Sir Stephen Timms
MP for East Ham · Labour · United Kingdom
“I agree with the hon. Gentleman. If he would like to send me details of that particular case, I will happily look into it. On the subject of people with hearing impairments, my right hon. Friend the Minister for Women and Equalities and I will be meeting the British Sign Language Advisory Board this afternoon.”
“Better outcomes require early identification and support for girls and young women with special educational needs, including dyslexia. That is the aim of the SEND reforms and the development of national inclusion standards.”
“Autistic people and people with ADHD have been struggling to get the right support at the right time. Recommendations from Professor Karen Guldberg’s neurodivergence task and finish group directly informed the SEND reforms that were published earlier this year.”
“The Equality Act 2010 places a duty on public bodies to make reasonable adjustments, so that disabled people are not put at a disadvantage by accessibility challenges.”
“The hon. Gentleman raises an important point. This benefit is there to contribute to the additional costs of disability. Too often, what has happened—my hon.”
“I think we can take the hon. Member’s question as a tacit recognition that in 14 years the previous Government should have done something to fix these problems. The steering group is clear that the provision of cash to meet the additional costs of disability is vital.”
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“The committee concluded that the standard on tools for live working is just not suitable for water-fed cleaning, because it is intended to cover tools used by people who have been trained in working on, or near, live electrical conductors in the electrical industry. Industry training is generally three to four years to become competent to work on live conductors. The committee’s view was that a water-fed pole is not a tool for live working, and that window cleaners should not be encouraged to carry out live working near a live electrical cable. On that basis, the industry experts on the committee and the BSI rejected the application. I note from the what the right hon. Gentleman has told us that the BSI may be looking at making a change to another standard.”
“I should perhaps also point out that the federation provides a training course on “Using water-fed poles and portable ladders”, which is approved by the Institution of Occupational Safety and Health. It is a one-day course, and it costs £175 plus VAT per person for members. The right hon. Member referred to the product introduced by Ionic Systems of Swindon. I know that Ionic Systems, in pursuing the case the right hon. Member set out this evening, met the relevant British Standards Institution committee, PEL/78, on 22 July this year to discuss including water-fed poles in standard BS8020 on tools for live working. The idea was to include fully insulated water-fed poles to avoid an incident like that which befell Jason Knight. As the right hon. Member said, the system uses de-ionised water, which will not conduct electricity.”
“If you are in any doubt about whether the lines in question are power or telephone (this is a very common mistake) always assume that they are power lines and are live.” It goes on: “It is not normally practical for electricity companies to shroud high voltage conductors and even when low voltage conductors are shrouded, the shrouding is not designed to protect against contact by Tools or Equipment—again, Keep your Distance! If unsure, always contact your local electricity network operators”. That is available on the website of the Federation of Window Cleaners. In the specific case of a 33 kV line, which the right hon. Member told us was the case here, the Energy Networks Association advises a clearance distance of 3 metres to be maintained.”
“The latter is called “Safe use of window cleaning equipment near overhead power lines” and it is jointly branded by the Energy Networks Association and the Federation of Window Cleaners. I just want to read part of what it says. I appreciate that this is no comfort to the right hon. Member’s constituent, but it may be helpful to others to quote from it: “Be aware of the dangers of working near or underneath Overhead Power Lines (OHPLs). Always assume they are live and beware that electricity can jump gaps. Plan ahead and note the location of OHPLs. Consider your position at ground and the extent of your equipment (i.e. Telescopic devices) and ensure that when extended it will not encroach or breach the exclusion zone as a minimum. Generally remain 5 metres away to be safe.”
“Enforcement of the duties in law is carried out by the HSE and by local authorities, which have powers to inspect workplaces, to investigate accidents and to take action to address non-compliance up to and including prosecution. To help employers comply with these duties, the HSE produces general guidance on a range of topics relevant to window cleaning, such as manual handling, control of hazardous substances, and slips and trips. In addition, guidance specific to working safely when cleaning windows is available from the window cleaning industry itself. That includes two pieces of guidance on the safe use of water-fed poles, produced in collaboration with the HSE, and guidance on the use of window cleaning equipment near overhead power lines, produced in collaboration with the Energy Networks Association.”
“As I have said, the self-employed are subject to those duties only where their activities place others at risk, but it is nevertheless a good idea to observe them. I understand that in the tragic accident we have heard about, as the right hon. Member has said, the power line was compliant with statutory clearance distances and those set out in industry guidance but the pole manufacturer’s guidance was to avoid touching overhead power lines, including by having a warning marked on the pole itself. From the account the right hon. Gentleman has given, my understanding is that the pole did not in this instance touch the overhead cable but got quite close to it without touching it.”
“If there are overhead power lines close to a property, the Electricity at Work Regulations 1989 would require a risk assessment to be carried out. If there is a danger of electrocution, the HSE advice is not to carry out the work on that part of the building or to find another method that reduces the risk, particularly one that does not involve water-fed poles. Other risks associated with water-fed poles, and window cleaning in general, include musculoskeletal injury from the handling of the pole, slips or trips, injury from falling poles, and the spread of Legionella from water systems. It is a legal duty under health and safety law for employers to identify and manage all those risks and, in doing so, to protect their workers and the public from harm.”
“Depending on the material and weight of the pole, they can cause back and shoulder injuries through continued use. There is often a balance to be struck between weight, reach and cost. Prices start at around £100 for a very basic, budget, short-reach pole but can be over £700 for high-reach ones, while mid-range poles cost around £200. I cannot comment on the efficacy of these poles for cleaning, but there obviously are safety benefits from using poles from the stable footing of a ground-level position, and certainly the view of the HSE is that they are safer than ladders. However, there are risks, and using a pole to carry out an activity at elevation in the presence of overhead power lines does carry the risk of electric shock, as the tragic experience that we have heard about underlines.”
“Over the last five years, falls from a height have caused 28% of all deaths at work, while contact with electricity or electrical discharge accounts for 5%—a significant proportion, but a good deal smaller. The HSE records for the last five years include eight incidents involving falls from height in which window cleaning was the main activity, and five of those resulted in fatal injuries, so the right hon. Gentleman is right to say that the use of poles has made this activity safer. Employers and self-employed people can eliminate the risk of a fall by removing the need to work at height, and here is the advantage of water-fed poles for cleaning windows. Poles can be designed to reach up to 25 metres in height and can be made from a variety of lightweight materials—the right hon. Gentleman mentioned a number of them.”
“The areas of focus in the legislation are those that self-employed people should give particular attention to when considering how to work safely. The Work at Height Regulations 2005 cover one of the most significant risks to people cleaning windows, because the vast majority of window cleaning obviously takes place above ground level. Working at height is always high risk. Whenever somebody leaves the ground to carry out an activity—up a ladder, on a platform, in a cradle—there is the potential for harm, most likely from a fall. The HSE’s recently published health and safety at work statistics reported that falls from a height continue to be the biggest type of fatal workplace accident, accounting for over a quarter of fatal injuries to people at work in 2024-25.”
“Act and the associated regulations, all employers undertaking window cleaning are required to identify risks to their workers and to the public from those activities, and to take action to manage those risks. Those who are self-employed, which, as the right hon. Member said, is most of the industry, are subject to these duties only where their activities place others at risk. Where self-employed window cleaners are not subject to the regulations, they nevertheless should obviously look after their own health and safety. They should check work locations for hazards such as overhead power lines and/or use safe equipment. One way of doing that is to carry out a fit-for-purpose assessment of the risks.”
“Act 1974 and a number of regulations, such as the Provision and Use of Work Equipment Regulations 1998, the Work at Height Regulations 2005, the Management of Health and Safety at Work Regulations 1999 and the Electricity at Work Regulations 1989. Section 6 of the 1974 Act places duties on the manufacturers of articles for use at work, including ensuring the equipment is designed and constructed so that it is, so far as reasonably practicable, safe when being set up and used; doing adequate research and testing to prove the safety of the equipment; and providing users with adequate information so that they can use the equipment safely. Under the Health and Safety at Work etc.”
“I am grateful to the right hon. Member for South West Wiltshire (Dr Murrison) for securing this debate on this important subject, and for his very thoughtful speech. The Government place a great deal of importance on workplace safety, and I want to seek to reassure him and the House that we have an effective regulatory framework in place to secure the health, safety and wellbeing of those who work in window cleaning. Let me also offer my sympathies to his constituent, who suffered those life-changing injuries that he described while cleaning windows at a regular customer’s home last year. I do hope he is receiving the support that he needs. Health and safety in window cleaning is covered by the Health and Safety at Work etc.”
“Changes announced at the Budget will improve value for money for taxpayers while ensuring that the Motability scheme continues to provide outstanding support for disabled people.”
“I do agree with my hon. Friend, and I would be happy to meet him. Motability is an important scheme that does an important job. Some tax reliefs will be removed in July. Existing leases will not be affected, and neither will wheelchair-adapted vehicles. There will still be vehicles, with no up-front payment, that are affordable solely through the mobility component of personal independence payment, so the scheme will continue to do a great job but will give better value for money for taxpayers.”
“Well, choosing the most misleading claim is a tough contest, but the hon. Gentleman is right. The shadow Secretary of State’s colleagues introduced PIP, with the current criteria, in 2013. They then had 11 years to change it if they thought doing so was necessary, but they did absolutely nothing. My review will look at the eligibility criteria for the mobility component of PIP.”
“Liz Sayce did an outstanding forensic job in getting to the bottom of the carer’s allowance overpayment problems. We have accepted or partially accepted 38 of her 40 recommendations. The Department will reassess overpayments incurred between 2015 and last summer where fluctuating earnings were an issue, and we will set out detailed plans in the new year.”
“My hon. Friend is a great campaigner for carers on this issue and others. She is absolutely right: this is a very serious problem that was ignored for 10 years, despite there being quite a lot of publicity about it. I hope, as she says, that trust will now be rebuilt as we fix these problems in the coming months.”
“The hon. Gentleman will know that the carer’s allowance has an earnings threshold, which we have increased very significantly—the biggest increase in the earnings threshold that there has ever been. We are also looking, in the longer term, at introducing a taper to carer’s allowance, instead of the cliff-edge earnings threshold that is still there at the moment. That will not be a quick fix, but once it is in place, I think it will help with the concern he raises.”
“I am very sorry about what happened to many carers. For example, only about half of the alerts that came into the Department from HMRC were checked, so overpayments that the Department had been notified of carried on for months and months. Of course, genuine overpayments do still need recovery and that work will continue. If people run into difficulties, it is always worth talking to the DWP debt management service.”
“The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions, my right hon. Friend the Member for Kingston upon Hull North and Cottingham (Dame Diana Johnson), just mentioned our Pathways to Work guarantee, which will offer everybody with health impairments on out-of-work benefits a support conversation to work out best next steps, one-to-one caseworker support for those ready to move towards work, specialist longer-term support for those who can benefit from that, and periodic engagement for those not yet ready to move towards work.”
“There is a great deal of work to be done: the disability employment gap has been stuck at around 30 percentage points ever since 2010. We have talked already today about Motability, which is key for enabling many disabled people to get to work. After the changes next July, there will still be a wide range of vehicles available in exchange solely for mobility benefit. Access to Work is also extremely important. We consulted earlier in the year through our Green Paper on reform to Access to Work, so that we can help and support more people, and we will be bringing forward proposals along those lines in the new year.”
“I am sure that the hon. Lady will be interested in the recent report published by the BSL Advisory Board, which works with the Government specifically on BSL. I met members of the board last week. They produced a report recently on access to health and care support, specifically highlighting some of these issues. For example, how do BSL users make GP appointments? The other steps that I have outlined today will also be important for deaf and disabled people, and we will continue to work closely with BSL Advisory Board on these issues.”
“As my hon. Friend says, it is against the law to impose age restrictions on jobs unless they can be objectively justified. The Equality Act 2010 provides legal redress. There is also practical help available through the Equality Advisory and Support Service, which his constituent should certainly give a call, and we have 50PLUS champions working across the whole of our jobcentre network.”
“I do not know what the hon. Gentleman is referring to. I will happily look into the report he has spoken of. There will be no changes at all to eligibility for personal independence payments until the conclusion of my review, which will be in the autumn of next year.”
“In April, there will be a permanent real-terms increase in the headline rate of out-of-work benefits for the first time, I think, since the 1970s. We are taking £150 on average off household energy bills, expanding the £150 warm home discount to 6 million lower-income households, and freezing NHS prescription charges for a year.”
“Whether people get PIP is not about whether they can work—they may be working or not. The limited capability for work-related activity part of universal credit is about whether or not a person can work, but I will be very happy to have a conversation with the hon. Lady about what has happened.”
“Yes, I do. We want a more inclusive society where neurodivergent people, including those with dyspraxia, are supported to thrive. We are working across Government to support earlier intervention in schools, including through the partnerships for inclusion of neurodiversity in schools programme, and the special educational needs and disabilities reforms coming forward in the new year, but we are also, beyond education, taking a wider view of how we ensure people with conditions such as dyspraxia are not held back.”
“I have read somewhere that the list of things the hon. Lady has gone through would, the Conservatives estimate, save £23 billion. Part of that is from housing benefit. Can she tell us how much of the £23 billion would be saved from housing benefit?”
“That is why they left behind, as the shadow Secretary of State said, nearly a million young people not in education, employment or training, and 2.8 million people economically inactive through long-term ill health. We are determined to put those failures right.”
“I enjoyed listening to the shadow Secretary of State’s fierce critique of the state of the benefits system that was left behind after 14 years of Tory government. She made some good points about it. By contrast, this Government are building a welfare system that is proactive and pro-work, has opportunity at its heart, and will change lives for the better—in rather the way she suggested that the system needs. For every person we can help into good work, it will mean a better life for them and better mental health and finances. It will be better for the public purse as well. Getting people off welfare and into work requires an active approach, and we do have a plan. The system left behind by the last Government of passive benefit processing was simply not up to the job.”
“My hon. Friend is absolutely right. The disability employment gap fell steadily under the previous Labour Government, but it has been stuck at about 30% ever since 2010. There was one moment in those 14 long years of Tory rule when it looked as though they planned to do something about it. In the middle of the 2015 general election campaign, David Cameron announced a target of halving the disability employment gap. It was like they suddenly woke up at that moment, but as soon as that election had been safely won, they scrapped the target. They just went back to passive benefit processing again.”
“Yes, I can. I will come on to talk about that in a couple of minutes. In contrast to the passive approach of the last Government, we will be active. We are investing in and joining up work, health and skills support. We have brought adult skills and apprenticeships, further education, training and careers into the DWP so that we are better able to give people the skills to thrive in today’s economy and to enable them to move into good secure jobs.”
“We will open up more opportunities for people who have been out of work because of ill health in the past with WorkWell employment advisers embedded directly in healthcare teams, from GP surgeries to mental health services.”
“The hon. Gentleman makes another interesting reflection on the state of the system left behind by 14 years of Tory government. We are going to be making progress, as I said. Our plan will help deliver our ambition not just for jobs but for national renewal by building new homes, making the NHS fit for the future and powering the shift to green energy. Among people of working age, those with low or no qualifications are some 2.5 times more likely to be out of work than those who are better qualified. Just closing that gap would mean a million extra people in work. But skills are not the only barrier; for many, it is ill health, and we are determined to get people back to work and back to good health.”
“I will make a bit more headway first. Connect to Work will go to the end of the decade to support 300,000 disabled people and people with health and other complex barriers to employment to get into and get on in work. Our Pathways to Work guarantee, backed by an additional £1 billion a year by the end of the decade, will bring all that together with personalised work, health and skills support for anybody on out-of-work benefits with a health condition or disability who wants that support. We already have 1,000 new Pathways to Work advisers in place, working in jobcentres across the country to help disabled people. A few weeks ago I met a couple of them in Edinburgh, and they told me of the positive reactions from the people they ring up. The system gave up on those people years ago, but we have not given up on them.”
“As the Chancellor announced last month, learning from the success of Labour’s future jobs scheme, that will include a jobs guarantee. Our youth guarantee trailblazers are up and running, innovating and testing out the best ways to join up support and make the most of young people’s talent and potential, from mental health support to flexible work experience sessions. Those trailblazers will inform the national roll-out of the guarantee so that everybody has the chance to start off their working lives on the right foot. We are reforming jobcentres by introducing the jobs and careers service: a universal service, moving away from one-size-fits-all and offering much more personalised support. We are also testing changes to the claimant commitment as we look to free up work coaches.”
“This active approach is particularly important for young people, as the shadow Secretary of State suggested in her opening remarks. After 14 years, so many were left not in employment, education or training, and being out of work for a long time at the start of what should be working life does long-term damage to their health, earnings potential and prospects. There are obviously consequences for the social security system as well. If we do not get somebody on a productive path early on, it can be really hard to change course further down the line, so we are expanding the number of youth hubs, partnering with sports clubs to get help to people in the community and developing a youth guarantee to ensure that 18 to 21-year-olds are earning or learning.”
“The hon. Gentleman raises a good, practical point. Quite a lot of GP surgeries certainly do have space and welcome work coaches or an adviser on to the premises, but he is right that that does not work everywhere, so we need to be flexible and have a local approach for each area. That is what Connect to Work will deliver. We also need to stop people from falling out of work unnecessarily in the first place due to ill health. Stopping work is often not in the interests of either the employee or the employer, but far too often it happens by default. Therefore, Sir Charlie Mayfield has been leading the Keep Britain Working review on how Government and businesses can work together for more inclusive, healthier workplaces. He will report his findings very soon.”
“Some people will remember that I took the Child Poverty Act 2010 through Parliament, with all-party support at the time. It was quickly scrapped by the coalition Government and the number of children growing up in poverty has gone up by 900,000 since then. Welfare spending has also rocketed. Reducing both child poverty and welfare spending are not opposites.”
“I do envisage that, as people get back to work, there will be savings on social security. I think we will see at the Budget projections from the Office for Budget Responsibility of future moves into employment as a result of the changes that we are making, and savings will certainly arise. We want our work coaches, as the right hon. Gentleman has just pointed out, to spend less time on bureaucracy and more time on what they do best, which is giving people the benefit of their expertise and helping people move closer to work. Good work will also be a key part of the child poverty strategy, which we will bring forward by the end of the year. We will tackle child poverty by increasing family incomes, reducing family costs, building financial resilience and improving local support.”
“It will be an ambitious strategy and in developing it we will consider all the levers available to give every child the best start in life. To make work pay: that was what universal credit was intended to do. Yet it was left with perverse disincentives to work in the system, forcing people, as many did, to aspire to be classified as sick in order to qualify for a higher payment. We have addressed that by rebalancing the payments in universal credit, alongside other reforms. The system should not force people to aspire to be classified as sick; it should promote and encourage work and provide support to make work feasible. As the shadow Secretary of State kindly mentioned, we are progressing the review, which I am responsible for.”
“My hon. Friend is absolutely right. That is a welcome and much-needed step. The early years are crucial to somebody’s life chances. Ensuring that children grow up happy, healthy and able to fulfil their potential is certainly, to borrow a phrase from the motion, “a moral mission”. However, it is also about reducing demand on social security, instead of sitting on our hands like the last Government and leaving the system to pick up higher costs further down the line. The child poverty strategy will build on our cross-Government approach to lifting people out of poverty through rolling out free breakfast clubs, raising the national minimum wage and, as my hon. Friend the Member for York Outer (Mr Charters) points out, expanding free childcare and free school meals to all families on universal credit.”
“I will make a little more headway. The review will be co-produced with disabled people, to ensure that the system supports disabled people to achieve better health, higher living standards and greater independence, including through work. We will also carry out more face-to-face assessments over the next year, boosting the number of health professionals working in assessment centres. Face-to-face assessments were stopped for understandable reasons during the pandemic, but they were never really brought back. The places where they were carried out were sold off and we are having to reinstate and rebuild that service.”
“That is needed, given that on the previous Government’s watch, in 2023-24, fraud against the public sector stood at an estimated £55 billion. In the same year, benefit fraud alone was £7.3 billion. There is a lot to be done.”
“We have made major changes in the Universal Credit Act 2025, which will take effect in April of next year. We are making the changes that are needed. Lastly, when building a more active welfare system, we need to ensure that every penny we spend goes on the support that it is designed to provide. That is why the Public Authorities (Fraud, Error and Recovery) Bill is working its way back through this House under the guidance of the Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions, my hon. Friend the Member for Stretford and Urmston (Andrew Western), as we speak. In that Bill, there are new powers for the Department to tackle fraud and error, so that we can realise £1.5 billion in benefits by 2029-30. Those are among wider measures that we expect will save £9.6 billion over the same period.”
“It is vital that we make sure that those in real need do not miss out, and I can reassure the hon. Lady that I am in fairly regular contact with her colleague in the Northern Ireland Assembly. These are certainly things that the two Governments need to discuss.”
“We are investing in success, in work, in health, and in skills support to provide hope for a better future. We are actively helping people along their own path to work, and creating an opportunity welfare state. We have made a great start, but there is a huge amount still to do, and I welcome this chance to seek the House’s support for our mission.”
“I am going to make a bit more progress. We have seen what happens when social security is not managed properly. We have seen the consequences for child poverty and for the many thousands denied the opportunity to work—people who want to work, and who could work, with the right support. We are taking action now to give people the best chances in life, so that they can support themselves and their family. We are delivering on our plan to make work pay, including by removing the work disincentives from universal credit. We are joining up support, so that people get proper help into work. We are giving children and young people the best possible start in life and are setting them up to succeed in future. Unlike the previous Government, we are not resigned to failure.”
“Access to Work does an important job, but current delays with the scheme, and our ambition for an 80% rate of employment, point to the need for reform. The consultation, launched in the “Pathways to Work” Green Paper, closed on 30 June. We are reviewing all aspects of the scheme in the light of the responses that we received.”