Alex Attwood
West Belfast · Social Democratic and Labour Party · Northern Ireland
“I certainly do not take away from the contribution being made by the judiciary in Northern Ireland to framing a society that upholds the right principles and applies human rights standards across the board without fear or favour. <BR /> <BR />There are two issues with bail. One is police bail, which nobody has commented on so far.”
“Whatever it is, it is a flip-flop. It is trying to cover your tracks. It is having said to people that everything was all right when things were not all right. People saw through it.”
“I thank the Minister for giving way. When I was housing Minister in 2010-11, I conducted a fundamental review of the Housing Executive. It was based upon a number of principles, including protecting the institution of the Housing Executive, its legacy and name.”
“What world have you been living in for the last two or three months? <BR /> <BR />That is why Mr Agnew is right to say that there will be anger. There will be anger at the DUP on the day that a public inquiry is established into RHI, belatedly endorsed by Sinn Féin because it had no place else to turn.”
“He accepted a point from me and then said, "Well, actually, since that time the then deputy First Minister has been looking at the matter." Is it not curious that 18 months ago, despite NAMA, despite Red Sky, despite ransom strips — and, for all we know, people might have even known about RHI then — Sinn Féin, despite all that evidence, s…”
“Sorry, apologies. <BR /> <BR />I agree completely with Mr Agnew who said, in his opening remarks, that there was a need for an independent open process to investigate ministerial conduct, not least given recent events, and that there will be public anger if the motion is not passed.”
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“We need to ensure that sentencing guidelines are laid down that say to those who are responsible that they will face the full weight and rigour of the law, with maximum not minimum penalties being imposed. <BR /> <BR />I will conclude by making this appeal again. What happened in Derry was an indictment of all the relevant agencies. There is no way that that environmental crime should not have been known to the authorities of the state. Be it within government or outside government, be it the police or criminal assets agencies, it should have been known about. In our view, there must have been intelligence that made it known to somebody somewhere, yet it was allowed to happen. Questions linger about how it was allowed to happen.”
“<BR /> <BR />At the same time, we appeal to the courts and to the Lord Chief Justice, Sir Declan Morgan, who has a particular interest in and commitment to dealing with waste crime, to introduce sentencing guidelines that see those who are culpable and responsible for crime, organised crime and waste crime on the island of Ireland face the stiffest penalties rather than our ending up with what happened when I was Minister of the Environment. A case was brought before the courts, and a proceeds of crime order was made of nearly £120,000, which was significant at the time. Those responsible handed that money over through their lawyers that afternoon, basically sending the message to the DOE and to government that this was a minor business cost for which a cheque could be written over a lunch break and handed to the state.”
“There has to be a public profile around all of this. The evidence is that 95% of the cases that go through the assets agency in the North are dealt with in a secret, private arrangement with no public awareness or publicity. All of that has to be consistent with civil liberty and due process protections. We need to recognise that, in addition to fuel laundering, illegal alcohol and the illegal importation of cigarettes need dedicated action.”
“The last time that he spoke about this in the Assembly, that had not been established. We have to ensure that individuals who are pursued by the crime agencies, North and South, are not allowed to enter into private deals with the state, that are approved by the courts, in respect of some of their assets.”
“Information must be shared in an increasing way with the population, so that they are aware of what has happened and, critically, give information and intelligence to the authorities in order to face down those responsible. We need to learn from the assets regime in the South, where they have integrated the work of assets in a way that sees their assets agency having seconded into it members of the guards, the revenue commissioners and the Department of Social Protection. It is a completely independent statutory organisation. A joined-up approach in the NCA and the other organisations is essential. I ask the Minister to confirm whether, even now, there is a dedicated waste subgroup of the Organised Crime Task Force in order to recognise the profile and threat of environmental crime on the island of Ireland.”
“We have proposed our amendment to say to all the relevant authorities that, now that we have Patten thresholds of accountability when it comes to the NCA in its operations in Northern Ireland, the NCA has to demonstrate, be it about a waste dump up in Derry or a fuel plant in south Armagh, on the far side of the border or the many others that exist and have existed across Northern Ireland, that it will unambiguously face down any individual or organisation and ensure that nobody is off limits or enjoys a light touch. <BR /> <BR />In making that argument, we also have to box clever and think laterally when it comes to the issue of organised crime on the island of Ireland. Individuals, parties and organisations must face it down.”
“Nobody, it seems, knew anything at all about the single biggest illegal waste dump ever found in the history of these islands. We, on these Benches, do not believe that nobody in any of the relevant agencies — intelligence, policing, security, crime and the DOE — could not have known something about what was happening on the edge of the city of Derry. <BR /> <BR />I hope that all Members will support the amendment. It will demonstrate that they are unambiguously opposed to what happened outside Derry and what is happening in south Armagh. Some people, since the decision on the NCA, are still fence-sitting, to put it at its mildest, when it comes to the issue of organised crime and the tackling of it on the island of Ireland.”
“In the spring of 2013, on the edge of the River Faughan, a mile or two from the River Foyle outside Derry, the single biggest illegal waste dump ever found in these islands was discovered, in respect of which three people are before the courts. It is estimated in court papers that £40 million or more of money and illegal assets were secured by those who have been alleged responsible for that offence. <BR /> <BR />The issue that arises from all that is this: when it came to the biggest illegal waste dump ever, which was found two miles outside Derry, the police did not know anything about it; the Serious Organised Crime Agency did not anything about it; and the Organised Crime Task Force, which is chaired by the Minister, did not know anything about it.”
“Having achieved Patten thresholds of accountability when it came to the NCA, we challenged it and the other authorities, because you begin to wonder what is actually going on. <BR /> <BR />The date of 5 November 2014 tells the tale. That was when the biggest diesel laundering operation ever found in these islands was discovered in south Armagh. It had been in existence for a year. HMRC removed 50 tons of waste. It was capable of producing 20 million litres of illicit fuel a year. The public purse had to clean it up. One person was arrested from that fuel laundering operation in south Armagh that had been going on for a year. On the same day, in County Monaghan, another plant, with the capacity to launder dyes out of about 20 million litres of oil every year, was closed down.”
“I welcome the motion and the fact that the legislation giving further powers to the NCA in Northern Ireland has passed all its Westminster stages. As a consequence of that, and because of this debate and the profile of all these issues, you would like to think that all the relevant authorities, North and South, will now apply their minds with greater effort to dealing with the issue of organised crime, including fuel laundering. <BR /> <BR />Through the negotiations on the NCA, the SDLP achieved Patten thresholds of accountability. In all those negotiations and since, we have said to all the relevant agencies, including the NCA, that they now have to demonstrate, decisively and unambiguously, that no individual or organisation is off-limits, protected or receives a light touch when it comes to organised crime on the island of Ireland.”
“I thank the Minister for that answer. In advance of the decision that you have taken on funding for foreign languages in our primary schools, was any assessment made of how that could work itself through as an impediment to our people competing in the global market, developing job skills or being able to take job opportunities in the longer term, never mind how it might impact on the creation of a modern, inclusive and open society?”
“I thank the Minister for giving way again. Going back to the point about the Committee, in a year's time, come what may, the Committees of this Chamber will be reconfigured because the Departments are being reconfigured. At that stage, welfare will be in the Department for Communities, which will be of a vast scale. I put it to the Minister that, in anticipation of the scale of that Department and of changes to welfare and pensions — and more is likely to come — that there is an argument that we should anticipate what will happen next year by having at this stage a Committee that looks at other DSD business and another Committee dedicated to looking at welfare and pensions.”
“Well we have dealt with that at a previous debate, when the argument was overwhelmingly against Mr Wilson's —”
“I thank the Minister for giving way. I have to say to him that, rather than sounding like a new broom, he now sounds like a broken duster. Putting that aside, would you not agree that it is a very strange place that, when your colleague to the right says that Labour were responsible and that that necessitated what had to be done, your party opposed the bedroom tax most of the time? Is the Member to your right —”
“That is the political point revolving round this legislation.”
“Its deputy editor — I think that he is the paper's chief political correspondent — wrote yesterday that the scenario that now faces us is Labour having insufficient numbers to form a Government in its own right, and with fewer numbers than the Tories. The scenario is that Labour comes second but goes into power, because, as he put it, the SNP, Plaid Cymru, the SDLP, the Greens and the remnants of the Lib Dems will bring it into government.”
“As you might have anticipated, I will conclude by replying to that question. If it is the case that there is an emergency Budget in the image of the hard Tory right on the far side of the election in May, and it is across the life of pensions, welfare and austerity, the obligation is to try to impede and block that and to vote it down. Given that it is highly likely that there will be a hung Parliament, it is not good enough for people to say, as they said last Friday, that there could be welfare negotiations after the election with a future Labour Government if there is no future Labour Government because the votes are not there to bring it into power. Mr Speaker, I have never in my life quoted the 'Daily Mirror' in the Chamber —”
“They will have a replay of an election in May and an urgent emergency Budget in June, which will be about accelerating austerity in the early years.”
“I will in a second. <BR /> <BR />We should have more oversight of what is passing through the House today and what is yet to pass in terms of the ambitions of the Chancellor as he competes to become the next Prime Minister. They will all be outdoing each other. They will all be saying, "I can go further on austerity, pension change and welfare reform than you can. I'm the true Tory. I'm the successor to Margaret Thatcher". I certainly get the sense that the Chancellor very much views himself in the image of Margaret Thatcher, so those are not idle words. These things could come to pass in the next 50 days, because, as we have said in this House before, on the far side of the Westminster election, if the Tories are re-elected, they will do what they did in 2010.”
“It is my view and that of the SDLP that, just as welfare and austerity are in play, pensions will be in play with the next Tory Government — if there is a next Tory Government. All that confirms that we should have more oversight —”
“Just as we have seen significant changes through Hutton and the adjustment of the entitlement age for a pension, I anticipate that, if the Tory Government are re-elected, we have not seen the half of it, not just with austerity, whereby the Chancellor is making it very clear that the scale of austerity as he sees it will be greater over the lifetime of the next Government than it was with the previous Government. <BR /> <BR />On the scale of welfare reductions, he has put into the Budget statement — it was not just comments or briefings to the media or statements issued through his office but was in the Budget statement — £12 billion more of welfare cuts. He has already declared his ambition to reduce the tax burden on individuals without explaining how that will be funded.”
“I think that a lot of people came back from that trip saying that there was merit in having oversight of welfare change in the Assembly. I broaden the argument, Minister: given the scale of pension change through not just your Ministry but DFP, there is a need for dedicated oversight of welfare and pension change and provision arising from this Bill and the other legislation. <BR /> <BR />The third general point that I make is that pensions and changes to pensions are very much on the radar of the Conservative Government. Although last week's Budget was substantially the reheating of the Chancellor's autumn statement, there were still further pension changes in the Budget narrative.”
“<BR /> <BR />A trip was organised, I think, last Friday by the Northern Ireland Council for Voluntary Action (NICVA) to Glasgow, where it and various other organisations involved in welfare advice and provision met members of the welfare rights community in Scotland and people in and around the dedicated Welfare Reform Committee of the Scottish Parliament, which is a model that we urged the House to adopt at Consideration Stage and Further Consideration Stage of the Welfare Reform Bill. It met people involved in the delivery of welfare and the oversight of welfare change in Scotland. I think that all the parties were invited to attend. We certainly sent one of our senior policy people on that trip to get better informed about the roll-out of welfare provision in Scotland.”
“We argued at Consideration Stage and Further Consideration Stage of the Welfare Reform Bill for a dedicated Committee of the House to interrogate welfare matters. Given the scale of pension changes that are already in law and those that are going to be in law following the passage of the Bill, we again make the argument — we are going to write to the relevant authorities in the Assembly in this regard — to have a Committee of the House to look at welfare and pensions.”
“For reading across to this legislation, that is relevant, because it raises the age levels at which people will be entitled to their pension and covers various circumstances around their entitlement to a pension. That will then make even more acute the fact that there are certain categories of workers who, because of the nature of their work, are under particular physical, mental or emotional strain and, as such, might deserve some protection. However, in the Bill before us, the time at which they will get their state pension is to be adjusted. As a consequence, a spike will legitimately arise for people and their pensions where they are seeking early retirement because of ill health. How does that work itself through to any and all of this? <BR /> <BR />My next comment will not necessarily surprise the Minister.”
“At the cuts action day on 13 March, members of the Fire Brigades Union spoke to me and my colleagues about the provisions in that pensions legislation as they affects firefighters. Provision was made in that legislation, Minister, to do some further review and assessment — the full details of which escape my mind at the moment — of other categories of workers that might be protected when it came to general pension provisions, given the nature of their work. I think that firefighters and police officers were protected under that legislation but that nurses, porters and teachers, who work in very strenuous physical and other environments, were not. <BR /> <BR />Should the debate go on beyond Question Time, my question is this: where are we with the review provisions that were in that legislation, if my mind is correct on that point?”
“As Members will be aware, at the Consideration Stage and Further Consideration Stage of that legislation, with a lot of drafting help from the Bill Office, amendments were tabled and approved by the Assembly, and then further amendments were tabled after backroom negotiations between DFP and ourselves and other parties. Those amendments were aimed at mitigating the effects of pension change for appropriate categories of worker.”
“Consequently, we will support them, but there are some broader comments that I want to make, if I am allowed, in respect of where we are in relation to all of this, noting that we reserve the right, as a party, to table amendments at Further Consideration Stage, subject to conversations with the party and Mrs Kelly. <BR /> <BR />There are points that I ask the Minister to take on board, although, in part, they are really the responsibility of DFP. It was not long ago that the Assembly passed legislation in respect of pensions globally, which included a lot of the Hutton proposals.”
“I apologise for being delayed. I was at another meeting and missed the beginning of the debate. I missed the new broom and his contributions on this occasion. I also apologise on behalf of Dolores Kelly, who has pressing personal responsibilities and is unable to attend the Assembly today. Consequently, I am speaking, no doubt inadequately, in her place. <BR /> <BR />I should, as all Members should, declare an interest, because I am far too close to 65, 66 or 67, and some of these provisions will affect me. I have on my left one of the youngest MLAs, if not the youngest, for whom the retirement age will no doubt be 75, 76 or 77. Maybe we should all declare a bit of an interest in this matter. <BR /> <BR />I am advised by Dolores Kelly that the amendments are technical, as was indicated by the Chair of the Committee.”
“Otherwise, this is good work that will sit on a shelf.”
“The report confirms that Spend to Save was unanimously welcomed and approved for publication. I note that one size does not fit all, but there were, nonetheless, a lot of examples in the report of best practice. Can the Minister outline how his Department, and other relevant Departments, will use a report that was unanimously welcomed and approved to identify other best practice that could be mainstreamed into the life of government here in advance of the next comprehensive spending review (CSR), which, as we know, if the Tories get their way, will be even more severe over the next four years than it has been over the last four? What will your Department, and other relevant Departments, do to take forward a report that was unanimously welcomed, and will there be subsequent reports to the Assembly?”
“The Minister will be aware of the efforts that were made to protect the consumer interest by ensuring that the future of the Consumer Council was not put in jeopardy, as some had proposed. Will he indicate what consultations his Department and Translink undertook with the Consumer Council in advance of the decision that has been referred to?”
“My view is that the Equality Commission has overreached in this matter, but I also believe that any legislation in respect of a conscience clause is overreaching. That said, do you agree with me, First Minister, that the Equality Commission would be better advised to spend its time and resources dealing with the structural long-term male Catholic unemployment, which has been unchanged for decades, and the increasing long-term male Protestant unemployment that is now witnessed in too many of our communities in Northern Ireland?”
“So, you want to have respectful conversations about this matter. Would the respectful thing not be to withdraw your Bill in order to have a conversation, perhaps in the terms that you want to talk about? By the way, whilst my Catholic faith informs my values, my party constitution informs my judgements when it comes to political matters.”
“<BR /> <BR />We are supporting the motion and rejecting the amendment because the words that are used in any possible draft Bill, and the attitudes that in the past have informed some in this House when it comes to the treatment of those who are LGBT, leads us to conclude that, whilst the amendment talks about respectful consideration of these issues, at the heart of the proposed conscience clause is something that is not respectful and does not have respectful consideration of those in our society who are LGBT.”
“Long-term male Catholic unemployment is virtually unchanged after decades, and long-term Protestant adult unemployment is increasing. We suggest to the Equality Commission that, whatever about the Ashers case, where questions do arise about its judgement, it should apply its judgement and its mind to dealing with the much wider equality agenda, including long-term male Catholic and Protestant unemployment.”
“The Good Friday Agreement created dedicated mechanisms to deal with equality, human rights, policing and justice. Why? As I have oft-times said on the Floor of this Chamber, because as the late Frank Wright, an academic at Queen's, said, national conflicts, when they are fully evolved, revolve around issues of law, order and justice. That is why the Good Friday Agreement put at its heart mechanisms to deal with issues of law, order, justice and equality, including the creation of the Equality Commission. It has been long our view, and the Equality Commission knows this, that we do not believe that it has been punching to its weight when it comes to its general duties in respect of Northern Ireland. <BR /> <BR />I will give you one example.”
“<BR /> <BR />Secondly, we want to see a single equality Bill because in a society like ours, where too many people still cling to a past that is already dying, you require good law and tough enforcement to bring about the seismic shifts in how our society conducts its affairs. We know that from our history, which demonstrates that often only when there is good law and tough enforcement do you bring about societal changes. Whether it comes to equality, discrimination, policing or other matters, strong legislation and enforcement bring about better society in a society that resists change. We urge the House to accept the motion because it speaks so strongly in respect of a single equality Bill. <BR /> <BR />Thirdly, we say to the Equality Commission that it is not living up to all its responsibilities.”
“<BR /> <BR />The DUP does not seek to amend the part of the Alliance motion that regrets that age discrimination legislation that covers under-16s is not to be introduced. If it is the case that they do not oppose that part of the motion, I invite the DUP to confirm on the Floor before the vote at 4.00 pm not only that it accepts the principle that legislation should be extended to the under-16s but that it will accept the practice, and that OFMDFM should bring back to the Assembly legislation in that regard. You cannot on the one hand call on the Assembly to accept that part of the motion that the Alliance Party has written, because that is what you are doing by not amending it, and not on the other hand go back and change the legislation that you are proposing in the future.”
“Whether Mr Lyttle did or did not spend 60% of his time on the conscience clause, and Mr Givan spent 100% of his time on the conscience clause, I intend to spend my time trying to deal with the totality of the amendment. <BR /> <BR />In doing so, between now and 4.00 pm when the House divides, can we have some clarity, from the DUP in particular, in relation to the issue in the motion about the failure to introduce age discrimination legislation? At Question Time I think last week, or certainly within the last two weeks, the junior Minister Jennifer McCann confirmed that it was Sinn Féin's wish that the age discrimination legislation should extend to those under 16 and that they hoped, in time, for that to be realised.”
“Whilst I note what you say, Minister, in terms of what your own Department's officials are doing, it is three weeks today until the new councils go live. Is it not the case that there is going to be a free-for-all in many councils around Northern Ireland, given the failure of the regulations to pass and the reckless conduct of the DUP in that regard?”
“I obviously support all the comments made by the Committee Chair. I only want to make the point that we have in or around 40 sitting weeks before the end of the mandate. Given the time frame and the points that the Chair has just made in respect of the reconfiguration of the Departments, that certain functions relating to children will be transferred to one or more than one of the new Departments, it is urgent that we get this through the business of the Committee and the House. It will require maximum effort from OFMDFM to ensure that there is a fair wind and every opportunity for the Bill to come back to the Floor before the next mandate.”
“I thank the First Minister for his statement. Which new Department and which new Minister will in future be responsible for strategic planning and taking article 31 decisions? Given that you have said that the numbers of staff in OFMDFM will be significantly reduced, can you indicate, in round terms, whether that will be 40%, 50% or 60%? Will that extend to the number of special advisers — SpAds — that OFMDFM enjoys?”
“On a point of order, Mr Speaker. I ask you to check the Hansard record of my earlier comments about investment in west Belfast and in south and east Belfast. You will see what the Hansard record says, as opposed to what other people claim was said.”
“That is not the democracy we believe in, and that is not the approach we will adopt.”
“<BR /> <BR />I very much welcome, therefore, the intervention of the Member for East Belfast, which has crystallised some of the discussions that we need to have. However, let me tell Mr Robinson this: the SDLP will argue these issues from the basis that we have outlined tonight, and we will not just make an argument and accept that the bigger parties will prevail.”
“Of course I agree with that. Indeed, in response to Mr Allister's narrow-minded approach, I read into the record the health profile of my constituency of West Belfast, which includes the Shankill and extends to Lagmore. The profile of my constituency for coronary heart disease, diabetes, pulmonary disease and mental health is, if I recall correctly, the worst or second-worst in Northern Ireland. In those circumstances, the strategy for dealing with health issues involves dealing with job issues, and part of the strategy for dealing with job issues is saying that, if land is zoned for industrial use, and if business can go into the harbour estate and south and east Belfast, welcome as that is, the same applies to my constituency and all other areas of disadvantage in Northern Ireland.”
“You spread it; you do not concentrate it. In the SDLP's view, that is part of the conversation about corporation tax.”
“Well, it is not in the Budget. The glass should be full. <BR /> <BR />I note all the initiatives that you referred to, and I do not discount, deny or diminish those good interventions in any shape or form. Ministers cannot, however, deny that there is an opportunity to regenerate areas of need with industrial lands, be it Strabane or somewhere else. I remember Mr McElduff asking a question of the Enterprise Minister about protecting land zoned in his constituency, and, on the back of that, I asked the same question about my constituency. Can the Minister not develop a strategy to bring FDI and other potential investors and employers to areas of disadvantage? Given the multiple reasons for disadvantage, the key to regeneration and the undoing of deprivation is jobs investment and factories. That is what the Southern strategy tells us.”
“I do not mind whether you call it Digital Derry or Digital Londonderry. I am relaxed. If you want to rename it, I will not have any issue, and I do not think that our party will have any issue. The answer, of course, to your question about whether the glass is half full or half empty is that the glass —”