Andy Burnham
Prime Minister · MP for Makerfield · Labour (Co-op) · United Kingdom
“The right hon. Lady mentions leadership. Let me tell her and the whole House where Britain is showing leadership. There have been Conservative politicians at this Dispatch Box—Labour politicians, too—for decades who have talked about the importance of the two-state solution between Israel and Palestine.”
“I cannot comment today on quasi-judicial decisions, but we will take a pragmatic approach to oil and gas, as I have said before at the Dispatch Box. Let us get to the heart of this question, as the right hon. Lady invites me to do. What is the right way to fund defence and, yes, bring the welfare budget down?”
“I do not think the right hon. Lady is on strong ground when it comes to defence spending. It was 2.5% of GDP when the last Labour Government left office. It was 2.3% of GDP when the Government she was in left office. It is now set to be 2.7% in the next year.”
“This Chancellor, of all Chancellors, will be willing to provide that funding to our armed forces and back our defence investment plan. This Government’s commitment to the defence of this country is absolute. We have taken the strongest possible stance in supporting President Zelensky and Ukraine.”
“I think there are many people watching Prime Minister’s questions across the south of England who would now like Mr Speaker to be demoted in the way that my hon. Friend suggests. [Interruption.] This is very thin ice for a Leigh Leopards supporter to be on.”
“I remember well my visit to Stourbridge; it will not leave me, actually, because of the devastation, and the loss of everything in a moment for so many families. My hon. Friend’s support for them was really visible on the day, and the community is clearly very strong; that was evident.”
The complete record
Every one of 2,246 lines we hold for Andy Burnham, in date order, each linked to its source. Free to read, in full, without an account. Page 34 of 45.
“I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for giving way so early in his speech, to which I am listening carefully. He says that the TSA process was worth it. May I press him on that? Does he really think that that was ever going to deliver a fair outcome for his local hospital, given that it followed a three-year public inquiry and the hospital lost patients and staff as a result? In the spirit of the call made by the hon. Member for Stafford (Jeremy Lefroy), should we not all unite to recognise the exceptional circumstances that the local trust has been through? Is it not the case that a TSA process could never capture the exceptional nature of what has happened to the local health economy and, in fact, it looked narrowly at the trust’s finances and sustainability? Should we not call on the Government to look at that?”
“I thoroughly agree with the Minister about collecting data on mental health so that we can make proper judgments about the quality of services, but why has the Department of Health scrapped the annual survey of expenditure on adult mental health services?”
“When he was appointed, the Health Secretary declared it his personal mission to have a “data revolution” in the NHS, but what he has presided over is a spectacular collapse in public confidence in the use of patient data. The only revolution he has created is a growing public revolt against his care.data scheme. Coming after his NHS 111 shambles and the court humiliation over Lewisham hospital, it cements a reputation for incompetence. When was he first warned about problems with care.data and what action did he take?”
“Again, the right hon. Gentleman never takes responsibility—it is always somebody else’s fault. Even by this Government’s standards, this is a master-class in incompetence. First, we have this useless glossy leaflet. He said that it has gone to every home, but that is not true, because homes that have opted out of junk mail have not received it. Many people report that they still have not had it through their letterbox. Secondly, when people cannot even get through to their GP practice on the phone, as we heard earlier, or get an appointment, he has made it almost impossible to opt out of the scheme. Has this cavalier approach not built an impression that the Government are taking patient confidentiality for granted in trying to force through the scheme, increasing public mistrust and putting the important scheme at risk?”
“I want to return to care.data—an important scheme that needs to be saved from the incompetence of this clownish coalition. The Secretary of State said earlier that I was in search of a crisis, but now I will offer him a solution. If the Government work with us to introduce a series of tough new safeguards to protect patients, we will work with the Secretary of State to help rescue this failing plan. Those safeguards include tougher penalties for the misuse of data, Secretary of State sign-off on any application to access data, full transparency on organisations granted access, and new opt-out arrangements by phone or online. Will he meet me to discuss changes to the Care Bill to put that important scheme back on track?”
“I welcome the Home Secretary’s statement and express my continued admiration for how she is leading this process. People might think of the families’ battle as being won, but in truth only now are they entering the most difficult period of all. Parents such as my constituent, Delia Brown, are only now finding out basic details about what happened to their sons and daughters between 3.15 and 4 o’clock. With that in mind, does the Home Secretary share my disgust and disbelief that South Yorkshire police have today, using public money, rerun slurs about alcohol that were dismissed by Lord Justice Taylor in 1989 and by the Hillsborough Independent Panel in 2012?”
“In truth, the picture is complex and a range of factors has contributed to the rise. However, it is possible to point to underlying causes. One of those is clearly the general economic climate. People have been living under greater pressure and are struggling with the cost of living. A and E has become the last resort for people who are not able to cope for a range of reasons. If Members speak to A and E staff, they will be told that there has been a rise in people arriving at A and E who have a range of problems linked to their living circumstances, from people who have severe dental pain because they cannot afford to see the dentist, to people who are suffering a breakdown or who are in crisis, to people who cannot afford to keep warm and are suffering a range of cold-related conditions.”
“Our purpose in calling this debate is twofold. First, we want to help the House to develop a more sophisticated understanding of the underlying reasons for the sustained pressure in accident and emergency departments throughout England. Secondly, we want to remove what we see as the major barrier to a lasting solution in A and E. What has been happening in A and E over recent years? Between 2007 and 2010, attendances at A and E were fairly stable, although they rose slightly. Over those three years, attendances at hospital A and E departments increased by 16,000. Between 2010 and 2013, something changed. In the first three years of this Government, attendances at A and E increased by a staggering 633,000. What is going on? It is all too easy to reach for simplistic answers.”
“I beg to move, That this House is concerned about recent pressure in Accident and Emergency departments and the increase in the number of people attending hospital A&Es since 2009-10; notes a recent report by the Care Quality Commission which found that more than half a million people aged 65 and over were admitted as an emergency to hospital with potentially avoidable conditions in the last year; believes that better integration to improve care in the home or community can relieve pressure on A&E; notes comments made by the Chief Executive of NHS England in oral evidence to the Health Select Committee on 5 November 2013, that the NHS is getting bogged down in a morass of competition law, that this is causing significant cost and that to make integration happen there may need to be legislative change; is further concerned that the competition aspects of the Health and Social Care Act 2012 are causing increased costs in the NHS at a time when there is a shortage of A&E doctors; and calls on the Government to reverse its changes to NHS competition policy that are holding back the integration needed to help solve the A&E crisis and diverting resources which should be better spent on improving patient care.”
“We need to have a bit of truth in this debate.”
“No, I do not accept that. This has been the worst year in a decade in A and E departments. Almost 1 million people have waited more than four hours to be seen. In my year as Secretary of State for Health, the figure was 350,000. There has been a big increase in the number of people who are waiting a long time. I was going to come on to the average waiting time, but since the hon. Gentleman mentions it, let me make the situation clear now. The figure that he is talking about and which appears in the Government amendment relates to the waiting time until an initial assessment, not the total waiting time in A and E. [ Interruption. ] The Secretary of State is nodding because, as ever with him, it is all about the spin. That figure does not mean anything to the public. They want to know how long they will spend waiting in A and E in total.”
“That is an indictment of the Government. They have made it harder for people to afford a good basic diet. We have seen a rise in hypothermia, rickets and scurvy. Sadly, we have also seen the rise of food banks under this Government. That is why I am beginning my speech by saying that there is a range of reasons for the sustained pressure on A and E.”
“I will make a little progress and then I will give way. There have been record levels of hypothermia this year and thousands of over-75s have been treated in hospital for respiratory or circulatory diseases. That brings me to the second underlying cause of the increase in attendances at A and E. The ageing society is not a distant prospect on the horizon. Demographic change is happening now and it is applying increasing pressure on the front line of the NHS. We all need to face up to the uncomfortable fact that our hospitals are increasingly full of extremely frail elderly people. Too many older people are in hospital who ought not to have ended up there or who are trapped there because they cannot get the right support to go home. That situation is unacceptable and it has to be addressed.”
“The hon. Lady wants me to answer that question, but I direct her to her right hon. Friend, the Chairman of the Health Committee, who has dismissed the self-serving spin from the Government that says that these problem are all to do with a contract that was signed 10 years ago. I began my speech by citing figures that show an exponential rise in the number of people attending A and E since 2010. Many of those people are very frail older people. That is the issue before the House, so it does not help the debate for the hon. Lady to stand up and make a spurious political point.”
“If there is a problem anywhere in the system, it will be seen eventually as pressure in A and E. That is what is happening. The simplistic spin from the Conservative party, which says that it is all to do with a GP contract from 10 years ago, is discounted by expert after expert.”
“My hon. Friend is absolutely right. I will come on to say that the single most important underlying cause of the A and E crisis is the severe cuts that we have seen to adult social care. That has created a situation in which older people are trapped on the ward and cannot go home because there is not adequate support at home. That means that A and E cannot admit to the ward because the beds are full. Hospitals are operating way beyond safe occupancy levels. Because of that, the whole hospital begins to jam up and the pressure backs up through A and E. When A and E cannot admit to the ward it becomes full, so ambulances queue up outside because they cannot hand people over to A and E. That is exactly what is happening in our NHS at the moment. A and E is the barometer of the whole health and care system.”
“I fear my hon. Friend is absolutely right. I know Warrington hospital well and the pressures that have been on it, and I agree that ambulance response times have increased across the country because so many ambulances have been held in queues outside A and E, unable to hand over patients to A and E staff because it is full. That has left large swathes of the country—particularly in rural areas—without adequate ambulance cover, and very serious incidents have taken place across the country, not least in the Minister’s area of Norfolk where people have not received ambulances on time. That is the consequence of the pressure on A and E not being addressed, and it is threatening to drag down the rest of the NHS.”
“My hon. Friend’s point was also made powerfully by ambulance staff at an A and E summit held by the shadow Front-Bench team in Parliament before Christmas when a paramedic spoke of the phenomenon she has just described. He mentioned an occasion when staff were at the door of A and E waiting to hand over a patient to A and E staff, when the patient had a heart attack. The staff did not know what to do and had to go back to the ambulance to try to stabilise the patient. Those sorts of joining points or disconnects in the system are leading to real pressure on staff who do not know what to do in those difficult circumstances. The system is in danger of being overwhelmed, and the pressure on staff must be addressed urgently.”
“Yes, there has always been pressure on the ambulance service at this time of year, but if the Minister wants me to join in with his complacency, I am afraid I will not. The past 12 months have been the worst in A and E in a decade, and there are reports of ambulances across the country held in queues. Is the Minister satisfied with the performance of the ambulance service in his region of east England? Was he satisfied with the way the case I mentioned was handled? I do not believe he was or that his complacency at the Dispatch Box will be appreciated by his constituents.”
“I acknowledged that there is always pressure in A and E, but the fact is that it performed better in every month when I was Health Secretary than it has under the current Health Secretary. The hon. Gentleman mentions Norfolk again. We have been looking at the Minister’s website, which makes us wonder whether he considers himself a Minister or an observer of events in the NHS. Under the headline “Norman Lamb’s North Norfolk Ambulance Survey” he states: “I have been campaigning over the last year to improve unacceptable ambulance response times in rural Norfolk.” My God, this is the Minister! He is campaigning against his own Government.”
“My hon. Friend is absolutely right, and I would love the Government to explain that everything is fine and that there is no problem at all to more than 100,000 people who have waited more than four hours on a trolley this year, or almost 1 million people who have waited more than four hours in A and E. The complacency is not justified, and if those people were to read the Government’s motion, I am afraid, quite frankly, they would be astonished.”
“I am afraid that under the coalition, NHS treatment for “Gove-itis” is being rationed, like everything else, unfortunately. As my hon. Friend said, the Government claim they are keeping A and Es and call them “local” A and Es, but they are actually downgrading A and E units all over the country. How can it make sense to close and downgrade A and Es in the midst of an A and E crisis? In west London, as my hon. Friend knows, incredible changes are being introduced without proper regard for the evidence I am presenting to the House today of a change in A and E and of sustained pressure on A and E units. The Government must go back and consider their plans for my hon. Friend’s constituency and the rest of London.”
“Now it is back with a vengeance, although it is different. The winter/spring crisis has become a summer/autumn crisis too. The pressure is relentless and it needs a proper, lasting solution.”
“I will put forward a solution that the hon. Gentleman might support. I think he supported the campaign to oppose the Government’s Health and Social Care Bill, and I pay credit to him for that as we worked across party lines on that issue. It is my job to hold the Government to account where there are problems in the national health service, and if the Minister is saying to me that there are no problems in the health service right now, I am afraid I do not agree with him. Emergency services are under intense pressure. If he looks back to our time in government, as he invited me to do, he will see that the winter crisis was a regular feature at the turn of the millennium and the early years of the last decade, although it got progressively better and better and we did not see the annual winter crisis.”
“When people reach an advanced age it is simply not possible to separate out their physical, social and mental needs. Need becomes a blur of all three. Our hospitals are not geared up to provide the additional mental and social support that very frail elderly people often need.”
“They said that they could not get through to Ministers who were obsessed with structural reorganisation. They were left feeling like John the Baptist crying in the wilderness—their words. Perhaps before the hon. Gentleman shouts the odds in the House, he should speak to the people who know about these things and who warned his Government —who failed to act. One of the major problems with the pressure on A and E is the number of older people trapped in hospital. This is a product of demographic pressure and the ageing society. Nursing staff talk of how, when they first qualified, it was rare to see someone in their 90s on the ward. Now they are there in great numbers and that makes the task of meeting their needs much more complex.”
“First, I would be grateful if the hon. Gentleman did not continue to misrepresent what I said on the NHS. I have never said, “Cut the NHS”. I stood at the last election on a commitment to protect the NHS budget in real terms. He stood on a manifesto promising real-terms increases for the NHS. I said that if there were to be increases for the NHS, they should be given to social care instead, and that would have relieved some of the pressures on A and E. Let us have the facts straight. Secondly, the hon. Gentleman boasts about having enough A and E doctors. Perhaps he should speak to people from the College of Emergency Medicine and hear what they have to say on that subject. They talk of warning the Government of a recruitment crisis in A and E about two or three years ago.”
“I have given way to the hon. Lady once: I want to make some progress. Some, but not all, of the needs of older people are met in an acute hospital environment, which explains why their condition often drops like a stone. It is a phenomenon that was accurately identified by Robert Francis QC in his report, published a year ago this week. He called for an overhaul of the way in which older people are cared for in acute hospitals. He was right to do so, and while I applaud some of the steps the Secretary of State has taken in that regard, such as the move towards a named consultant, I do not believe it will tackle the root cause of the problem, which is the arrival of far too many older people in hospital in the first place. Only when that is tackled will we begin to address the underlying causes of the A and E crisis.”
“The hon. Gentleman should climb off his high horse for a moment. In answer to an important point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Stretford and Urmston (Kate Green), I pointed to the increase in cases of scurvy, rickets and malnutrition. If he wants— [ Interruption. ] If he wants to deny that that is the case, that is up to him— [ Interruption. ] If he speaks to A and E staff, he will hear that people who are not eating properly are turning up in ever greater numbers— [ Interruption. ] I have answered his point and I will now make some progress. It is the case that too many older people are arriving at hospital in the first place. A recent Care Quality Commission report found avoidable emergency admissions for pensioners topping 500,000 for the first time— [ Interruption. ]”
“The beard is certainly helping. I suggest that the hon. Member for Taunton Deane (Mr Browne) visit Liverpool Walton, because he will see more food banks there than anywhere else in the country. He will meet families who cannot afford to put enough food on the table to give their kids a decent diet. He will see the direct effects of some of his Government’s policies on some of the most deprived communities in the country.”
“I agree, and the last time we had a debate on this issue I quoted a well-known GP who said that she has taken to asking her patients whether they are eating properly, because many are presenting with unexplained symptoms that she cannot identify. People on several prescription medicines who are not eating properly are putting themselves at risk—”
“Hospitals are operating way beyond safe recommended bed occupancy levels, with increasing numbers of frail, elderly people on the wards. That means that A and E finds it increasingly difficult to admit people, and pressure backs up through A and E. The Government’s amendment seems to have been written in a parallel universe. Let us get this clear: the last 12 months have been the worst in A and E for a decade. Hospital A and Es have missed the Government’s target in 44 out of the last 52 weeks. How can that equate to A and E performing strongly, as the amendment suggests? It serves only to confirm an impression that has been building about this Secretary of State since he took office: that he seems to spend more time paying attention to spin doctors than he does to real doctors.”
“I began by saying that the reasons for the rise in A and E attendances were complex. I did not say—if the hon. Gentleman was listening—that there were any simplistic reasons. I did say that there had been a rise in malnutrition and diseases linked to it. If hon. Members on the other side of the House want to dispute that fact, I will have that debate any time they wish. They seek to suggest that malnutrition is not a problem, but they are confirming how out of touch they are. As I was saying, the number of emergency admissions of pensioners has topped 500,000 for the first time. It is rising faster than the increase in the ageing population. There were 65,000 more emergency admissions in the last 12 months compared to the previous 12 months, a clear sign of more frail, elderly people ending up in A and E.”
“My hon. Friend is absolutely right. She knows the pressure people are under in our area. What we have heard from the Government is denial that this is the reality in many parts of the country. [ Interruption. ] We can hear them shouting now, claiming that it is a myth that people are using food banks and not eating properly, and that they cannot afford to heat their homes because of the rise in fuel bills under this Government. All of that is placing extra pressure on A and E, and people are waiting longer and longer to be seen.”
“Not for the first time, Government Members are showing how out of touch they are with what is happening. The hon. Lady says that she is not aware that any family is unable to afford a prescription item. Let me put her straight: that is what many families are facing at the moment, particularly those who are in work, who do not get free prescriptions. They are facing difficult choices about whether they can afford to buy their prescriptions. If she is saying she does not recognise that problem, then I am afraid she really needs to get out of this place a bit more.”
“That brings me to the second part of our debate today: the solution. What is clear to most people is that there will not be a solution to the sustained pressure on A and E without better integration of hospital services with social care, primary care and more collaboration between the two. What is also clear is that there is now great frustration among people working in the NHS that they are being prevented from developing solutions to the A and E crisis by a large barrier standing in their way: the Health and Social Care Act 2012. This Government like to talk about integration, but the fact is that they have legislated for fragmentation. Under this Government, market madness has run riot throughout the NHS and is now holding back solutions to the care that older people need.”
“One of the main reasons for the intense pressure on A and E is the collapse of social care in England. In December, a report from the Personal Social Services Research Unit found that, due to local government cuts, social care support in the home has been withdrawn from about 500,000 older and vulnerable people. These are people who were receiving support in the home, but are no longer getting any help. Even for those people still receiving some support, we continue to hear stories of corners being cut: slapdash 15-minute visits where staff have to choose between helping people wash or helping people eat. If we carry on like this, our hospitals will become more and more full of older people. A and E will be overwhelmed by the pressure and that really is no answer to the ageing society.”
“He should say that to the 131,000 people left waiting on trolleys for more than four hours. He should say that to the people finding it harder to get a GP appointment under his Government, left ringing the surgery at 9 am to be told that nothing is available. He should tell that to the families of children who have suffered a mental health crisis, but are told that there are no beds available anywhere in the country and end up being held in police cells. The truth is that the Government have failed to get the A and E crisis under control and it is threatening to drag down the rest of the NHS. In the past 12 months trolley waits are up, waiting times are up, emergency admissions are up, cancelled operations are up and delayed discharges are up, too. That is the reality of what is happening in the NHS.”
“My hon. Friend puts his finger on it. There are families who are choosing between eating, heating or other essentials, such as prescriptions. That is the reality for many families and it is having an impact on their health. For those on the Government Benches not to recognise that that is the reality of life for many people, I fear for the state that we are in. They have been shouting at me for the past few minutes about scurvy. I can tell the hon. Member for Taunton Deane (Mr Browne) that the number of admissions has doubled. There are a relatively small number of cases, but they are on the rise. He really should not sit there barracking and dismissing the whole problem. He would do well to look at the facts. Today, the Secretary of State says that the NHS got better in the past year.”
“Recently, we heard of two CCGs in Blackpool that have been referred to Monitor for failing to send enough patients to a private hospital. The CCG says that there is a good reason for that: patients can be treated better in the community, avoiding costly unnecessary hospital visits. That is not good enough for the new NHS, however, so the CCG has had to hire an administrator to collect thousands of documents, tracking every referral from GPs and spending valuable resources that could have been spent on the front line.”
“I agree with the hon. Gentleman. There are examples of good practice out there, but I suggest that he speaks to chief executives of clinical commissioning groups and trusts. They are telling me that the competition regime introduced by his Government is a barrier to that kind of sensible collaboration. The chief executive of a large NHS trust near here says that he tried to create a partnership with GP practices and social care, but was told by his lawyers that he could not because it was anti-competitive. Does the hon. Gentleman support that? Is that what he thought he was legislating for when he voted for the Health and Social Care Act? People are being held back from doing the right thing for fear of breaking this Government’s competition rules.”
“That is not just what I say; listen to what the chief executive of NHS England told the Health Committee about the market madness that we now have in the NHS: “I think we’ve got a problem, we may need legislative change…What is happening at the moment…we are getting bogged down in a morass of competition law…causing significant cost and frustration for people in the service in making change happen. If that is the case, to make integration happen we will need to change it”— that is, the law. That is from the chief executive of NHS England.”
“My hon. Friend is right. For the very first time in the history of the NHS, competition intervenes to block sensible collaboration between two hospitals seeking to improve care and make savings. Since when have we allowed competition lawyers to call the shots instead of clinicians? The Government said that they were going to put GPs in charge. Instead, they have put the market in charge of these decisions and that is completely unjustifiable. The chief executive of Poole hospital said that it cost it more than £6 million in lawyers and paperwork and that without the merger the trust will now have an £8 million deficit. That is what has happened.”
“Will the Secretary of State clarify? Is that a statement of official Government policy? Is it his policy to get more private sector companies and more competition into the NHS? Is that what he wants? If that happens, it will mean more enforced competition leading to the fragmentation of care, and it will load extra costs on to the NHS at the worst possible time.”
“Member for Sutton and Cheam (Paul Burstow), said the same: “The one area I have my concerns about is the way”— the 2012 Act— “opened up the role of the OFT.” Yes, but did we not tell him that two years ago when he voted for the Act and when his hon. Friend the Member for St Ives (Andrew George), who is sitting next to him, joined us in the Lobby to oppose it? This is exactly what we warned them about. We warned them that it would let the market run riot through the NHS, but they would not listen, and that is why we are where we are today. It is not just Ministers who are saying it; the comments by the chair of the Care Quality Commission at the weekend show the utter confusion in Government policy on competition in the NHS: “We need more competition…more entrants into the market from private-sector companies”.”
“No, it was your law, your Government’s law, the Health and Social Care Act 2012—the same law against which his own care Minister, the hon. Member for North Norfolk (Norman Lamb), has recently been speaking out. He recently told the King’s Fund: “I have a problem with the OFT being involved in all of these procurement issues… I think that’s got to change… In my view I think it should be scrapped in the future… That might happen at some future date… we’ve got to look at the barriers and address them and sort them out.” Is that just his view, or the view of the whole Government? [Interruption.] He voted to let the OFT into the NHS. Why is he now changing his tune? The former care Minister, the right hon.”
“We are seeing this across the NHS. We have also seen contracts going to companies whose shareholders are Tory party donors. The closeness of the links between the Tory party and private health care is worrying. Since April, when their Act came in, seven out of the 10 contracts let have gone outside the NHS. That is the clearest of all wake-up calls about what is happening to the NHS under this Government: it is being broken up and sold off. Under section 75 of the Act, clinicians have to put services out to tender, regardless of whether they are performing well, and that is the big difference between this Government and the last one. They are enforcing competition and marketisation in the NHS, but nobody voted for it.”
“Let me explain the difference to the Minister. When we were in government we used the private sector in a supporting role to help bring down NHS waiting times; he is using the private sector to replace the public NHS. There is a very big difference. He might remember that as Secretary of State I introduced the NHS preferred provider policy. At the time, his party complained—it said it was wrong—but I did it because I believed in the public NHS. I believe in what it stands for, unlike him and his party.”
“The Minister looks pleased with himself, but I am afraid he has got his facts wrong. We did not introduce the private sector into the NHS; it has always worked with the private sector to relieve pressure on waiting lists. As a doctor, he should know that. He might also know that waiting lists and times came right down under the last Government, because the private sector supported the NHS, and I am proud of how we brought waiting lists down, but he is using the private sector to replace the public NHS. He is saying that any qualified provider can provide NHS contracts. I had a policy of designating the NHS as the preferred provider. So let us get the facts straight. There is a major difference between the two positions.”
“The choice on the NHS in 2015 is becoming clear: it can stay on the fast track to fragmentation or it can return to its values of putting integration over fragmentation, collaboration over competition, and people before profits. That is what the Opposition believe in. Let us have that debate so that we can save our NHS for future generations.”