David Mundell
MP for Dumfriesshire, Clydesdale and Tweeddale · Conservative · United Kingdom
“It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Dr Allin-Khan. I pay tribute to the hon. Member for Gillingham and Rainham (Naushabah Khan), not just for her thoughtful contribution but for securing this debate. It is so important that we take every opportunity we can to shine a light on this conflict.”
“Member for Oxford East (Anneliese Dodds). I am sure that the new Minister, whom I welcome to her post, will do likewise. Nevertheless, as I said, Sudan remains chronically under-reported.”
“I absolutely agree. I—and the Minister, I am sure—would like the Quad that was established to be more effective in relation to the involvement of the United States and neighbouring countries, with those neighbouring countries playing a positive role rather than supporting the protagonists in the conflict. As the right hon.”
“As UN Security Council penholder, the UK has a distinct moral and diplomatic duty to lead these negotiations at the upcoming UN General Assembly and press relentlessly for a humanitarian truce, a permanent ceasefire, robust civilian protection, civic engagement and unhindered aid access.”
“I recognise that the Minister and her colleagues in the Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office must navigate delicate regional dynamics, but the Government must not shy away from forcefully challenging the covert actions of some of our Gulf allies in Sudan, both publicly and in private diplomacy.”
“We saw the horrific realities of the crisis just two weeks ago with the totally unacceptable attack on a World Food Programme convoy in Kordofan. Civilian personnel were injured and lifesaving aid was destroyed.”
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“As the hon. Gentleman will know, the Trade Union Bill is still under discussion in this House, and it is the Bill as finalised by this House and the other place that will determine the nature of any legislative consent motion that is required, as is the normal practice. The amendments I have tabled today fulfil my commitment to reflect on the debate in Committee. It is a bit rich to be criticised both for taking no amendments and, in the same breath, for tabling too many. We took the Committee process seriously and the contribution from the devolved powers committee in the Scottish Parliament very seriously, and that has determined our thinking in lodging these amendments.”
“Since the hon. Gentleman has put that on the record so many times, I want to point out that the Conservative party polled more votes in the 2015 general election than in 2010 election. He has sought to distort those figures. Perhaps he would like to join me in congratulating the new Conservative councillor in Aberdeenshire, who topped the poll in the very constituency of the right hon. Member for Gordon (Alex Salmond).”
“We do not need a commission either, because the analysis has been done. The Institute for Fiscal Studies has estimated that full fiscal autonomy would mean Scotland having almost £10 billion less to spend by the last year of this Parliament. That is not a good deal for Scotland and this Government will not support it.”
“I think that during at least part of this debate some of the amendments tabled by both the Government and Opposition Members have been addressed and I am very pleased—unless I have picked this up wrongly in the course of the debate—that no one is suggesting they would wish to oppose the Government’s amendments. I am afraid that today’s debate on full fiscal autonomy has, for me, been an unwelcome case of déjà vu, and I am afraid that even includes the contribution of my hon. Friend the Member for Gainsborough (Sir Edward Leigh). It would certainly be unwelcome to the people of Scotland if this proposal ever came to pass. It will come as no surprise to the House that the Government will not accept the SNP amendment relating to full fiscal autonomy. This Government are clear: it is not in the interests of the people of Scotland.”
“There is not a shred of evidence to suggest that the people of Scotland want full fiscal autonomy. The people of Scotland voted in a referendum—I know that is an inconvenience for the SNP on the road to independence—and voted decisively to remain within the United Kingdom.”
“Similarly, we are fully committed to consulting the charity sector, in Scotland and the rest of the UK, ahead of agreeing arrangements for the continued operation of gift aid under the devolution of income tax powers as proposed by the Bill. The Government are fully committed to an ongoing dialogue with the charity sector before and after the enactment of the Bill to ensure that gift aid continues to operate effectively. It is our objective to maximise the amount of gift aid claimed on eligible donations. I hope that, on the basis of those reassurances, the hon. Gentleman will not press his new clause to a vote.”
“I need to deal with the specific issues that have been raised, including gift aid. I commend the hon. Member for Edinburgh South (Ian Murray) for pursuing this issue, because it is important to the charitable sector. It came up when I addressed the Scottish Council for Voluntary Organisations recently. I can confirm that the UK Government remain committed to working with the charity sector to ensure that gift aid works effectively for charities and their donors. This is something that we already do, and something that we will continue to do. We consulted the charity sector fully in advance of agreeing the arrangements for the continued operation of gift aid under the Scottish rate of income tax, which will come into effect in April 2016.”
“I thank the hon. Gentleman for that. I also thank the hon. Member for Edinburgh East (Tommy Sheppard). I usually disagree fundamentally with his contributions, but I always enjoy them. I also commend him on winning the new MP of the year award from The Spectator . He and the hon. Member for Paisley and Renfrewshire North (Gavin Newlands) touched on the Sewel convention—the legislative consent motion procedure in the Scottish Parliament. I am afraid that I do not agree with their proposals. The Sewel convention has been set out in the Bill, as required by the Smith commission.”
“However, there is no suggestion that agreement cannot be reached, and it will be an agreement that is fair for Scotland and fair for the rest of the United Kingdom. I look forward to Members of this House and of the Scottish Parliament being able to properly scrutinise that agreement.”
“The Government are working on proposals for the reform of the human rights framework, and we will bring forward those proposals in due course, in consultation with the devolved Administrations. The fiscal framework has also been discussed today. I want to put on record the fact that I am absolutely confident that John Swinney, negotiating on behalf of the Scottish Government, will be able to get a good deal for them. I have that confidence in Mr Swinney, and I know that he and the UK Government are absolutely committed to achieving that objective. We have had a number of detailed discussions on the fiscal framework, and we agreed at the start that we would not provide a running commentary on those negotiations. Nothing is agreed until everything is agreed.”
“I hope that the relevant amendment will therefore not be pressed to a vote. The question of human rights was raised by the hon. and learned Member for Edinburgh South West (Joanna Cherry). I have found her previous contributions to this Parliament to be based on fact and not on politics, so it will not surprise her to learn that I was disappointed with her contribution this evening. This is an important issue. The House will be aware that we have outlined our proposal to reform and modernise our human rights framework by replacing the Human Rights Act with a Bill of Rights. Of course I am very aware of the possible devolution implications of reform, and we will engage with the devolved Administrations as we develop these proposals. We spoke about this matter in Committee, and the Government’s view has not changed.”
“Member for Caerphilly (Wayne David), this is an important proposal which demonstrates what the people of Scotland have clearly indicated they wish to see in the legislation. I am also pleased that the proposals relating to elections have been relatively uncontentious, as were the measures relating to a super-majority. I therefore hope that the amendments to those measures will not be pressed to a vote. I am afraid that I cannot agree with Labour’s proposal for the full amount of VAT raised in Scotland to be assigned to Scotland. It was a key part of the Smith agreement that half the VAT revenue should be so assigned, in order to ensure a stable balance between encouraging Scotland’s economy to grow and insulating the Scottish Government’s budget from UK-wide economic shocks.”
“I want to respond to all the points raised on the new clauses and amendments if I can. The hon. Member for Nottingham North (Mr Allen) has put forward various suggestions on local government. On the one hand, I agree with the SNP that it is a matter for the Scottish Parliament to determine the nature of local government in Scotland. On the other hand, I agree with the hon. Gentleman that as many matters as possible in Scotland should be devolved locally. Indeed, that was one of Lord Smith’s proposals for the Bill. On the question of permanence, I am glad that the current proposal, which I had previously shared with the Scottish Government and the Devolved Powers Committee, meets everyone’s aspirations. In response to the hon.”
“Throughout the course of these debates it has been clear that the strongest advocate of full fiscal devolution in this House is my hon. Friend the Member for Gainsborough (Sir Edward Leigh). He is willing to put his money where his mouth is. I am not willing to put the livelihoods of people in Scotland on the line just to demonstrate that some scheme would not work.”
“(9) Regulations under this section must be made by statutory instrument, subject to annulment in pursuance of a resolution of either House of Parliament.”— (Ian Murray.) The new Clause provides for the establishment of an independent commission to investigate the impact of FFA. Brought up, and read the First time. Question put, That the clause be read a Second time:—”
“(6) Before appointing any member of the commission, the Secretary of State must consult— (a) The Chair of any select committee appointed by the House of Commons to consider Scottish Affairs, and (b) The Chair of any select committee appointed by the House of Commons to examine the expenditure, administration and policy of Her Majesty’s Treasury and its associated public bodies. (7) The Secretary of State may by regulations issue the commission with terms of reference and guidelines for the commission’s working methods, including an outline definition of the policy of full fiscal autonomy for the commission to analyse. (8) The Secretary of State must lay copies of the report of the commission before both Houses of Parliament, and must transmit a copy of the report of the commission to the Presiding Officer of the Scottish Parliament.”
“(2) No member of the House of Commons, the House of Lords, or the Scottish Parliament may be a member of the commission. (3) No employee of the Scottish Government or of any government Department or agency anywhere in the United Kingdom may be a member of the commission. (4) The Secretary of State shall, in consultation and with the agreement of Scottish Ministers, appoint as members of the commission only persons who appear to the Secretary of State to hold a relevant qualification or to have relevant experience. (5) The Secretary of State shall not appoint as a member of the commission any person who is a member of a political party.”
“(2) In this section— (a) expressions used in the 1998 Act have the same meaning as in that Act; (b) the relevant date is the date on which section 3 comes into force.”— (Stephen Barclay.) This amendment makes provision for various existing functions of Ministers of the Crown in respect of elections to instead be exercised by Scottish Ministers, so far as such functions are exercisable within devolved competence by virtue of Clause 3. Brought up, read the First and Second time, and added to the Bill. New Clause 1 Independent Commission on Full Fiscal Autonomy “(1) The Secretary of State shall appoint a commission of between four and eleven members to conduct an analysis of the impact of Full Fiscal Autonomy on the Scottish economy, labour market and public finances and to report by 31 March 2016.”
“New Clause 13 Functions exercisable within devolved competence: elections “(1) The Scotland Act 1998 (“the 1998 Act”) has effect, in relation to any function so far as exercisable within devolved competence by virtue of a provision of section 3, as if references to a “pre-commencement enactment” were to— (a) an Act passed before or in the same session as the relevant date, (b) any other enactment made before the relevant date, (c) subordinate legislation under section 106 of the 1998 Act, to the extent that the legislation states that it is to be treated as a pre-commencement enactment, but did not include the 1998 Act or this Act (or any amendment made by either of those Acts) or (subject to paragraph (c)) an enactment comprised in subordinate legislation under either of those Acts.”
“Most people in Scotland support our place in the United Kingdom and do not want a second referendum—that is a fact that the SNP cannot face up to. This new clause is a distraction from the real powers contained in this Bill. The Bill gives the Scottish Parliament significant new powers, with the strength of the United Kingdom. The SNP needs to tell us how it intends to use those powers for the benefit of the people of Scotland. I will therefore not be supporting new clause 36 and am again proposing that people support my amendments. Question put and agreed to. New clause 12 accordingly read a Second time, and added to the Bill.”
“I want to deal with new clause 36, which is an important proposal—at least the hon. Gentleman’s colleagues suggest it is. In September 2014, the people of Scotland voted decisively to remain part of the United Kingdom, and to retain our two Parliaments and two Governments. The SNP reassured us repeatedly in advance of the referendum that it would be a once-in-a-generation or once-in-a-lifetime event. The First Minister herself signed the Edinburgh agreement, which committed both of Scotland’s Governments to respect the outcome of the independence referendum. However much the SNP might dislike the fact, the 2 million people in Scotland who voted no voted to keep our United Kingdom. Their votes should be respected and not set aside as an unfortunate setback on the road to independence.”
“Amendments 70 and 71 to clause 19 ensure that the Scottish Parliament can, if it wishes, legislate for the payment of a carer’s benefit to a person who is under 16, is in full-time education or is gainfully employed. The Scottish Government will be able to pay anyone on a reserved benefit a top-up payment. That includes being able to top up benefits such as tax credits, child benefit and universal credit.”
“On welfare more generally, the Government are proposing a number of changes to the welfare clauses, responding to a number of comments made by Members of this House in Committee, as well as the Scottish Parliament and other stakeholders. As a result, it will be beyond doubt that the Scotland Bill fully delivers on the Smith commission agreement and that the Scottish Parliament will have significant responsibilities for areas of welfare. I was pleased to see these changes receiving a full endorsement from Gordon Brown, from the Scottish media, and indeed from all objective observers. The Scottish Government are getting responsibility for disability and carer’s benefits that were worth £2.7 billion in Scotland last year, and they will be able to deliver new benefits in all areas of devolved responsibility if they wish.”
“Let me begin by dealing with the specific issue of welfare funds, on which I am accepting an amendment that the SNP tabled in Committee. The Smith commission agreement stated that the devolution of welfare foods should be the subject of further discussion between the UK and Scottish Governments. This has taken place, and I am pleased that new clause 14 and consequential amendments 79, 80, 82 and 83 devolve powers to the Scottish Parliament concerning welfare foods. They will be able to abolish or amend existing schemes, which includes the nursery milk scheme and health start scheme, or make new schemes for the provision of welfare foods.”
“The House will be aware that we have also delivered on other areas of Smith in full. Scottish Ministers will be able to make regulations for certain elements of universal credit, such as the frequency of payments and to whom they are paid.”
“This power is significant: the Scottish Parliament will no longer be able to say that it is constrained by Westminster in deciding what it does, and it will be able to choose what additional benefits to offer people in Scotland. I must, however, make very clear a few important points about the new power that the Scottish Parliament will get to create new benefits in devolved areas. Any new benefits that the Scottish Government want to deliver will be in parallel to the benefits that are delivered by the UK Government. The new power does not affect Westminster’s ability to legislate for and to deliver support, and it does not enable the Scottish Parliament to change or amend reserved Westminster legislation in any way. The Scottish Parliament will need to both fund and deliver any new benefits from Scottish funds.”
“I have said it on numerous occasions and I am very happy to say it again: the Scotland Bill, as it progresses through the House this evening, will allow the Scottish Parliament to top up tax credits, and indeed child benefit and elements of universal credit. The Scottish Government will be able to pay shorter-term payments to help anyone, regardless of whether or not they are entitled to a reserved benefit, who has an immediate need for them and whose wellbeing is at risk. I have proposed important changes to the Bill so that the Scottish Parliament can create its own new benefits in any area of devolved responsibility. That will be achieved by new clause 34 and amendments 191 to 193. The Scottish Parliament will be able to do this without any need to consult the UK Government.”
“I do not know whether the hon. Lady is familiar with the income tax provisions in the Bill, but the Scottish Parliament will have complete control over income tax in Scotland. If it is concerned that people in work are not receiving sufficient income, it will be able to adjust those tax rates. The hon. Lady knows that tax credits are not being devolved, but she also knows that they can be topped up. She and her party have been particularly unwilling to say whether or not they propose to top up those benefits.”
“No, I will not give way. SNP Members will have a whole range of benefits, but rather than put any thought into how to evolve a welfare system in Scotland, they are taking the usual SNP position—focus, focus, focus on what we cannot do, rather than telling anybody in Scotland what we can do.”
“As I announced last month, UK and Scottish Ministers and officials have held discussions on the matter and reflected very carefully about the practicalities of devolution in this area.”
“It ensures that the areas that the agreement said should remain reserved—pensions, universal credit, sanctions and conditionality, and employment support delivered by Jobcentre Plus—remain the responsibility of the UK Government, but, importantly, it gives the Scottish Parliament full responsibility for many areas of welfare. The Scottish Parliament will have the autonomy to legislate for large areas of welfare, and I look forward to the beginning of the debate on how it intends to use those powers. The Smith commission agreement also recommended the devolution of abortion legislation, given that the parties to the agreement were strongly of the view that the anomalous reservation needed to be corrected.”
“That is at the heart of clauses 24 and 25, and I know that our officials have already had very constructive discussions with the Scottish Government on this subject. To ensure that the record is crystal clear, let me say that there are no UK Government vetoes anywhere in these welfare and employment clauses. I would like to emphasise that we have listened to the Scottish Government and to the debate in the House. For example, amendment 72, which enables the Scottish Government to provide non-financial assistance for maternity, funeral and heating expenses, reflects an amendment the SNP tabled in Committee. After full consideration, the Government are happy to make this change. Amendments 73, 76, 191 and 192 also relate to that provision. All in all, this settlement fully reflects the agreement reached by the Smith commission.”
“No. I have dealt with that issue. There was much debate in Committee on the universal credit powers. There were many inaccurate accusations that the UK Government would have a power to veto decisions of the Scottish Government. To put this beyond reasonable doubt, I have tabled amendments to clauses 24 and 25 to make it clear that there is no UK veto over decisions that the Scottish Government make in this space. Amendments 77 and 78 will strengthen the drafting of those provisions. The Secretary of State for Work and Pensions will remain legally responsible for the delivery of universal credit, but both Governments will need to work collaboratively to consider any such changes to the elements of universal credit.”
“I do not think that that is an accurate reflection of what I said. I made it very clear that the Smith commission had recommended the devolution of abortion and that we were engaged in a discussion with the Scottish Government. We have of course engaged with women’s groups in Scotland. The groups to whom I have spoken are clear that abortion can be devolved.”
“Not just at the moment, if the hon. Lady will let me finish. Those groups are clear that the Scottish Parliament has the capacity to deal with the issue of abortion, but they want its devolution to be handled sensitively. I think that we are in the process of doing that. The First Minister of Scotland has made it very clear that she has no plans to change the existing arrangements in relation to abortion. The hon. Member for Edinburgh South (Ian Murray) will know that devolving abortion to the Scottish Parliament will not simply lead to a change in the law in Scotland; that will happen only if the Scottish Parliament makes such a decision.”
“My starting point is that I believe that the Scottish Parliament has the capacity to deal with this issue. It is in danger of verging on the patronising to suggest that the Scottish Parliament is not capable of dealing with it. Even though it is an issue of great importance and conscience, I am satisfied that the Scottish Parliament has the capacity to deal with it.”
“I do not totally agree with that analysis, either. However, I am strongly of the view that there is no constitutional reason not to devolve abortion. The Scottish Parliament has responsibility for most aspects of the NHS and the criminal justice system.”
“I do not think that there is any evidence to suggest that what the right hon. Lady describes will be the case. There is considerable evidence that, over the past 16 years, the Scottish Parliament has dealt with sensitive matters in an appropriate way.”
“I can confirm that that is absolutely not the case. The Smith commission report makes it clear that devolution of abortion law should take place and that the reservation in the 1998 Act was anomalous in comparison with the health and criminal justice devolution that took place. The commission recognised, and I recognise, that this is a matter that must be dealt with sensitively. That is why there have been discussions with the Scottish Government, why the First Minister of Scotland has made her position on the issue clear and why Scotland’s Health Minister will meet shortly with women’s groups and interested parties in Scotland as the devolution of abortion progresses.”
“I am sure that the hon. Lady and other Members will have heard me say that I am absolutely satisfied that the Scottish Parliament has the capacity to deal with this issue. Although tonight and on other occasions there have been significant differences between us on what should and should not be devolved to the Scottish Parliament, the basis of my arguments has never been a belief that the Scottish Parliament is not capable of dealing with particular sensitive or difficult issues; it is just that I feel that the balance of responsibilities in the devolution settlement is better served in a different way. I genuinely believe that the balance of the devolution settlement is best served by abortion being devolved, which is consistent with the health and criminal justice devolution in the wider settlement.”
“It is almost a year since the Smith commission reported. There will be no change to the legal position on abortion in Scotland simply by this act of devolution.”
“If the hon. Lady looks at the Smith commission report, she will see that it does not say that the devolution of abortion law is in question or should be consulted on. What is to be consulted on is the process of that devolution, and it will be. The UK Government are committed to that approach and I have assured women’s groups in Scotland that I am committed to it. I know that the Scottish Government are committed to that approach, too. The First Minister could not have made her position clearer. This issue is about the constitutional balance between the United Kingdom and Scotland, and about where this decision is most appropriately taken. The Smith commission came to the clear conclusion that it appropriately lay with the Scottish Parliament. This measure is being taken forward in a measured way.”
“I think I have made it clear that simply devolving the power does not mean that there will be a change to the position under the 1967 Act. I am sure we will hear views on that, and we will of course listen to them.”
“As I have repeatedly said, there will be no change simply because of devolution, because the Scottish Government and the First Minister have stated that they do not intend to change the existing provisions.”
“That is not the nature of this debate. We are debating whether the Scottish Parliament should have responsibility on this issue, and I believe that it has the capacity to make decisions in an informed way. It is becoming offensive to suggest otherwise. When we debate other responsibilities for the Scottish Parliament, we do not do so based on its capacity or the idea that it might fall under undue influence and make the wrong decision. I think I have made the position clear, but I restate that we will continue to work closely with women’s groups and other interested parties to ensure that the devolution of abortion law is as smooth as possible.”
“I am afraid I am going to move on to discuss the Crown Estate, another important issue that has been much debated in the context of devolution. Clause 31 allows for the Crown Estate’s Scottish assets to be managed by the Scottish Government, and states that they should receive the revenue from the management of those assets.”
“They seek to ensure that costs are clear and equitable, by placing a duty on Scottish Ministers to design the Scottish energy company obligation in a way that should keep the costs of the obligations in Scotland within the share of any carbon emission reduction or home-heating cost reduction target apportioned to Scotland. Technical amendments 129 and 133 are needed to ensure that the member appointed to the Ofcom board by Scottish Ministers has the same functions and responsibilities as other board members. In conclusion, I am confident that the amendments I am proposing will be seen by objective observers as positive drafting changes that will strengthen the provisions and make clear that the Bill fully delivers the Smith commission agreement in words and in spirit.”
“Amendments 137 to 142 to clause 50 will enable Scottish Ministers to design and implement schemes for reducing fuel poverty in Scotland by imposing obligations on energy providers. The amendments transfer an additional power to Scottish Ministers so that they can set out in regulations the rules for determining the value of any benefit provided under a Scottish fuel poverty scheme, and set different benefit amounts for different categories of eligible consumers. The amendments also remove duplicate requirements on Scottish Ministers, and clarify that the Secretary of State can continue to exercise powers that are not transferred to Scottish Minsters. Amendments 143 to 154 to clause 51 take into account the debate in Committee.”
“Amendment 110 clarifies the extent of petroleum access powers that are being devolved in relation to land access for the purposes of searching and boring for petroleum under a licence. Amendment 114 allows existing cross-border licences to be split so that Scottish Ministers are granted administration of all licensed acreage in the Scottish onshore area. Clause 43 devolves power to the Scottish Parliament over the provision of consumer advocacy and advice in Scotland. Amendments 115 to 128 correct minor and technical errors in the clause and clarify the drafting of the provision that relates to the levy on gas and electricity companies and the postal sector, to fund relevant consumer advocacy. That levy will continue to be raised across the UK, and funds will continue to be apportioned to Scotland.”
“Minor and technical amendments 106 and 136 are required to correct the drafting in clause 37 and schedule 2, and do not impact on powers devolved in that area. Amendment 107 to clause 37 ensures that the Scottish Government are able to use the Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2016 once they come into effect. The Smith commission agreed that the licensing of onshore oil and gas licences in Scotland should be devolved to the Scottish Parliament. Amendments 111 to 113 and 108 improve the intended functioning of the oil and gas clauses that are to bring about a transfer of legislative competence. Amendment 109 ensures that the competence of the Scottish Parliament over given licences in the Scottish onshore area is not affected by geological processes on the coastline.”