Barry Gardiner
MP for Brent West · Labour · United Kingdom
“Sir Desmond, imagine that the top brains in the country’s security and intelligence community produced a report that told you how to save the world. You would want to see it, right? Well, the report we are discussing is not about how to save the world; it is about what happens if we do not.”
“The nuclear threat will rise as clashes between nuclear powers become more frequent. Those are the cold assessments of the Joint Intelligence Committee. The Government were right to think that those assessments might scare people—they scare me—but they were wrong to think that they could hide them from the public.”
“The Minister will know that the grant structure on which UKRI is based gives out grants for a maximum of three to five years. Very few are for five years—most are for three years or under—yet the sort of long-term scientific development that my hon.”
“My hon. Friend is making a superb case for the importance of funding for her deep earth facility. I had the privilege of going to the National Oceanography Centre’s deep oceans facility, and the innovative science there on carbon sequestration is superb.”
“The Prime Minister has spoken powerfully about the devolution of power and giving back control. Will he therefore ensure that the proposals for commonhold and leasehold reform, for which 5 million leaseholders in this country are waiting with bated breath, do give that power and control back to those people, through the right to enfranchi…”
“We know how much land there is in the UK, and we know the extent of our inland waters and seas, so we can know how much we have to do to protect them, as we are required to do by target 3 of the global biodiversity framework.”
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“The study sets out the progress that each country is making on enacting its own legislation and regulation, and that builds trust into the whole system. Often countries ask, “Why should we act to the detriment of our own industry by enacting climate legislation? It will put us at a disadvantage to everyone else.” But actually, countries are not acting alone. Countries throughout the world are taking positive steps to enact legislation on climate because they perceive the problem. Such a study is perhaps the best way to show the sceptics that their country is not alone, to build trust and enable the negotiations to proceed in the way alluded to by Christiana Figueres.”
“For many years, Governments across the world appeared to think that all we needed to do to solve the problem of climate was to get together and reach a legally binding agreement. Well, that was always a chimera; it was never going to be the case because, no matter what Governments agree to, it must be brought back and legislated on in their Parliaments. That legislation must then be implemented. Funds have to be voted to ensure that the legislation is implemented properly and fully, and the implementation must be monitored, audited and carried out. That is why I refer to the study launched by Christiana Figueres in the Locarno suite—the GLOBE International climate legislation study—which focuses on climate legislation enacted in 33 countries.”
“When countries see other nations commit funds and then deliver them in the way that has been promised, it builds trust into the whole process. When Christiana Figueres, the executive secretary of the UNFCCC, came to London in January and spoke in the Locarno suite of the Foreign and Commonwealth Office, she made it clear that the only way in which we would achieve success on the Durban platform and see a resolution and a conclusion to the negotiations in 2015 was to build trust at national level. She made it clear that any agreement in 2015 would as much reflect what was going on at the national level—the legislation that was being passed and the regulations and policies that were being enacted by Governments—as it would define climate legislation into the future.”
“The negotiations absolutely have to consider where the balance of costs and benefit lies and take that into account. Without doing that, we will not get anywhere; I agree. The funding of the climate negotiations process is critical. I congratulate the Government on the way in which our country has stepped up to the plate with the short-term funding committed in 2009 through to 2012. They have delivered that, if not 100%—it may be 100%—then pretty damn close to 99%. They have not just committed and delivered the funding, but ensured that 50% of it went to adaptation. Many countries that promised such start-up funding committed themselves to the principle of at least 50% going to adaptation but then did not deliver. It is absolutely vital that such commitments are honoured, because they are the ones that build trust into the negotiation.”
“I wholeheartedly agree with the point that the Minister is making. Is he aware of research now being conducted that seems to suggest that countries that have legislated on climate are attracting most of the international investment in this area?”
“Perhaps a common point of agreement between the Minister, the right hon. Member for Hitchin and Harpenden (Mr Lilley) and myself is that any subsidy should be in place only because of a market failure. It is almost impossible to justify a subsidy on that basis to fossil fuels, which have had more than enough time to establish themselves, whereas there is a failure in the renewables market. We need to get renewables to the point where they become a full-scale technology and are able to operate at only marginal cost. I presume that the Minister, the right hon. Gentleman and I would all agree that, at that point, subsidies should be withdrawn from them also.”
“As we speak, the unlikely team of Lord Prescott and Lord Deben is in China with a delegation of legislators from France and other parts of Europe to negotiate with the Chinese on an initiative about how the UK and China can work together to reduce carbon emissions through product standards. My time is at an end, so I will sit down, although I could say much more on this subject. I believe that engagement with China is critical for the Government and the future of the negotiations.”
“He met senior political figures from all three major UK parties—including Cabinet Office Ministers, the then Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change and the Leader of the Opposition—as well as senior Members of the European Parliament, and it was agreed that a regular second track to negotiations should be established. In Venice in September 2012, that second track took off when the Chinese delegation—led by Su Wei, the director general of the Department of Climate Change in the National Development and Reform Commission—agreed the approach now being carried forward by China and GLOBE in Europe.”
“The relationship is also with Minister Xie Zhenhua, who has, despite the recent changes in China, been reconfirmed, I am pleased to say, in his position as Minister for the next period—there was a question mark over what position he would end up with. The engagement that international legislators have been able to have with the Minister, and with Su Wei, who is one of the central figures under the Minister as the key negotiator and formulator of China’s policy in this area, has been extraordinary. In October 2011, Minister Xie came to London as part of a delegation hosted by GLOBE.”
“China’s approach, although much of it based on domestic political reasons, because of the problems with pollution in its own cities, is driving China to take really positive steps to increase not the decarbonisation but the carbon productivity of its economy, at the same time as making great advances on renewables. The International Energy Agency’s “World Energy Outlook 2012” estimates that by 2035 China will have increased its windpower capacity to 330 GW. That is 40% greater than the global wind capacity in 2011, which gives some sense of the scale at which China is moving. I have mentioned Chairman Wang Guangtao. He became the first president of GLOBE China when it was formed, but the relationship with China goes much deeper than that.”
“For almost a decade, that is the sort of fact that has been used to vilify China, painting it as the villain of the piece, and politicians have sometimes used it as an excuse for inaction. Indeed, the fact that China produces so many emissions is one of the most trenchant arguments used, as we heard earlier, in the US Senate for taking no action on climate change. The Chinese economy will, of course, remain one of the most powerful engines of climate change for the next two decades, but at the same time the scale of its own ambition for decarbonisation will, I think, be a turning point in global efforts to halt the pace of climate change.”
“At the GLOBE summit of legislators that took place a month before COP 15 in Copenhagen, Chairman Wang Guangtao and Congressman Ed Markey put their heads together. That was an extraordinary engagement, in that legislators from the two countries that have been seen, in some respects, as the key blockers to an international agreement came together and agreed a set of legislative principles upon which climate negotiations could advance. It is really in my capacity as chairman of the board of GLOBE International that I want to cast my perspective on the Select Committee report, and I should declare my entry in that regard in the Register of Members’ Financial Interests, even though it is a non-pecuniary interest. The International Energy Agency estimates that China will account for half the growth in energy-related emissions to 2030.”
“I am delighted to speak on this important matter under your chairmanship, Mr Betts, and I heartily endorse all that the Chair of the Select Committee, the hon. Member for South Suffolk (Mr Yeo), has said, particularly about the very positive engagement between our Foreign and Commonwealth Office and China. I address my remarks to the Minister in particular, as this is an area in which the Government need to do more. The Government now have a strong link and positive engagement with India, and they need to step up to the mark in the same way in China, reinforcing their commitment there. That would prove tremendously positive, not just for climate change and climate change negotiations, but for our own productive economy, including our exports.”
“Am I right in thinking that the right hon. Gentleman genuinely believes that the expertise that this country has built up both from the North sea oilfields and in drilling in that technology is not something that we can export to China in helping them to develop shale gas?”
“570.] It is clear that what we are facing in 2020 is a cliff edge—a milestone—and the Government, without necessarily committing considerable excess funding at this stage, somehow have to be able to give a signal to industry and investors that this is the direction of travel the Government are taking and that they can confidently lay down their investments in the knowledge that they will get a clear return.”
“Friend the Member for Rutherglen and Hamilton West (Tom Greatrex), quoted Mr Buglass in a sitting of the Energy Bill Committee, saying that “a 2030 target ‘is absolutely critical from the conversations I have with potential supply-chain investors because they quite rightly point out that it is very difficult for them to take investment to their board if they really only have visibility on three or four years-worth of work . ’ ” –– [ Official Report, Energy Public Bill Committee, 7 February 2013; c.”
“In the words of DONG energy, “it is a case of having a cliff edge at the moment; 2020 is a big milestone” –– [ Official Report, Energy Public Bill Committee, 15 January 2013; c. 58, Q175.] Andrew Buglass from the Royal Bank of Scotland told the Energy Bill Committee that the cliff edge is making it very difficult for supply chain investors to invest in the UK. Overcoming the insecurity created by the 2020 cliff edge does not require more public money, or even the promise of more money; it requires coherence, in the form of a 2030 target that proves to industry that the demand for low-carbon energy will continue to rise beyond 2020. The shadow Minister, my hon.”
“I pay tribute to the Government—and to the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change for his interlocutions and iterations with the Treasury—for their commitment of £7.6 billion under the levy control framework up to 2020. That is a significant achievement, which will be important for low-carbon generation in this country. It is £7.6 billion from people’s energy bills to pay for new low-carbon energy generation that will increase energy security, reduce the cost of energy bills in the long term and ensure that we meet our moral and legal obligations to reduce our greenhouse gas emissions. So far, so good; I am with the Minister and with the Government. Industry has welcomed the commitment, but has also clearly said that it is not enough. The £7.6 billion is security for only seven years.”
“It is a great pleasure to follow the hon. Member for St Ives (Andrew George). I congratulate him on securing the debate, and even more on being absolutely true to his principles and honouring the pledge that he and a number of his colleagues made more than a year ago. It is absolutely right that he has raised the matter in this forum, where we can take some time to develop the arguments, because, as he suggests, during consideration on Report of the Energy Bill in the main Chamber it will perhaps be more difficult to go into the same detail and depth. I am, therefore, very grateful to him for introducing the debate in this way.”
“If the hon. Gentleman reads the record of the written evidence that was given to the Energy Bill Committee, he will see that no less a figure than David Kennedy, chief executive of the Committee on Climate Change, which independently advises the Government, said that the context in Germany is different. A low-carbon trajectory has already been established there, precisely for the reasons the hon. Gentleman suggests—four times as many renewables are already in place. People in Germany are not in doubt about what their Government are going to do or about the direction of travel.”
“I am happy to allow the hon. Gentleman to get what he wishes on the record. He is at perfect liberty to make his own remarks later, and I trust he will do so, but I point out that Germany, by going away from nuclear generation, will see a significant rise in emissions—not only there, but in neighbouring countries. Germany has been a net exporter of low-carbon electricity to its neighbours, and that also is going and will create substantial problems for Europe as a whole in meeting its emissions reduction targets. It will also present severe problems for Europe’s response to the challenge of global warming. Ultimately, I think Germany will move through that transition, away from coal.”
“Let us remember that the Government’s proposals are not that we should set a target in 2016, but that we may not set one until at least that date. Those are two very different propositions.”
“The hon. Gentleman makes a very interesting and worthwhile point, which I perfectly understand. I am sure that if I go into consumption emissions versus production emissions, you will call me to order from the Chair, Mr Gray, but we must not pat ourselves on the back for seeing our own production emissions drop if we are still driving the very consumption model that generates the emissions elsewhere around the globe. The Committee on Climate Change estimates that in the absence of a 2030 target, offshore wind might cost as much as £140 per megawatt-hour. With such a target, the cost, under the committee’s scenario, drops to £100. The difference between the two costs is about the presence of a competitive supply chain in the UK. We do not have one, but what we do have is at risk.”
“Recent peer-reviewed studies from the London School of Economics and Berkeley have concluded that the fiscal multiplier for productive infrastructure investment in current economic conditions is likely to be about 2.5 in the UK. The amendment would ensure that the £7.6 billion produced secure investable propositions, creating significant numbers of construction jobs and long-term high-value jobs in communities around the UK, where both are scarce.”
“This is not in keeping with the Government’s aspirations for the UK to be the global leader in low carbon technologies such as offshore wind and marine.” The amendment would require a 2030 decarbonisation target for the energy sector to be set by the Secretary of State, on the advice of the Committee on Climate Change, by next spring, which would ensure that the Energy Bill sent a coherent signal to investors. By securing investment in a competitive UK supply chain, the amendment would not only reduce the cost of decarbonising our energy infrastructure, but ensure that the investments that we are committed to make produced a significant growth multiplier and contributed to the essential rebalancing of the British economy.”
“Member for South Suffolk (Mr Yeo) and me, which to date is supported by 41 Members from—I am pleased to say—all parties in the House. They wrote: “Projects can take 4-6 years from investment decision to construction and operation. We are already close to the point where lack of a post-2020 market driver will seriously undermine project pipelines. Supply chain investment decisions depend on reasonable assurance for manufacturers that a production facility to be constructed during this decade, costing hundreds of millions of pounds, will have an adequate market for its products well into the 2020s. Postponing the 2030 target decision until 2016 creates entirely avoidable political risk. This will slow growth in the low carbon sector, handicap the UK supply chain, reduce UK R&D and produce fewer new jobs.”
“Let me return to the key point that I wish to address, because I know that other Members want to enter the debate. Although it is good to have a debate and a real exchange of views through interventions, I fear that I must press on if other Members are to be able to speak. Siemens told us that if we wait till 2016 to set a decarbonisation target for 2030, it and many of its competitors are likely to delay or cancel planned investments in the UK. In March, six of the largest supply chain investors wrote to the Chancellor, the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills and the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change to register their strong support for the decarbonisation amendment tabled by the hon.”
“My hon. Friend is, as ever, thoroughly astute on these matters. He was a tremendous champion of the decarbonisation target when the Bill was in Committee, and he speaks with great knowledge on the subject. He is absolutely right. Only last night at a dinner, I heard the Secretary of State talking as if this was a great leap forward, that this would be the only Government who had legislated for a decarbonisation target. At that point I almost spluttered into my chicken, because we have not legislated for a decarbonisation target. [ Interruption. ] And it was beef anyway, says my hon. Friend the Member for Southampton, Test (Dr Whitehead). What we have done is make provision so that, at the appropriate moment, it would not be impossible to legislate.”
“There will be significant jobs, and if we invest in and develop CCS, it will become a major part of our exports in skills and technology around the world, from which we can benefit. It is part of our wider economy, and the same is true of the renewables industry the more we invest in it and adopt the position, as the hon. Gentleman said, of being the global leader. I am afraid that we have already lost that position, because other countries have invested far more, including what we are prepared to do in CCS. Unless we invest, we will not develop the export capacity that we need to drive our economy as a whole. We cannot simply be what Gary Smith of the GMB often refers to as the Meccano men of Europe, who simply fit together a product made elsewhere. We must have supply chains in the UK, create the jobs and invest in companies here.”
“Part of the problem is that, in considering electricity market reform, the Government have been like a phlebotomist looking at the body politic. They have been obsessed with the energy flow around the system, as a phlebotomist is obsessed with the blood flow around the body, but they have failed to consider the health of the whole organism. That makes for a very poor doctor; we would not want a GP who was simply a phlebotomist. The Government’s approach has not taken enough cognisance of how the energy sector fits in with powering our economy as a whole. A good example is the ramping down of funds available for carbon capture and storage. Coal and CCS will be vital for us.”
“I am not a gambling man, but I understand the position of seeking to look at climate change policy as a balance of risks, and the hon. Lady is absolutely right to make that point. In truth, whatever the UK does will not make a global difference to whether we reach 2°, as I am sure she would acknowledge. The aspiration required of the UK and the global leadership that it possesses, which the hon. Member for St Ives mentioned, mean that we have to drive this if we are to play our part in achieving the global reduction. I understand the percentage figures she gave, but it is perhaps illegitimate to conclude that if we hit the 2030 target we will have only a 36% chance of achieving the 2° target. The UK cannot achieve that on its own; it demands a similar effort across the globe.”
“I trust that the Minister will reconsider the proposals on the decarbonisation target in the Department and that we may yet see some progress.”
“Businesses are calling for demand security beyond 2020, which the Energy Bill could provide at no cost. The Committee on Climate Change is the body trusted by the industry to set the right target. The Minister will know only too well the letter written by the newly appointed chair of the CCC to the Secretary of State on 25 February. He described how the Government’s plans entail a “high degree of uncertainty about sector development beyond 2020. This will adversely impact on supply chain investment decisions and project development, undermining implementation of the Bill and raising costs for consumers.” He went further, however, and referred to “the need to resolve uncertainties about the direction of travel for power system development”, specifically the “dash for gas” and the danger that it presents to low-carbon generation.”
“I do not dispute what the Minister says about the two projects that are on line, but I do not think that he will dispute what I have said about the reduction in funds available for CCS. If we build a competitive supply chain fast enough, we can expect significant investment in the UK almost immediately, which will mean that British companies are well placed to export to a renewable energy market that the International Energy Agency predicts will be worth at least $6.4 trillion by 2035. If we do not lay the foundations for a competitive supply chain, we will see the cost of decarbonisation rise, along with our trade deficit, as we hand over the growth benefits from public investment to countries that have already taken steps to remove the policy risk from low-carbon infrastructure investment.”
“Last year, the EEF manufacturers’ body sounded a warning about the risk—”
“This will slow growth in the low carbon sector, handicap the UK supply chain, reduce UK R and D and produce fewer new jobs.” The hon. Member for Chichester (Mr Tyrie), who chairs the Treasury Committee, began the debate from the Back Benches with the extraordinary claim that low-carbon policies are exporting jobs and that green measures are adding 20% to our fuel bills. He should know that energy efficiency measures cost 15%, not 20%, of our energy bills and that the low-carbon sector has provided one third of all economic growth in the UK and is our fastest growing sector, creating thousands of new jobs. The Chancellor and his friends need to begin to recognise that green growth is the surest way through our economic problems, not the contributor to them. Fundamental to that is an understanding of sustainability.”
“Mitsubishi, Alstom, Doosan, Gamesa, Vestas and Areva have interests that span gas, clean coal, carbon capture and storage, nuclear and renewables. They told the Chancellor of their strong support for the early introduction of the 2030 decarbonisation target and warned: “We are already close to the point where lack of a post-2020 market driver will seriously undermine project pipelines.” They explained that supply chain investment decisions depend on reasonable assurances from manufacturers that a production facility built this decade at a cost of millions will have an adequate market for its products well into the 2020s. They told him: “Postponing the 2030 target decision until 2016 creates entirely avoidable political risk.”
“In a world of 7 billion people, growth can be sustainable only if it is predicated on advances that bring increased productivity and greater efficiency in the use of resource. For the world to continue to achieve a 3% per annum growth target and to maintain a trajectory that keeps carbon emissions below the 2° threshold, we must increase our productivity per tonne of carbon emitted 15 times over, yet this is the Chancellor who has fought tooth and nail to stop us having a decarbonisation target in the Energy Bill. The Chancellor is oblivious to the argument, regardless of who makes it—friend or foe, politician or industry. Two weeks ago, six of the largest multinational investors in the UK infrastructure wrote to him.”
“By the time a child born on this Budget day is eligible to vote, the world will require 45% more energy, 30% more fresh water and 50% more food. This child will be part of the generation that will see the global population move from 7 billion to 10 billion. How do we enable this child to flourish? Do we become the most selfish generation of the most selfish species in our planet’s history, or do we become the generation that understood that justice and sustainability are essentially the same thing? If we want peace in the world, we must create justice. If we want justice, we must live sustainably. This Chancellor’s old mantra was cut, tax and grow, so what if he has changed it for Heseltine’s grow, tax and spend? If he has not learned that growth must be sustainable, it will all end up in the same mess.”
“The real trouble with the Budget is not that it will fail to achieve its growth objective over the five-year cycle of the political process; it is that the five-year cycle itself bears scant relation to the cycles of the resources that we must manage if we are to create sustainable well-being for our citizens. The Chancellor has engaged in a civil war in this Government against any understanding of true stewardship of our natural resources. Oh yes, he can spot a domestic credit bubble in our housing market, but he is incapable of seeing the far greater danger of an annual global consumption of natural resources that it takes our planet one year and four months to replace. That is a credit bubble of terminal proportions not just for our economy, but for our species.”
“In 2010, he told us solemnly that austerity was the only way to avoid losing our triple A rating; we now know that it has helped us to lose it. Believe no one else about this Chancellor. Judge him by his own words. Judge him by his own U-turns. Growth is lower, real wages are lower, public sector net borrowing is £212 billion more than he forecast and debt as a percentage of GDP is up to 76.8%, when he forecast that it would be 69.7%. The Government’s target of debt reduction by the end of this Parliament is now absolutely unachievable.”
“On that measure, today’s Budget has failed. Today’s Budget is the Budget of a Chancellor who has painted himself into a corner and then run out of paint. He has been wedded to austerity so obstinately and for so long that when he finally is seduced by the noble Lord Heseltine to share an illicit tryst with growth, he lacks the wherewithal to invest properly. This Chancellor has been wedded not to prudence, but to patience. Year on year, we have been told that the prospect of economic growth and recovery has receded once more over the horizon, always remaining just four years away. In 2010, he forecast that by today, the economy would have grown by 5.3%; it has grown by just 0.7%. In 2010, he forecast that his austerity plan would stop us going into a double-dip recession; we have been teetering on the brink of a triple dip.”
“That is because other concepts such as security, equality and justice really do matter. For human beings to live well—to flourish—we require all of those. Our economy must therefore be structured to provide not just so-called flexibility of the labour force, but security of employment. It must minimise the inequality between the bankers’ million-pound bonuses and the savers at risk of losing part of their life savings to bail out Mediterranean countries. It must explain the justice of someone earning £150,000 still getting £1,200 per child in child care, when a mother in my constituency who cannot find more than 15 hours of work a week gets none. A good Budget is not just about the distribution of national wealth; it is about the management of society’s resources to enable its citizens to flourish as one nation.”
“Socrates called it eudaemonia—living well. He thought of it as the ultimate arete or virtue. In some respects, that is what Budget day is all about: how we can allocate the nation’s resources so that more people can live well. However, when Socrates spoke of eudaemonia, he would never have confused it with prosperity. He thought of it as a state of human flourishing. The Chancellor clearly thinks of it as mere human affluence. Well-being may be a function of economic activity, but if so, it is not a direct or simple one. One need only reflect that a specific loss of income is much more damaging to well-being than the corresponding gain is beneficial to it. The bedroom tax that reduces my constituents’ incomes has a far greater impact on their well-being negatively than a corresponding tax credit would have positively.”
“Does the Minister understand that it is the trajectory that worries Members? First, we lift the arms embargo, then we supply arms, then we supply military advisers, then personnel and then those very arms are used against the personnel. The best way to put a fire out is not to put more fuel on it.”
“Secondly, does he accept that Jean-Paul Chanteguet, Chairman of the Select Committee in the French Parliament, has said that Flamanville, on which Hinkley is based, will be producing at €72 per MW, and that that must, in anybody’s account, form the baseline for assessment of the negotiations in which the Secretary of State is engaged?”
“I welcome the Secretary of State’s announcement. I visited Hinkley in November as part of the Select Committee visit and was most impressed by the arguments for community benefit, of which he has spoken. However, he rightly said that this is not the end. I do not wish to press him on the strike price—I understand that those matters are commercial—but will he at least acknowledge two principles? First, the strike price will be based on the construction costs. Therefore, will he incorporate a clawback into the formula, should those costs be overestimated?”
“I was astonished but delighted to hear the caveat that the Minister inserted in his initial response to the question—that brownfield developments should be environmentally suitable. Does he acknowledge that many brownfield sites have specific value for what is often unique biodiversity on previous industrial and chemical sites?”
“The ECB action was supposed to create stability, but it has created instability. The Minister has made it clear that the Chancellor was not consulted on that beforehand, but has the Chancellor made it clear to the ECB that, although this particular deal may be renegotiated, the instability will linger in precisely the way the hon. Member for North East Somerset (Jacob Rees-Mogg) suggests?”
“We have heard how exemplary damages are supposed to drive people into this voluntary arrangement, but will the hon. and learned Gentleman confirm that no judge would penalise somebody for not being part of the voluntary arrangement and would be no more likely to impose exemplary damages on somebody outside it than in the normal run of events? In that sense, the whip of exemplary damages would not be there, although I recognise that the incentive for those inside it would be.”