S. Dhanabalan
Singapore
“Mr Speaker, Sir, on a point of clarification. I said in my intervention on Tuesday that the general election is the right forum to determine the electorate's support because it puts the issue in a total and correct context.”
“Mr Speaker, Sir, with hindsight, of course, we can be very wise. But since one of the three islands was excluded, it was a substantial reduction in the scope of works. The assessment then, which I agreed with, was that if you called for a re-tender, you would get a substantially reduced tender.”
“To the extent that we can, we should work with countries that have a common interest, to come together and form economic groupings targeted at trade liberalisation. We have started this process within ASEAN under the AFTA Scheme. Economic linkages in groupings like APEC are also growing in significance.”
“Mr Speaker, all these questions make a lot of sense when the events are finished, and you look back. But the officer looking at the case at that time had to deal with the facts as they were at that time.”
“ASEAN countries agreed to publish all the Inclusions and Exclusions lists, as well as the full list of actual tariff reductions. The ASEAN Secretariat had since followed up and released, as scheduled, on 1st November 1993, the publications showing these lists.”
“Kallang Theatre was closed for five months in 1992 for cyclical maintenance and upgrading costing $3 million. This included a major upgrading of the toilets, recarpeting the auditorium, rewiring and repainting.”
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“Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, there is not much that the Member has mentioned with which I can take issue. I agree with the broad thrust of his speech. We, of course, constantly review the land utilization policy and we do have a comprehensive land utilization plan. It is not as if the present land utilization policy is an ad hoc policy. There is a Master Plan which is regularly reviewed. And the Master Plan specifies for each plot of land the use and the density of development that can be allowed on that plot. In preparing the Master Plan which is constantly updated, planners here in Singapore face considerable constraints because of our very limited land resources. Nearly 50% of the Island is already built up. Much of the rest of the land may not be available for housing or industry because they are within water catchment areas. I was interested to note that in the various uses that the Member listed, he had left out this one very important use, that is, water catchment which takes up a large part of the land in Singapore. Sufficient lands have to be reserved for defence purposes, airports and major utility installations, as the Member himself mentioned. Planners, therefore, have to balance competing demands for land in the overall interest of the community and optimize and intensify land use. Proper scrutiny and control of land use, careful siting of incompatible land uses and stringent controls on pollutive land uses are necessary to ensure that all our needs are catered for. Planners constantly review population trends, population shifts, economic trends and so on, and monitor these changes and make the necessary adjustments in the Master Plan.”
“Then he will be an eligible candidate as an adviser to the community centre.”
“Mr Chairman, Sir, may I just say a few words. As my colleague has said, the People's Association is a statutory body and it is there to advance Government objectives, Government policies. Of course, the community centre is used for many purposes - people go there to play squash, badminton, participate in cultural classes, cooking classes, and so on. But there are also special events, forums, seminars, discussions, cultural shows where the advisor plays a role. The question is: who should be the advisor to the community centre? Since the PA is a statutory body advancing Government interest, Government policy, it must follow that the Government will appoint people the Government trusts as being able to help advance Government objectives and Government policies. The fact that it is PAP MPs who in most instances are appointed as advisers, I would say, is incidental. The PAP MP obviously is one who is trusted by the Government. It must be so. Otherwise he would not be fielded as a candidate. But if any PAP MP fails to perform his functions properly and does not help to advance the policies, the objectives, of the Government, then he has to pay a very big price. The first price he will pay, of course, is to be removed as an adviser of the community centre. The point that I want to register is that the adviser who is invited to the major and significant events in the community centre is one who is clearly identified as being able to advance the policies and objectives of the Government. If the Member for Potong Pasir is prepared to state that, I am sure my colleague will be prepared to consider him as an adviser. Is he prepared to say that he is prepared to commit himself to advancing the objectives and the policies of the Government?”
“Mr Speaker, Sir, I certainly will give a plan (Cols. 1019 - 1020) for the information of the House. The total cost of the additional reclamation works would be in the region of $150 million. plan - LAYOUT OF PUNGGOL AND NORTH EASTERN COAST RECLAMATION (Cols. 1019 - 1020) [Mr Deputy Speaker in the Chair] UBI AVENUE ESTATE (Sports and recreational facilities) 2. Encik Wan Hussin bin Hj Zoohri asked the Minister for National Development what will be the sports and recreational facilities available in Ubi Avenue Estate when it is fully developed.”
“Sir, in addition to the area that I have mentioned, there will be lands reclaimed west of Punggol Point between Sungei Punggol and the Punggol Point, as well as the land between what is known as Coney Island and the mainland. The total land to be reclaimed between Sungei Punggol and Sungei Serangoon will be 373 hectares. This will form part of the future Punggol New Town. There will also be other reclamation in the vicinity to the east of Sungei Serangoon where there will be another area of 210 hectares that will be reclaimed. We have not yet decided what this land will be used for but it will be used for future development. The area between Sungei Punggol and Sungei Serangoon will be reclaimed between 1987 and 1989 and the other area which is east of Sungei Serangoon will be reclaimed in the early 1990s.”
“Mr Speaker, Sir, land reclamation works in Punggol, west of Sungei Serangoon, commenced in October 1983. To-date, 95% of the works has been completed and 140 hectares out of the total 145 hectares of foreshore has been reclaimed. The Punggol project is expected to be completed by end 1987 at an estimated cost of $37 million. The reclaimed land will be part of the future Punggol New Town.”
“Mr Speaker, Sir, we were surprised. We were aggrieved. And we have registered our views on the matter with the Voice of America. We were surprised that the Voice of America had the same major reaction to the issue, that they were not concerned with the particulars of the issue. As I said, we have registered our concern. We have given them the details and I hope that they are wiser now. Mr Chng Hee Kok (Radin Mas): Sir, a supplementary question for the Minister for Communications and Information. How will the Minister rate the extent of the coverage of the Government's response and the Government's position in the international as well as the US press? Was the coverage good or was it poor?”
“The Ministry of Foreign Affairs has therefore delivered a third note to the State Department to place our position beyond doubt. I am circulating all the exchange of notes (Cols. 779 - 786) between the MFA and the US, including the MFA note of 21st February, the State Department reply of 10th March, and MFA's further rejoinder for the information of Members. notes - AIDE MEMOIRE (Cols. 779 - 786)”
“Mr Speaker, Sir, on 11th February 1987, a US State Department spokesman expressed regret over Singapore's restriction of the Asian Wall Street Journal. Singapore protested at this unprecedented interference in its internal affairs. The State Department responded that it did not take sides in the particulars of the case. The exchange of notes has been reported in the press. In view of the State Department reply on 21st February 1987, the Singapore Government delivered a further note to the United States requesting the State Department to explain how such impartiality is consistent with the regret expressed by its spokesman and on what basis it has concluded that the Singapore Government action is regrettable. The US Government replied on 10th March 1987. It stated that its stand on this matter is consistent with its "commitment to the principles of a free and unrestricted press in American usage", meaning that "the press is free to publish or not publish what it chooses, however irresponsible or biased its actions may be". The Singapore Government does not consider this a satisfactory explanation. Singapore is not the United States and is not bound by the US ideals of press freedom. In Singapore, when reporting has been left to the marketplace of ideas, it has from time to time led to civil commotion, riots and mayhem. We have inherited the British colonial system and have always had the right of reply. Just as we do not presume to pass judgment on US government press relations, neither do they have the right to comment publicly on Singapore Government press policies. The Singapore Government values our strong and mature relationship with the US. That is why we are making it quite clear that we do not accept that the American usage can be imposed on Singapore.”
“I cannot tell the Member when the plans will be completed. But when we have some final plans, we will certainly show them to the Member. 11.22 am [Mr Deputy Speaker in the Chair] MAIN AND DEVELOPMENT ESTIMATES OF SINGAPORE FOR THE FINANCIAL YEAR 1ST APRIL, 1987 TO 31ST MARCH, 1988 Order read for consideration in Committee of Supply [3rd Allotted Day]. [Mr Deputy Speaker in the Chair] Head T - Resumption of Debate on Question [18th March, 1987], "That the sum to be allocated for Head T be reduced by $10 in respect of Subhead TD-02-8100 of the Development Estimates." - [Mr Ng Kah Ting]. Question again proposed.”
“Mr Speaker, Sir, there will be public housing development in Ayer Rajah Estate when the Singapore Armed Forces Units move out of their camps in Dover Road later this year. The types of flats to be built will depend on demand. Details of the development in this area are not available yet, as the plans have not been completed.”
“Mr Speaker, Sir, to make that open space into a playfield would require more than levelling. It will have to be properly drained and turfed. The HDB estimates that the cost of turning it into a playfield will be something like $170,000. But I will ask the HDB to consider whether they can just level it which means that it will probably be usable only at certain times and not put in any other investment. I will ask them to consider it. DEVELOPMENT OF AYER RAJAH ESTATE 12. Encik Abbas Abu Amin asked the Minister for National Development (a) whether there will be any public housing programme for development of Ayer Rajah Estate when the Singapore Armed Forces Units move out of their old camps in Dover Road later in 1987; (b) if so, whether the Housing and Development Board will consider building 5-room or executive flats there; and (c) whether he will give details of the housing programme, including the amenities to be provided.”
“Mr Speaker, Sir, the open space between Fairway Condominium and Apartment Block 45, Telok Blangah Drive, is earmarked for development of new HDB flats. The HDB will be developing the land within the next three years. Therefore, it is not possible to convert it permanently into a playfield. However, residents of Telok Blangah can use as a playfield the open space at the edge of Mount Faber which is within walking distance. It is located at the junction of Henderson Road Extension and Telok Blangah Way.”
“Sir, certainly the subject of improving efficient use of our roads has been engaging the attention of our PWD and the Ministry for a long time. But whether a Committee is the best way to resolve this, I am not sure. I certainly will look into it. I think quite often while a Committee can tap expertise from many different departments and statutory bodies, it is not the best way of implementing a programme. But I will take his suggestion into account. Mr Ng Kah Ting: Sir, I am aware just now of what the Hon. Minister has said. I was trying to highlight the point that so much money has been spent on the expressways and on our road networks. Therefore we must make optimal use. In other words, value for money. So I welcome his perception that sometime in the not too distant future it may well be that our expressways may have certain restrictions on the traffic. Sir, on that note, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.”
“But the road approaching the bridge is not on foundation. So if that begins to sink, you have this difference in levels. Technology and equipment that were available at that time, when these roads were built, for deep soil stabilization were not such that they could resolve the settlement completely. In other words, we did not have the equipment or technology at that time. So what happened was that the difference in settlement was tackled by frequent road resurfacing. You just keep on filling where the road is sinking. This frequent resurfacing has greatly disrupted traffic flow. In the upgrading programme to improve the road riding quality, PWD found that recently high pressure jet grouting methods have been introduced into Singapore, partly because of our MRT construction. And this, PWD concluded, was a more permanent solution to the problem. So they have now started these grouting works. The total cost of all the grouting works is estimated to be $11 million. We expect that no further grouting work will be necessary after the present contract is over. In the case of settlement problem in the other expressways, it is a minor problem and it is not expected that these minor problems would require jet grouting.”
“Of these 56 contracts, 53 were won by local contractors and the other three by local/foreign joint ventures. None of the contracts were awarded to a foreign contractor, solely foreign-owned contractor. In the case of the Central Expressway, I have already explained why it has been necessary to open it to foreign contractors and why it is not possible to split up the tunnelling contract. But other parts of the contract for the Central Expressway from Yio Chu Kang Road to the Ayer Rajah Expressway in the south, these have been split up into many small jobs. No less than 11 separate contracts were awarded. But the big part, which is the tunnel, unfortunately cannot be broken down into smaller contracts. Grouting works. I think Members must have noticed, I am sure they have been caught in traffic jams approaching ECP and CTE because of grouting works. These grouting works are necessary because, in the case of the CTE and in the case of the ECP, a part of the road work is on reclaimed land, soft undersoil, and part of it is on bridges or on foundations. So at the part where the road starts running on foundations, it is harder, it does not sink, but the other part begins to sink. So the difference arises between the levels of the road at this point. That is why we have to resort to grouting. Now Benjamin Sheares Bridge. The approach to the Bridge is built on reclaimed land. Similarly, the stretch of CTE from the PIE to the Ang Mo Kio Avenue I was built on what was formerly swampy land. So ground settlement caused by the very deep underlying soft marine clay up to 45 metres deep was expected when the road was built. Soil treatment was carried out to minimize settlement at the approaches to the bridges. Because the bridges are on foundation, they do not sink.”
“Whether this fine network of roads that we have will become congested in two years or not, we hope not. But one thing is for sure. If they do become congested, the answer is not to build more roads because we just do not have the space to keep on building more roads. I have already stated about two weeks ago that more than 10% of our land is taken up by roads and we cannot keep on building more roads. What we need to do is to put in new types of equipment which will enable us to make better use of the roads. The type of computerization that we have been talking about is one way of doing it. The other way, of course, is to just reduce the number of cars and try and get more people to use public transport. All these measures will be necessary. Unlike other countries where the constraint in building roads is usually money, in our case, it is partly money but even more so it is land. We cannot keep on building more roads. So we must put in place measures that will ensure that we get the maximum out of our roads. I can well envisage a situation - I am not saying that this has been decided - where perhaps our expressways should be used only for cars carrying at least four passengers. That may well have to come in 20-30 years from now. So we have to make sure that we get the maximum out of our investment in roads, and that is the direction of our policy. The Member also raised a question about local contractors. Yes, whenever it is technically possible, as I have mentioned, PWD has been breaking down its road construction projects into small parcels so that local contractors can successfully bid for these jobs. Between September 1985 and January 1987, a total of 56 road development contracts were awarded.”
“Sir, I thank the Member for Punggol for drawing attention to this problem of revotes. When an amount is provided for a particular project, it is based on the estimated cost, in-house estimates and implementation schedules of the project, both on-going projects as well as new projects. The reasons for the revotes are obviously because there are unspent balances. And the unspent balances arise out of a number of reasons. One main reason will be the delay in the project because we may have under- estimated the time taken to clear encumbrances. For example, if the road is to be laid through an area that is squattered, it may take longer than anticipated to clear squatters. Another reason is that we do try and plan our road works such that we spread out the load on our contractors. During the peak of the construction boom, some of the works were phased to later years. So those will be the two main reasons but, of course, there are also other reasons why there is a difference between original estimate and the actual cost. One very good reason which is a welcome reason is that tender prices have been lower than estimates because construction activity as a whole has come down. There is keen competition and costs have come down. Another reason for the difference would be changes in design in some of the projects. In some cases, heavier loadings were originally planned for the bridges as well as the roads and then when we started designing, less loadings were required. So costs were less. In other cases, more loadings were required and costs were more. So when more loadings are required, then of course you have to make more provisions. So these are the various reasons for the differences.”
“Whether it is easier to remember three or two, I think we will have to ask a psychologist. People tell me that it is easier to remember three letters in a row than two. The reason why we chose syllables is quite simple. It is more likely that we have single words than single syllable words. So if we just use the first letter of a word, then you will have quite a few expressways with just two letters. Ponggol Expressway would just be PE. And since we started off on the premise that three letters are easier to remember than two, then we looked for a way where we can ensure that in most cases we would have three letters. That is how they chose the syllables rather than words.”
“The idea is to try and use the first letter of the first two syllables so that when we have a Kallang Expressway and a Kranji Expressway, we would not have KE for both. One will be maybe KLE, the other one of course we will have to choose something which is a little different, like KRE or KJE. So that is the reasoning behind it. It is a little involved. One would have thought that we just choose the first letter of each word. But some areas have only one word, like Tampines, then it will be TE. Right? And then if it is Telok Blangah, it could be again TE. Punggol will be PE obviously. So that is the reason why BKE, AYE, and so on are chosen. Of course, then you ask me why it is PIE - Pan Island Expressway. Well, the same theory applies - Pan, the first letter is P, and Island, that is the second syllable I. So that is the theory.”
“I thank the Member for Kampong Ubi for his very kind remarks about the colour that he appreciates along our expressways. Yes, we try to add more colour to the plantings along our expressways in addition to the greenery that we have. So far we have planted, I am told, 61,000 colourful shrubs on our existing five expressways. Although every effort is made to plant colourful shrubs along expressways, it may not be possible to achieve the same kind of result that we have for the East Coast Parkway because the East Coast Parkway has very wide central dividers and plenty of land on both sides. And, of course, the East Coast Parkway has a park all the way from Tanah Merah Golf Course and a park almost all the way into the city. So we cannot create the same kind of impression but we will continue to try and secure as many colourful shrubs and plants as possible to plant along our expressways. Regarding the abbreviations used for expressways, it is not that the PWD is not aware about spelling and they are not using some other language or a new way of spelling these words. It is very simple. Basically, it is felt that expressways should be abbreviated to three letters rather than two. It is always easier to remember three letters. Like Singapore Airlines, it should really be SA. But it is called SIA. It is not Singapore International Airlines. It is just Singapore Airlines. But it is called SIA because it is easier to remember three letters. In the case of expressways, the manner in which the abbreviation is chosen is the letters of the first two syllables of the word. In other words, Bukit Timah, the first syllable is "Bu", the second syllable is "kit", so it is "B" and "K" Expressway. That is why it is BKE. And in the case of Ayer Rajah, it is "A-yer", "A" and "Yer".”
“What we are trying to do now is that on major roads, especially the expressways, we are installing safety guard rails so that the cars, if they go off the road, would not run into a tree but would be pushed back on to the road. It is not to protect the tree. In fact, if not for the trees, in many cases the cars would have gone right across to the other side and smashed headlong into an oncoming car. So the guard rails are not meant to protect the trees but to keep the cars where they are supposed to be, which is, on the road. In spite of the persistent attempts by some drivers to get off the road, we try to keep them on the road.”
“We try to carry out the excavations separately in order not to occupy too much road space at any one time. Of course, the ideal is to build a tunnel under the road, like the sewers of Paris or London, and then they are big enough where you can lay all the services without digging up roads. But I think it is a very costly undertaking and it is not feasible for us to build such a facility under our roads. Within our constraints we will try and ensure that roads are opened up in such a way that they cause minimum disruption. But I know that the layman sometimes wonders why is it that the road is dug on the left side by PUB Electricity Department and two months later it is dug up on the right side by the Gas Department. Why cannot they all dig at one time and put everything together? As I said, there are problems. It cannot be done. But as far as possible, we try to lay services outside the road but in most cases that is not possible. The other point that the Member for Telok Blangah made was about trees beside our roads. He says there are too many instances of trees smashing into cars! It reminds me of the story of the proverbial woman driver who filled up her insurance claim form and said that she was driving quite carefully along the road when a tree suddenly jumped in front of her. Sir, we plant trees not only to give shade to the roads but to generally make our living environment more pleasant. Yes, more car owners have air-conditioning but there are other users of the roads. There are bus commuters. There are motor-cyclists and, of course, there are also pedestrians.”
“The Committee meets monthly to discuss matters relating to the coordination of road excavations. The Committee also formulates rules and regulations and related matters such as safety on the roads, reinstatement standards and other conditions. The Committee also ensures that investment spent on road resurfacing is not wasted as a result of ill-coordination of works. I think what many Singaporeans are looking for is a road to be opened once and then all services to be laid in that trench and covered up and not opened again for a long time. I think that is not possible. What the Roads Opening Coordination Committee does is that when a particular statutory body or department wants to open up the road for any particular purpose, they try to see whether that service can be laid outside the road. In some cases, it is possible, on the sidetable or even beyond the sidetable. But in many cases it is not possible. In countries where they have plenty of land, they set aside a tract of land beside the road to carry services. We do not have the land to do that and so it is not feasible for us to sterilize land for the purpose of laying public utilities. But as to whether we can have a trench into which we can lay all the services, there again there are problems. We cannot lay a water pipe next to a sewer pipe because there is a danger of contamination. We cannot lay an electric cable next to a gas pipe because if there is a leak there can be an explosion. So it is necessary to dig up the roads separately because these services cannot be laid too close to each other, and this is the problem. Some services are laid on one side of the road and other services on the other side of the road.”
“Firstly, top management in each one of the organizations will emphasize the importance of safety to their own engineers and supervisors. I think safety is something that must be the concern of the supervising engineer on the job as much as of the contractor. Engineers and supervisors will have to check on the adequacy of signing before they allow works to commence. Engineers, supervisors and contractors will have to be further trained on proper signing procedures. There is already a manual and this manual will have to be brought to the attention of every engineer and supervisor and the manual will have to be updated. I do not know whether this manual requires that the first sign should be posted 500 metres from the site of the work. I would assume that the distance of the first sign from the site of work will depend upon the road. If it is an expressway, it must be much further away. If it is a minor road, it can be nearer and so on. Each department and statutory board will implement their internal feedback by their own contractors. Each department and statutory board will also step up enforcement action against the contractors for infringement of safety rules. The Traffic Police will also assist with the enforcement of safety rules using the road traffic rules and PWD itself will step up enforcement action on errant contractors who persistently flout the safety rules. As I said, there is a Committee that coordinates and controls all the road works and the Committee has, under the chairmanship of the PWD, representatives from the Ministry for the Environment, PUB, Telecoms, MRTC, HDB, JTC, Parks and Recreation and the Traffic Police. They are all represented on the Committee.”
“Sir, I would like to inform the Member again that there is a committee under the chairmanship of the PWD called the Roads Opening Coordination Committee. Perhaps what we are all looking for in terms of coordinated road opening is not possible and I will explain why in a few minutes. But first may I take again the question of warning signs at road works. As I mentioned just now, after the last discussion here in Parliament during a Question for Oral Answer, I did take up with the PWD and with the Committee as a whole. In fact, I personally called the heads of all the departments and statutory bodies who have at one time or other to dig the roads to lay services - the PUB, the MRT, Telecoms and so on. I emphasized to them the need to pay more attention to road safety signs when road works are in progress. I take this as a serious point because to me it is indicative of the inability of many Singaporeans to adjust their thinking to using modern technology. We can afford to buy cars but we have not learned to use expressway lanes properly. Contractors can afford to buy the latest equipment but they have not learned to use them with safety consciousness. In the same way, we have the money to lay cables for the best telecoms system, good electricity and water system, to build the MRT and so on. We use the best technology to do these things in terms of equipment but the people who use the equipment do not quite realize the dangers of misuse of this equipment or the dangers of not paying enough attention to the power of this equipment. That is why I spoke to the Committee to emphasize to them that much more attention must be paid to safety signs. As a result of these discussions, a number of measures to improve safety on the roads will be implemented.”
“Apart from having emphasized this point to the engineers who are in charge of the works, we must continue to demand a very high standard of safety from our contractors. If Members of the House can play their part, I think in a very short while the contractors will get the message that they cannot get away with shoddy signs at their worksites.”
“Since 1981, 181 sets of traffic lights within the city have been under the central control of a computer using a number of fixed-time plans which are brought into use at different times of the day to suit the daily traffic situations at that time of the day. Work is now in progress to update the system to be traffic-responsive, in other words, not based on a programme based on past experience but to respond immediately to the traffic situation at that time. The sensors will be an integral part of the new system. I hope that when we have this system, at least in the city, and the signals are not dumb signals, the Member when passing by will give a wave of thanks to the traffic light. Regarding the chaos created by contractors which the Member for Chua Chu Kang spoke, yes, Sir, it does happen. You cannot make an omelette without breaking eggs. In the process of building roads, contractors sometimes, even often, do not take into account the trouble they create for road users. I think we have discussed this and we can discuss this further. But I want to tell all Members that I am very conscious of this and since this matter was brought up in this House I have talked to PWD as well as all the other departments that are responsible for various road works. I myself have taken the trouble many times whenever I spotted works without proper signs and signals to draw the attention of the PWD and they have taken immediate action to rectify. If Members do come across examples, and the Member for Chua Chu Kang quoted a number of examples, and if he can ask his Personal Assistant to just give my PA a call, immediate action will be taken. I think we must keep the pressure on our contractors.”
“Mr Chairman, Sir, I was quite intrigued by the comments of the Member for Bukit Timah who wants not dumb traffic signs but smart traffic signs attached, I assume, to the latest artificial intelligence in order to be able to operate according to traffic conditions. I wish we can have this at all junctions. As Members know, all these things cost money and we try to install the latest technology and equipment where they will give us the greatest results. Signals at isolated traffic junctions at present use simple sensors to adjust timings according to traffic situation. Signals which are close to each other use fixed timings. This is to facilitate the linking of the signals to provide a green wave, a progression, for motorists. These fixed timings are, of course, based on historical data of traffic through those junctions and they are programmed according to the historical data, and when the actual traffic situation is different from the historical data, of course, the signals do not respond to the current situation. But I must say that these fixed timings are periodically updated. They are updated on the basis of data over a period of time. We do not respond to the immediate traffic situation. What the Member would like is to have some sort of sensor, especially at the junction between a major road and a minor road where the lights for traffic in the minor road will only be actuated if there is traffic on the minor road. I will ask the PWD to look into this. I do not know how much it will cost. But ultimately, of course, all this has got to be paid by the taxpayers.”
“This is a very important policy matter, Mr Chairman, Sir, and I really do not think that I should venture into this area to try and give an answer on what the policy is or when it is going to be implemented. This important policy will change land values. As the Member knows, under the present law, land is acquired at 1973 values. If land is to be acquired at values at a later date, what date it will be, and what other principles will be followed, I think it will not be fair for me to try and answer on behalf of the Minister for Law because he really is in charge of this policy. The Ministry of National Development merely carries out the implementation. The Ministry of Law tells us what to acquire. That is what MND does. So I think it being a very important matter, it can be raised at some other point. On the Member's comment that it will have an impact on the cost of land for public housing, certainly it will have an impact. It will have an impact in terms of what it is going to cost the Government. It probably will also have an impact on the subsidy.”
“Sir, this question is addressed to the wrong Ministry. It should be addressed to the Minister for Law.”
“If you require the land three years from now and meantime you let somebody have a TOL, on the basis that he will be there for three years, it is the invariable experience of HDB Resettlement Department that people who take land on TOL, with the full understanding that they will have to quit at one, two or three months' notice, never quit according to the notice period. And a lot of effort and time is required to clear them. So if land is likely to be used within a few years, two or three years, the tendency, I think, has been to leave it vacant rather than go through the hassle of giving a TOL and then finding that at the time you require it, it is difficult to clear the person holding the TOL. But the general principle I will accept. I shall certainly ask that if the land is within the responsibility of Housing Board (which I doubt is the case now) and if not I certainly will discuss with my colleagues and if some temporary and productive use can be made of the land, then we should do so. It makes sense.”
“Sir, the reason for the decrease in allocation for Land Acquisition is quite simple. The private land to be acquired in FY 87/88 is 105 hectares as against 250 hectares for FY 86/87. So a smaller area of private land is to be acquired. The main thrust of the Member for Punggol's question was the new acquisition values for land. I would like to inform the hon. Member that this is not really within the purview of the Ministry of National Development. Acquisition and acquisition values are within the purview of the Ministry of Law. So perhaps he can file a Question for Oral Answer since the Ministry of Law's head of expenditure has already been passed. On the question of acquired land which has been left idle for a long time, I would like to inform the Member for Nee Soon that for a comprehensive development of a new town, which normally takes 10 to 15 years to complete, it is not possible to acquire land in small parcels. They have to be acquired well in time, amalgamated before actual construction can begin. There has also got to be enough time for earthworks to settle, infrastructure to be laid and many other things that have to be done before the actual construction work of the new town can commence. So it may appear, of course, that, while the new town is under construction, large parcels of land are left idle. I would say this: that where land is estimated to be not required for some time, may be three to five years, some temporary use should be found for it. The problem with allowing temporary use is this.”
“I think we should seriously consider acquiring the Member for Potong Pasir's house at a little above cost and say that he is only making a book loss. After all, what is a book loss? It is not a real loss and I think he should not feel too aggrieved. Sir, if he does not understand the Government's role as Robin Hood in the land acquisition policy, then I am at a loss as to where to start to explain to him. It is because of our policy that we have made public housing possible - acquiring land at cheap prices, 1973 values, resettling the people and selling it below market value. That is a real subsidy. It is not just a book subsidy. The Government could have sold at market price and used the money for some other purpose or reduced taxes so that taxpayers benefit or we could have provided some other service at cost to the people. It is a real subsidy. It is not just a book subsidy, and I think this fact must be realized - that the Government has a responsibility to Singapore as a whole and home owners, of course they are large in numbers, but they are only a part of Singapore. We also have a responsibility to future generations. If we just sell our land at out-of- pocket cost, then I think we would have done our future generation a very great injustice. Mr Chiam See Tong: One last question. Since we know that, in fact, there is no out-of-pocket subsidy, is the HDB willing to consider reducing the price of flats sold?”
“Sir, first of all, to just pursue his example. Yes, if the land costs $2 out-of-pocket and the market value is $80, the land will be sold at $80 to HDB. If the HDB is able to recover only $60 by fixing the price at affordable levels, then the $20 is a subsidy. The Government has to give the $20 as subsidy. It is not just a book subsidy. By no means. The Government has a responsibility to the whole of Singapore. When it gets a piece of land, is the land to be used only for public housing? Aren't there other claimants? What about future generations? What about people elsewhere where the land may have cost more and affordable prices have to be kept low? Does it mean that a block of flats must be priced purely according to the direct cost of the land? Does not the Government have a responsibility to Singaporeans as a whole? Yes, as I mentioned yesterday, our public housing policy has succeeded because of the land acquisition policy. It is the political philosophy and the will of the Government that has made it possible. If not for the Robin Hood operation in which the Government is involved, public housing would not be possible.”
“When the Member sells something below market price, would he consider that as a mere book subsidy? Surely not. Would he consider selling his house for, I would say, 20% above his cost? The Member also made the point which I overlooked just now. He has identified various areas where HDB is making a loss or has shown that it is making a loss but the Member claims that it is, in fact, making a profit. Will he give me the area and will he also give me an undertaking that he would take over some of these operations? [Interruption] Yes. It is very simple. HDB says it made a loss in maintenance. HDB says it made a loss in the sale of Housing Board flats. Any other area which HDB says it has made a loss, he claims it has made a profit. Identify the area. Will he take over that function for the same price?”
“I cannot give the Member offhand the price but he can put in a Question for Oral Answer and he will get it for any particular new town. In some cases, the selling prices of HDB flats have not even covered construction cost, let alone any part of land cost. In other cases, it covers a part of land cost. The part that it covers varies from area to area. I am not able to give him any specific area but overall the fact remains that Housing Board subsidized to the tune of $1 billion in 1986.”
“I think that if the Member wants to make his point he should stand at his seat and, until you recognize him and until I sit down, he should not speak. So as I said, Mr Chairman, Sir, the town council will be given maximum latitude. The policy is very clear. As I explained, what is this all about? We want the people to learn to make decisions for themselves. And we want to do this as much as possible. The pilot scheme that we have now in Ang Mo Kio New Town, the town councils, will enable us to learn over the course of the next maybe six months to a year what exactly ought to be done. This is a very complex problem. We cannot determine before we even start implementing what exactly are the problems that will emerge. So we will in the light of experience formulate a framework for town councils that will be established elsewhere. I come now to the point made by the Member for Eunos about iron grilles and wooden doors. I am not completely familiar with this problem. It could be a design problem or it could be just a problem of workmanship, but I will certainly look into this matter. I do know that there have been instances in the past where poor designs have caused problems but I will have a look into this matter.”
“He says the town council is a mere management corporation and then he began to make a long comparison between management corporation and the town council. Well, he can try and compare it to anything which is completely different and make a long speech about what is the difference between maybe a landlord and a town council or management corporation and a town council, or anything for that matter at all and the town council. But that does not convince me that the town council is just merely a management corporation. As I already said, the town council will have more than just mere management functions or maintenance functions. The idea is to try and give the town council maximum powers to do things.”
“State land should be vested in the State and the State should then allocate the land for different uses to different Ministries depending upon the needs and the reasons that the Ministries can give to justify the use of the land. So all the land is now vested in the State. HDB has to buy the land from the State as and when it wants to build flats. As and when it requires, it obtains it, or it buys it at market price. But it sells the flats at prices which do not recover the cost of the land, and the difference is the subsidy. It is $1 billion in 1986. I think it is very simple, very plain. Even the Member himself, I am sure, will agree. As I said just now, if he has a house and he sells it to his brother at $100,000 and the market price is $250,000, and the brother says, "Well, it cost you only $20,000 20 years ago, so you are making a profit of $80,000," I do not think the Member is going to be very pleased. After having done such a big favour to his brother, the brother comes round and tells him, "Well, you made a profit of $80,000 from me." As long as assets are being sold at less than market price, it is a subsidy. It is a special favour. Town councils, well, I have already given my answer to the Member for Bo Wen. But I do note that the Member for Potong Pasir seems to be getting cold feet because it appears that he is afraid to take on the responsibility of managing his own area.”
“But it is not possible to publish it for general information. I have already stated that we will consider whether some broad categories can be made public, but I will have to discuss further with HDB on this. It is very clear from the accounts that have been presented that there is a subsidy. Whether the Member for Potong Pasir agrees with the definiton of the subsidy is beside the point. When somebody gets something below what is available on the market, that is a subsidy. It must be so. It does not mean below cost. Suppose an oil-producing country sells us oil at $8 a barrel, will we say, "Well, the oil comes almost free from the ground and therefore you are not doing us a favour"? When that same barrel can fetch $18 per barrel? That cannot be so. As long as HDB's price per flat is such that it cannot recover the market price of the land, it is a subsidy. It must be so. After all, the Government is the steward of the property of Singapore, and it cannot say, "Well, just because a particular piece of land was obtained free because it reverted to it after 99 years, therefore anything that is built on the land must have land cost attributed at zero." That certainly cannot be the case. So based on market price of land, HDB flats are subsidized to the tune of $1 billion that I referred to in the accounts for the year ending March 1986. HDB does not acquire land. The State acquires the land. HDB is a mere agent acting on behalf of the State. Previous to 1986 the land which the State asked the HDB to acquire on its behalf was left in the HDB, which I think was an error.”
“That if the town council feels that it can get somebody else to provide a service, whether it is consultant service or any other kind of service, at a lower price than what HDB can provide, then the town council should be free to make use of such services. This will mean not only that the town council would be able to get the maximum for whatever funds that it has, but it will also mean that the HDB will have to be on its toes. So for the question of exorbitant charge, there is always a way out. If there is an alternative cheaper way of doing it, by all means the town council should be allowed to pursue this alternative and cheaper solution to the problem. Terms of staff of the town council, this again is a matter of detail. We will have to look into this how the staff in the town council should be employed, what terms and conditions, who should employ them, what continuity of tenure they will have and so on. I think these are all matters that we have to discuss further during the pilot stage. I now come to the points raised by the Member for Potong Pasir. He wants to know what is the unit cost per flat. This will certainly depend upon where the flat is, what is the cost of the land, what is the cost of construction. It varies from area to area, block to block. It depends whether the block stands on good ground which does not require piling or whether it is on a former swamp which required a lot of piling. It is not possible for the HDB to publish, as I told the Member for Paya Lebar, so detailed an account in its annual report that anybody opening the account would be able to find out exactly how much his flat costs. It is just not possible to do that in a report. It does not mean that the HDB does not have the costs.”
“At least during the pilot stage we want to establish what the town councils can do within the limited funds that they are given. One factor to bear in mind, of course, is that town councils will be under tremendous pressure from the residents to do all kinds of things and very often you find that those who are the lessees of the shops or the industrial buildings are not necessarily the residents or the voters in that particular area. I certainly have some reservations about allowing complete cross subsidy because when the pressures are put on the town council the chances are that those who do not have the vote in the constituency may rank last in priority for the town council. So at least during the pilot stage we want to make a proper assessment of what would be required for different types of activity which the town council would be responsible for. The present pilot stage must be treated very much as a learning stage. The general policy is very clear. We want to try and give the maximum that we can to a town council to do the things for the residents in their area. It is not that we want to yield the minimum. That is not the approach. The approach is to try and give the maximum. I think during the period of the pilot stage we can discuss these things and try and arrive at a solution that will keep everybody satisfied. Things like opportunity to invest funds, these are all matters of detail which I think we will have to look into. Regarding the service that HDB provides, the Member said that HDB should not charge exorbitant rates. Well, HDB will charge what they think are reasonable rates. But one of the purposes of the town council is precisely this.”
“It will provide infrastructure like pedestrian malls and plazas where the private sector can develop the adjacent plots, and it will provide general guidelines for the private sector for such conservation activity. The Member then spoke on Town Councils. The Member is right. The Town Council is not purely a maintenance manager of the area. He said that Town Councils should have the opportunity to participate in certain decision making, especially regarding improvements in the neighbourhood. That will certainly be one of the areas where Housing Board would work closely with the town council. But as to whether the town council should be involved in the development of reserved sites, that is an area which I think requires further consideration. Reserved sites are quite often sites which are left undeveloped for some future use and there are also empty lots in some of the new towns because certain demands will only arise when the town becomes more mature, when more people move in. It is not as if a new town is developed completely with all the facilities and then the town council takes over. In such a case, of course, any reserved lots or empty lots may be given to the town council to develop. So I think this is a little more complicated. But the general principle that HDB should work closely with the town council in providing certain facilities in the area is accepted. I think this will be followed. As to whether cross-subsidy should be allowed, this again is quite a complicated and complex problem. At present, as I understand it, HDB allocates to the town council certain funds for particular areas of activity. For example, funds are given maybe for maintenance of commercial areas or industrial areas and so on.”
“But in time to come, these new towns will be fully supplied with all the transportation and other facilities and they will be able to enjoy the facilities and amenities that fully matured new towns enjoy now. Regarding the urban renewal policy, the Member made the point that perhaps the private sector should be given a greater role. The URA is well aware of this. In fact, URA's plans, especially the conservation plans, for the city cannot be achieved without an active role and commitment by the private sector. 75% of the identified conservation areas are owned privately. And URA strategy is to encourage as much private initiative as possible, recognizing that this is a practical way of tapping the resources and expertise in the private sector. Detailed guidelines for such conservation will be drawn up by URA for each area in the same way that such guidelines were drawn up for Emerald Hill and Boat Quay shophouses along the Singapore River. There should therefore be plenty of opportunities for the private sector to be involved in the conservation projects. But one must realize that in many areas, private owners may face difficulties in undertaking projects, eg, where ownership is fragmented or where properties are subject to rent control and they cannot get rid of existing tenants. Where the Government feels that the private sector is unable to proceed and there is urgency for action, the acquisition may be necessary as a last resort. The URA sees its role not as one of just acquiring and doing things itself. It sees its role as a facilitator in this process of conservation. So it will identify conservation areas, draw up overall plans for these areas. It will initiate projects in areas where the land is owned by the Government.”
“For a start, of course, HDB has stopped building the 3-room and 4-room simplified flats and so we have to deal with the existing stock as well as 3-room flats which will be sold to the HDB or sold to the others as a result of HDB residents upgrading. There are still 80,000 tenants in rental flats. Even if half of them, as I said just now, were to purchase flats, there is a potential 40,000 buyers there. Special incentives are being given to these residents in rental flats to upgrade themselves and buy flats. I am told that in the last two months, 5,000 applications have been received by the HDB from the 1- and 2-room rental flats. The HDB will continue to persuade applicants to take up flats in the new towns such as Yishun, Tampines, Pasir Ris and Chua Chu Kang. And as there are plans to improve the transport network including MRTC to these new towns, I think that we should get an increase in applications for flats in these new towns. It has always been the experience of HDB that every time a new town is built, it is difficult to get people to go there. I can remember long before Toa Payoh and the other new towns were built, it was difficult to get people to go to Queenstown because it was considered as too far. So it was with Toa Payoh when Toa Payoh was first built. So it was with Ang Mo Kio when it was first built. Somehow or other, people never seem to learn. They hold back and then when they are prepared to go into the new town, they find that all the flats around bus services or the town centre have been taken up. So I would urge those who are being offered flats in new towns to accept them and perhaps suffer minor inconveniences in the initial stage because of lack of transportation and other infrastructure.”
“They will assess the impact on the people concerned and try as much as possible to minimize the problems of relocation. The Member also brought up the question of the over-supply of 3-room flats. I think in an answer to a question for oral answer, I gave details of the number of flats that are completed but unsold. In that answer, I indicated that on an overall basis we have 60,000 applicants on the waiting list as against about 22,000 completed but unsold flats. But when you look into the details and compare the number of applications against the number of flats available, Members would have noted that we do have at the present moment an excess of 3-room and 4-room simplified flats. And I explained the reason why we have ended up in this present position, because the construction programme started before the change in demand pattern. Although the HDB has been constantly reviewing the supply or the construction of flats to keep it as close as possible to demand for the different types of flats, it has not been possible to completely match supply with demand. Applicants change their preference from area to area, some of them even upgrade, some downgrade and some reject flats even in the areas that they requested for. I mentioned that in order to ensure that supply would match demand more accu- rately, HDB will have to look into a system whereby applicants will be asked to give more firm commitments on the area that they want their flat. It is true, as the Member pointed out, that resources are locked up. It is more than a billion dollars. The 3-room and 4-room simplified flats alone account for close to a billion dollars. The HDB has taken various measures to encourage applicants to purchase these flats, especially those in the new towns.”
“Mr Chairman, Sir, can I take the points made by the Member for Bo Wen first? He asked for an assurance that in the relocation exercise sufficient consideration will be given to old people who are used to living in a particular area and who may suffer disruption if they are moved to areas far from where they are living now. Sir, we are aware of this problem and HDB will try its best to relocate those who are now occupying 1- and 2-room rental flats which are due for demolition to relocate them as close as possible to where they are now. But we cannot give an assurance that this can be done in all cases. In a total context of this relocation exercise, we have enough flats to relocate all those who cannot afford to buy flats. The HDB estimates that 50% of the tenants who are now the subject of relocation will purchase flats and the other 50% will have to continue renting. Over the period that the relocation would take place, it appears that we will have enough flats to house all those who cannot purchase flats. The problem is whether they can get a new rental flat in an area that they desire or prefer. I think this problem will have to be tackled constituency by constituency or area by area and it is difficult to give an overall answer that everybody will be satisfied. But the general principle is quite clear. We will try our best. But because of the location of the flats that will remain on a long-term basis, it may not be possible to rehouse everybody in their desired locality. I have asked the HDB to be very flexible in this relocation exercise and not implement the programme according to the initial concept without regard to the problems that arise during the course of the implementation. So the HDB will be quite flexible.”
“State your own argument. Why have you been quoting him?”
“Sir, the difference arises out of a difference in organization within the Ministry. First of all, the HDB and the departments of the Law Ministry are moving out of the National Development building this year and PWD will assume responsibility for maintenance of the building. So for better financial control, Utilities provision is now reflected under the Public Works Programme and not under this Head. Therefore, only a sum of $1,300 is required for fuel for office vehicles.”