Brian Kingston
North Belfast · Democratic Unionist Party · Northern Ireland
“As a DUP member of the Justice Committee, I welcome the Victims and Witnesses of Crime Bill moving to Second Stage. As other Members have mentioned, we are currently handling three substantial Bills at Justice Committee: the Justice Bill, the amendments on which we completed voting on earlier today after seven days of debate; the Criminal…”
“We recognise, however, that the commissioner is not to be an appeal mechanism for when, for example, the outcome of a trial is considered to be unsatisfactory, such as when an unduly lenient sentence is handed down.”
“The special measures include ensuring that an alleged perpetrator is not allowed to cross-examine the victim of the alleged offence, including in sexual crime cases. <BR /> <BR />We heard comments from the Sinn Féin Member for Mid Ulster in praise of her party's support for victims' human rights.”
“We are aware that the trial process often focuses more on the defendant who is charged with an offence than it does on the victims of the alleged crime. Victims must be at the heart of the justice system, not peripheral to it.”
“We welcome the fact that, through the legislation, the post will be formally established and regulated. <BR /> <BR />The principal aim of the commissioner is to promote the interests of victims and witnesses. The commissioner is intended to have a strategic role rather than to become involved in individual cases. Indeed, clause 8 states:”
“Although the Minister notified us a week ago that he would make his statement, it was disappointing that we received the text of it less than an hour before he was scheduled to give it in the Chamber, which did not help us with scrutiny.”
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“We are now halfway through that 20-year designation. Three of those Ministers are still Assembly Members. The zone aims to improve coordination and cooperation between different government initiatives, with the aim of providing improved wrap-around support for children and young people. <BR /> <BR />I welcome the fact that the Education Minister is present for this debate. I thank him for finding the time to attend. He may wish to make reference to announcements that he made just last week that are relevant to this topic. The first was the confirmation of capital new build funding for Glenwood Primary School, which is the largest of the eight primary schools in the greater Shankill area.”
“I am very pleased to speak about this topic, and I thank the Member for West Belfast for bringing it to the Assembly. I will focus my comments on the greater Shankill part of West Belfast, which, obviously, I know well, having been a councillor for the area for 12 years on Belfast City Council and a community worker in the area for many years. I also declare an interest as a long-serving governor of Belfast Boys' Model School and Malvern Primary School. <BR /> <BR />A great deal of effort goes into supporting educational achievement in the greater Shankill area. As Members may be aware, in 2014, the Greater Shankill Partnership asked the Northern Ireland Departments to recognise the designation of the greater Shankill area as a children and young people's action zone. I attended the launch of that here, as did five Stormont Ministers.”
“The Member made a point that I wish to emphasise. Listening to the comments from the other Members who said, "Oh, no, the legislation would not mean this. It would not mean the prosecution of people sincerely giving pastoral support" —.”
“Yes. This is the last sentence. <BR /> <BR />Same-sex-attracted individuals should be able to receive the personal support that they request in sincerity without the risk of criminalising others.”
“In summary, we are completely in support of banning the harmful, coercive and abusive aspects of conversion therapy, and that is clearly reflected in our amendment. However, those aspects must be defined, something that the original motion fails to do. We also want to see religious liberty and freedom being respected.”
“The absurdity of the wording in the motion is that, in its application, a heterosexual person seeking prayers and guidance on their sexuality or sexual practice could receive them from their minister. However, a homosexual person seeking the same could be leading that minister into committing a prosecutable offence. Essentially, the motion, if it were made into law, could also be used to criminalise any minister or priest teaching or communicating within the confines of a church building what is simply a mainstream Christian sex ethic.”
“That is extremely vague. It does not deal with, for example, the case of a same-sex-attracted person of faith who wishes to remain celibate and asks their minister to pray for them. Our amendment seeks to provide protection for the individual seeking support and the person who provides it. We must allow freedom of choice for anyone seeking pastoral support. That support must be equitable.”
“It provides no provision for, or recognition of, same-sex-attracted individuals who actively and honestly seek guidance or support. The document also states:”
“In fact, that could apply even to parents who provide orthodox religious guidance to their children. According to the report that is referenced in the motion, the definition of "conversion practice" is:”
“It does not make any distinction. We seek to ensure that support that is given genuinely and lovingly in response to someone seeking personal support cannot be misinterpreted and become the grounds for prosecution. It is possible to make some distinction, rather than including everything in one category. <BR /> <BR />Genuine pastoral support is wholly different from the abusive practices that I outlined. In such cases, the individuals are not being coerced, forced or pressurised to seek support; they are, of their own volition, sincerely seeking personal and spiritual assistance. The motion would mean that those affirming mainstream Christian teaching, and the faith position of other religions, on same-sex attraction could well be prosecuted and handed a significant fine or, even, a prison term.”
“The problem is that the motion calls for:”
“The pastoral support that I am referring to is genuine pastoral support; it is not a course of therapy that, in some countries, is dressed up to look similar to clinical therapeutic intervention.”
“Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. I trust that no Member of the Assembly would ever defend any form of abuse or coercion of any individual. Any such practice should, rightly, be condemned. When we examine conversion therapy worldwide, we see clearly that it has included coercive and abusive practices being inflicted on people. There is no justification for that, and there never will be. Those extreme examples of conversion therapy are already illegal in the UK. There is legislation in place to prosecute those offences. <BR /> <BR />It is also clear that there are instances of individuals from a faith background who approach friends, parents, ministers or their small group for pastoral support and deeply personal conversation on matters relating to their sexuality.”
“Indeed. I beg to move the following amendment”
“Thank you, Mr Speaker. No Member of this —.”
“Glenwood is one of 15 schools across Northern Ireland that are included in the package of capital investments that the Education Minister announced last week that can now proceed to procurement and construction following the recent Stormont Budget. <BR /> <BR />I have no doubt that that investment in the education of our children will be warmly welcomed in every case. We know, of course, that many other schools are waiting to receive their share of capital investment in due course, but I am delighted for the Glenwood school community that its time is now.”
“However, we can now look forward to the construction contract going out to tender so that works can commence. I record my thanks to former Education Ministers Michelle McIlveen and Peter Weir, who also advanced the case for Glenwood, and I make special mention of former elected representatives William Humphrey MLA and Nigel Dodds MP, who were champions for the investment alongside local councillors. <BR /> <BR />It is tremendous that the school community can now look forward to not only the long-awaited capital investment and to all the disruption that will have to be managed but more so to the prospect of a 21st-century premises for what is a hub school for the Shankill community.”
“<BR /> <BR />Securing capital investment has various stages and is a frustratingly slow process, but, today, I acknowledge and congratulate all those who have supported the case for Glenwood and brought us to this stage, where capital funding has been approved. I acknowledge and congratulate in particular the school principal, Mr Wesley Wright, and his predecessor, Mr Terry Leathem; the school board of governors under its chairperson, Mrs Jacqueline Weir; Education Minister, Paul Givan, and his predecessors; and officials in the Department and the Education Authority. <BR /> <BR />To give an idea of timescale, in 2013, the then Education Minister, John O'Dowd, announced that Glenwood was approved for rebuild. Members will note that it has taken over 11 years for capital funding to be approved.”
“I warmly welcome the announcement last week by Education Minister, Paul Givan, of long-awaited funding for the capital new build and refurbishment of Glenwood Primary School on the Shankill Road in Belfast. Glenwood is the largest primary school in the greater Shankill area, with three classes in each year group from P1 to P7, making a total school enrolment of over 500 pupils. The original school premises, which date back to 1928, are listed as being of architectural interest. They are long overdue for refurbishment and new build. Along with DUP colleagues, over the years, I have accompanied various Education Ministers who visited the school to view the conditions and look at the need for investment.”
“<BR /> <BR />The Bill also provides the Department with the power to make regulations to remove or reduce the lower limit of the qualifying earnings band so that contributions can be calculated from the first pound of earnings rather than from amounts over the current lower earnings limit of £6,240. That will enable more people to build up bigger pension pots and support them in doing so from an earlier age. As has been said, it will particularly benefit those with part-time jobs. <BR /> <BR />As with the previous matter on defective premises, this Bill will bring us into line with the legislation in the rest of the United Kingdom, which was passed last year. The DUP supports the Bill, and we trust that it will have full support from the Assembly.”
“Automatic enrolment in workplace pensions is an important enhancement of employers' responsibility and provision for employees. It includes the requirement for a minimum employer contribution to their workers' pensions. That, in turn, incentivises employees to invest in their pension fund in order to receive the additional contribution from their employer. It is only too easy for younger adults to neglect paying into their pension pot when their pension seems so far away in time and they have so many other things that they wish to do with their money. It is right that the Bill provides the Department with the power to make regulations to reduce the lower age limit for automatic enrolment.”
“The Assembly will, therefore, have further proposed legislation to consider in due course, but, for now, the short Bill before the House should be approved.”
“I commend the Communities Minister, Gordon Lyons, for stepping forward to take the lead on the matter when it was previously unclear which Department should take responsibility. It is to be welcomed that the Minister has ensured that progress can and will be made. <BR /> <BR />It is relevant to mention other policy decisions and processes where building safety is being advanced locally. In February 2022, the Executive tasked the Department of Finance with establishing an expert panel to investigate the safety of high-rise buildings in Northern Ireland. The expert panel's report and recommendations were published in December 2023, and, in January 2024, the residential building safety division was established within the Department for Communities to implement the 15 recommendations of the report and advance policy and legislative changes.”
“The short Bill that the Minister has brought before us has just four clauses, will address and remove that disparity and will align Northern Ireland with the periods of liability that apply in England and Wales, namely 30 years retrospectively and 15 years prospectively. <BR /> <BR />We need a wider package of legislation to advance in Northern Ireland, similar to the Building Safety Act 2022 in England and Wales. However, officials have advised that, realistically, the time for such major legislation to be prepared and completed would take us into the next Assembly mandate. Therefore it is right that we address this specific matter, which was highlighted by a recent court case.”
“As Members have heard, and are aware, an investigation led by Dame Judith Hackitt, following the Grenfell Tower tragedy in 2017, led to a major review of the safety of high-rise residential buildings across the United Kingdom. In England and Wales, that fed into the Building Safety Act 2022, which established a 30-year retrospective building liability period and a 15-year liability period for buildings completed after its enactment. In contrast, in Northern Ireland, we are still operating under the Defective Premises (Northern Ireland) Order 1975, which limits the period of liability to just six years.”
“On 25 April, the full Executive Committee agreed to the introduction of the Defective Premises Bill and to the proposal to use the accelerated passage process to ensure that the Bill clears the Assembly as quickly as possible. The DUP stands by that position, which is that the Bill should progress under accelerated passage. I will say a little more about the matter in the Second Stage debate to follow.”
“In that joint statement, the Ministers recognised the need to address the disparity between the legislative position in Northern Ireland on defective premises compared with that in the rest of the United Kingdom, and to do so at the earliest possible opportunity, subject to Executive and Assembly approval.”
“Members will be aware of the joint statement issued on 19 March 2024 by three Ministers — the Minister of Agriculture, Environment and Rural Affairs, Andrew Muir; the Minister of Finance, Caoimhe Archibald; and the Minister for Communities, Gordon Lyons — between them representing three political parties in the Executive.”
“As a DUP member of the Committee for Communities, along with my colleague Maurice Bradley MLA, I express our sincere condolences to the Committee Chairman, Colm Gildernew MLA, and his family circle on the tragic death of his nephew Fiachra at the weekend. We express our deepest sympathy to the Chairman and his family on the sudden loss of that young man's life. <BR /> <BR />On the legislative matter that is before us, we welcome the proposal to progress this short Bill by accelerated passage. Hopefully, we will now do so.”
“Following on from that question, as the First Minister will be aware, the Northern Ireland Executive currently have a presence in Belgium, in China and in the United States of America. Will the First Minister indicate what other places are being considered as key markets for economic opportunity or for strengthening our diplomatic relations?”
“Does the Minister agree that we need a longer-term strategy for hosting sporting events in Northern Ireland, recognising our proven track record over recent years, which includes the World Police and Fire Games, the Giro d'Italia, the UEFA Women's Under-19 Championship and, this summer, the men's UEFA Under-19 Championship?”
“I appreciate that it is a matter for the Policing Board, but the Minister will be aware that it is a matter of great concern for communities that will lose the front desk of their local police station, such as at Tennent Street. Indeed, I understand that Musgrave Street will be the only station, not just in Belfast but in many surrounding areas, with a front desk for the public to call in. Will the Minister, along with those with direct operational responsibility, monitor the waiting times at Musgrave Street and, if possible, explore whether some call-in function by arrangement can be made for people handing in 11/1 parade notifications or those required to sign in accordance with court bail conditions?”
“I thank the Minister for his statement. Just last week, those of us who are members of the Communities Committee were discussing the need to explore new models that will deliver much-needed homes. I welcome the Minister's announcement for a new supply of affordable, intermediate-rent homes via financial transactions capital. Does he think that there will be scope to go beyond the initial 300 homes, given the housing pressures?”
“I thank the Minister for his reply and for the attention that he has given to the matter. I am sure that those in rural communities, in particular, would appreciate a written response in due course, perhaps to the Committee for Agriculture, Environment and Rural Affairs, on his efforts on the matter.”
“How important is it to be respectful of our various cultures and identities in Northern Ireland, particularly as we move into the main parading season?”
“— that can increase outcomes delivery with the same financial input. <BR /> <BR />Again, we ask that our amendment be supported. It does not change in any substantial way the purpose of the motion.”
“Kate Nicholl reminded us of the need for a transformation of services —”
“I have to say that, after listening to a couple of his colleagues, it remains to be seen where the SDLP will pitch itself and whether it wants just to be critical all the time or genuinely wants to recognise where progress is being made and play a more positive role. It is easy always to be like Mr McGrath and Mr McCrossan and be a double act of continuous criticism, but we want to see more positivity in the workings of the Assembly. <BR /> <BR />I welcome Doug Beattie's confirmation that the Ulster Unionist Party will support the DUP amendment and the fact that he recognises that it does not change the timescale, which is the critical action in the motion. Nick Mathison referenced the difficult financial circumstances in which we are all trying to operate and said that Northern Ireland is not funded at a level commensurate with need.”
“As Members will be aware, the Education Minister announced two weeks ago his plans to support additional SEN units in schools, as well as building a number of new, dedicated SEN schools. The Communities Minister will shortly bring forward a housing supply strategy, which, I know, is a priority for all Members, not just those of us on the Communities Committee. <BR /> <BR />I will comment briefly on some of the points made during the debate. Matthew O'Toole accepted that progress had been made on defective premises legislation. He said that the SDLP wants to provide positive opposition.”
“My colleague the deputy First Minister pointed out that, when the SDLP was a leading party in the Executive along with the Ulster Unionist Party, it took 21 months for them to get to the stage at which a draft Programme for Government was published, albeit there was a three-month suspension during the period. It is important to get such things right, to build consensus and to produce a focused and agreed set of priorities, but we are well down that route. <BR /> <BR />My party, the DUP, is seeking to prioritise the priorities set out in our manifesto for the Assembly election of 2022. We made a strong commitment to increasing childcare provision to help working families, and that has received increased resource in the Assembly Budget. We also committed to addressing the rising level of special educational need in our schools.”
“Indeed, that is expected to happen, with a view to consultation taking place over the summer months. Work is therefore continuing on the drafting of a Programme for Government. <BR /> <BR />It is fair to point out that the absence of a final document has not prevented the Executive from agreeing a Budget, settling pay disputes, as my colleague Harry Harvey set out, and establishing a public-sector transformation board. It is also fair to say that many countries take much longer to produce Programmes for Government, such as the Netherlands, Belgium and Italy, to name but a few.”
“<BR /> <BR />I hope that the leader of the Opposition will accept our factual amendment to the motion, in keeping with his party's pledge to provide positive opposition and not just negative criticism. Our amendment does not alter the key action point in the SDLP motion, which is:”
“Thank you, Madam Principal Deputy Speaker. I thank all Members for their contribution to the debate. <BR /> <BR />I ask Members to note that our amendment replaces just one clause of the Opposition party's motion and does so to highlight the fact that the Executive have agreed many of the key priorities for the mandate. Agreed priorities include childcare; reducing hospital waiting lists; tackling violence against women and girls; special educational needs; housing; developing a globally competitive economy; and the reform and transformation of public services. Indeed, a number of allocations in the recent Budget will enable delivery on those commitments, including £25 million for childcare and £300 million for reducing hospital waiting lists.”
“Has the Member read the amendment? It does not interfere with the timescale. It still commits to the draft Programme for Government being published by the summer, so it asks only for recognition of the work that has been advanced. It does not change the timescale or the specific action in the motion.”
“I listened to what the Member said about arms sales and support for Israel. Does the Member think that the RAF was wrong to join in the defence of Israel when 300 rockets were fired at it from Iran and other states?”
“While civilian deaths in Gaza are appalling and deeply regrettable, it is Hamas that is responsible for many of them, because it has no regard for the safety of the population. <BR /> <BR />It is regrettable that the motion was not intended to unite opinion in the Assembly. Instead, it was worded in such a way that it would divide the Assembly at this time, when talks continue towards the goal of a permanent end to hostilities.”
“The United Nations Secretary-General has also categorically stated:”
“The sponsors of the motion must be aware that, on 20 December last year, Israel proposed to stop fighting for a week in exchange for 40 hostages still held by Hamas but Hamas refused. The motion further fails to recognise that taking civilian hostages is a war crime and is explicitly prohibited by the Geneva convention. The sponsors and supporters of the motion fail to show any cognisance of the fact that Hamas, acting in a way that is completely contrary to the Geneva convention, is using the civilian people of the Gaza Strip as human shields. That is not conjecture; it has been accepted and reported by media organisations around the world and is fully supported by the NATO Strategic Communications Centre of Excellence, which has stated:”
“The motion rightly condemns Hamas but then wholly fails to acknowledge that the heinous and barbaric actions of Hamas on 7 October last year, when it massacred around 1,200 people in Israel and took more than 240 people hostage, would rightly demand a response from Israel. Hamas set out to provoke that reaction through a murderous onslaught that included extreme cases of sexual violence against women and girls. <BR /> <BR />The motion affirms support for a two-state solution but fails to recognise that one actor in the conflict, namely Hamas, will not accept a two-state solution. Hamas has, in its charter, the position that the state of Israel should not even exist. The motion calls for a ceasefire and for the release of hostages.”
“Every loss of innocent life is appalling, and that applies equally to innocent Israeli civilians, members of the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) and Palestinians. There can never be any defence for the loss of innocent life. <BR /> <BR />The motion before us is poorly worded and factually inaccurate. The International Court of Justice (ICJ) was asked by South Africa to consider whether Israel had committed genocide and did not find that to be the case. The ICJ instead ruled that Israel should follow the Geneva convention on how military actions should be conducted. On that basis, we cannot support a motion that is, essentially, inaccurate; in fact, Mr O'Toole accepted that inaccuracy in his speech.”