S. Dhanabalan
Singapore
“Mr Speaker, Sir, on a point of clarification. I said in my intervention on Tuesday that the general election is the right forum to determine the electorate's support because it puts the issue in a total and correct context.”
“Mr Speaker, Sir, with hindsight, of course, we can be very wise. But since one of the three islands was excluded, it was a substantial reduction in the scope of works. The assessment then, which I agreed with, was that if you called for a re-tender, you would get a substantially reduced tender.”
“To the extent that we can, we should work with countries that have a common interest, to come together and form economic groupings targeted at trade liberalisation. We have started this process within ASEAN under the AFTA Scheme. Economic linkages in groupings like APEC are also growing in significance.”
“Mr Speaker, all these questions make a lot of sense when the events are finished, and you look back. But the officer looking at the case at that time had to deal with the facts as they were at that time.”
“ASEAN countries agreed to publish all the Inclusions and Exclusions lists, as well as the full list of actual tariff reductions. The ASEAN Secretariat had since followed up and released, as scheduled, on 1st November 1993, the publications showing these lists.”
“Kallang Theatre was closed for five months in 1992 for cyclical maintenance and upgrading costing $3 million. This included a major upgrading of the toilets, recarpeting the auditorium, rewiring and repainting.”
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“Well, I do not know whether it is sufficient or insufficient. But according to the revised building programme of HDB, this is the estimated loan that HDB will require after it has set off other incomes that the HDB receives as well as loan repayments from purchasers of HDB flats. So what is provided here is sufficient for the programme that HDB has in mind.”
“Is the Member saying that the amount provided is insufficient?”
“$490 million for Revised FY87. Estimated FY88 is different. The difference between Estimated and Revised figures is because of this change in accounting procedures. FY88 is the estimated amount of the net requirement of HDB.”
“In fact, what I said is confirmed by this figure. The original estimated Loan Repayment was about $2 billion. Now the revised estimate is only half a billion or $490 million.”
“That is the main difference. There is another reason for the difference. The main difference is that this is now a net figure whereas the old $4.5 billion was a gross figure, if I can use the words in that sense. In other words, you use whatever you get from the CPF for your own purposes and if you still need money, then you borrow from the Government. In addition to that reason , the original estimated number of flats the HDB was going to construct was I think about 25,000 to 30,000. It is now being reduced to 15,000. So the anticipated need for loans has also gone down. These are the two reasons for the difference.”
“Sir, if Members have the Estimates in front of them, on the page that the Member for Punggol referred to, page 668, there is a simple explanation for these differences. The first estimate for FY 87 of $4.5 billion was provided as loans to be made from the Government to HDB. Apart from the loans that HDB receives from the Government, HDB of course also repays every year to the Government loans that it received in the past. That is not shown here. This figure here shows what the HDB takes from the Government. What the Government receives as repayment from the HDB is not shown in this particular account. Every time HDB sells a flat, it receives full payment from the buyer out of the loan that he receives from CPF, or a downpayment from the CPF and a loan from the CPF. Every year HDB used to receive something like $1r billion by way of sales proceeds. HDB used to apply these sales proceeds to pre-pay or make advance repayment of the loans that it had received from the Government previously. It is not shown here at all. In other words, it takes loans from the Government, and that is shown here, but the pre-payments that the HDB makes on loans taken previously are not shown here. From the year 1987, Government decided that instead of doing it this way, whatever payments HDB receives from the CPF, should be used by HDB first and not used to repay the old loans. Having used the proceeds of the sales, if HDB still needs money, then HDB will borrow from the Government. So the accounting procedure was changed, and as a result the estimated figure for FY 87 is very much higher than the revised figure for FY 87. That is the reason for the difference. You don't follow?”
“Colour schemes, of course, that can be easily done and certainly I will ask HDB, whenever they undertake cyclical upgrading programmes, to brighten the whole estate. I do not know what the budget is for this purpose but I do know that whenever HDB does its cyclical upgrading they do take advantage of the works to improve the estate as a whole and not just paint the blocks. So this will carry on.”
“Sir, the upgrading of amenities in the older HDB estates, in fact, began sometime ago. Older estates which are close together, especially those near the City, have been integrated into a single town and facilities provided on a town basis. For example, there is now a Geylang New Town which is a result of amalgamating Kampong Ubi, Geylang West, MacPherson, Eunos and Mountbatten estates. When such amalgamation takes place, of course on a new town basis, certain facilities can be provided. Where the tenants are relocated and blocks are demolished, the use of the land so freed is constantly under review. Where possible, better facilities will be introduced. But I must repeat the point I made yesterday that, for estates and new towns near the City, it is not possible to provide the same kind of facilities as in Ang Mo Kio or Yishun or Woodlands. Land is too expen- sive for a start. Secondly, of course, these places are already built up and there is no way we can provide a neighbourhood park or a sports complex or a town centre, even if we want to. Land is just not available. Where land is available, we have to consider seriously what is the best way of using the land. People who live near the city have the advantage of enjoying the amenities of the City. So they must forgo other advantages, such as big parks and big open space between blocks and so on. This basic approach of putting the land to best use according to the value of the land will have to apply from now onwards. But in the cyclical upgrading programme of the HDB, HDB will try, wherever possible, to upgrade children's playgrounds, hard courts for volley ball, sepak takraw or whatever and provide these in the upgrading programmes.”
“Phase 3, I think. Of course, now HDB has stopped building HUDC type of houses. I cannot tell you offhand. I think that in the first phase certainly HUDC covered its cost at that time. But by the definition that I have used, it is still a subsidized price.”
“Sir, as far as the HUDC is concerned, I think the Member will remember that HUDC was a separate company and the first phases of HUDC developments were carried out by the company. HDB only took them over, I think, when it came to Phase 2 or Phase 3. I cannot recollect offhand.”
“On the question of quality of HDB flats, yes, there is a constant effort to improve quality. The quality in the past, as I have already mentioned, suffered because we were concentrating on numbers. And when we concentrated on numbers, we used foreign labour, very frequently, unskilled labour, and as a result, the quality was below what we expected. The HDB has a very elaborate scheme of zero defect quality control and other schemes. Perhaps if Members are interested, we should take them to some of the new blocks that are being built in Yishun where the result of all these efforts can be clearly seen, not just in new types of materials used but actually better quality workmanship. Apart from just extracting better workmanship, HDB itself has improved the standards that it incorporates in the flats. For example, the type of tiles, the type of fittings, bathroom tiles, wall tiles from floor to ceiling and so on. These are being constantly done. Of course, these cost money but I think people are prepared to pay nowadays for these improvements. So this is a continuing process and HDB will from now onwards, since they will be building only 15,000 flats or so every year, be able to build much better flats.”
“That is one of the purposes of the town councils so that the residents in each area can decide for themselves what their own priorities and preferences are and act accordingly. But as far as the HDB is concerned, I think the only tenable approach is to provide the same type of facilities for all neighbourhood centres, constituencies or new towns. They cannot really discriminate between areas. It would not be fair. On the plea by the Member for Telok Blangah, I am afraid the answer has got to be the same - that 240 units are going to be built there. This really brings me back to the problem. Telok Blangah, as the Member himself said, has got a lovely piece of land. The question is, what do you do with this lovely piece of land? Of course, if wegive it away at a nominal fee, you can put up a country club. But can you put up a country club paying market rates for the land? If the residents are prepared to pay market rates for the land and build the country club, I will ask HDB to consider. These are all valuable assets and we must put them to maximum use. I do not want to repeat this point. But I think the request made by the Member just illustrates what I am saying: that if you do not value land, then you just give in to pressures and requests, and at the end of day you have a complete hotch potch of policies and poor usage of land. The area is very valuable. People want flats there. There is a long waiting list of applicants for flats in Telok Blangah and I think the 240 flats will be very welcome. But if the Member can persuade me with an offer that will put the land to as valuable a use as 240 units, I am prepared to look at it but not at a nominal charge. That is out of the question.”
“It is true you get what you pay for but we have to strike a balance somewhere. There is a very substantial difference between direct labour and contract labour. At the end of the day, of course, the residents have to pay. The present service and conservancy charge does not cover all the costs required to maintain an estate. So we will make every effort to get contractors to do a better job. I think Members of Parliament can help by giving frequent feedback to the Area Office on the standards of work of the contractors, and that will help the HDB to get better work out of them. On the plea for more facilities and amenities in HDB. HDB cannot just provide amenities on the basis of demands of Members of Parliament. It must have a policy that can apply to all estates and all these amenities do cost money. Every town centre has certain sports and other recreational facilities and constituencies will have to learn to share them. If we put a special corner for senior citizens in one constituency, we will have to provide it for other constituencies. Otherwise it will not just be fair because everybody pays the same rate of conservancy fees. People pay taxes, and they expect the same service. So HDB cannot just respond to an MP who says, "Look, I've got a piece of land here, can you put up something for me?" The next thing, another constituency will ask, "Well, I've got no piece of land. What about knocking down this old block which you are clearing and put in that facility there." So we have to have a uniform policy. Differences will be put in place when town councils take over. Then they will have the latitude. They collect the money, they can decide. Having spent on the essentials, if they have surpluses or if residents want to pay more, they can have different facilities.”
“Yes, Sir. Regarding the standard of maintenance, it is true that the directly employed HDB labourers do provide a higher standard of service. But, of course, there is a cost. Just to give an idea, the cost of direct workforce is $7.30 per unit per month per flat. The comparative cost of contractors is just $5.06. So there is a substantial difference. Of course, HDB usually awards contracts to the lowest tenderer. But if the lowest tenderer has a past record of poor workmanship, he would not be awarded the contract. That is the normal approach. Generally, we are trying to get away from employing direct workforce in all these public cleansing operations. But at the same time we need to maintain standards. So HDB is working with the contractors to teach them how to mechanize their operations and how to schedule their operations so that they do a better job. But this requires also the cooperation of the residents. I think Members must have seen television advertisements put up by the HDB and the Ministry of the Environment teaching people how to put their rubbish in plastic bags instead of just throwing them down the chute. If only residents would learn to take a little bit of care when they dispose of their rubbish, I think it would help a lot to maintain cleanliness in the area. Though I have said that we will be resorting more and more to contract labour, of course, HDB will continue to have direct labour for some time to come and every effort is being made to reduce the cost of this direct labour. HDB is quite confident that, with some of the schemes they have in mind, they should be able to reduce the cost from $7.30 per unit to something like $6.70 per unit, but it would still be higher than using contract labour.”
“Of course, the real complaint is that they are paying a rent which is higher than the market rate. As Members know, we did give all those who had tendered for shops between 1980 and 1985 a 15% rebate which ended at the end of last year. This group in Hougang comes in that category and for this group when we sign the one, two or three-year term contract they will be given a 10% discount. If they sign a one-year term contract, then at the end of the one-year the rental will be adjusted to the prevailing market rental. If it is higher, they will have to pay higher. If it is lower, it will be reduced to a lower rental. I think the 10% rebate will give them some temporary relief. I cannot explain how this change came about. There was a change in plan but as soon as the change was made, the new tender documents incorporated the change and I think if the shopkeepers had done all that the Member had said they did, which is to go round looking at signboards and look up the telephone directory and all that, I think the first thing they should have done of course was to look at the tender document. Apart from the Phase 1, all the other phases clearly indicated that it was a Neighbourhood Centre.”
“HDB has been accused often enough of changing rules too frequently. While I would admit that the holding cost is high and we have over-estimated demand, we are confident that we will be able to sell these flats in the course of this year and next year. But the long-term solution to this problem, of course, is to change the method of booking or registering for HDB flats. I have already touched on this several times in the last two days. On the question of Defu Estate, I think the Member for Paya Lebar should not give the impression as he did, that the question of the HDB handing over these estates to the JTC has been considered for the last 3-4 years. People may have had problems for the last 3-4 years but I think I announced only a few months ago that HDB will be handing over all industrial estates to JTC and the handover is being discussed. It is not a simple matter. There is the question of valuation and at what prices they should be handed over. These things are being worked out. I hope that within the next year all the industrial estates and various flatted factories will be transferred to JTC. I shall certainly ask JTC to expedite the matter. On the shopkeepers in Hougang Neighbourhood Centre which was formerly supposed to have been a town centre, I have replied to the Member as well as to the Chairman of the Feedback Unit. It is true that the initial tenders - I think there were about 24 or 26 shops - did indicate on the plans that this was going to be a town centre but there was a change in the plan and it became a neighbourhood centre. All the subsequent tenders clearly indicated that this was going to be a neighbourhood centre. Out of the 100-odd shops in this area, about 24 of them have some grounds for complaint.”
“Sir, first of all, the point brought up by the Member for Nee Soon. I have already explained why we have surplus 3-room and 4-room Simplified flats. I think the Member has commented on my explanation. We do have vacant flats in Yishun. The exact numbers as at the beginning of this year were 4,217 vacant 3-room flats. Of these, 221 have already been sold and the applicants are about to take their keys. Another 883 will be converted into bigger flats and the other 3,000-odd flats will be offered to applicants over the course of the next few months. There is a reason why we have not been able to sell these flats as quickly as we would like to. The first reason, of course, is, as the Member pointed out, we over-estimated the demand for 3-room flats. But the more important reason is that there is a general reluctance to go to Yishun. In order to meet this reluctance, HDB will be advancing the construction of facilities and amenities in the town, to improve the infrastructure and improve the transportation network. Moreover, the 3-room flats which are available in other new towns, like Ang Mo Kio and Hougang, are already being depleted very quickly and we expect that very soon there will be no more 3-room flats left in these areas. People will, if they want 3-room flats, have to go to Yishun. So it will take a little longer than we had anticipated but we expect these flats to be sold. For this reason, we are not in favour of relaxing or changing rules just to solve the immediate problem at Yishun. Every time you change the rules, you cannot just change it for one particular area or to meet a particular problem. Because once you do that, then the pressure will arise to change the rules generally for all. I think we have to be very careful in changing these rules.”
“But it must be a credible schedule. If he has got no job, nobody is asking for a schedule because it will not be a credible schedule.”
“I thought I have made it very clear that if he has a job and he can come out with a schedule, HDB will try to accommodate him. They will not insist on him paying 50%. I think this is the third time I am saying it. That answers the point made by the Member for Ayer Rajah. I have never said that if he has no job, "Please give us a plan." I never said that. What I said was if he has no job and he comes along and says, "Look. I hope to get a job and please give me time." and after two years he still has not got a job, then of course HDB will have to say "no". Let us take the example given by the Member for Paya Lebar. If he has a job paying $500, then HDB will have to see how much he can actually afford to pay every month. If the amount that he undertakes to pay, even on an equal instalment basis, is such that it is obvious that he cannot meet the payment, then it is not a credible schedule and he has to do something about it. This is the point I am making. If he can substantiate his schedule by a job and the CPF contribution that he is making shows that he can pay, HDB will accommodate. In fact, I will instruct HDB to accommodate.”
“That is not possible. So there has to be a cut-off point at some point of time. I want to emphasize that if the person who has been retrenched has a job and can show from his salary that he will be able to keep to a new schedule of payment, I will ask the HDB to accommodate him. But if it is just based on hopes that something will turn up and he is already in arrears for 24 months, then I am afraid we cannot accept that. He has got to do something to adjust his lifestyle. We are not asking him to change overnight but at some point of time people have to reconsider their financial position. HDB cannot say, "We are going to allow you to pay when you are able" because the ultimate problem may be even worse.”
“Sir, perhaps the Member did not hear me clearly. I did make it very clear that once the legal process has started, of course, HDB demands 50% minimum. But I also said that if they have a definite plan which they can back up by the fact that they have a job and by their contribution to the CPF, then HDB will be prepared to consider. The recession was in 1985. We are talking of 1988, now. If he says, "I still do not have a job and I hope to get a job", then I am afraid HDB cannot agree. No landlord can agree. If you run a public housing programme on the basis that because somebody could afford a 5-room flat threeyears ago when he had a job and therefore he should be assured a 5-room flat now and in the coming years, the whole public housing programme will collapse. It is not possible. We are not saying that the moment he falls into arrears that he should downgrade. That does not happen. By the time HDB begins to take action it is normally after 18-24 months. Some time lapses before the HDB begins to take legal action. In fact, as I have mentioned, the problem is that HDB is a little slow because in some cases if they had moved earlier and the person had been forced to reassess his financial situation and take the necessary action he probably would have been in a lesser predicament. Because HDB has been rather slow more arrears have accumulated. We are not saying downgrade immediately. I know downgrading is not an easy thing to do and I did emphasize it. It is not easy. It is difficult to stomach. But if a person has got used to a certain lifestyle because he was doing well and now there is a complete change in his financial circumstances and after three years he still cannot find a job, what else can the Government do? Allow him to continue to enjoy the flat?”
“About the market that was leaking and the contractor who does not dare to go and repair because he will make further holes - it is a very interesting story. I am told there is a market in Henderson which was built sometime in the early 70s and it was leaking. Repairs were last done in 1986 but from time to time it leaks because the leaves from trees around the market choke up the gulleys and the roof gutters and, of course, there is overflow of water and it leaks. HDB has now trimmed the branches of the trees to try and reduce this problem. But it is something that is part of the maintenance problem. The markets have to be maintained. If they leak, they have to be patched. Repairs have to be done periodically and nothing can be left to just function well over a long period of time. There has to be constant attention. If you draw the attention of the Area Office to such problems, I am sure they will attend to it.”
“Of course, it is not possible to accommodate them. So wherever possible, HDB will try, but people have to make their own judgment about their commercial future and take action to do what is necessary to do something else. The Member for Henderson mentioned about shops in his constituency which have been vacant for six years. He also mentioned about blocks that have been cleared but there has been no new development in the area. I am told that in the case of Henderson, the area vacated by some of these blocks which were knocked down, will be used to build a secondary school. In other words, there will be no flats. This particular area is supposed to be behind Block 30, Tiong Bahru, because there is a shortage of secondary schools in the area. On the particular shop that is vacant, I do not know the reason for it. I know generally that there are shops which are not let out because in the area there are already too many shops. Experience has shown that when you tender out these shops, somebody gets the shop but after a few months he closes down. HDB has decided that in such cases it is better not to let out the shops but use them for some other community purpose, or just leave them vacant. That could be the case with the shop in Henderson. I do not know the particulars of the case. If he gives me the particulars, I will look into it. But there are shops, for example, in Toa Payoh where it has been decided that there is no point in tendering these shops out. It is better to convert them into some other use because the number of shops there is already too high, and the complaint has been that there is not enough business for these shops. So tendering out these shops is not going to help.”
“These were people waiting to upgrade and, of course, their incomes were high. They were able to buy things and the shops around them benefitted. They have all upgraded and moved out. And the people who are now left in the 1-room flats have less to spend. So whether we do relocate them or not, the shops are going to be affected. Most of these shops were, in fact, let out many years ago. The rents are definitely generally lower than market rentals. That is why we had this 3-phase increase of rentals for them. HDB decided not to implement the thrid phase increase but the rebate that was given was removed. But as they begin to sign their term contracts, 1-year, 2-year or 3-year contracts, they will get a 10% reduction. This has been announced. But if they find that even on this basis they cannot make a living, then I am afraid they just have to bid for shops elsewhere. As I said, they have to make the commercial decision because, even if we had not done anything about the relocation, their business would have been affected. This happens all the time in a society which is changing. People are moving, new areas are developing, old areas are being redeveloped. In the interim, the old area, of course, is not an attractive area any more. So they can always tender for shops in new housing estates and, if successful, of course they can terminate their present tenancies. Hawker stalls, the same story. Even without the relocation, they will be affected. Of course, HDB will consider relocating them in other markets wherever vacant stalls are available. But the problem, here again, is that there are a number of markets where there are vacant stalls but nobody wants to go there. Everybody wants to go to the same market where there are no vacant stalls.”
“" I have to check on this because I think when they surrender the keys, HDB may have to go and look at the flat to see whether they have done anything to the flat which requires replacement, repairs, whatever it is. But here again, if the flat is going to be knocked down, what does it matter even if they knocked a hole in the wall. So I will ask the HDB to look at this. 21 days, I am told, is the norm but if there are any specific or particular instances which you know where it has taken more than 21 days, please let me have the details and I will ask HDB to explain. Shopkeepers and hawkers affected by resettlement, yes, it is true that their business is less. In fact, even before the HDB started the relocation exercise, their business was already affected. I must remind Members how the relocation exercise started. The relocation exercise was not something that we suddenly dreamt up or pulled out of the air. It was the result of people moving out and blocks becoming empty or only half or three-quarters occupied or even less, maybe 40%. HDB saw that many 1-room blocks were going to become vacant. So we decided that we will relocate - gather them into a few blocks, and then clear the area where the old 1-room vacant blocks are situated. Many of the old 1-room units were occupied by families whose incomes were high, as they had many members in the family. And they moved out. So even before the relocation exercise started, business was already falling. And I know this from personal experience in my own constituency. I remember in 1976-77 when I first became an MP, and I walked through a 1-room block: every flat was well furnished, a refrigerator, a colour TV, telephone. They had everything. Some even had two telephones.”
“Now, on the question of relocating people in 1-room flat to 2-room flats. First of all, to be relocated in 2-room rental flats, it is true that initially HDB was not keen and the policy was to try and relocate them in 1-room flats. But there has been a change in policy. If a family meets certain criteria, such as of the three persons in a family at least one is a Singapore citizen, household income is between $500 and $800, then as far as possible HDB does try to accommodate them in 2-room flats. But as I mentioned in answer to another question (I think it was earlier this morning), there are not sufficient 2-room flats available to accommodate all who want 2-room flats. But we have many cases of a couple staying in a 1-room flat who want to upgrade to a 2-room flat. In such cases, we do not allow. The family must have at least three persons. The idea of a 2-room flat being ultimately sold, HDB did try but it finds that the 2-room flat is not a long-term solution. People are not keen to buy 2-room flats. A 3-room flat is the minimum that they want. In fact, our problem is that they do not even want 3-room flats; they want 4-room, 5-room, and not just 4-room but a 4-room improved flat. So I do not think that there is a demand for 2-room sale flats and the HDB will not sell 2-room flats. Otherwise you may get a block where two or three persons may buy the flats and the rest rent them, and it becomes impossible to do anything with the block of flats. You cannot relocate them, you cannot convert them, and it becomes a difficult problem. So there will be no more sale of 2-room flats. Regarding the removal allowance, I am told that they are paid within 21 days of the surrender of the keys. The Member suggested, "Why not pay them at the time they surrender the keys?”
“So those who are wise will go there. This happens every time we build a new town. Every new town is "too far away". When it is about 60% full, everybody wants to go there, and it is too late. It happened in the old days with Queenstown, it happened with Toa Payoh, it happened with Ang Mo Kio and it is happening with Yishun. People never seem to learn that they should move into a new town early and then as the amenities are improved, they will really have a good life. So 50% chose to buy. For those who opted to rent, 80% of them, were given flats according to their choice. Of course, this 80% never come to see their MPs. So you do not hear about them, you do not see them. The remaining 20% could not be accommodated in the areas that they wanted. And these are the people who have come to bother you, I am sure, and this is the impression you get - that many people are being randomly sent to all parts of Singapore. That is not true. The 20% were finally relocated in estates as near as possible but not estates or areas of their choice. But they have been relocated. So, as far as possible, we tried. When a block is already 80% empty, it is in the interest of HDB to try and get the other 20% out. And if there are vacant units, it will be very foolish of HDB to keep those units for others who are not being relocated. Relocation cases do have priority. It is not true that they are told, "Look, you have got to take your place in the queue with others." They do get priority. In fact, it is the people in the queue who come and complain to us that they are being pushed further and further down, as we had the complaint yesterday. All priority cases come up first and those who have been waiting as normal applicants do not seem to be able to get a flat as soon as they want.”
“Some cleared areas can be used to improve the environment, be landscaped, and playgrounds built. This is what we will do in the case of the City area and areas near the City, in the first place. In other words, they will not be left to look like devastated areas. They will be temporarily spruced up and landscaped so that some temporary amenities can be enjoyed by the residents there. Over the long-term, they will be redeveloped. As regards the relocation exercise, the Member for Boon Teck complained that it is slow. Some people think that it is too fast, some say it is too slow. We are aware that as people move out and the last 10% or 20% remain behind in the block of flats, a security problem does arise. And it is not for want of any will or attempt on the part of HDB that these 10 or 20% do not want to move. They do not want to move in many cases because they want a particular block or their choice areas, which is very difficult to satisfy. This point was also raised by the Member for Henderson - that no offer was made in neighbouring blocks. HDB tries as far as possible to relocate tenants in areas of their choice, which is very often areas near their old blocks. Of the 22,000 tenants that were affected by relocation, 50% opted to purchase flats in various areas. So they just moved out to purchased flats. Very often, of course, purchased flats were not available anywhere near the rental flats. So they went to new towns, Ang Mo Kio, Bedok, Yishun. I do not see why Yishun is considered as something undesirable. Some of the best flats are in Yishun. The Member talked as if being sent to Yishun is like being sent to Siberia! It is a new town. It has an MRT station which will start operation not too long from now. It is going to become a very attractive town.”
“But it must be based on something definite. Can I now turn to the point raised by the Member for Bo Wen on the conservation programme for water and electricity? Yes, HDB is very conscious that it must prevent wastage of water and electricity and many energy saving measures have been introduced. He would have noticed that the lighting in some of the public areas has been reduced. But it is not just reduced indiscriminately. We look at the area and, where more lighting is required, we do provide more lighting. The HDB has also changed to energy-saving bulbs which will provide the necessary brightness but consume less electricity. To conserve water, HDB has introduced self-closing delayed-action taps in all its public toilets and it is constantly looking at this problem. But if Members come across any particular instance where there is wastage, of course, they can help by drawing the attention of the HDB to such wastage. As regards relocation, rebuilding, raised by the Member for Bo Wen, yes, relocation does cause many social and economic changes in the area. But we cannot put in place new development plans quickly as we are scaling down the construction programme. From next year the HDB will probably build only 15,000 flats a year. These flats will have to be spread out because there are developments in new towns that have to be completed. And as far as the City area is concerned, we will have to delay redevelopment to allow land values to settle. So within the Central Area and areas near the City, there will be some delay in new building. But in the new towns and other areas, we hope to redevelop fairly quickly. We will build larger types of flats and wherever possible, 2-room flats may not even be knocked down but may be converted into larger flats for sale.”
“And when they know the flat is going to be repossessed, only then they come with a serious proposal. By then, it is a little too late. So when your constituents come to you to tell you, "Look, I am prepared to pay $2,000 or $3,000 which is 10% or 20% but the HDB does not want to accept", I would suggest that you ask them, "How long has this been going on? How many reminders have you had from the HDB? What attempts have you made in the past?" And you will find that most of them have just ignored the reminders, until they know that the HDB means business. But by that time, the HDB has already gone through a lot of trouble, gone into the legal processes and requires that they pay at least 50%. It used to be 75% but I asked HDB to reduce it to 50%. Even so, if they can come out with a definite plan which can be substantiated by the CPF contribution or other reasons that they can keep to this plan, we are prepared to consider. When people are retrenched, - this is the point that the Member made - yes, they run into difficulties. But if they are out of job for one or two years, then they really have to seriously consider downgrading. Downgrading is a sad thing. It is a difficult thing to do. But they cannot expect the HDB to wait indefinitely for times to improve before they can pay. They have to take certain action to change their lifestyle. Nobody likes to do it but there is no other way that they can resolve the problem. So if the person who is owing, comes with a vague plan and says, "I hope to get a job. Please reschedule", the HDB will say no. But if he can show that he has a new job, and is earning so much, and his contribution to CPF is so much and that with this kind of contribution he can keep to a new schedule, HDB is not unreasonable. They will agree.”
“I assume that in any system like this, there are always safeguards that only certain people have access and who know the codes. I cannot give the Member offhand the exact safeguards but this is standard practice - that when you set up a system like this, only certain people will have access or the code to enable them to get this information. But if he wants further information, I can get them for him later if he submits a question for oral answer. He made a plea to allow people who are in arrears to pay by instalments. I have explained this before - that when people are not able to pay their instalments when they purchase a flat, or are not able to pay rent when they rent a flat, and as soon as they begin to accumulate the arrears, HDB gets in touch with them. If they can come out with a programme or plan or a schedule to show how they can pay, HDB will accept it. The requirement that they should pay at least 50% will only arise if they ignore all the initial approaches by HDB and the arrears stretch on for many months and, ultimately, HDB has to take legal action. And once legal action is taken, it goes to the courts, and when the legal process starts, and only then the person owing instalments or rents comes along and wants to pay off in instalments, at that stage HDB requires that they pay at least 50%. To abort the process that has already been taken is quite a troublesome thing. If they do not pay at least 50% but give an equal instalment payment plan and do not keep to it, then HDB has to start the process all over again. So my advice to people, as soon as they run into difficulties, is to discuss with the HDB and come out with a plan to pay. They should not just keep quiet and make the HDB chase them month after month and for legal processes to start.”
“If you are interested in pursuing this subject, you can certainly submit a question and I shall be able to give you an answer. I think the question was, is there any protection against people who may get access to this information on computers? Wasn't that the question?”
“I am coming to that in my answer to the question raised by the Member for Paya Lebar. Yes, the major part of the deficit in the HDB accounts arise from the deficit in the sales programme. The Member for Paya Lebar said that the definition of "subsidy" which I gave yesterday is more applicable to the term "discount". As far as the HDB is concerned, it is not a discount. It is a subsidy, whatever way you want to define it, because the HDB pays the Government for land at market prices. It constructs the flats together with all the infrastructure facilities and sells the flats at a price that cannot cover what it has to pay to the Government. Therefore, it is below its cost. Yesterday, when I explained the definition and the need to use market prices, I was using, of course, not just the HDB but Government and the public sector as a whole. But as far as the HDB accounts are concerned, it has to pay the Government the market value for land. It incurs costs in construction. After it sells the flat, it incurs a cash loss. And that loss is made up by a grant from the Government which is then shown as a subsidy. I hope that point is clear. As a result of the new accounting system, of course, the HDB is able to pinpoint the costs of various activities and it shows it in the Notes to the accounts that are published every year - the sale activity, rental activity, service and conservancy activity, the car parks and so on. The details of these items are published in the Annual Accounts and these are only possible because of the new system. As to whether the retrieval system is such that there is protection against hackers, I assume the HDB has some sort of a system but I cannot give you the details just now.”
“Sir, first of all, can I take the point raised by the Member for Punggol on capital grant? The capital grant provided for in the estimates for HDB is the amount needed to make good the deficit incurred by the HDB in (1) its sales programme, (2) building certain facilities like sports stadiums, swimming pools and so on, which it writes down to $1 and transfers to the Sports Council, and (3) depreciation of certain fixed assets. At the end of the year, HDB will tote up the losses resulting from these three items and compare them with the surpluses it may have made in other areas like car parks and so on, and the net deficit is made up by the Government by way of a grant. The reason for the reduction in the capital grant is because the HDB is scaling down its construction programme this year. Therefore, there is a lower loss, lower deficit. I think that was the main point raised by the Member for Punggol.”
“Sir, Tuas reclamation involves 636 hectares. The reclamation works started in 1984. It will be completed very soon this year. In fact, 97% of the reclamation was completed by February this year. The land will be used for industrial purposes in the long term. In the case of the Punggol reclamation scheme, it began in 1983. It was completed in 1987. 276 hectares was reclaimed. The reclaimed land is to be part of the north-eastern coast reclamation scheme which is still in progress, and this land, when reclaimed, will be used for the future Punggol new town development. The entire reclamation of the north-eastern coast reclamation is expected to be completed by 1992 and, when completed, it will give us another 961 hectares.”
“Sir, it is true that reclaimed land cannot be used immediately. First of all, we have to allow the land-fill to consolidate before it can be used. In other cases, we reclaim land because we expect contract prices to be low, fill is available, and we want to do it long before we need the land. So we find, for example, in Marina South and Marina East, there is no immediate use for the land. We try to make use of the land for temporary purposes. Marina South, for example, as I explained yesterday, will be a major area as a playground and as a place for leisure for our population. The URA has, in fact, already sold 13 sites in Marina South for various recreational projects like bowling alleys, squash and tennis centres, golf driving range and so on. But there will also be facilities like cafeterias, snack bars, restaurants, food centres and so on. This is on a 20-year lease because we envisage that the land is not needed for another 20 years. There is also a very big City Park that is being built in Marina South. This will be a permanent feature and it will have many facilities which will make it an attractive City Park for our population. Regarding the other areas, the Planning Department is at present looking into what they can be used for on a temporary basis. If Members have ideas as to how they can be made attractive for use, we are always open to suggestions.”
“Basically, we would like to upgrade the Memorial Park and use it as a good connection between the two developments. At present, the Memorial Park is so crowded with trees that nobody goes there. It does not give a clear sense of an avenue connecting Raffles City and Marina Centre. In addition to the walkway that will be completed on Stamford Canal, there will be another connection through the Memorial Park. The whole place will be landscaped, a proper avenue created, so that people will be drawn from the Raffles City to Marina Square and vice versa. As to whether there can be a covered walkway, this needs to be looked into. A covered walkway above ground can be quite unsightly because it will be fairly long. Whether an underground walkway is feasible, this again has to be looked into. If it is just merely a tunnel connecting the two, I think it will be a failure because it is too long and people would not use it. I think Singaporeans feel safer walking out in the open, either in pedestrian crossings or in overhead bridges. Tunnels have not proved to be very popular when it comes to crossing roads, and this is going to be such a long tunnel that I do not think it will be popular unless we can build the tunnel in such a way that it will have an arcade underground with shops on both sides. But that is a very expensive proposition. So while we will try to connect the two developments, I do not know whether it will be a feasible proposition to have a covered connection between the two developments.”
“Sir, the details of the Cultural and Civic Centre have been widely publicized in the newspapers and I do not want to go into an explanation of what has already been publicized. I take the point of the Member about the Central Fire Station. We are aware that this is a rather unique building. It needs to be preserved. It is, in fact,agreed that it should be preserved but I cannot tell the Member offhand whether it is possible to move the fire station elsewhere. On the suggestion that it be turned into all ask the planners and others to give it due consideration. Regarding the warehouses along the Singapore River which are basically in Boat Quay, Clarke Quay and Robertson Quay, the planners are already considering schemes and ideas to preserve and revitalize this area. We would not like to see, as the Member has pointed out, the whole area being wiped out and completely new buildings being built. We want to try and preserve that part of the area in order to remind ourselves of our entrepot history and as a legacy of our heritage. When the plans are completed, which will require private sector participation, I think it can be comparable to any of the world's famous waterfront developments like the Fisherman's Wharf in San Francisco. We have in mind new facilities for entertainment, shopping, hotels and cultural activities to revitalize the whole area but we want to retain the unique physical appearance of the existing buildings and upgrade them. Regarding his third point, connection between Raffles City and Marina Square, I agree that there is a need to connect these two developments and part of the plan for the Cultural and Civic Centre addresses this problem.”
“Sir, Serangoon Road and Upper Serangoon Road are, in fact, traditional routes for traffic movement between the City and the north eastern sector. With the development of Hougang New Town, of course, there is more traffic and that is why we need to widen it. The work will be completed around the middle of 1989. When it is completed, it should make it much easier for people living in the north eastern sector, including Hougang, to move into the City. We expect traffic conditions to substantially improve with the widening of this road.”
“Because all that people need to do is to walk a little further up to either the Orchard Road/Paterson Road junction or a little further down to the Lucky Plaza where there is another traffic light for pedestrians.”
“I agree that there are too many traffic lights there. There are eight traffic lights and five pedestrian lights along the stretch of Orchard Road from Ming Court down to Dhoby Ghaut. Too many traffic lights, I would agree with the Member entirely. I think the reason why we have so many traffic lights, especially the pedestrian lights, is that we are really spoiling our pedestrians. First, we spend money building overhead bridges, then we spend money putting up barricades in the centre of the road to make sure people use the bridges. Where does all this money come from? Out of the people's pocket because they pay taxes for this. We have junctions along Orchard Road which are fairly close and junction lights, of course, are essential. When you have traffic flowing in different directions, you need junction lights. All that is required is for pedestrians to walk to the junction to cross. But no, they expect to be able to cross at the point where they get off the bus. So PWD has quite considerately put pedestrian lights between junctions so that people will find it easy to cross. After you pass the Ming Court junction, you come to a traffic light which is just a few yards from Lido Theatre. After you pass that particular junction, you come to the pedestrian light for the MRT station. A few yards down, you find another traffic light at Lucky Plaza and a few yards down you come to the traffic light at Mandarin. And so it goes on. I have already asked the PWD to completely review the number of traffic lights along Orchard Road. We should stick to what is essential and pedestrians had better learn to walk to the nearest junction to cross. I ask myself seriously whether, in fact, the pedestrian light opposite Orchard Road MRT station is needed.”
“So we need to learn to change our travel patterns cars to be used less for travel to work and more for weekend and other leisure activities. It is only as we learn to use our public transport efficiently that we can continue to get the maximum out of our roads and keep traffic moving. The Member for Chua Chu Kang has got a very engaging habit of dramatizing the various anecdotes that he has gathered or experiences that he has had. He talked about this road in Havelock Road which is banked the wrong way. I do not know. I have heard this complaint before. In fact, I have checked with the PWD and they told me that this banking in Havelock Road is properly done; that it is correct. Of course, this banking needs to be correct in order to assist vehicles to stay on their course and not go off the bend. I do not know whether the Member is astigmatic. You know, when you are astigmatic, sometimes you see things moving the wrong way! But if he wants to go down with my PWD engineers, I think they can explain why it is banked the way it is banked. I have checked this particular point because this is not the first time I have heard this complaint, and I am told that it is banked the right way. I am prepared to be corrected but maybe we should go down and have a look at the actual road condition. On the last point about Orchard Road. I do travel by road, obviously; but I avoid Orchard Road because I can use other roads to get into the City. I think that should be the option that most people should adopt. Unless you are going to Orchard Road itself, you should not use Orchard Road as a means of getting to another place outside Orchard Road. There are many other roads which give you ways of getting to the City or through the City to other parts.”
“So I personally have given instructions that we ought to take action, especially along roads which have heavy traffic in the peak times, to be very strict with people who stop or park even for a few minutes with them sitting in the car. Many people are under the impression that as long as they sit in the car, it is not parking. But they disrupt the efficient and free flow of traffic. At present we just see the Traffic Police ladies on scooters, coming along and shooing these people off. Perhaps that is not sufficient deterrence. They have to be dealt with more severely. We take a serious view because we must get the maximum out of our investment in roads, and people who disregard other road users must be dealt with severely. But at the end of the day, I think Singaporeans must realize that continuous road building and road widening is not an answer to our transportation requirements. Future road expansion is very limited, especially in the built-up areas. Unless we are prepared to be completely ruthless and just push people aside and we do not pay any heed to environmental factors, I think we must accept that we cannot expand our road network indefinitely. Our overall strategy towards more widespread use of public transport is the right strategy. And when I say "public transport", I do not mean just the MRT because the MRT cannot carry all who need to travel to the City. People have to learn to use buses. But with the MRT and the load that it takes off the roads, the bus system coming from areas not served by the MRT will become more efficient. We must get the maximum out of the $5 billion that we have spent on the MRT. We must get the maximum out of our bus system.”
“The old system was to study traffic patterns and get an idea of traffic flow, the density of traffic, and then feed it into the computer and the computer would control the traffic lights according to past data, and these data had to be constantly updated by studies. But the new system will enable the traffic lights to respond immediately and continuously to traffic patterns. In other words, it is not based on past historical data, and this is what we intend to put in place. We hope, over time, to extend this system to areas outside the City. In the first place, it would be only for the City area. A point that I would like to emphasize is that roads are not cheap to build. One kilometre of a 6-lane arterial road can cost up to $5 million, excluding the land cost, just construction cost alone, and this is also the average. Of course, if there are particular problems with the land which require special foundations, then it will cost more. So each lane costs about $800,000 for one kilometre, and we should put it to optimal use. There are many roads in Singapore which are three lanes wide but only two lanes are being used because of indiscriminate parking and stopping by people along one lane. We have a situation where very often we build a road with three or four lanes but we work on the basis that we, in fact, cannot depend on one lane to be available. I think this is a very wasteful way of using our roads. It is a luxury that we cannot afford and we need to be very, very strict with people who park where they should not park or stop where they should not stop because they seriously affect the efficiency of the road system.”
“And it is not just to save 10 minutes of travelling time; in fact, PWD did make a cost-benefit study. There are a number of reasons why it was decided that it is best to build a tunnel. By building a tunnel, there is better development potential for areas beside the road. If we had built it as an expressway, I think we would have reduced the value and the potential development possibility of land beside the expressway because we need buffers and setbacks from expressways. A tunnel also means that the area on top of the tunnel can be used for future development as well as for landscaping. Less land is required for the project if it is built as a tunnel. In the case of the tunnel portion of the CTE, the estimate is that we will save 10.7 hectares of land over the surface expressway option. And since land use and optimal use of land is a very important criterion, I think it is justified in this particular case to go for a tunnel. The tunnel also means that existing roads and bus routes can be largely retained and this is very important - existing environment along the tunnel will not be adversely affected. Just imagine, if the CTE had been built as an expressway, the environmental impact on the surrounding area would have been very, very adverse. Apart from just building roads and expanding roads, the PWD has also used traffic management measures to maximize the use of the already available roads. A good example is the introduction of the computerized traffic adaptive system for traffic lights, which try and provide a green wave according to the prevailing traffic flow. I must emphasize "prevailing traffic flow".”
“This was again pointed out yesterday by the Member for Punggol when he talked about the widening of Upper Serangoon Road. Widening and realignment of roads, of course, are disruptive and cause much inconvenience to the public. But in some situations we have little choice, especially if we want to put up an expressway which partly passes through built-up areas. We have little choice but to acquire land and displace people. And where it is very built-up, and we cannot build expressways, we try to just expand the existing roads to make them into arterial roads. Because the PWD is very conscious of the need to preserve the environment and to minimize noise and other pollution, the PWD is constantly looking for ways of building roads that will not affect people too much. And this is the reason why the CTE is built as a tunnel. We can build viaducts which are expressways running on pillars. And Members who have travelled overseas will know that. If they go to Tokyo, for example, there are many roads that are built two or three storeys above ground level. But such roads cause tremendous environmental problems. First of all, they are a blight on the horizon. They cause a lot of noise and create dust. So PWD always evaluates the different kinds of roads that need to be built and tries to arrive at the most cost-effective solution. Viaducts and tunnels, of course, cost much more than just surface roads. But for Singapore, we as a general rule want to avoid viaducts. We have built them in certain places like Keppel Road and at the junction of Thomson Road and Adam Road. But we would like to avoid them as much as possible because of the various environmental factors that I mentioned. The CTE, a good portion of it, will be built in tunnels.”
“Besides this, of course, I think all Members will be aware that many roads have been widened and upgraded. Some of the expressway projects which are still to be built will be the Kranji Expressway, the completion of the Central Expressway (CTE) both at the Yio Chu Kang end as well as the portion from Kampong Java Road to Chin Swee Road, the Seletar Expressway and the Tampines Expressway. As a result of this systematic planning and sound implementation of PWD's programme, our people now enjoy a good transportation network. All these expressways will also be connected by arterial roads so that you can pass from one expressway to another quickly and efficiently. At present our roads are relatively free from congestion. There are only a few roads in Singapore where you have perpetual congestion, Orchard Road being one, but most roads are quite free from congestion. As I mentioned this morning, when the Housing Board develops a New Town the transportation plans of the New Town are fully integrated with the PWD's expressway and arterial road network. When all the major parts of our expressways are completed by mid-1990s, all our HDB New Towns will be served with good road linkages to Jurong and to the City. But all this upgrading of roads, building of expressways, arterial roads, and so on, has a cost. I have mentioned this in the past, and outside this House, that, as a nation, about 11% of our land has been taken up by roads. That is a lot of land in an island where land is very finite. And apart from just taking up land, it reinforces the point made by the Member for Cairnhill - that there is a social and environmental cost to the building of roads. It requires, sacrifices from many people whose lands have been affected.”
“Sir, can I, first of all, take the point made by the Member for Bo Wen. He did not elaborate but he did touch on the need to have the roads properly integrated together with the MRT system. I have already mentioned this morning that there is, in fact, an integrated road network plan and transportation planning is an integral part of our land use planning. So I thought I should take a few minutes to explain the principle behind the road network system. The plan for the present network of expressways and arterial roads, ie, the main roads other than expressways, and for the MRT, was first conceptualized as part of the State and City Planning Study in 1967-71. This plan was to provide a good road and MRT, linkage of all the major traffic generators, which I mentioned this morning, ie, residential areas, industrial areas and commercial areas, which generate traffic. There was a need, and the plan saw the need to integrate the transportation needs of these areas. But, of course, the plan which was made in 1967-71 has to be updated because transportation planning is a dynamic process. In fact, the plan has been constantly reviewed, updated, modified by subsequent studies to meet the changing traffic demand. Since the early 1970s, the PWD has implemented a very ambitious road-build- ing programme to provide an efficient road network for our people. The major part of this programme has, in fact, been completed. However, there are still a number of expressways and major road projects which are in the pipeline, but the major part is already in place. Those that are to be built in the future will be as and when new areas are opened up to serve these new areas. To date, out of the planned 141 km of expressways, 83 km have been completed.”
“As regards flats which are already constructed and completed, I think I have replied to a question that was raised sometime ago - the Government has asked owners of all buildings to do periodic checks to ensure that the buildings are sound; in other words, do not wait for very obvious signs of distress in the structure before taking action. I think as we put into place, under the new Bill, regular periodic checks of buildings, we should be able to surface buildings that require attention and the owners should be able to take rectification action in time to prevent any serious problems.”
“In fact, the larger part of HDB's effort today is not in constructing new flats but in maintaining them. The larger part of the staff of HDB are, in fact, involved in the maintenance and management, and I think that they have done a very good job. In fact, town councils are already aware of the complexities and difficulties of managing public housing. If at all the town councils have any fear, the fear is that HDB may not help them to manage these areas. Although we often hear complaints about the lapses in HDB management of public housing, I think the real proof now is that people are worried that HDB may not continue to manage the housing estates. So there will be scope, and it is the intention of the Housing Board and the Ministry to ensure that all the trained people in HDB will be effectively and use- fully deployed in maintenance and management of public housing. I would just take one other point, then the Minister of State would take the other two points. This is the point raised by the Member for Kampong Kembangan on how we can minimize risk for purchasers of private apartments. I think this subject can be debated at greater length when we come to the Second Reading of the Building Control Bill that I have presented to Parliament. In fact, many of the provisions of the Bill will help ensure that buildings are structurally sound and properly built, not only at the design stage but also at the stage of construction. Some of the problems that we had, like Hotel New World or even Cheng Hong Mansion, should not occur. If the kind of steps that we have set out in the Bill are in place, we would not have a recurrence of this type of incident.”