David Mundell
MP for Dumfriesshire, Clydesdale and Tweeddale · Conservative · United Kingdom
“It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Dr Allin-Khan. I pay tribute to the hon. Member for Gillingham and Rainham (Naushabah Khan), not just for her thoughtful contribution but for securing this debate. It is so important that we take every opportunity we can to shine a light on this conflict.”
“Member for Oxford East (Anneliese Dodds). I am sure that the new Minister, whom I welcome to her post, will do likewise. Nevertheless, as I said, Sudan remains chronically under-reported.”
“I absolutely agree. I—and the Minister, I am sure—would like the Quad that was established to be more effective in relation to the involvement of the United States and neighbouring countries, with those neighbouring countries playing a positive role rather than supporting the protagonists in the conflict. As the right hon.”
“As UN Security Council penholder, the UK has a distinct moral and diplomatic duty to lead these negotiations at the upcoming UN General Assembly and press relentlessly for a humanitarian truce, a permanent ceasefire, robust civilian protection, civic engagement and unhindered aid access.”
“I recognise that the Minister and her colleagues in the Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office must navigate delicate regional dynamics, but the Government must not shy away from forcefully challenging the covert actions of some of our Gulf allies in Sudan, both publicly and in private diplomacy.”
“We saw the horrific realities of the crisis just two weeks ago with the totally unacceptable attack on a World Food Programme convoy in Kordofan. Civilian personnel were injured and lifesaving aid was destroyed.”
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“It removes ambiguity from the drafting, and more clearly sets out the mechanism by which the management and operation of reserved tribunals will be devolved to the Scottish Parliament. New clause 17 and consequential amendments 134 and 135 will allow the UK Government to change primary and secondary legislation so that fines, forfeitures and fixed penalties imposed by courts and tribunals in Scotland are required to be paid to the Scottish consolidated fund, and therefore retained by the Scottish Government. That delivers the Smith commission agreement. The Bill devolves to the Scottish Parliament legislative and Executive competence relating to national speed limits and traffic signs in Scotland.”
“New clause 16 and the consequential amendments 102 to 104 and 97 confirm that Scottish Ministers may, by order, commence and implement part 1 of the Equality Act 2010 in Scotland. That provides for the devolution of socioeconomic rights to the Scottish Parliament. Amendments 96 and 98 to 101 to clause 32 similarly represent a revised and improved drafting approach. They strengthen the clause on appointments to the boards of public bodies that exercise devolved functions in Scotland, and they make clear that the Scottish Parliament could legislate to introduce protections, requirements and positive measures—including gender quotas—for such appointments to boards of public sector bodies. Amendment 105 to clause 33 is intended to make the purpose, effect and operation of the tribunals provision clearer.”
“Amendments 84 to 95 strengthen the delivery of the Smith commission recommendation and the drafting of the clause. They make clear the policy intent of the clause, including the protection to be included in the transfer scheme relating to electricity charges and the obligation to maintain an estate in land, with the proceeds from any disposal having to be reinvested in the estate. I have also tabled a number of amendments on equal opportunities. Having engaged with stakeholders and the Scottish Government on the equal opportunities provisions and having reflected on the debates in Committee, we have responded to representations that have been made on how clause 32 might be made clearer.”
“Obviously I do not accept that analysis. The Crown Estate transfer scheme and the memorandum between both Governments have been published and are in the House Library, and copies are available in the Vote Office. I see that the Scottish Government have already come back with their comments on the proposals. The clause clearly means that the Scottish Parliament will have the competence to legislate for the management of the Scottish assets, and to further devolve powers to local authorities and communities should it wish. I hope that, in accordance with the provisions that Lord Smith set out in the agreement, it will do so. The clause also provides for the protections envisaged by the Smith commission to ensure that the transfer is not detrimental to defence or other UK-wide critical national infrastructure.”
“What was devolved were extensive powers that allow the topping up of tax credits and other benefits; the creation of new benefits in devolved areas; the topping up of child benefit; and changes to be made to income tax—”
“I do not want to say too much more at this stage, other than to welcome the fact that, other than in relation to the issue of abortion, to which I shall return, the Government’s proposals have been accepted. I am grateful for that. In Committee, I said we would listen to sensible proposals made in the context of the Smith agreement, and that is what we have done. That is why I am not persuaded by some of the amendments, particularly those set out by the hon. Member for Banff and Buchan (Dr Whiteford) on the welfare system. They do not relate to areas that form part of the agreement. As we have mentioned on other occasions during this debate, the SNP was of course part of the Smith commission process and it signed up to an agreement that at that point did not seek to devolve tax credits to the Scottish Parliament.”
“I strongly believe that the Scottish Parliament has the capacity to deal with this issue. There is no constitutional reason why this amendment should not be made, and the Smith commission did indeed recommend that it be done. It said that it should be done sensitively and that there should be a process. I am happy to talk about that process. I know that the Scottish Government are happy to talk about that process and to engage with interested parties. On that basis, I do hope that the House will not divide on these issues. The Government have set out their amendments—”
“Benefits in Scotland can be completely redesigned in areas such as disability and carers’ benefits. They are reserved benefits that the Scottish Parliament can top up. Changes in income tax is another such matter. However, that is not where the thought process is; the thought process is entirely on what cannot be done. As we have heard in the various statements on benefits, it really has been a case of “grievo-max” rather than devo-max. I know that the right hon. Member for Normanton, Pontefract and Castleford (Yvette Cooper) does not agree with my position on abortion, and that she is minded to oppose this measure. However, if my amendment is carried, I will meet her and any of her concerned colleagues to discuss how we can best proceed to ensure that the matters that she set out do not come to pass. I do not believe that they will.”
“The Scottish Government will have to take into consideration all the decisions that they make, because they will be responsible and accountable. I suspect that we will see a change in them. They will move from a position of making uncosted promises to one where they are held to account for where the money is coming from. I do not agree with the Scottish Labour party’s commitment to put up the taxes of hard-working people in Scotland, but at least it is honest about it. It wants to put up tax to pay for additional benefits in Scotland. That is a fair position for it to adopt, but the Scottish National party has said nothing about how it will deploy these significant new powers. Once again, in relation to welfare, the focus has been solely on what cannot be done rather than on applying thought and rigour to exactly what can be achieved.”
“It provides competence to legislate for social security benefits the cost of which is to be met from the Scottish Consolidated Fund. Brought up, read the First and Second time, and added to the Bill. New Clause 15 Abortion “In Part 2 of Schedule 5 to the Scotland Act 1998 (specific reservations) omit Section J1 (abortion).” — (Stephen Barclay.) This amendment removes the specific reservation of abortion in part 2 of schedule 5 of the Scotland Act 1998 thereby devolving legislative competence on the subject-matter of abortion to the Scottish Parliament. Brought up, and read the First time. Question put, That the clause be read a Second time.”
“(4) In paragraph 2, at the end insert— “(5) Sub-paragraph (3) does not affect sub-paragraph (1) as it applies to an Act of the Scottish Parliament so far as any matter to which a provision of the Act relates falls within exception 10 of Section F1 of Part 2 of Schedule 5.” (5) In paragraph 3, at the end insert— “(3) Sub-paragraph (1) does not affect the application of paragraph 2 to modifications which are incidental to, or consequential on, any provision, if it is only by virtue of exception 10 of Section F1 of Part 2 of Schedule 5 that the provision does not relate to reserved matters.”” . . — (Stephen Barclay.) This amendment creates a new exception to the social security reservation to provide the Scottish Parliament with new powers to create new benefits.”
“In this exception the reference to schemes supported from sums paid out of the Scottish Consolidated Fund does not include schemes— (a) in respect of which sums are at some time paid out of the Scottish Consolidated Fund, but (b) which are directly supported from payments out of the Consolidated Fund, the National Insurance Fund or the Social Fund, or out of money provided by Parliament.” (3) Schedule 4 (enactments etc protected from modification) is amended as follows.”
“This exception does not except providing assistance where the requirement for it arises from reduction, non-payability or suspension of a reserved benefit as a result of an individual’s conduct (for example, non-compliance with work-related requirements relating to the benefit) unless— (a) the requirement for it also arises from some exceptional event or exceptional circumstances, and (b) the requirement for it is immediate. For the purposes of this exception “reserved benefit” means a benefit which is to any extent a reserved matter.”
“(2) In Section F1 of Part 2 of Schedule 5, in the Exceptions, after exception 9 (see section [Welfare foods] above) insert— Exception 10 Schemes which provide assistance for social security purposes to or in respect of individuals by way of benefits and which— (a) are supported from sums paid out of the Scottish Consolidated Fund, (b) do not fall within exceptions 1 to 9, and (c) are not connected with reserved matters (other than matters reserved only by virtue of this Section). This exception does not except providing assistance by way of pensions to or in respect of individuals who qualify by reason of old age.”
“No, I will not. The amendments set out by both Labour and the SNP in relation to this group go beyond what the Smith commission proposed. The Government amendments deliver the Smith commission in full. On that basis, I hope that the House will support the Government amendments. Question put and agreed to. New clause 14 accordingly read a Second time, and added to the Bill. New Clause 34 Power to create other new benefits ‘(1) The Scotland Act 1998 is amended as follows.”
“What kind of schemes to address fuel poverty best suit the particular circumstances of Scotland? Will local communities be given a greater say in the management of assets such as the Crown Estate? How can Scotland’s public sector boards show the way forward for gender equality? Each of those decisions will now form a direct part of Scotland’s vigorous public debate, and each of them will be made in Scotland for the first time. The Scottish Parliament and the Scottish Government will be more responsible and more accountable to the people of Scotland. That is what the Bill means for Scotland: the vow delivered, and a powerhouse Parliament within a strong United Kingdom. Now is the time for us all to work together to make these new powers a success for Scotland.”
“No individual or party holds a monopoly of wisdom in respect of how the Smith agreement might best be translated into legislation, and the six days of debate that we have had on the Floor of the House have allowed me to listen to a variety of points of view and suggestions for further improvement. The Government have responded with the package of amendments that was presented on Report, and the Bill will proceed to the other place with its provisions clarified and strengthened. There can be no reasonable doubt that the Bill delivers the Smith agreement in full, and the debate now moves from constitutional arguments to the important decisions that will affect the lives of people in Scotland. Will the Scottish Government create new benefits, or top up existing ones?”
“I also thank my own officials and those in other Departments throughout Whitehall for their contributions. The origin of the Bill was the Smith agreement, and I again pay tribute to Lord Smith of Kelvin and the representatives of all five of Scotland’s political parties for reaching an agreement which represents the new devolution settlement for Scotland. I also pay tribute to everyone who has worked so hard since then to enable us to reach this point today. I sincerely believe that the Bill delivers what the people of Scotland voted for decisively last September: one of the most powerful devolved Parliaments in the world, with the strength and security that come from being part of our United Kingdom.”
“I beg to move, That the Bill be now read the Third time. I thank all Members for their participation in the debates that have taken place as the Bill has passed through the House. I believe the Bill has been strengthened by the scrutiny it has received, and the number of positive and constructive amendments that have been agreed to today is testimony to that. I particularly want to acknowledge the work of Bruce Crawford MSP and the Scottish Parliament’s Devolution (Further Powers) Committee, which has proved invaluable. Although I have not agreed with them on everything, I respect enormously their contribution to the Bill’s passage. I thank John Swinney MSP and the Scottish Government officials for their always courteous engagement in the process. Scotland obtains the best outcome when its two Governments work together.”
“Before I answer the question, may I begin by commending you, Mr Speaker, not just for your attendance at the Davis cup semi-final in Glasgow, but for the enthusiasm with which you got behind Team GB for that momentous win? I am sure you will join me not only in wishing our Team GB the best in the final in Ghent, but in confirming that Glasgow, as it has once again demonstrated with the world gymnastics championships, is a great sporting city. The UK Government have given local communities the final say on new onshore wind developments in England. Planning for onshore wind is a matter fully devolved to the Scottish Parliament and sadly the Scottish Government have kept that power to themselves. I would urge them to look closely at this Government’s policy of an affordable energy mix that also protects our natural landscapes.”
“I agree with my hon. Friend. The current Scottish Government are one of the most centralising Governments on record, routinely overruling the wishes of local people and local authorities. The UK Government are delivering devolution to Scotland. As Lord Smith recommended, let us see devolution delivered within Scotland.”
“I am always happy to look at individual cases raised by Members from Scotland. I would be delighted to meet the hon. Lady and hear more about the case she sets out.”
“I agree with my hon. Friend. The response of Scottish National party MPs says it all—they think they know best and know better than local people. Let us see local decision making. Let us see Lord Smith’s individual recommendation on devolution within Scotland honoured by the Scottish Government.”
“The Scotland Bill will make the Scottish Parliament the most powerful devolved Parliament in the world. What we require now is to hear from the SNP and the Scottish Government how they will use these Parliaments. They prefer arguments about process. They do not want to tell us what they will do and they do not follow that through with action.”
“The hon. Gentleman could learn a lot from the leader of the Western Isles Council, who is keen to have confirmation that the Scottish Government will devolve responsibility for the Crown Estate to the Western Isles—a measure that he, as MP for the Western Isles, does not appear to support. [Interruption.]”
“The Scotland Bill delivers the Smith commission agreement in full. I have tabled amendments that strengthen the Bill and look forward to it returning to the House for debate next week. It represents another milestone in making the Scottish Parliament one of the most powerful devolved Parliaments in the world.”
“I do not recognise my hon. Friend’s description of the Barnett formula, which of course will remain in place. The Scottish Parliament will now have significant powers over tax and welfare, and it is about time the SNP told us what it will do with them.”
“I am sorry that the right hon. Gentleman did not read my written statement on Monday, which updated the House on the progress of the fiscal framework. What I recognise in the right hon. Gentleman’s comments are these words from the editorial of the Daily Record: “Moan, moan…whinge, whinge. Their response has been as negative as it was predictable. A cynic might argue that the SNP don’t actually want those new powers because it makes them…accountable to the people of Scotland.””
“Not only does the right hon. Gentleman not read written statements; he did not even listen to my answer to my hon. Friend the Member for Harrow East (Bob Blackman)—perhaps he will read Hansard. The reality is that the powers being delivered to the Scottish Parliament will make it the most powerful devolved Parliament in the world. Rather than SNP Members telling us what they will do with those powers, it is grievance and grudge. The Scottish Parliament acknowledges that tax credits can be topped up, so will the SNP top them up—yes or no?”
“As I set out in my written statement, the UK Government are proceeding towards the comprehensive spending review, which I am sure the hon. Gentleman accepts is a major task, and shortly thereafter the Scottish Government will proceed with the Scottish draft Budget. When I met the Deputy First Minister John Swinney last week, he gave me confidence in his wanting to reach a fiscal framework agreement. That is certainly the position of the UK Government, which is why I was able to answer the question from the hon. Member for Lanark and Hamilton East (Angela Crawley) in the way that I did.”
“As the hon. Gentleman well knows, a statement has been published after each meeting of the Joint Exchequer Committee. I take John Swinney and the Scottish Government at face value—that they want to reach a fair agreement for Scotland. The United Kingdom Government want to reach a fair agreement for Scotland. That is in all our interests and I am confident that that will be achieved.”
“I have regular discussions with the Deputy First Minister, John Swinney, and our officials are in close contact on provisions in the Scotland Bill. I have now tabled changes to strengthen the Bill in delivering the Smith commission agreement in full.”
“Monday’s written statement set out that the fiscal framework agreement is likely to come after the comprehensive spending review and once the draft Scottish Budget has been completed.”
“It is clear that Scottish National party Members do not listen to answers, and if they read Hansard they will see the response that I gave to my hon. Friend. The fiscal framework is an agreement. Who is negotiating on behalf of the Scottish Government? It is John Swinney, the Deputy First Minister. The comments of SNP Members suggest that they do not have much confidence in his ability to reach a fair deal for Scotland.”
“I do not agree with Kezia Dugdale, but at least she has the guts to stand up and say that she will put up taxes and put up tax credits. The SNP has said precisely nothing. It wants an argument about process, instead of telling us what it will do with these important new powers.”
“Recorded incidents of anti-Semitism in Scotland are thankfully low, but I am not complacent. I echo the Prime Minister’s view that tackling anti-Semitism goes right to the heart of what we stand for as a country. Whatever our politics and whatever our faith, we must seek to defeat it.”
“I certainly will, and I am very happy to do so. I should also say to the hon. Gentleman that, despite the many robust exchanges that we have in the Chamber, all MPs from Scotland are united in the view that we cannot tolerate anti-Semitism.”
“Absolutely, and I commend the hon. Lady for the extent to which, during her short time as a Member of Parliament, she has already engaged with that important Jewish community in Scotland. I also commend the work of the Scottish Government in that regard. As I said earlier, this is a matter on which we are all united, supporting Jewish communities and not accepting anti-Semitism.”
“The Smith commission recommended that abortion law be devolved to the Scottish Parliament, but recognised that the issue needed to be handled sensitively by the UK and Scottish Governments. Following ministerial discussion between Scotland’s two Governments, I confirmed that abortion would be devolved in the Scotland Bill, and wrote to interested parties. As I have already confirmed, there will be ongoing engagement with women’s groups as the matter is taken forward.”
“I think it would be helpful if I confirmed that because abortion law is being devolved, that does not mean that there will be any change. The existing arrangements will continue to apply in Scotland until they are changed by the Scottish Parliament. I am very pleased to note that the First Minister of Scotland has confirmed that she has no plans at all to change the existing abortion law in Scotland.”
“I recognise, of course, the concerns the right hon. Lady raises, but the Scottish Parliament already has responsibility for criminal justice and health issues, and it has dealt with some very sensitive issues extremely well in my view. I have spoken to women’s groups in Scotland such as Engender, Abortion Rights Scotland and Scottish Women’s Aid. They believe that the devolution can take place but want to be consulted about that, and they will be.”
“The order demonstrates the Government’s commitment to honouring the Smith commission agreement. It also demonstrates the way in which this Government can work effectively with the Scottish Government to make the devolution settlement work. I commend the order to the Committee.”
“The amendments to both schedules will combine to ensure that the Scottish Parliament has the power to determine the date of the first Scottish parliamentary ordinary general election after that to be held next May. The order also amends section 2 of the 1998 Act in connection with the amendments to schedules 4 and 5. However, the order places certain limitations on the day that can be chosen. Specifically, the order will prevent the day of the poll determined by the Scottish Parliament from being the same as the day of the poll at a UK parliamentary general election, other than an early parliamentary general election, a European parliamentary general election or an ordinary local government election in Scotland. I would like to make it clear that those limitations were recommended in the Smith commission agreement.”
“The order therefore amends schedule 4 to the 1998 Act to allow an Act of the Scottish Parliament to modify section 2(2) in relation to the first Scottish parliamentary ordinary general election after 2016. Secondly, as the Committee knows, schedule 5 to the 1998 Act lists the matters that are reserved to this Parliament. Among other things, elections for membership of the Scottish Parliament are reserved. In order that the Scottish Parliament can determine the day of the poll at the first Scottish parliamentary ordinary general election after 2016, the order will amend schedule 5 to provide that that matter will no longer be a reserved matter.”
“Section 30 provides a mechanism whereby schedule 4 or schedule 5 to that Act can be modified by an Order in Council, subject to the agreement of both the UK and Scottish Parliaments. The order amends both schedules 4 and 5 to the 1998 Act. First, schedule 4 to the 1998 Act lists enactments that are protected from modification by the Scottish Parliament. Much of the 1998 Act itself is included in this list. As I have already mentioned, the 1998 Act provides for the poll at Scottish parliamentary ordinary general elections to be held on the first Thursday in May every fourth year. Section 2(2) of the 1998 Act makes that particular provision.”
“As the Committee will know, the current Scotland Bill makes provision to implement that recommendation. However, as both the UK and Scottish Governments agree that Scottish parliamentary electors should be aware of the term of the Scottish Parliament to which they are electing Members when they vote in May 2016, we are faced with an issue of timing. If the Scottish Parliament is to legislate in advance of the May 2016 election to determine a date for the first Scottish parliamentary ordinary general election after that one, the power to do so needs to be devolved now. Devolving that power is exactly what this order does. The order is made under section 30 of the 1998 Act.”
“The Scotland Act 1998, to which I shall refer as the 1998 Act, provides for the poll at Scottish parliamentary ordinary general elections to be held on the first Thursday in May every fourth year. All this combines to mean that, as things currently stand, there are due to be general elections to both the UK and Scottish Parliaments on 7 May 2020. It is agreed that a clash of elections is undesirable and this Government have always been committed to ensuring that any clash is avoided. The Government are also committed to implementing the recommendations of the Smith commission agreement. One of those recommendations is that the Scottish Parliament should have all powers in relation to Scottish parliamentary and local government elections in Scotland.”
“I beg to move, That the Committee has considered the draft Scotland Act 1998 (Modification of Schedules 4 and 5) Order 2015. It is an honour to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Gray. I know that as a Scot you take a close interest in all matters that relate to Scotland. If it pleases the Committee, I shall provide a brief summary of the background to the order and set out what it seeks to achieve. When the Fixed-term Parliaments Act 2011 was passed, it provided that the next general election for membership of this Parliament would occur on 7 May 2020. That same Act also provided that the next Scottish parliamentary ordinary general election would be on 5 May 2016.”
“I have discussed with the Scottish Government the delivery of the Smith commission report’s recommendations, and we agreed that if it were necessary to meet the timing of the transfer of the Work programme arrangements, I would be willing to consider introducing a section 30 order to fit in with the Scottish Government’s roll-out of their proposed Work programme. However, at the moment, we believe that, should the Scotland Bill be enacted according to the timescale currently envisaged—by next spring—that will allow the Scottish Government to move forward with the Work programme as they would wish. I hope that clarification satisfies the hon. Gentleman. Question put and agreed to.”
“I thank the hon. Gentleman for his kind words. I felt that it was appropriate to introduce the order myself because it is a very important measure that relates to the Scotland Bill. The hon. Gentleman will know that we have already taken forward the order that allows the Scottish Parliament to determine whether 16 or 17-year-olds can vote in next year’s Scottish parliamentary elections, and the Scottish Parliament has decided to allow them to vote. We should take this opportunity to encourage everyone to register so that all eligible 16 and 17-year-olds can vote in those elections.”