Brian Kingston
North Belfast · Democratic Unionist Party · Northern Ireland
“As a DUP member of the Justice Committee, I welcome the Victims and Witnesses of Crime Bill moving to Second Stage. As other Members have mentioned, we are currently handling three substantial Bills at Justice Committee: the Justice Bill, the amendments on which we completed voting on earlier today after seven days of debate; the Criminal…”
“We recognise, however, that the commissioner is not to be an appeal mechanism for when, for example, the outcome of a trial is considered to be unsatisfactory, such as when an unduly lenient sentence is handed down.”
“The special measures include ensuring that an alleged perpetrator is not allowed to cross-examine the victim of the alleged offence, including in sexual crime cases. <BR /> <BR />We heard comments from the Sinn Féin Member for Mid Ulster in praise of her party's support for victims' human rights.”
“We are aware that the trial process often focuses more on the defendant who is charged with an offence than it does on the victims of the alleged crime. Victims must be at the heart of the justice system, not peripheral to it.”
“We welcome the fact that, through the legislation, the post will be formally established and regulated. <BR /> <BR />The principal aim of the commissioner is to promote the interests of victims and witnesses. The commissioner is intended to have a strategic role rather than to become involved in individual cases. Indeed, clause 8 states:”
“Although the Minister notified us a week ago that he would make his statement, it was disappointing that we received the text of it less than an hour before he was scheduled to give it in the Chamber, which did not help us with scrutiny.”
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“We are mindful that we have other finance-focused bodies, such as the Northern Ireland Audit Office and the Public Accounts Committee. The primary difference between them and the Fiscal Council is that they primarily look back at how money has been spent, whereas the Fiscal Council's primary focus is on looking forward at Budgets that have been set and on preparing a Budget assessment report for each financial year and, at least once a year, a fiscal sustainability report. We in the DUP are therefore content that the Fiscal Council plays an important independent scrutiny role, bringing expert scrutiny to future Budgets. That enhances transparency and accountability for taxpayers' reassurance. <BR /> <BR />The clear protection of the Fiscal Council's independence is an important feature of the legislation.”
“As a DUP member of the Committee for Finance, I welcome the fact that the Bill has reached its Final Stage. As other Members have said, the Fiscal Council was a key commitment in the New Decade, New Approach deal. It was established in March 2021 to provide independent scrutiny of Northern Ireland's public finances. The legislation will put it on a statutory footing. <BR /> <BR />At Committee Stage, we took evidence from equivalent bodies in other parts of the UK and in the Republic of Ireland to ensure that there was a clear understanding of the additional role of the Fiscal Council and that it would be independent. <BR /> <BR />The DUP will always question the establishment of more arm's-length bodies, given the cost to the public purse.”
“I join others in condemning the disgraceful violence and intimidation of the past week. I will continue to express support and appreciation for our healthcare workers who have come here from overseas. Has the Minister had time to engage with any of the representative and support bodies for international colleagues, such as the Northern Ireland Indian Nurses Forum?”
“What key steps has the Minister set out to improve water quality in Belfast lough without stopping all development from Ballyholme to Islandmagee?”
“I also appeal for the rejection of violence.”
“The authorities, North and South, must do more to secure our borders, and officials at Dublin Airport must stop exporting illegal immigrants on the bus to Belfast and telling them to claim asylum when they arrive here. There must be greater cooperation between the UK's Border Force and the gardaí in those matters.”
“There are and must be strict conditions on work and study visas in the UK. We greatly value those who come here legally with permission to work in our health service, our public services, our factories and our businesses. It is disgraceful that some of those people and places have been targeted in violent attacks over the past week. We say again that it is utterly wrong and shameful. The DUP has, however, constantly highlighted the problems with uncontrolled illegal immigration. People are outraged at the numbers crossing the English Channel in small boats, without permission and then claiming the right to stay. Our equivalent is the number of people travelling across the open border from the Republic of Ireland without permission and claiming the right to stay. <BR /> <BR />The UK and Ireland are not part of the Schengen area.”
“<BR /> <BR />The attack on Stephen Ogilvie has shone a spotlight on the issue of uncontrolled, illegal immigration and the abuse of the asylum system and, in particular, on the lack of security at the border between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland — between the UK and the EU. The Sudanese man who was charged with the attempted murder of Stephen had travelled through Egypt, France and the Republic of Ireland, which are three safe countries, before he claimed asylum in Belfast, which is in the United Kingdom. That is an abuse of the system. He arrived here claiming that he needed a place of safety and our hospitality, but he went on to be charged with attempted murder. If he is convicted, the DUP will demand that he be deported and lose his leave to remain. <BR /> <BR />Every country must have control of its borders.”
“It has been a long week for everyone in Northern Ireland, and more so for those who have suffered negative life-changing events. We think of Stephen Ogilvie and the barbaric attack on him last Monday night. We continue to pray for Stephen's recovery and for his family. We think of the people whose homes, cars and businesses were attacked and targeted because of their race and others who have suffered violence that was totally wrong. We think of the people who are now living in fear, afraid to go out, afraid to go to work and afraid of what will happen overnight when they go to sleep. I visited many parts of North Belfast where terrible violence occurred last week. I have spoken to residents and others who have felt the impact of it, and I have helped them in any way that I can.”
“<BR /> <BR />Briefly, on amendment No 69 and amendment No 127, which inserts schedule 5 on the police barred list and police advisory list, again, as the Chair mentioned, the wording did not come to the Committee in sufficient time to enable members to reach an agreed position. However, the DUP welcomes the introduction of the police barred list and police advisory list, and alignment with such lists elsewhere in the UK. We also support that those regulations would apply to other relevant statutory agencies, such as the international airport constabulary, the harbour police and support staff. <BR /> <BR />In closing, we are content to support amendment Nos 76, 77 and 131.”
“I speak as the relative of two serving police officers who were murdered by the IRA during the Troubles. <BR /> <BR />We are concerned that amendment No 68, relating to disciplinary proceedings against former police officers, would be out of keeping with arrangements for other public-sector staff. As highlighted by the Ulster Unionist Member for North Antrim, the previous Police Ombudsman was adjudged by a High Court judge to have exceeded her powers in making claims of so-called "collusive behaviour" in Troubles incidents. We are concerned that powers like those could be used as an alternative means by which to conduct inquiries into police officer conduct during the difficult circumstances of the Troubles.”
“I rise as a DUP member of the Justice Committee to comment on the group 4 amendments. Most of the debate has been about amendment No 68 on disciplinary proceedings concerning former police officers. As the Committee Chair mentioned earlier, the Justice Committee did not receive the wording in good time, so could not achieve an agreed Committee position. As DUP members, we do, of course, support police accountability and arrangements for that through the Policing Board and the Police Ombudsman's office. However, as you have heard, we are also very mindful of the incredibly difficult circumstances in which PSNI and, previously, RUC officers served during the Troubles and the ongoing level of threat that officers have to live with today. Let us not forget that.”
“The response should be fact-based, with statutory and community agencies working together.”
“<BR /> <BR />There may well be questions for other statutory services about the circumstances in which the attacker was living here and whether he was meant to be receiving supervision. We need to hear honesty — not half-truths but the full information. <BR /> <BR />There is great anxiety. I visited Kinnaird Avenue this morning. Obviously, it is covered with media. I also visited the lower Old Park community, on the other side of Girdwood. I am told that there was no trouble there last night. It was not an interface-related issue. What are the circumstances? We need to know the facts. This is a time for assurance. We are concerned that people may try to cause other people who are not connected with the incident to suffer consequences, and we make the appeal that that should not happen.”
“We hope and pray that he will survive and recover from those horrific injuries. We think of his family at this time. A 30-year-old man from Somalia has been arrested. The police tell us that they are not seeking anyone else in connection with the crime at this stage. They told me that both the victim and the perpetrator live in the area. <BR /> <BR />We need to keep hearing information from the police. It is important that factual information is put into the public domain, whatever the circumstances were and whether or not it suits everyone's agenda. It is important that, in this era of social media, false information is not circulated online. I appeal to the police to make that information available. They also need to increase their presence on our streets at this time of anxiety and fear that such a thing could happen.”
“When I saw the video this morning, I, like all Members, was deeply shocked by the barbarity of the attack that took place on Kinnaird Avenue in north Belfast last night. A man was pinned to the ground and seemingly in a helpless state, yet the attack by another man, using a knife and slashing at his face and repeatedly at his throat, continued — a man in a helpless state being mutilated. In the video, residents can be heard shouting, appealing for the attack to end. I commend the residents who intervened to help to bring the attack to an end and the police officers who arrived on the scene to end the attack. <BR /> <BR />I spoke to the PSNI commander for north Belfast this morning. The police have put out a statement to confirm that a 40-year-old man is in hospital. Our thoughts are with him.”
“In any debate on this matter, some will claim that some people engage in prostitution by choice as a source of income. While that may be the case for a small number of people, the research provided to us by Ruth Breslin of the Sexual Exploitation Research and Policy Institute (SERPI), who analysed four pimping websites active in Northern Ireland, indicated that only 5% to 10% of the women advertised could be considered sex workers by choice, whereas 90%-plus were clearly either trafficked or vulnerable, including many who were from overseas. We hope that our amendment will be supported at this stage. <BR /> <BR />Finally, I commend to the House amendment Nos 88 and 89 on preventing domestic abuse involving threats or harm to animals.”
“She told us that such prostitution is rife across Northern Ireland and is growing faster than ever. Some of the women whom she worked with were killed by drugs overdoses. She believes that she was given an overdose at one stage in order to kill her, but she survived. Ultimately, her abuser — her pimp — was convicted and sentenced to nine years in prison. She told us that paramilitaries are up to their necks in sexual exploitation.”
“<BR /> <BR />One brave witness who addressed the APG explained that she thought that she was in a relationship with a man who gave her a drink containing an unknown drug. That lead to years of addiction, during which she was sexually exploited through prostitution in order to get the drug that her addiction demanded. She was regularly drugged before appointments and had no say in whom she was booked for.”
“Studies using the sexual trafficking identification matrix (STIM) assessment reveal a high prevalence of indicators of trafficking in the advertising women on the sites. <BR /> <BR />Many of the women being exploited are under the impression that they have been brought to Northern Ireland, the UK or Ireland for employment, only to find themselves trapped in prostitution. My colleague Paul Frew referred to the BBC documentary about the life and death of Caitlin Hanna, a girl from north Belfast who was trafficked for sexual exploitation in other parts of Belfast and who died in March 2022. As the Justice Minister said, trafficking does not necessarily involve moving someone to another country.”
“<BR /> <BR />Perhaps there will be more agreement on amendment No 78, which creates an offence of advertising sexual services in exchange for payment. As I mentioned, I am a member of the recently formed all-party group (APG) on modern slavery and commercial sexual exploitation. The APG is conducting an inquiry into the online advertising of sexual services, which is the subject of the amendment. The internet has provided the means to transform the selling of all types of goods and services, including the selling of sexual services on so-called pimping websites. The evidence that has so far been provided to the APG is very disturbing. Such sites operate beyond most people's awareness, yet they hide in plain sight.”
“At various times in my years as an elected representative, I have seen situations in which people wish to take faith, particularly the Christian faith, out of institutions. When people try to do that in our schools and in relation to ceremonies, we will always speak up for the place of faith in the public square. <BR /> <BR />You are all acknowledging where I am likely to end up in my comments. We are concerned that, although blasphemy laws have not been used in prosecutions in recent times, their repeal will be seen, in public messaging, as a victory for those who wish to diminish respect for belief, including those who wish to be derogatory towards belief, and who wish to reduce the role of faith in public life. We will not, therefore, support amendment No 73. We have had a reasonable debate on it.”
“Well, let me finish off —. OK. I will take one more intervention, given that we are not under a time limit, if the Deputy Speaker is obliging.”
“The Minister is taking an extreme view. She is talking about people being imprisoned and even executed on the basis of religion, and we do not support that. The United Kingdom has a proud tradition as a liberal democracy that respects diversity. That is why, as a country, it is respected across the world and is an example to many other nations. When I speak to groups, I always talk about the soft power of the United Kingdom. It is one of the most respected countries, because it respects diversity, but it also has Christian values at its core. Those are values that everyone can subscribe to, and they include democracy. <BR /> <BR />I will move on because I feel as though we are going round in circles.”
“I feel that we are repeating ourselves, but carry on.”
“I do not agree with the conclusion that the Minister claims to take from what I said. The Christian faith, in particular, has an important role in our country's constitution and in many of our ceremonies. I do not believe that that prevents people of other faiths or people who have no beliefs from taking part. It is relevant to the values that have underpinned the development of our country. That is why —.”
“I do not know if the Member listened to the rest of what I said. I am saying that we value the role of faith not just in private life but historically. Faith has an important role to play in public life today through the values that it portrays such as care for others. We support faith having that role in the public square. Some people try to push it out: that is their agenda, and they are entitled to have it. We have the agenda of upholding recognition of faith in public life. <BR /> <BR />I will give way to the Minister.”
“OK. When the Member watches, for example, left-wing comedians on TV and how they refer to the Christian faith, he might wish to compare that with how they refer to other faiths. Many of them would not be derogatory towards other world faiths in the same way that they are prepared to be towards Christianity.”
“We recognise the foundation of Christian values that have underpinned much of our common law and our constitution in the United Kingdom. Whilst acknowledging the diversity of beliefs that now exists in Northern Ireland and the rest of the UK, including all the major world faiths and people of no belief, our experience over many years has been that some political parties and humanist groups wish to actively drive faith out of the public square, out of public ceremonies and out of our schools and institutions. We are mindful that it is popular for people in some circles, particularly left-wing circles, to be derogatory towards Christian faith and belief in a way that they would not be towards other world faiths and beliefs.”
“However, I am concerned that the public impression that rough sleeping and begging on the streets are legal activities without restriction could result in an increase in nuisance behaviour, including intimidating and threatening behaviour, to the detriment of shoppers and shopkeepers. Therefore, having taken advice, we believe that our amendments strike the right balance in ensuring that the police have the appropriate tools at their disposal, if required, to address and prevent behaviour that makes other people feel at risk. In those circumstances, we are supporting the repeal of the Vagrancy Act. <BR /> <BR />Amendment No 73 proposes the repeal of blasphemy law. We in the DUP believe that faith and belief, which are private matters for each of us, also have an important place in common life in the public square.”
“Therefore, the DUP has tabled two amendments, amendment No 71, which introduces an offence of trespassing with intent to commit criminal offence, and amendment No 72, which introduces an offence of arranging or facilitating begging for gain. <BR /> <BR />From time to time, I hear from constituents, particularly women, that they have been subject to harassment in Belfast city centre. I recognise that people who are sleeping rough generally have complex issues. Indeed, the Complex Lives programme, led by Belfast City Council and other statutory agencies, seeks to support some of our city's most vulnerable people to help break the cycle of chronic homelessness.”
“I rise as a DUP member of the Justice Committee to comment on the amendments that we have proposed in group 3, which cover a range of matters. <BR /> <BR />Amendment No 70 would repeal offences in the Vagrancy Act 1824. Whilst we accept that people are very rarely arrested or prosecuted just for the offences of rough sleeping or begging, we are concerned that repealing those offences could leave insufficient powers, influence and tools for the Police Service of Northern Ireland to address cases of trespass or obstruction, of begging that causes nuisance and intimidation and of organised begging. Those concerns were raised with us in Justice Committee evidence sessions, including from city centre retail groups, the PSNI and academics who specialise in the topic.”
“At this stage, we are open to ideas for making sure that the amendment is as effective as possible. The research that we have received is that those who, supposedly, sell sexual services by choice make up a small percentage of the total.”
“SERPI’s research, however, showed that, while a small number could be seen to be doing the work by choice, the vast majority, 85% to 90%, of women advertised on such websites were either clearly trafficked or vulnerable. <BR /> <BR />We have heard from others how addiction is used to trap women in that lifestyle, where they are exploited. They end up in a situation where they are not even making any money; all that they are doing is being exploited in order to earn a fix of the drug that they have been addicted to against their will. It really is a horror show, and it is terrible to hear of the deaths. It is a modern trap that the internet has made much worse. That relates to the purpose of our amendment, and I will say a bit more on it later.”
“I thank the Member for giving way. Like Connie, I am a member of the all-party group (APG) on modern slavery and sexual exploitation. The evidence that we have heard about how the internet, which can transform all aspects of life, whether good or bad, has transformed the advertisement of sexual services has been revealing and disturbing. We recently received evidence from Ruth Breslin of the Sexual Exploitation Research and Policy Institute (SERPI), who had looked at active pimping websites in Northern Ireland. On what the Alliance Member for South Belfast said, we sometimes hear the argument that some women choose to sell sexual services, primarily, one assumes, as a source of income. Some people even say that they are empowered by doing so.”
“The Minister will be aware of the need to improve safety and reduce congestion at the York Street interchange in north Belfast. However, we now know that the extra funding secured for that — it was a named project as part of the 2017 confidence-and-supply agreement — was all spent elsewhere. What plans does the Minister have to deliver the new York Street interchange?”
“<BR /> <BR />There are many people working on the regeneration of the Shankill Road to bring derelict buildings back into use and to maintain shops along the road. To have a former church building and future shop burned totally undermines that work and is setting back progress. It is a depressing crime, and I urge anyone who has information about the arson attack to bring it to the police.”
“That is quite normal, and they are supported locally and by the many people who visit the area to avail themselves of the shops. Indeed, that would not have been the only international food shop on the Shankill Road. <BR /> <BR />Those behind those inflammatory social media posts bear considerable responsibility for what occurred. I spoke to one on Saturday morning, who made a video of himself talking about the arson attack. I agreed with him that it is disappointing to see a church closing in the area and being repurposed, which has happened to many churches. I asked him whether he attended church himself, and he said no. Sadly, that is part of the reason why churches are closing and being repurposed. Whatever concerns people have, they should raise them with community and elected representatives. I will always listen to their concerns.”
“<BR /> <BR />On Saturday morning, I was passing the premises when out for an early morning run when I noticed a police car outside after the fire had been extinguished. I had to ring the owner to tell him the devastating news of the fire that had occurred on his premises, and I met him on-site later that day. He is, understandably, in deep shock at what has occurred and does not know how to proceed. I have been liaising with various statutory agencies and community representatives on his behalf, and I will continue to do so. The majority of people in the Shankill are appalled by the attack. To be clear, there are many stores along the Shankill Road that are owned by people from outside the area, including from overseas.”
“I join others in condemning the appalling arson attack on the former Shankill Gospel Hall in the early hours of Saturday morning. <BR /> <BR />After closing five years ago, the hall was bought recently by a couple who are originally from India, with the intention of turning it into a grocery store specialising in Indian foods. As the Assembly Speaker said this morning on the radio, he and I met the owner some weeks ago at the invitation of Dr Singhal, the chair of the Indian Community Centre, to hear of his plans for the building. Regrettably, some people, mostly from outside the area, made it their business to stir up opposition to the proposal, with social media posts containing false information and suggesting that such a store should not be allowed on the Shankill Road.”
“OK. I am nearly finished. <BR /> <BR />As has been said, the DUP is not minded to support Sinn Féin amendment Nos 49 to 51 on the topic of live links, but we will support the other amendments in the group.”
“We know of the Member's enthusiasm as a Member and as Chair of the Committee.”
“I will in a wee second. <BR /> <BR />The report must also include:”
“and publish a report on that. The report must include:”
“The Justice Committee agreed that live links can be an aid in our courts and justice system when face-to-face business is not possible. It is therefore right that we make provision for the use of live link technology in a way that is not framed by the context of COVID. As Members have heard, however, we are concerned that online communication reduces the opportunity to read body language and provides less nuance and less opportunity for quiet conversation and can be uncomfortable for those who are not used to it. The Committee has therefore agreed to amendment No 52, which would introduce a review of the use of live links. It states that the Department of Justice must appoint a "person or body" to:”
“The second group of amendments relates to child bail and custody arrangements and the appropriate use of live links. On the arrangements for bail for children, the Bill states that a custody officer must consider the juvenile's characteristics of "age, maturity and needs". As Members have heard, the Justice Committee agreed that the word "vulnerabilities" should be added to that list to ensure that vulnerabilities are considered, rather than being overlooked if they are not captured by the existing terms. That addition is made by the Committee's amendment Nos 41 to 43. <BR /> <BR />The use of live links came to the fore during COVID-19, although it had existed before that. It is now well established as an option in most statutory services.”
“I welcome the fact that the Bill has finally reached Consideration Stage so that we can determine the Assembly's position on the 132 amendments that have been tabled to the Bill.”
“No doubt Sinn Féin will tell us that there was no alternative to that, but there certainly was an alternative, and, nearly 34 years later, here we are in the Northern Ireland Assembly discussing amendments from Sinn Féin and other parties to ensure the retention of biometric matter in order to help convict those who are responsible for crimes such as the terrorism that occurred on that night in 1992. <BR /> <BR />The Committee for Justice identified the need for a clause on the retention, use and destruction of photographs, and we reached agreement on that: it is amendment No 40. <BR /> <BR />I note the various amendments to the PACE codes in the Police and Criminal Evidence (Northern Ireland) Order 1989, most of which have been tabled by the Minister and relate to:”
“<BR /> <BR />We have amendments from the Minister and from individual MLAs, and the full Committee agreed to the tabling of some amendments. Some amendments are from Sinn Féin. I note that its new-found interest in the retention of biometric data contrasts with its position on 23 September 1992, when the IRA exploded a 3,000 lb van bomb outside the Northern Ireland forensic science laboratory at Belvoir in Belfast in an attempt to destroy evidence in terrorism cases. I was at football training at Olympia leisure centre on the Boucher Road that evening, and I well recall the sound of that massive explosion echoing around the city. Over 1,000 homes in Newtownbreda were damaged by that bomb, and many people were injured.”
“<BR /> <BR />The amendments in group 1 relate to Part 1, on rules for the retention of biometric data, including fingerprints and DNA profiles. The group contains Committee amendments relating to the retention of photographs, provision for which the Committee agreed should be included. <BR /> <BR />The time limit on the retention of biometric data can, in various circumstances, be two, three, five, 25, 50 or 75 years. We can all accept the need for a range of retention periods: a shorter period in the case of those who are arrested but not yet charged or convicted, and, at the top end of the scale, a longer period for those convicted of recordable offences, including the most serious offences, that carry a potential prison sentence. Clearly, there is a range of views in the Chamber on the amendments on the detail of that.”