reduction in Departments that we will have efficient and effective government. What we will have is fewer Departments with more functions. You hope that, because of that and because of the evolution of our democratic structures generally, they will end up being more efficient and effective, but it does not follow that what we are doing today leads to anything, unless the evidence is there to back it up in the next mandate.”
“I think that it is better of us to do it in that way than to rely upon these highly charged words of "national security", which is in the gift of the British Government and exclusively interpreted by the British Government. I think that it is good that we are not using their language, even if those words may be very extensive. Given the narrative and the history around all this legislation, our party, in line with Mr Maskey's comments, will not support this particular approach, but we will not force a Division in the House on this occasion.”
“Certainly, my view on this matter is that the Attorney General may be false in his interpretation and may be in a different place from many other interpretations on this legislation. <BR /> <BR />It is curious, of course, that, as the Chair read into the record, the references to issues of disclosure now refer to those that are prejudicial to public safety or otherwise contrary to the public interest. They are very wide words, and, therefore, they themselves could be interpreted in different ways and, indeed, be open to abuse. They do not refer to the issue of national security, although that may well be captured or, in the view of some, will certainly be captured in those words. It is curious that, when we come to legislate, we do not refer to those words even if other words are meant to capture that particular issue.”
“Therefore, having got to this stage of creating an office of some authority — time will tell whether its authority is all that it should be — and given that the legislation has got this far after this long period of time, it would be unfortunate if it was derailed. <BR /> <BR />As the Chair indicated, there were members of the Committee — maybe all the members, although I will stand corrected on that — who might differ from the Attorney General's interpretation of things. That is healthy, because the Attorney General may have a particular role in respect of the law in Northern Ireland under the relevant legislation, but he is another lawyer, and people can accept or reject legal advice. The view of many people, maybe on other issues beyond this one, is not to accept the advice of the Attorney General.”
“I acknowledge the role of the Assembly structures and the Speaker in allowing this Exceptional Further Consideration Stage. This is a very rare moment in the life of the Assembly. I think it might have arisen once before in this mandate, although I will stand corrected on that. It is a proper interpretation of the role of the Assembly and the processes on legislation that this Exceptional Further Consideration Stage has been enabled to deal with this outstanding matter, not least because of the reasons the Chair outlined. <BR /> <BR />This is a worthwhile measure of reform that has been in gestation for probably as long as some of us have been Members and certainly longer than some others have been Members.”