Alex Attwood
West Belfast · Social Democratic and Labour Party · Northern Ireland
“I certainly do not take away from the contribution being made by the judiciary in Northern Ireland to framing a society that upholds the right principles and applies human rights standards across the board without fear or favour. <BR /> <BR />There are two issues with bail. One is police bail, which nobody has commented on so far.”
“Whatever it is, it is a flip-flop. It is trying to cover your tracks. It is having said to people that everything was all right when things were not all right. People saw through it.”
“I thank the Minister for giving way. When I was housing Minister in 2010-11, I conducted a fundamental review of the Housing Executive. It was based upon a number of principles, including protecting the institution of the Housing Executive, its legacy and name.”
“What world have you been living in for the last two or three months? <BR /> <BR />That is why Mr Agnew is right to say that there will be anger. There will be anger at the DUP on the day that a public inquiry is established into RHI, belatedly endorsed by Sinn Féin because it had no place else to turn.”
“He accepted a point from me and then said, "Well, actually, since that time the then deputy First Minister has been looking at the matter." Is it not curious that 18 months ago, despite NAMA, despite Red Sky, despite ransom strips — and, for all we know, people might have even known about RHI then — Sinn Féin, despite all that evidence, s…”
“Sorry, apologies. <BR /> <BR />I agree completely with Mr Agnew who said, in his opening remarks, that there was a need for an independent open process to investigate ministerial conduct, not least given recent events, and that there will be public anger if the motion is not passed.”
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“Would you, at least, concede that it is a curious coincidence that the figures being proposed by the SDLP over four years are in and around the figures that you now propose over five years?”
“— the operation and the implementation can deliver to address the stress and waiting lists in our motion.”
“The figures that we propose over four years are, pro rata, identical to the figures that the Minister proposes over five. I think that the Opposition has proven their worth today, because they have smoked out the DUP, without reference, of course, to their colleagues in government, to the point where they have had to put hard figures on the public record in response to the hard figures proposed by the Opposition. <BR /> <BR />I will write to the Minister with a series of 12 questions that I have, and I look forward to his response, because, in that way, the figures —”
“I do not know where Michelle Gildernew gets her information; probably where John O'Dowd gets his. Yesterday, he did not know what Martin McGuinness had said the previous day, and, today, Michelle Gildernew does not know what we submitted to the PFG. I wrote part of it, and we set challenging targets for new-build and affordable housing, as, I am sure, the Minister is aware. I hope that Michelle Gildernew will reflect on that. <BR /> <BR />In conclusion, I want to ask a number of critical questions. If the Minister can answer them in a positive way — if not today, then subsequently — the new targets outlined in the DUP motion might be met. I welcome the new targets. The curious thing about them is that, pro rata, they are virtually identical to the SDLP's amendment.”
“I will in a second. <BR /> <BR />I want to turn to what Mr McCann said. He gave us further facts on what housing waiting stress and housing stress were in previous times. The one thing that he did not dispute was the figures in the SDLP motion, the figures that refer to 37,000 and more on social housing waiting lists, 22,000 and more in housing stress and 15,000 and more deemed to be statutorily homeless. He did not dispute those figures, which are the most acute in a generation. Therefore, whatever the figures were when the SDLP was in government, they are far worse now and are deepening as we speak. Those two facts — the achievement in government and the size of lists now — should conclude the argument about facts once and for all.”
“They confirmed that, in the years 2007 to 2010-11, when the SDLP had the housing brief, there were 8,394 new-build housing social starts. That includes new build, off the shelf, existing satisfactory purchases and rehab and re-improvement. That is Nelson McCausland speaking. Then he went further and said that, in the four years from 2011 to 2015, the comparable figure was 6,704. The facts from the DUP confirm that, in the four years when we were in the Ministry, compared with the four years since or the eight years before we were in the Ministry, new-build social housing starts were at their height of any mandate, of any Government who had responsibility for this area. I hope that settles the issue about the facts.”
“I was not planning to do this, but I have to comment on some of the earlier debate by making two remarks — on the new build figures and on waiting lists. In the debate this morning, there was a sense that it was 'Play Your Cards Right': "Higher, higher, higher" seemed to be the claim of some. In order to get clarity and break through the fog, let us look at what a DUP Minister said in reply to a question in the House about new-build social housing, going back to 1998. I will lodge the answer to the question in the Library. I hope that this Minister, from the same party as his predecessor Nelson McCausland, will not dispute the figures of the previous Minister and that nobody in the Chamber will dispute the figures of the previous Minister. What did those figures confirm?”
“I have a habit — probably a good habit — of wishing Ministers well, especially Ministers of welfare and housing, and I wish this Minister well. My memory of being housing Minister is that it is one of the most valuable pieces of work that you can do in government. I met the Minister of Education coming here this morning, and he said that he had a series of school visits planned. That tells the tale that going to schools, going to new-build housing or announcing housing plans is part of the best work of any Minister. I wish him well in all of that.”
“Further to that point of order. I thank the Speaker for his comments and clarification. If something is not in inverted commas, which is how I normally refer to an official document of the Government, such as the Programme for Government, the Business Office should assume that the words submitted in a motion are the words of that motion.”
“On a point of order, Mr Speaker. I want confirmation that, when the motion that is about to be debated was submitted to the Business Office, it referred to the years 2017-2021, and that, because of the internal procedures of the Business Office in respect of the names of documents — in this case, the Programme for Government 2016-2021 — the dates in the motion submitted by the Ulster Unionists and the SDLP were changed. In so doing, the Business Office did not consult the sponsors of the motion. I accept the ruling that you have made in that regard; namely that, because the motion has been published in that way, it will be debated in that way, but will you confirm that, when the motion was submitted, the effective dates were 2017-2021?”
“It is for others to judge whether others stand in solidarity with her and with them.”
“We do not play politics with this issue. We do not play politics with Máiría Cahill. We do not play politics with any person who is subject to abuse from any organisation or society.”
“We are also right to name all those who have shown the same bravery, including, not least, Máiría Cahill whose voice is still loud, whose dignity is still clear and whose experience still endures as a warning to people in our society about the influence of those self-appointed people who think that it is their job to deal with these issues.”
“<BR /> <BR />I ask the Minister to ensure, when she takes forward the panel report on the enduring legacy and influence of paramilitary organisations, that she looks at whether there is control of communities and individuals that is subject to paramilitary or other organisations when it comes to this issue in the lives of the people of Northern Ireland. There continues to be a narrative about the influence that is being brought to bear, including by people who claim to be associated, or are involved, with paramilitary organisations. They have a role when it comes to the abuse of individuals in our society. I ask the Minister, when she is taking that work forward, to look at that issue. <BR /> <BR />Mr Douglas referred to the bravery last week of Terri-Louise Graham, and he was right to name it.”
“<BR /> <BR />The Minister read into the record chilling comments in respect of the number of children who are affected by, and are living in the environment of, abuse of a parent by a parent. That suggests to me that there is still more work that is required arising from Steven Agnew's Children's Services Co-operation Act to ensure that every remedy and intervention is pursued regarding those who are the most vulnerable in those abusive circumstances, the very young in particular. <BR /> <BR />I thought that Clare Bailey's comment on the PPS publishing figures was very worthwhile. If the PSNI is reporting the highest number of cases of alleged abuse and real abuse since records began, the PPS needs to publish its records of what is coming on the far side of that reporting.”
“The first was referred to by my colleague Mark H Durkan, and it is the roll out of the justice support worker scheme across Northern Ireland. This is something that has been endorsed by charities and organisations working in support of women. I think that it is something that the Minister should endorse and encourage the PSNI to roll out. <BR /> <BR />The Minister referred to her commitment to legislation on coercive control. All of us endorse that. There is now a commitment for that legislation to be on the statute books in the course of next year. That is a challenging timetable and, therefore, I say to the Minister that there is a need to accelerate the processes around this to ensure that that legislation will be on the statute book when we stand in this place in autumn 2017 and that that which we all endorse will have happened.”
“As my colleagues indicated, we will not be dividing the House on the two amendments, and we will be supporting the Green Party's amendment. <BR /> <BR />If you think about it, today should tell the narrative of this mandate. At lunchtime, victims and survivors of institutional and clerical abuse produced further proposals on financial redress, given the horrors that they experienced many years ago and continue to do so to this day. Here, at the end of the day, we have a debate on the abuse of men and women, and particularly women, in Northern Ireland society. So, a defining feature of this mandate should be what we are doing to support victims and survivors, whether they suffered historical or current abuse. <BR /> <BR />In that regard, I want to press the Minister on a number of points made during the debate.”
“— that, if we do not fight together, we will go down together.”
“It is about recognising that the economic and other affairs of this island are so intimately connected —”
“He is setting an Irish Government up to fail. That is their problem. Our challenge is to call out what the Tories in London are doing, to call out anybody who puts our national interest in jeopardy, as the petulant words from the First Minister in response to the all-Ireland forum on dialogue did and to call out anybody who plays politics with this and sets up any Government for failure, as Sinn Féin has done in my view. <BR /> <BR />I will move on from that. There is a position of strength in this debate. Stephen Farry was right to say we are building upon what happened last week. Let us work on that axis and maybe, sooner or later, the Ulster Unionists will recognise where the strength is and the DUP will recognise where the weakness is. The strength is the island and the response of the island.”
“<BR /> <BR />Let me remind John O'Dowd — he did not seem to remember this when he spoke earlier — that his own deputy First Minister called yesterday for special rules to apply to Northern Ireland. He said that Ireland needs to be treated as a special case by Brussels and so on and so forth. Those are the right arguments, even though Sinn Féin came to the right vote in a begrudging way. Let me put down this marker: just as the DUP put all its eggs in the London basket — we see where that is taking us — the Sinn Féin strategy is to blame London for Brexit and blame Dublin for not defending the national interest. Martin McGuinness hinted at that strategy in yesterday's article when he said:”
“Theresa May in her September speech gave her answer to Jeffrey Donaldson, and three DUP Members in this debate gave their answer to Jeffrey Donaldson. I wonder what Jeffrey Donaldson has to say about all that. <BR /> <BR />I want to deal briefly with Sinn Féin. Not for the first time, the right hand does not know what the left hand is doing. It is remarkable that, in what Martin McGuinness said in 'The Guardian' yesterday, he never once referred to the court case in Belfast to keep us in Europe or that he continues to argue to remain. I am not going to make a point about that because I know he makes the argument to remain. But do not pretend, on the basis of our motion, that the SDLP is somehow weakening on the issue of remain.”
“In coordination, within days, two of the biggest German trade organisations made it very clear that the terms under which May had spoken were not going to be the terms under which there would be a Brexit deal. <BR /> <BR />What is remarkable is that in all the DUP contributions, including the remarkable one that referred to a few grey areas that we had to work out, nobody seemed to recognise that the game changed with the May statement and that, with the May statement and hard Brexit, the terms of withdrawal were laid down. The DUP does not seem to have realised that and the consequences of all that. <BR /> <BR />It was also really astounding that Jeffrey Donaldson was left out hanging in this debate. Remember what he said:”
“Let us ignore the strongest voice in the European Union when it comes to the affairs of the European Union. What did she say in relation to that? She said that it was:”
“Never in recent economic history have 20 words had such immediate economic impact, because therein saw the spiral in the value of sterling. If you do not believe me, listen to what Angela Merkel said —”
“through you, Mr Deputy Speaker. <BR /> <BR /> Then she added:”
“That is your seat at the table, Mr Stalford —”
“I find that another remarkable contribution because all the Member hears is what happened in June, and he does not hear what the Prime Minister said in September. So, let me remind the Member what the British Prime Minister said in her hard Brexit speech:”
“If I were a Brexit Minister in London at the moment, I would draw enormous reassurance from what Mr Stalford said, because essentially the argument was that whatever London does, whatever the scale of its excesses, whatever the deficits that might exist around Brexit, we will swallow hard. What a way to conduct a hard negotiation when the British Prime Minister has said that it will be a hard Brexit. I will give way to the Member.”
“I will in a second. I will deal with some of the comments that Mr Stalford made, and then I will let him in. Mr Logan said that the DUP had a seat at the table because it had eight MPs. What sort of a seat at a table is eight MPs, when Theresa May has said that she will not consult or give voice to the Parliament at Westminster in respect of article 50? Is that Theresa May's response to the letter of August from the First Minister and deputy First Minister asking for a seat at the table? I wonder. <BR /> <BR />Then we come to the comments of Mr Stalford, who relied upon the exercise of democracy which was the referendum to justify everything that flows from the referendum.”
“<BR /> <BR />I remember being at a senate meeting of Queen's University a long number of years ago. I was sitting next to the vice chancellor, and he made a comment about the person who had just spoken, "There speaks a man who digs a number of holes and then jumps into the deepest one". That is the only way to characterise today's DUP contributions, which were remarkable in how stuck they were in the narrative of a post-Brexit vote that completely ignored the hard Brexit speech of Theresa May. I say to unionism and to any who voted in favour of Brexit, read what the DUP said today and draw your own conclusions about where your interests lay. <BR /> <BR />I will give you three examples —”
“I will start with a few words of thanks. The first is to the Alliance Party for the thoughtful contributions of Ms Bradshaw and Mr Farry. There are things to build on there, I think. <BR /> <BR />Secondly, I thank Sinn Féin. Somewhat begrudgingly, sheepishly and negatively, they eventually said that they were going to support the amendment, and I will come back to any and all that. <BR /> <BR />May I also thank the DUP? I want to rely upon what Alex Salmond said after Theresa May made her hard Brexit speech at the Tory party conference, and I will paraphrase it by saying to the DUP, "We should be grateful to you. In your various contributions, you lifted the lid on your true intent and the emptiness of your programme". I want, first and foremost, to concentrate on that.”
“I thank the Member for giving way. Given the references to "divisive nationalism", as one comment quoted Theresa May, does the Member have any observation about where divisive nationalism exists on these islands?”
“I am very grateful to the Member. Is he aware that the Lord Mayor of London has argued very much in the spirit of what you are saying, namely that London needs a seat at the table in the negotiations? Will it not be the case that, if there are any seats in the negotiations, London will be there much earlier than anybody from the North?”
“The Minister referred to Fresh Start, the threat of organised crime and the most recent risk assessment of criminal activity on the island. If, arising from Fresh Start, there were a request from the PSNI for dedicated resources to deal with those who hold historical criminal assets — that has a real and harmful impact upon the community, North and South — would she back the PSNI in a bid for extra people and resource to go after them?”
“I welcome the report and, in particular, the appendix that outlines the work programme for 2016-17, which gives an indication of what can be done if there is the political will, North and South, for North/South cooperation.”
“You raised the point about interdepartmental work. Given the opportunity to pool funds, further to Steven Agnew's Act, are you indicating that, across Departments, there will be pooled funds to deal with children's needs and services?”
“— to develop an enterprise and an entrepreneurial culture. Those are some of the measures of a paradigm shift. I look forward to hearing what the Minister has to say.”
“I have a third challenge for the Minister, and this is where he will have to join up with other Ministers. The most mature economic development policies on these islands have targeted strategies that bring entrepreneurship and enterprise into the school estate. There are enterprise programmes whereby pupils in the school system, including in West Belfast, are given all sorts of opportunities —”
“My questions to the Minister are these: will there be a paradigm shift when it comes to the 0-6 strategy and will there be a paradigm shift when it comes to childcare?”
“We need to borrow from the Scandinavian model or, more accurately, from the New Zealand model, when it comes to provision and support for those who are newly born up until when they enter nursery education and primary school, across the range of all those who interface with those children. As part of that, my second point is that, if you are not making adequate provision for childcare for a parent or parents with young children when they are in school or about to go into school, you will not be able to deal comprehensively with the needs of that family and maximise the opportunities for those children when they go into education or are going through education, not least in West Belfast.”
“If we do not shape a paradigm shift, there is a risk that those people in those communities who feel the way that I have outlined will feel that more intensely. Here are the measures that, in my view, when it comes to education provision in West Belfast, will define the future as something different from the past. <BR /> <BR />The first point to make is that we need a comprehensive strategy for those who are nought to six that embraces the child and takes care of the child, the family, the parents and the grandparents up to the point that the child enters nursery and formal schooling. If we do not have a paradigm shift in that regard in educational and other family and child supports, we will not be able to change more fundamentally the circumstances that are experienced in communities in West Belfast.”
“At the same time, if you go through West Belfast — this was my experience in April, May and June on the lower Shankill and other parts of West Belfast and in the months before and since — there are areas and communities where too many people believe that the power of the state, the work of political parties and the interventions of all ranges of public bodies will not change their objective experience. They feel that, whatever the state and others may do, it will not work for them. That is a sad narrative this long after the ceasefires and the devolution of government. <BR /> <BR />When it comes to education provision, I want to put some questions to the Minister. In that regard, I anticipate the meeting that I will have with him next Tuesday afternoon, at which these are some of the issues that we will need to touch on.”
“I thank Jennifer McCann for bringing the topic to the Chamber and welcome the fact that the Minister is here. The reason that I say that is because the debate is very timely. We are now closer to the eve of the publication of the Programme for Government. In my view, when it comes to West Belfast and other areas of need and disadvantage, the PFG has to be a paradigm shift. It has to be a paradigm shift when it comes to education provision and support for those who are about to go to school and those who are at school. <BR /> <BR />I concur with Ms McCann that the achievements of our schools and other educational interventions in West Belfast are immense. There are great schools, great results, great interventions and great community initiatives when it comes to education.”
“That could be unparliamentary, depending on context and circumstances. I ask you to consider those three matters and make a ruling on whether Mr McCartney's comment was unparliamentary.”
“On a point of order, Mr Speaker. I refer you to the debate last week on openness and transparency. You will recall an exchange on the Floor in respect of the rights of smaller parties and their participation in debates. Will you review the Hansard report of that debate in relation to three matters? First, given that exchange, will you, as Chair of the Business Committee, consider circulating the minutes of a Business Committee meeting in late May of this year, when the rights of smaller parties with regard to their speaking in the Chamber were decided? Secondly, subject to the content of that minute being circulated, should Mr McCartney be invited to correct the Hansard report? Thirdly, will you review Mr McCartney's comment during that debate, when he referred to a Member being economical with the truth?”
“What is the likely target, for the 2017-18 financial year, of new-build social housing; and has there been any indication from London Treasury of any consequentials arising from the announcement at the Tory Party conference last week, where there were indications that new funding would be made available for social and affordable housing?”
“Three doctors and two nurses have been killed. Doctors and hospitals are required to recycle syringes, needles and bandages. Thirty-five thousand people — over 10% of the population — have been internally displaced. Last week, the UN special envoy to the area said in crystal clear words that we now had a situation where we had to divert this from being another Srebrenica or another Rwanda and that by Christmas eastern Aleppo could be destroyed. We are witnessing the slow death of its people. As one citizen put it, and I will conclude with these words:”
“Whilst the situation in the city is complex, especially in eastern Aleppo, where no one group is in charge and where the geopolitics are more and more demanding, some things are, nonetheless, straightforward and clear. Whatever the political situation, the humanitarian situation is clear for us all to see. Over the last two weeks, eastern Aleppo has experienced its heaviest bombardment in the last five and a half years of the Syrian war. We now have a situation in which a population of 275,000 in that part of the city has only 30 to 35 doctors, 20 or so ambulances, six hospitals, with two hospitals having been destroyed in recent weeks.”
“I thank you, Mr Speaker, for permitting this matter to be discussed. Whilst it is the case that foreign affairs are not a devolved matter, issues in other places around the world are very much a concern of people in the Chamber, in Northern Ireland and on the island. We know how important it was in our own history that the spotlight was kept on our experience, and it is very important to keep the spotlight on the experience in other places in conflict and where there is humanitarian crisis. <BR /> <BR />Aleppo was, historically, a place of great commerce and culture. Part of the city was on the UNESCO world heritage list. It is a city with a history going back 9,000 years.”