Andy Burnham
Prime Minister · MP for Makerfield · Labour (Co-op) · United Kingdom
“The right hon. Lady mentions leadership. Let me tell her and the whole House where Britain is showing leadership. There have been Conservative politicians at this Dispatch Box—Labour politicians, too—for decades who have talked about the importance of the two-state solution between Israel and Palestine.”
“I cannot comment today on quasi-judicial decisions, but we will take a pragmatic approach to oil and gas, as I have said before at the Dispatch Box. Let us get to the heart of this question, as the right hon. Lady invites me to do. What is the right way to fund defence and, yes, bring the welfare budget down?”
“I do not think the right hon. Lady is on strong ground when it comes to defence spending. It was 2.5% of GDP when the last Labour Government left office. It was 2.3% of GDP when the Government she was in left office. It is now set to be 2.7% in the next year.”
“This Chancellor, of all Chancellors, will be willing to provide that funding to our armed forces and back our defence investment plan. This Government’s commitment to the defence of this country is absolute. We have taken the strongest possible stance in supporting President Zelensky and Ukraine.”
“I think there are many people watching Prime Minister’s questions across the south of England who would now like Mr Speaker to be demoted in the way that my hon. Friend suggests. [Interruption.] This is very thin ice for a Leigh Leopards supporter to be on.”
“I remember well my visit to Stourbridge; it will not leave me, actually, because of the devastation, and the loss of everything in a moment for so many families. My hon. Friend’s support for them was really visible on the day, and the community is clearly very strong; that was evident.”
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Every one of 2,246 lines we hold for Andy Burnham, in date order, each linked to its source. Free to read, in full, without an account. Page 37 of 45.
“Given that this Government are bringing into the NHS more outside providers, patients will need reassurance that we do not have an uneven playing field where private providers face less scrutiny. So will the Secretary of State extend the duty of candour to all health care organisations, as Francis proposed? His amendments to the Care Bill do not make that clear. And should not he now commit to extending freedom of information law to any provider of NHS services? On openness, Francis made a direct call on the Government to set an example to the rest of the NHS.”
“Is it not the case that an individual duty as proposed by Francis is essential? This point comes over clearly from the evidence given to Francis from a senior, soon to be retired consultant. He said: “I took the path of least resistance . . . here were also veiled threats at the time, that I should not rock the boat at my stage in life.” It is only when an individual is both required to speak out, and protected in doing so, that this House can say it has done enough to safeguard patients. The duty of openness and transparency should apply equally to all organisations providing NHS services including, as Francis rightly recommends, contractors providing outsourced services.”
“Was not Robert Francis right to recommend a system of regulation for health care assistants and, going forward, will the Government reconsider their decision to rule this out? Overall, although there is progress on staffing today, it does not go far enough and we will continue to challenge the Government on it. Thirdly, on culture change, Francis’s central proposal is a new duty of candour on organisations and individuals. Extending the duty to organisations is a step forward, but patient groups are disappointed today that it will cover only the most serious incidents. Can the right hon. Gentleman say why it has not been extended to all incidents of harm? Further, it is not clear how an organisational duty alone will help individuals challenge an organisation where there is a dysfunctional culture.”
“Further, can he explain why he stopped short of requiring safe staffing levels? Is he further aware that nurse training places have been severely cut in recent years and trusts are being forced to recruit overseas? Alongside nursing, more action is needed to raise standards across the caring work force. As Robert Francis has said, it is unacceptable that the security guard at the door of the hospital is more regulated, and subject to professional sanctions, than the health care assistant attending to an elderly patient. The development of the care certificate as proposed by Camilla Cavendish is a step forward, but will it not work only alongside a register of those who hold it and an ability to remove it if they fall short?”
“Secondly, on the issue of staffing numbers and training, the first Francis report found that Mid Staffs made dangerous cuts to front-line staffing over a short period. I welcome the Government’s new focus on this issue, but is it not the case that nurse-patient ratios across the NHS have got significantly worse in the past three years, with 5,890 fewer nurses, more older patients in hospital and bed occupancy running at record levels? It is encouraging that the NHS has plans to recruit more nurses this year, and is introducing more monitoring. The Secretary of State says “things are already changing for the better”, but is he aware that Monitor has warned that trusts are planning major nurse redundancies in the 2014-16 period, far outweighing any increases this year? Will he intervene now to stop that?”
“Both Francis reports found three primary and fundamental causes of what went wrong: a failure to listen to patients; a lack of properly trained staff; and a dysfunctional culture. I shall take each of those issues in turn. First, I am sure the Secretary of State agrees with me that patients and their families must always, as Francis recommends, be the first priority for the NHS. That principle unites this House and it must also unite the NHS. Is not Robert Francis right to recommend that the NHS constitution, and the ethos it sets out, should be required reading for all NHS staff? I congratulate the right hon. Gentleman on agreeing to implement the Clywd review in full and change the way the NHS handles complaints.”
“What happened at Mid Staffs was a betrayal of the NHS and its values. The previous Government rightly apologised, but now is the time to back our words with action. That is why, although I welcome much of what the Secretary of State has just said, it is my job to press him on where we feel he could have gone further and to question why, of the 290 Francis recommendations, 86 are not being implemented in full. First, let me, too, pay tribute to my right hon. Friend the Member for Cynon Valley (Ann Clwyd), Professor Tricia Hart, Professor Sir Bruce Keogh, Camilla Cavendish, Professor Don Berwick and, of course, Robert Francis. Between them, they have given us proposals that will help to prevent a repeat but, more importantly, as the Secretary of State said, change the whole of the NHS for the better.”
“(Urgent Question): To ask the Secretary of State for Health if he will update the House on Professor Sir Bruce Keogh’s urgent and emergency care review following this morning’s briefing to the media.”
“When are the Government going to show this House and the country some respect, cut the spin, and give us the real picture about a crisis that is happening right now?”
“Will the Secretary of State stop further closures of walk-in centres? Does he now accept that his 111 helpline is flawed, and will he put nurses back on the end of the phone, rather than call handlers? And what of the recruitment crisis in A and E? There is a shortage of senior A and E doctors and, according to the Royal College of Nursing, 20,000 too few nurses. Will the Secretary of State give a clear commitment to bring all A and Es back up to safe staffing levels? Last week, a complacent Prime Minister stood there, told us everything was fine, and even claimed that the average waiting time in A and E had gone down to 50 minutes, but that is not true. I have here a written reply from the public health Minister telling us it has gone up to over two and half hours.”
“It should not be for us to drag the Secretary of State here to give Members information already passed to journalists. Let me remind the House what the Secretary of State said at Health questions in July. He said that Bruce Keogh’s review “will report this autumn, precisely so that we can make sure we learn any lessons we need to learn for this winter”. —[ Official Report , 13 July 2013; Vol. 566, c. 902.] To hear him now, it was all about the long term. Let me ask him: what are those lessons, and what immediate action is he now taking ahead of winter? Weekend briefings suggested Sir Bruce emphasises alternatives to A and E, such as walk-in centres and 111, but Monitor reported yesterday that one in four walk-in centres have been closed and others are today under threat of closure. We need a clear answer.”
“Rarely has this House been treated to a more disrespectful and complacent reply. There are new reports today of 12,000 patients spending 12 hours or more on trolleys in A and E. A and E is in crisis according to the College of Emergency Medicine, and this is before the winter has even started. People are increasingly asking, “Where are the Government and what are they doing about it?” So far all they have heard is, “Crisis? What crisis?” But behind the scenes it is a different story. Such is the panic in Whitehall, the Prime Minister has apparently taken personal charge and this morning the media were given a private briefing on a major review of emergency care. What is going on and why is the Secretary of State running scared, blaming NHS England and trying to keep this House in the dark?”
“People are seeing through a Prime Minister whose broken promises on the NHS are catching up with him. Has it ever been clearer than it is today that people simply cannot trust the Tories with the NHS?”
“It will not have escaped people’s notice that the Secretary of State is trying to put powers through the House quite soon to grab further powers for himself and drive through financial closures of A and Es without proper consultation, so that in effect he can do what he tried to do to Lewisham to every community in England. That will send a chill wind through those communities that fear to lose their A and Es, and that is why we will oppose those powers when they are considered by the House. In conclusion, the Government have come a long way since the Prime Minister stood outside Chase Farm hospital days after the last general election and promised a moratorium on all hospital changes. Local people in west London will not have forgotten the Prime Minister standing outside Ealing and Central Middlesex hospitals and promising the same.”
“Instead, he ploughed on, throwing around taxpayers’ money in a cavalier fashion, to protect his pride and defend the indefensible. I have a simple question: how much has he spent on appealing that decision? When he decided to appeal, did the official legal advice from the Government recommend an appeal or did he overrule it? Will he confirm today to this House and to the people of Lewisham that there will be no further appeal against the court’s ruling? Will he give the people of Lewisham and the staff who work at Lewisham hospital a commitment that their A and E and maternity services will be protected? Finally, will he apologise to the people of Lewisham for the unnecessary distress and worry he has put them through?”
“What guarantee do people have that he will follow through on this promise, when he broke the promise that he made to his hon. Friend? The Secretary of State has made a statement on London health services. People will not have missed the fact that he has failed to mention Lewisham hospital and what happened at the Court of Appeal yesterday. Is that not a staggering omission? The victory that was won by the people of Lewisham will give hope to people who are disappointed by today’s announcement. The humiliation of the Secretary of State in court again raises major questions about his judgment and his ability to manage such important decisions. In the summer, we explicitly warned him to accept the first court ruling.”
“They will face much greater costs and journey times in getting to hospital. Will the Secretary of State be straight with us on the much-loved Charing Cross and Ealing hospitals? I listened carefully to what he said. What is the “further work” that he referred to? He spoke of their A and Es being of a different size and shape. Is that not spin for saying that the units will be downgraded and become urgent care centres? Alternatively, is he giving those units a permanent reprieve today? If he cannot answer those questions directly, local people in those areas will take what he has said as weasel words. The Secretary of State said that there will be investment in communities before the changes go ahead. He said that to the hon. Member for Enfield North (Nick de Bois) in respect of Chase Farm hospital, but he is closing that unit next month.”
“I understand how tough such decisions are. Sometimes, difficult changes need to be made, as I found when I reorganised stroke services in London before the last election. When he does the right thing, based on a clear clinical case that lives will be saved, we will support him, as we did on children’s heart surgery. The problem with the closure programme, as managers admitted to Members of the House at the outset, is that it is primarily about saving money, not saving lives. Even though the Secretary of State has made some minor concessions today, he is still performing pretty brutal surgery on west London’s NHS. It is the single biggest hospital closure programme the NHS has ever seen. Has he considered the impact of the changes on people in those communities who are on low incomes?”
“Four years ago, A and E was not in the crisis that it faces today. The reality on the ground in London has changed. In 2013, A and Es in London have been getting worse and worse and worse. Across London, 200,000 people have waited in A and E for longer than four hours in the past 12 months. Here is the statistic that should make people stop and think: taking all its major A and E units together, London has missed the Government’s A and E target in 48 of the last 52 weeks. Any further changes to this fragile and overburdened system must proceed with the utmost caution. Will the Secretary of State give me a categorical assurance that he personally gave in-depth consideration to the latest evidence of the pressure on London A and Es and to the changed reality that 2013 has brought before making his decision?”
“People at home will have listened carefully to what the Secretary of State has just said, and they will have one simple question in their mind: why is this man trying to close so many A and Es when we are in the middle of an A and E crisis? At least seven A and Es across the capital are under threat, at a time when all London A and Es are working flat out and are full to capacity. As we stand here, thousands of people are waiting to be seen, stuck on trolleys or held in the back of ambulances that are queuing outside A and E. When the A and Es we have are struggling to cope, how on earth can it be safe to close or downgrade so many? That brings me to what I see as the major flaw in what the Secretary of State has announced. These plans have been in development for four years, as he said.”
“I apologise, Mr Dobbin, for the fact that I cannot stay for the whole debate. I am here to show solidarity with my right hon. Friend the Member for Wythenshawe and Sale East (Paul Goggins), who has represented his constituents outstandingly, and with Peter Mossman and Fred and Eleanor Bates, whom I met in my office with my right hon. Friend when I was Health Secretary. I want my right hon. Friend and his constituents to understand that the commitment I gave to them was not a one-off, convenient commitment, but a permanent one. If I were to find myself back in government, that commitment would remain. Does my right hon. Friend agree that there needs to be a further process of truth and reconciliation, so that those concerned have all the answers for which they are still looking?”
“The Secretary of State has been in post for a year, and in that time we have got used to his style: everything is always someone else’s fault, be it lazy GPs, uncaring nurses or the last Government. And today we see more diversion tactics—now immigration is to blame. But there is an inconvenient truth that gets clearer day by day and which he cannot spin away: A and E is getting worse and worse and worse on his watch. We have had ambulance queues, a treatment tent in a car park and now police cars doubling as ambulances, with a patient dying on the backseat. The NHS stands on the brink of a dangerous winter. Will he today set out in detail what he personally is doing to avert a crisis?”
“This complacent spin is no good to the NHS. If he wants to compare records, let us do that. Under me, 98 per cent. of people were seen within four hours; under him, over 1 million people in the last year waited more than four hours in A and E—not only a winter crisis, but the first summer A and E crisis in living memory. Today it gets worse. New figures this morning show a further 450 nursing jobs have been cut, taking the total close to 6,000 under this Government. But what were they doing last night? They were voting in the Lords against safe staffing levels. Will he now listen to the experts, stop the job cuts and take immediate action to ensure that all A and Es have enough staff to provide safe care this winter?”
“(Urgent Question) : To ask the Secretary of State for Health if he will make a statement on his plans to alleviate pressure on accident and emergency departments.”
“All the while the Secretary of State blames a contract signed 10 years ago for today’s pressure he neglects the real causes of his A and E crisis. That is dangerous and it cannot carry on. Patients and staff cannot go through another year in A and E like the one we have just had. He should cut the spin, get a grip or go.”
“The truth is that it is the Government who have let GP practices stop evening and weekend surgeries, and it is the Government who ended the guarantee of appointments within 48 hours. What is he doing to restore patient access to GPs? Thirdly, on social care, in the first two years of this Government there was an appalling 66% increase in the number of people aged over 90 coming into A and E via a blue-light ambulance—that is more than 100,000 very frail and frightened people in the backs of ambulances speeding through our cities and towns. That is a scandal, and it is more to do with social care cuts than anything else. I do not know how many more times I am going to have to ask the Secretary of State this: when will he do something to stop the collapse of social care in England?”
“It is not good enough that we have had to drag him here on an issue of huge importance to our constituents. With his spin about the GP contract, he neglects the real causes. First, on staffing, we learn today of the shocking shortage of doctors covering A and Es overnight, and we heard at the weekend reports of A and Es up and down the land without enough staff. More than 5,000 nursing jobs have been lost on the Government’s watch—and counting. Enough is enough. When will the Secretary of State stop the job cuts and ensure that all A and Es have enough staff to provide safe care? Secondly, on GP opening hours, the Secretary of State tries to blame the 2004 contract but conveniently ignores the fact that A and E performance improved between 2004 and 2010.”
“This Secretary of State has been in office for one year—the worst year in A and E in a decade: close to 1 million people waiting more than four hours, and on his watch, the first summer A and E crisis in living memory. But with this Government it is always someone else’s fault: GPs, nurses, patients, the weather, immigration, bank holidays—nothing to do with him, Mr Speaker, he is just a member of the public, as he is fond of saying. Well, I have got news for him: he is the Secretary of State, and it is time he started acting like it. All year we have warned him about the growing A and E crisis. First, he ignored those warnings, leaving A and E ill-prepared on the brink of a dangerous winter, as the NHS Confederation has warned. Now, in panic, he briefs out half-baked plans, without coming to this House. This is too little, too late.”
“That was a monumental mistake, combining the biggest ever financial challenge with the biggest ever reorganisation. Eyes were taken off the ball at the worst possible moment.”
“The hon. Gentleman is doing what the Conservatives have been doing for quite a few weeks now, which is rewriting history. Does he recall the general chaos in A and E before 1997? Does he remember people waiting for hours on trolleys before they were seen or people spending a day in A and E departments? When we left government, 98% of trusts across the country were meeting the four-hour target. Sadly, we cannot say the same about the NHS on his Government’s watch. What I have just given to the House was a warning of all warnings not to proceed with a reckless reorganisation at a time when the NHS was facing the biggest financial challenge in its history. Senior civil servants gave those warnings; the Government ploughed on regardless.”
“He will not foster the right culture in risk management in the NHS if there is one rule for the Department and another for everybody else.”
“If the Secretary of State truly believes, as he said yesterday, that transparency is a disinfectant—he is nodding—and if he wants to show leadership from the front from today onwards, should he not now commit to publishing the risk register that accompanied the Government’s reorganisation of the NHS? [ Interruption. ] He claims again that this was all about the last Government, but let me explain the difference to him. This Government withheld the risk register in defiance of the Information Rights Tribunal and the Appeal Court. Is he proud of that? What message does he think that that sends to the boards of those NHS organisations that he is now asking to act with maximum transparency? I am afraid that it sends absolutely the wrong message.”
“Promises were made before the reorganisation to my hon. Friend and his colleagues in St Helens, Knowsley and Halton about the future of the hospital, because there was concern that certain commitments would not be honoured by the new organisations. And it came to pass: they were not honoured. My hon. Friend asked whether the Secretary of State had been to an A and E. We know that he did not turn up at one until April, yet he had already stood up and criticised hospitals for “coasting”. How on earth could he make such comments when he had not bothered to get his feet on the ground to see what was happening in the NHS? Unbelievable. The Government took a huge gamble when they proceeded with the reorganisation at a time of financial stress and in the teeth of opposition from the public and the professions.”
“Let me give the hon. Gentleman a direct answer. One of the things that shocked me most when I received the Francis report, which I commissioned under the previous Government, was the revelation that on receiving foundation trust status, the board of Mid Staffordshire NHS Foundation Trust had begun to hold its meetings in private, rather than in public. It had taken the freedoms, yet decided to become more secretive. That was fundamentally unacceptable, and I made that point loud and clear to the NHS when I received that report. I do not think that there is any difference between us on this. I believe in openness and transparency too. Ours was the Government who brought in the Freedom of Information Act and independent regulation for the NHS. On that matter, we can make common cause.”
“I want to make some progress, but I will give way again later. People have a right to know whether any of the recent pressure that we have seen in the NHS was predicted and made known to Ministers before they proceeded with their reorganisation, which has led to thousands of good, experienced, committed people leaving the NHS. It left in charge less experienced people, who had never seen an A and E winter crisis and who did not know what to do. It led to millions in large redundancy payments being handed to people who were then re-employed by a new NHS organisation. Overall, £3 billion was siphoned out of the NHS front line to pay for this upheaval. Managers got six-figure pay-offs, and 4,000 nurses got P45s. It is no wonder that morale among staff is at rock bottom.”
“[Interruption.] I hear the public health Minister saying it is dreadful that Members do not get proper answers. When my hon. Friend the Member for Easington (Grahame M. Morris) wrote to her about cancer services in his constituency, she also brushed it off to NHS England. Is this proper accountability? No.”
“This is debate is about the NHS in England, and if the hon. Gentleman has concerns about the NHS in Wales, why does he not have a word with his right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer and get a better deal for the Welsh Assembly so that a bit more money could be put back into the Welsh national health service? As I was saying, the Government have put staff morale at rock bottom, and where are the promised benefits of this reorganisation? Clinical commissioning groups are not, as we were promised, the powerhouse of the new NHS; they are embryonic at best and anonymous at worst. Members of all parties, I am sure, write letters to CCGs that get passed to NHS England, which then either does not provide a proper answer or passes them on again.”
“With the NHS already laid low by cuts and reorganisation, the Secretary of State has opened up a new front on staff: nurses repeatedly blamed for not caring enough; hospitals blamed for coasting, as I have said; GPs blamed for causing the A and E crisis. Everything is someone else’s fault. Then we get to this weekend. The Keogh report rightly exposed poor care standards, which should never be tolerated; we support action to tackle to them. The report, however, exposed something else, too—a Government who are now actively spinning against the NHS for which they are responsible, generating misleading or, in Sir Bruce’s words, “reckless” headlines about 14 already troubled hospitals. What chance do they have of improving when the man supposedly in charge is actively doing them down?”
“We have just heard it; this is what the NHS has been reduced to. The Minister has to make representations to NHS England about cancer services of all things. My goodness, if Ministers are not responsible for cancer services, what are they responsible for? Who is making the decisions and who is responsible for what? Even now, confusion reigns. What precisely is the role of the Secretary of State in this new world? He has cast himself in a new role as a detached commentator on the sidelines, magnifying all of the NHS’s failings and accepting none of the responsibility to fix them. I assume that that is all for NHS England, too.”
“I am grateful to my hon. Friend and I will come to that precise point, as one would think that that was a responsibility of a Secretary of State. Who knows, though, what their responsibilities are now. Presumably that is a matter for NHS England as well. We shall return to the point in a few moments.”
“No, I want to make some more progress. As I said a moment ago, what chance do these hospitals have when they get these misleading headlines running them down when they are trying and struggling to make progress, alarming staff, alarming patients, demoralising staff and casually trading figures— [Interruption.] No. I will not give way. [Interruption.]”
“Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. Alarming patients, demoralising staff and casually trading figures about deaths in the pursuit of political advantage is no way to run the NHS, and those are not the actions of a responsible Government. Today people are asking what kind of Government this is, if they are willing to cause further damage to fragile hospitals for their own self-serving political ends. Yesterday the Secretary of State told the BBC that he had no idea who had put the 13,000 figure in the public domain. Does he seriously expect us to believe that?”
“[Interruption.] I will not put the name in the public domain, but I have a name. I will send it to the Secretary of State immediately after the debate, and he must come straight back to me, having asked that person whether or not he briefed the press. If the Secretary of State agrees to that, let us leave it there. I have a name, and I will put it to him straight after the debate. He must take responsibility.”
“He seriously expects us to believe it? Why are we being told that those responsible were representatives of Conservative Central Office? [Interruption.] Yes, that is what is being said. The Secretary of State should go back and check his facts. If he does not have control of his advisers, it will not be the first time, will it? We have heard this before, have we not? “I do not know what the advisers are doing.” The “my adviser is out of control” defence may have worked for the Secretary of State once, but it will not work for him twice. He must take responsibility for his own advisers, and for the advisers at Conservative headquarters. We were told explicitly that that is where the briefings came from, and the Secretary of State owes the House a full answer. He owes it to the House to put that on the record.”
“The fact is, however, that the NHS and its hospitals have improved over the past decade, and that needs to be repeated and repeated to counter the scare stories that are emanating from the Conservatives and the fears that they are stoking among people about going into hospital.”
“My hon. Friend has made an extremely important point. The conclusion to which he has referred may well have been missed by many people up and down the country yesterday, but it is worth repeating and putting centre stage in today’s debate, because the Government certainly will not make any reference to it. NHS hospitals in England, including the 14 covered by the review, have reduced mortality by 30% in recent years. That is an incredible achievement, which we should surely be celebrating. Of course the NHS is not perfect. It does fail people, and when it does, we are truly sorry for the effect on their families.”
“I would not close my mind to that suggestion, but I think it important also to take account of what Keogh said about other similarities between those hospitals—and, probably, between them and Mid Staffordshire. What they have in common is geographic isolation. Hospitals serving smaller market towns are not supported by the same clinical networks as others, and may find it more difficult to attract qualified staff. I agree with the hon. Gentleman that there are a number of important issues that need to be considered.”
“Government Members can throw whatever they like at me, because that is politics, but I will not allow the NHS and its staff to become collateral damage in this orchestrated political campaign.”
“It used to be, “We love the NHS”—the Prime Minister said, “I love the NHS”—but now it is about running down the NHS. I say to the Secretary of State, in all sincerity, that he will not improve patient care by continually blaming doctors and nurses. As I have said before, the NHS is fragile right now because of his reorganisation, and it cannot keep taking these knocks on a daily basis. The blame game is destructive and polarising, and it has to end. He is in real danger of losing any remaining good will in the NHS work force, and none of us and, more importantly, none of our constituents can afford to see those crucial staff become fed up, lose heart and walk away.”
“This is all part of the spin in which Government Members have been engaging in recent days. [Interruption.] Okay, so let me answer and then the same test will apply to the Secretary of State as the hon. Lady is applying to me. She is referring to letters sent by members of the public to the Department of Health. I am sure that this has not changed with the change of Government; contrary to what she has just said, those letters do not come across Ministers’ desks. They are not formal warnings to Ministers, and it is very important to be precise with language here. This Secretary of State will have received many, many hundreds of letters about hospitals up and down the country that he will not have seen, and it is not right for the hon. Lady to come along, again, with slurs and half truths to try to muddy the waters.”