David Mundell
MP for Dumfriesshire, Clydesdale and Tweeddale · Conservative · United Kingdom
“It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Dr Allin-Khan. I pay tribute to the hon. Member for Gillingham and Rainham (Naushabah Khan), not just for her thoughtful contribution but for securing this debate. It is so important that we take every opportunity we can to shine a light on this conflict.”
“Member for Oxford East (Anneliese Dodds). I am sure that the new Minister, whom I welcome to her post, will do likewise. Nevertheless, as I said, Sudan remains chronically under-reported.”
“I absolutely agree. I—and the Minister, I am sure—would like the Quad that was established to be more effective in relation to the involvement of the United States and neighbouring countries, with those neighbouring countries playing a positive role rather than supporting the protagonists in the conflict. As the right hon.”
“As UN Security Council penholder, the UK has a distinct moral and diplomatic duty to lead these negotiations at the upcoming UN General Assembly and press relentlessly for a humanitarian truce, a permanent ceasefire, robust civilian protection, civic engagement and unhindered aid access.”
“I recognise that the Minister and her colleagues in the Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office must navigate delicate regional dynamics, but the Government must not shy away from forcefully challenging the covert actions of some of our Gulf allies in Sudan, both publicly and in private diplomacy.”
“We saw the horrific realities of the crisis just two weeks ago with the totally unacceptable attack on a World Food Programme convoy in Kordofan. Civilian personnel were injured and lifesaving aid was destroyed.”
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“The high rates of marginal taxation have led the Institute of Fiscal Studies to conclude that although the Government’s over-reliance on means-tested benefits may reduce measured child poverty in the short term, “its indirect effect may be to increase poverty through weakening incentives for parents to work”. In short, I very much accept that tax credits are an essential part of modern welfare policy, but I want to see them simplified, and the disincentives to work that are the unintended consequence of the system reduced. I also want to see much better support for people looking to get back into work, with effective practices adapted from other countries and an expectation that the unemployed, if able to do so, will take part in welfare-to-work programmes.”
“An illustration of how many people suffer such disincentives is the fact that more than 2 million working people in the UK stand to lose, in a vicious combination of increased taxes and cuts in their benefits, more than half of any increase in earnings that they make. The abolition of the 10p tax rate will exacerbate this situation even further. Notwithstanding the compensation package that has been forced out of the Government, the number will rise to more than 2.25 million. If we take the problem of high marginal taxation at its most extreme, some 160,000 people in Britain would keep less than 10p of each extra £1 that they earned. To put that into perspective, that is three times the entire population of Inverness. For working an extra hour, often in hard jobs, those people would earn only a few more pennies.”
“The most innocent explanation is that the Government wished to create a system that did not waste money and targeted help where it was needed, even if that has not been achieved in practice. This is not the place to speculate on which motive was most likely, as more important issues are at stake. The most important issue is that this very heavy means testing has imposed high marginal rates of taxation on many low-income families and has therefore undermined the incentive for parents to take on a job, work more hours or move up the career ladder. The Treasury itself says that “worklessness and low pay are the biggest direct causes of poverty...a child’s risk of being in poverty falls from 58 per cent. to 14 per cent. when one or both their parents is working”.”
“In other words, the Government have been able to present themselves in a favourable light to the media without letting on that the problems of very severe poverty have largely been left untouched. So, if we accept that the system is unnecessarily complex, we must consider why it has been constructed in such a way. While I do not dispute that the current Prime Minister—the previous Chancellor—may be attracted to complexity for its own sake, a far more likely explanation is that the Government were determined to micro-manage the incomes of millions of Britons. Some have speculated that this was for ideological reasons. Others have said that it was to make people think that they were in some way dependent on the Government’s staying in power.”
“I do not accept the hon. Lady’s proposition at all. In fact, her contribution typifies the approach of Labour Members, who wish to focus entirely on the past, and not on the future or on their inability to meet the targets that they set for themselves. It is unfortunate that Labour’s policies were all calculated on the basis of a very narrow measure of poverty: having less than 60 per cent. of average median income, adjusting for family size. On that basis, the Government set a target of halving child poverty by 2010 and eliminating it by 2020. Although I share that aspiration, I would point out that progress to date has been largely achieved by moving hundreds of people who were receiving a few pounds a week less than the poverty line to a position in which they receive a few pounds more.”
“It is time to reinterpret those images for the 21st century, and I hope that this debate will contribute something towards doing that.”
“I also want to see much better support for people looking to get back into work, with effective practices adapted from other countries and an expectation that the unemployed are to take part in welfare-to-work programmes. Most important, much more focus should be put on preventing the root causes of poverty. This means tackling educational failure, family breakdown, indebtedness, drug abuse and crime. I also want to see the UK’s devolved and local government support voluntary and community groups in their efforts against poverty, even if that means giving up some control. Sir Winston Churchill, who is always worth a mention, summed up welfare policy in two images when he talked about a ladder— “We are for the ladder. Let all try their best to climb”— and a net below which none should fall.”
“Community groups are especially valuable, as they are well placed to put people with experience of poverty into the front line of action against it. I was struck recently when the Church and Society Council of the Church of Scotland said on its annual visit to Westminster that, just as the civil rights struggle in America could not have been won if it had been led by white people, and the feminist movement could not have achieved its aims if it had been led by men, so action against poverty will be truly effective only if it is led by those who have first-hand experience of poverty. Tax credits are an essential part of modern welfare policy, but as I have said, I want to see them simplified, and the disincentives to work, which are the unintended consequence of the system, cut back.”
“As I said in my opening remarks, I was particularly pleased that Glasgow city council and others who are usually described as “stakeholders” gave this important report such a warm welcome. The report praised at some length the burgeoning number of voluntary projects and workers who were “battling largely unsung in their efforts to rebuild the lives of the many people left behind by Glasgow’s economic rebirth”. It is all too easy to look at just what the Government are doing, but we should never forget the impact of charities, faith-based organisations and even individual acts of kindness in the fight against poverty. They can be more responsive to local needs than central Government. Third-sector groups often achieve excellent value for money.”
“Finally, drug abuse and crime are issues for the Scottish Government, but I point out, particularly to Members from the Scottish National party, that the Conservative group in the Scottish Parliament forced the minority SNP Administration into developing a drug strategy for Scotland and putting a real 500 extra police on the beat, by making that a precondition for supporting the Administration’s Budget. I have already mentioned the “Breakthrough Britain” report produced by the Centre for Social Justice, but I am sure that many Members are aware that a specific study on Glasgow was undertaken by the centre. Greater Glasgow is an area that impacts significantly on the poverty statistics for Scotland, and it is right that it was chosen for such a study.”
“Friend the Member for Chingford and Woodford Green entitled “Breakthrough Britain” said, possible solutions to the debt crisis include improving financial literacy, providing more information and more accessibility to savings for low-income families, strengthening the role of credit unions and increasing competition in the home credit market. This could be matched by more transparency of interest rates and charges, better regulation of the advertising of credit, data sharing among lenders and greater care in lending practices, particularly for low-income families.”
“On debt, I welcome the forthcoming inquiry by the Select Committee on Scottish Affairs into the credit union system, as it can make a significant contribution. Debt is a serious problem for millions. Furthermore, it could easily become a problem in the future for even more people. An energy crisis, a recession in the US, global terrorism or a substantial fall in house prices could change the economic climate, plunging many more people into a severe debt crisis. Debt is a particular problem for people on low incomes. With few savings to fall back on and still little or no access to mainstream banking facilities, they are more vulnerable than other income groups to unexpected changes. As the report by my right hon.”
“As a result, the risk of poverty has hardly changed for children in two-parent families since 1997, and rose last year from 21 to 23 per cent. across the UK. In addition, 60 per cent. of poor children live in couple families. Based on the experience of similar schemes abroad, the Conservatives are confident that our radical welfare reform programme will return at least 600,000 people to work—enough to pay the cost of ending the couple penalty. That will mean that 1.8 million of the poorest couples with children will gain on average £32 a week and 300,000 children in two-parent families will be lifted out of poverty. The long-term effects will be greater still, as it is the first truly significant proposal to reduce family breakdown in a generation.”
“Ironically, the efforts of the left to help the poor have often been counterproductive. It is time that vocational education in particular was opened up to those in their early teens who are not interested in, or not suited to, the current curriculum. As for family breakdown, what we say and do in Westminster has a great effect in Scotland. Scotland has one of the highest rates of family breakdown in Europe, yet the Prime Minister’s tax credit system penalises couples for staying together. Couples with children can receive more money by living apart, or claiming to live apart. The cost of the so-called couple penalty can reach into the thousands. The Government’s policies discriminate so heavily against families with two parents that it is harder for couple families to escape poverty.”
“Unfortunately, the Scottish schools system fails to set many children on the path towards a skilled job or further study. Indeed, a higher proportion of young people are not in education, employment or training in Scotland than in any region of England, or any other country in the OECD. This represents an enormous waste of human potential, and has been estimated by the Scottish Government to cost as much as £1 billion per annum. I believe that that is the legacy of decisions stretching back many years over how our education system should operate. Those decisions were often made to satisfy left-wing ideology or notions of political correctness, rather than being based on pragmatic consideration of what worked best for the children. The one-size-fits-all approach must be left in the past.”
“Of course, the education system in Scotland is the responsibility of the Scottish Parliament and the Scottish Government. I shall therefore not dwell too long on the subject save to mention its importance in the context of this debate and to give a short synopsis of what my colleagues in the Scottish Parliament have said on the issues. The education system is important to this debate because its products are the parents of tomorrow. If they can get themselves established in a skilled job when they leave education, when they go on to have children those children are unlikely to grow up in poverty. As poverty is a generational issue, their children’s children, too, will have their risk of growing up in poverty dramatically reduced.”
“The hon. Lady has chosen to characterise the Wisconsin scheme in a way that meets her political objectives rather than according to the facts. We will bring forward comprehensive policies to encourage people to move from welfare to work. Tax credits may be an essential part of a modern welfare policy, but they are not the only approach, and the Government have rather neglected the others. Particularly, they have failed to see that correcting the symptoms of poverty, such as low wages, has to be complemented by attacking the root causes of poverty, including educational failure, family breakdown, indebtedness, drug abuse and crime. How the Government and Scottish Government can do that will form the second part of my contribution.”
“I am interested to hear what the hon. Lady is saying, and some of her points are very relevant. Perhaps she would explain why her colleagues in the Scottish Parliament abstained on the SNP Government’s Budget.”
“The Secretary of State will also be fully aware that huge costs are associated with ships that are waiting to load up with oil but cannot do so because of the industrial action. What is his understanding of the legal implications of this, and who will be liable for the extra costs incurred? Finally, what is his understanding of the impact that the strike will have on plans to invest in the future of Grangemouth? What impact does he think a strike will have on INEOS’s ability to fund the £750 million investment programme necessary to modernise the plant? In that respect, does he agree that a strike will put jobs at risk and damage the interests of those working at Grangemouth and of a vital British industry?”
“The Secretary of State will be aware that the industry believes that a two-day strike is damaging but containable, but there is profound concern about the implications of a longer dispute, which would undoubtedly increase the risk of serious shortages. How is he monitoring that situation? At what point, for example, would he expect Cobra to meet to establish what further action might be needed? In the meantime, can he give the House more details of how his Department is working with the industry to secure fuel from other sources to make up for the shortfall while Grangemouth is out of action? To what extent does he understand that fuel has been stockpiled to minimise the effect of the strike on the public?”
“Will the Secretary of State join me in endorsing the view of the AA that if people act sensibly then there will be no shortages? Where fuel is being provided by contingency measures, will he confirm that it will be equitably distributed throughout Scotland and not just to major centres of population? Can he also confirm that, as this situation does not represent a more general shortage, he would not expect there to be any impact on petrol prices at the garage forecourt anywhere in the United Kingdom? Will he monitor what happens to petrol prices to make sure that no one tries to take advantage of the situation and to push their prices up unfairly?”
“I do not know whether he has seen any of the headline-grabbing pronouncements from Scotland’s First Minister in the past few days, but it would seem that, for once, even his mythical powers have been unable to resolve this situation. I welcome the proportioned tones of the Secretary of State’s words, as he will be aware that there has been much speculation about the impact that this shutdown could have on individuals, services and the economy. Does he agree that we need to maintain a sense of proportion in relation to these events and to ensure that all analysis is objective? That will be the only way to deliver reassurance to the public that there is no need for the panic buying of petrol or the stockpiling of supplies.”
“My hon. Friend the Member for Rutland and Melton (Alan Duncan) apologises to the House for his inability to be here for the statement. I thank the Secretary of State for advance sight of the statement on a matter which is of particular concern to people in Scotland. May I begin by agreeing with him that the parties should get back round the negotiating table as a matter of urgency? I would ask both sides to lift their horizons beyond their own immediate interests, and to show a maturity and responsibility which reflects the serious consequences that this dispute could have for the public and the economy. I am pleased to learn that there has been close working with the Scottish Government, and I would grateful if the Secretary of State provided a little more detail on that.”
“The Minister will be aware that the availability of fossil fuels for electricity generation and other purposes is a major concern in Scotland, given the potential shutdown of the Grangemouth refinery. Will the Minister tell us what role the UK Government are playing in seeking a resolution to this matter, and will he update the House on the current position? Can he also offer business and private motorists in Scotland a reassurance that contingency arrangements are in hand to ensure that there will be no threat to fuel supplies, and that the panic buying and stocking up of petrol is therefore completely unwarranted?”
“Has the Secretary of State discussed with the Chancellor of the Exchequer the exact purpose of his factual paper on the Barnett formula? Given that the formula has been in operation for 30 years, that its details are well known and that the Treasury has not even consulted Lord Barnett about the preparation of the paper, is not the real purpose of the exercise not, as the Prime Minister claims, simply to inform the work of the Scottish constitutional commission, but to serve as the beginning of the review of the Barnett formula for which the Secretary of State for Justice and Labour Back Benchers have been lobbying?”
“I have heard what the Secretary of State has said about reviewing the Barnett formula, but is he really telling the House that no one on the Government Benches believes that such a review should take place? Specifically, will he confirm the position of the Justice Secretary on the Barnett formula, as he appears to be playing an increasingly shadowy role in Scottish devolution?”
“Perhaps the Secretary of State will explain to the House how it is tenable for Labour to agree to review the financial powers of the Scottish Parliament on the one hand, as he and the Prime Minister have done, but on the other hand to declare the Barnett formula to be sacrosanct.”
“Does the Minister agree that Border TV is important not just as a local news provider, but as a demonstration that people in the south of Scotland and the north of England, who have common interests and common concerns, are best served by a cross-border United Kingdom approach to broadcasting rather than the separatist broadcasting agenda promoted by the Scottish Government?”
“I fully support the comments of the hon. Member for Berwickshire, Roxburgh and Selkirk (Mr. Moore) and I would like to reinforce the strength of feeling among viewers on both sides of the border and among politicians of all parties for the retention of Border news, which provides a unique and fiercely local service to this primarily rural area. Anything that the Scotland Office can do to influence Ofcom and support local campaigners who oppose Michael Grade’s ill-thought-out merger with the Tyne Tees newsroom in Newcastle would be much appreciated.”
“When the Secretary of State next has a discussion with the First Minister, will he convey to him in the strongest terms the anger and disappointment felt in constituencies such as mine because of the SNP Government’s petty political posturing on nuclear power and their ill-thought-out approach to waste, which have already led to Scotland being written off by prospective investors in next-generation power stations? Will the Secretary of State make it clear to the First Minister that his policies will lead not only to questions about whether Scotland can be self-sufficient in meeting its fuel requirements, but to economic consequences through the loss of the skills and expertise that have been built up by the nuclear industry in Scotland over many years?”
“I am pleased that the right hon. Gentleman could give a categorical assurance to the House that there were no unlawful or completely unacceptable donations to the Scottish Labour party campaign for the Scottish elections—but does not this very issue highlight the reason why his predecessor the right hon. Member for Paisley and Renfrewshire, South (Mr. Alexander), who is now Secretary of State for International Development, should not have administered the elections and at the same time run the Labour party campaign?”
“But does the Secretary of State not agree that his predecessor, who was also Transport Secretary, has a lot of explaining to do to the House, not least about the Scottish election debacle? Does he not agree that rather than hide behind pre-recorded television interviews, his right hon. Friend should face scrutiny in the House and appear before the Scottish Affairs Committee?”
“In the light of that response, we shall judge whether his predecessor is fit to continue in public office. However, what is absolutely clear from this damning report is that in future no one should ever again hold ministerial responsibility for elections simultaneously with responsibility for the conduct of their party’s campaign, and the Minister should immediately be stripped of those responsibilities in the Labour party.”
“The review has revealed not only partisan decision making but serial incompetence: Ministers unable to pass legislation in time, unable to take decisions in time and unable to communicate with their counterparts in Scotland; decisions taken against all advice and two different elections with two different voting systems on the same day, with votes to be counted electronically through the night. The fact that the election was not an even worse shambles is due to the work of returning officers and their officials, who should never have been treated in such a cavalier manner. The current Secretary of State has said that he is not in a position to give a definitive response to the report, but what is required is for his predecessor to give the apology that he promised, and the definitive response the House requires.”
“Is not the position rendered even worse by the fact that the former Secretary of State was also Labour’s Scottish election co-ordinator? The Secretary of State knows that when candidates and agents break the rules for their advantage they go to prison. What sanction does he propose for Ministers who seek to make rules for their partisan advantage? If the Government cannot be trusted with the basic democratic duty to run elections fairly and without political interference, what can they be trusted to do? On 23 May, the right hon. Member for Paisley and Renfrewshire, South promised to apologise if the review found fault with the actions and decisions of the Scotland Office.”
“Gentleman has scant chance of success, because there can be no defence to the conclusion of an independent reviewer, who says that both the Scotland Office—the Scotland Office, Mr Speaker—and the Scottish Executive were frequently focused on partisan political interests in carrying out their responsibilities, overlooking voter interests and operational realities. Furthermore, what was characteristic of 2007 was a notable level of party self-interest evident in ministerial decision making. Does the Secretary of State agree that such behaviour is tantamount to attempting gerrymandering in the worst traditions of Tammany hall politics, and that it demonstrates complete contempt for the democratic process, laying bare the inner workings of the Labour establishment for all to see?”
“I thank the Secretary of State for his statement, and for the advance copy that he let me have. Although the inquiry was not held according to the terms that we sought, Mr. Gould is a leading world expert on the organisation and management of elections, and is a person of impeccable independence and expertise. The Secretary of State’s apparent suggestion that everybody is to blame, and that therefore no one is to blame, simply will not do. It is time for the Scotland Office to take responsibility for failing the people of Scotland. The right hon. Gentleman is also the Secretary of State for Defence, and today he has been forced to come to the House to defend his predecessor, who is, disappointingly but perhaps not surprisingly, absent. However, the right hon.”
“On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. In the light of the seriousness of the issues debated in today’s statement, the content of the Gould report and the previous undertakings given by the right hon. Member for Paisley and Renfrewshire, South (Mr. Alexander), will you confirm that it is in order for a Cabinet Member to come before the House to make a personal statement? Can you advise us whether any such request has been received?”
“We heard today, and in the last Scottish questions on 10 July, the Secretary of State’s commitment to co-operate. At the beginning of this term of the Scottish Parliament, the new First Minister said that under his stewardship the Scottish Parliament would be about compromise, concession, intelligent debate and mature discussion. The Secretary of State will accept, however, that the people of Scotland have not seen that over the past two weeks, and that they expect and deserve better from both their Governments. Does he now accept that the memorandum of understanding on managing the relationships between the UK Government and devolved Administrations is no longer fit for purpose? Does he agree that the Secretary of State for Justice should review it as soon as possible?”
“On foot and mouth compensation, surely the whole episode was entirely predictable as soon as the draft statement by the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs was changed. Why did not the Secretary of State for Scotland move to manage that situation? Will he tell the House when he knew that foot and mouth compensation had been offered by DEFRA, and when he knew that the terms of that offer had been changed? Will he clarify newspaper reports that the Minister of State has been charged with running round Whitehall Departments to tell them now not to give information to Scotland?”
“If it is not his job to review the memorandum of understanding, will he point out to the Secretary of State for Justice and Lord Chancellor that it states that, “this document will be reviewed by representatives of the administrations at a meeting of the Joint Ministerial Committee, at least annually and updated as necessary.”?”
“May I associate Conservative Members with the Secretary of State’s remarks about the emergency services and members of the public who showed such bravery in the face of the incident at Glasgow airport? I welcome the right hon. Gentleman to the Scotland Office and wish him well in his endeavours. I also welcome the new Minister of State. Given that we are all three staunch Unionists who are committed to making the devolution settlement work, I hope that we will make much common cause in the months ahead. I do not want to begin by telling the Secretary of State how to do his job. However, I encourage him to eschew the complacency of his immediate predecessors and take a direct interest in the evolving mechanisms to allow full, frank and effective working relationships between London and Edinburgh.”
“The Secretary of State has already made it clear that he understands that some Members of the Scottish Parliament interpreted the Government’s actions in recent times as compromising the spirit, if not the letter, of the memorandum. What can he say to the House today to reassure Members of the Scottish Parliament that arrangements between London and Edinburgh will be based on mutual respect? What steps will he take to ensure that all branches of the UK Government, including the Prime Minister’s office, are fully engaged on that basis, regardless of the opportunities that arise to highlight political differences?”
“He served as Shropshire’s first surveyor of public works in 1787, and so began a career that included the building of roads, bridges, churches, harbours and canals, many of which are still in use today.”
“He described his studies in the following way: “I read, and read, and glowred; then read and read again.” At the age of 23, Telford considered himself to be the master of his art and went to Edinburgh. Although he lived much of his adult life away from his place of birth, he always thought fondly of it, writing in his autobiography: “I still recollect with pride and pleasure my native parish of Westerkirk.” In Edinburgh, he studied drawing and its application to architecture. In 1782, Telford travelled south to find work in London, writing that he “judged it advisable (like many of my countrymen) to proceed southward, where industry might find more employment, and be better rewarded.” He was lucky to obtain work at Somerset House, an enormous construction project at the time.”
“His family were able to get him placed as an apprentice mason. His first master treated him very cruelly and Telford ran away, but his cousin Thomas Jackson found him work with Andrew Thomson, a Langholm mason. The Duke of Buccleuch was improving his estate at that time and Telford was kept busy, becoming a journeyman mason earning 18d a day. As he himself said, “I ever congratulate myself upon the circumstances which compelled me to begin by working with my own hands, and thus to acquire early experience of the habits and feelings of workmen”. During this time, Telford met Miss Pasley, whose books he was able to borrow. He became a voracious reader.”
“To understand the motivations of such a man, we need to accept and appreciate where he came from. Telford was born on 9 August 1757. His father was a herdsman on the sheep farm of Glendinning at Westerkirk. It was and remains a remote and isolated area. It is farmed today by Lorraine Luesher, who works hard to keep the tradition of hill farming alive in Eskdale and who has produced a booklet on the Telford legacy. His father died weeks after his birth and so his mother Janet brought up Thomas. The close-knit local community supported the boy, who was known as “laughing Tam” for his good nature. As a youngster, he attended Westerkirk school and much of his early life was spent working as a shepherd on neighbouring farms, and with his widowed mother. After leaving school, Telford looked for work that offered decent prospects.”
“That is just one reason why I would like to see the Government in Westminster and the Scottish Government in Edinburgh do more to promote recognition of the achievements of Telford and people of his ilk, who did so much to shape the modern world in the final centuries of the last millennium. Ahead of the debate, I had the opportunity to speak to Scotland’s new Culture Minister, Linda Fabiani MSP, and was encouraged by her acceptance that Scotland could do better in promoting the life and legacy of such people as Telford, who leave a permanent footprint on our way of life and remain a lasting influence over Scotland, the United Kingdom and the rest of the world. I want to make the same plea to the Minister on a United Kingdom basis because, with his works in Scotland, England, Wales and Ireland, Telford was truly a great Briton.”
“Telford stamped his presence on civil engineering and is more than worth the set of stamps that the Royal Mail is producing this year. His legacy to his profession was in the standards he set for a reliable system of estimates, contracts, specifications and tenders, which are as relevant today as they were in the 1800s. In our time, when social mobility is the subject of much debate, Thomas Telford’s achievement was that he rose from being the son of a shepherd on a remote Dumfriesshire hillside to being the most lauded and esteemed civil engineer in the empire. His poet friend Robert Southey termed him the “Colossus of Roads”.”
“Today, we take it for granted that motorways, bridges and canals exist. We do not stop to consider that planning these transport networks and many aspects of the methodology of construction were visualised hundreds of years before. Telford’s Glasgow-to-Carlisle road, of which many parts remain, runs through my constituency and was the equivalent of the modern M74 motorway, which is only now being completed between Gretna and Carlisle. Although this debate is taking place hundreds of miles from Telford’s birthplace at Glendinning at Westerkirk in the Dumfriesshire part of my constituency, it is taking place only a few hundred yards from his final resting place in Westminster Abbey—a mark of the esteem in which he is held and an honour bestowed on only one other civil engineer: Robert Stephenson, who pioneered the railways.”