John McDonnell
MP for Hayes and Harlington · Labour · United Kingdom
“It is not a laughing matter—I am sorry for interrupting the flow of the discussion. It would be useful if the review looked at NATS’s long-term investment plans, particularly since its partial privatisation in 2001, which I opposed. I thank the Minister for meeting Unite this morning and thanking the workers, who have worked so hard.”
“On a number of occasions, I have raised the case of Lee Cheuk-yan, who many Labour Members will remember was the general secretary of the Hong Kong Confederation of Trade Unions and founder of the Labour party in Hong Kong. He was detained during the democracy movement five years ago.”
“I thank the Minister for his statement. NATS used to be in my constituency and then moved down to Swanwick. Of course, with Heathrow in my constituency, I receive—as I mentioned yesterday—a large amount of correspondence from a whole range of other MPs’ constituents, who think I am responsible for Heathrow airport.”
“I fully agree, and let me also say that wheelchair compensation is significant in this legislation. Most of us have dealt with cases like that. Going back to accountability in the process, a number of different organisations have provided us with notes on the legislation.”
“I apologise to my right hon. Friend; I should have checked this before the debate. The proposed new section 61G refers to priorities and objectives of the Secretary of State, which include a requirement for the Secretary of State to issue a document setting out those priorities and objectives for the CAA.”
“At the moment, when people in my constituency are faced with these problems, they do not know where to go; it is as simple as that. Finally, the debate that we will have on Heathrow expansion and the new policy statement will be interesting, given that we do not know what the flight paths will be. If I was a constituent of my hon.”
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“I have not yet received a response. To be brutally frank, it is not clear that any serious steps have been taken to alert the Egyptian Government to the fact that Britain was expecting Alaa to be released on that date. It is still unclear whether the Government have changed their approach to the case since the date passed—”
“Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon), I call upon the Foreign Secretary to stay true to his words and to see through some of the actions that he outlined in 2022. He knew then, as is evident, that a strategy based solely on raising the case in meetings will not secure Alaa’s release. Ahead of 29 September, when Alaa was supposed to be released, multiple Members of this House wrote to the Foreign Secretary, alerting him to the end of Alaa’s sentence and asking him to ensure that appropriate action was taken. Just days before the 29th, the Foreign Secretary was pictured smiling with his Egyptian counterpart. On 21 November, our Prime Minister was photographed shaking hands with President Sisi. On 25 November, I tabled a question on whether the Prime Minister had raised Alaa’s case with the President on that occasion.”
“The Foreign Secretary has been a supporter of the campaign. He was alongside Alaa’s sisters during their sit-in outside the Foreign Office and publicly described Alaa as a “courageous voice for democracy in Egypt”. As shadow Foreign Secretary, he outlined a series of practical suggestions for getting Alaa back to the UK, which included leveraging our substantive trade relations with Egypt, restricting the access of the Egyptian ambassador and pausing new strategic partnerships with the Egyptian Government until Alaa’s case was resolved. The only relevant detail that has changed since the Foreign Secretary made those remarks as shadow Foreign Secretary is that Alaa’s sentence has now ended, but he remains in prison. Like the hon.”
“They have cause to believe that as the Egyptian Government have repeatedly engaged in a practice they call “case recycling”, which is when new cases are brought against prisoners approaching the end of their sentence. According to human rights organisations such as the Cairo Institute for Human Rights Studies, in 2023 at least 251 defendants were rotated to new cases. In 2022, another 620 defendants were treated in the same way. Alaa’s family began to lose faith in the previous Government, with Ministers seemingly unwilling to take any action on his case beyond simply raising it with their Egyptian counterparts. While that was going on, we witnessed the Government seeking ever-closer economic ties with the Egyptian Government. The election of a Labour Government gave Alaa’s family a renewed sense of hope.”
“You got me on that one, Madam Deputy Speaker. Hands up. I will hand myself in later. Our former Prime Minister the right hon. Member for Richmond and Northallerton (Rishi Sunak) wrote to Alaa’s family before travelling to Egypt. He said that “the government is deeply committed to doing everything we can to resolve Alaa's case as soon as possible”. Despite that commitment, two years on from COP, Alaa’s family have nothing to show for the UK Government’s efforts to secure his release. If this new arbitrary extension of Alaa’s sentence is allowed to pass without intervention from the British authorities, his family fear, as many of us do, that he will never be released.”
“I hope the Government will grasp the urgency and seriousness of the situation, especially in the context of a 68-year-old woman on hunger strike whose life is at risk, and take the action necessary to see Alaa released hopefully in time to spend Christmas with his son in Brighton. I would like to end by sending a message from this House to Alaa, echoing his own words back to him from the title of his book: “You have not yet been defeated”. I say to Alaa: you have not been, and we will not let you be, defeated. We will secure your release.”
“How is it right that he continues to be allowed access to the highest levels of our Government while refusing to allow British officials in Cairo to do their job under the Vienna convention on consular relations? I wrote to the Egyptian ambassador—I hope he received my email—in the hope that we would receive some positive message from him before the debate, and we could break the good news that the Egyptian Government had decided to release Alaa. I have received no response whatsoever. I have outlined some of the measures that the Government could take to make it clear to Egypt that the refusal to recognise Alaa’s British nationality and the failure to recognise and respect its own laws on time served will have serious consequences for the bilateral relationship.”
“In recent days, we have also seen new research from the Campaign Against Arms Trade, exposing the fact that Britain has sold more than £200 million of arms licences to Egypt while Alaa remains in prison. That included the largest ever single arms licence on record from Britain to Egypt, worth nearly £80 million, for military radars in December 2023. That is further evidence of the depth of the relationship between the UK and Egypt that can and should be leveraged. It goes without saying that no such deals of that kind must be pursued by the new Government while a British citizen is imprisoned. As the Foreign Secretary previously suggested, there should be diplomatic consequences for the Egyptian ambassador.”
“Changing the travel advice to reflect the reality of the situation would demonstrate to the Egyptians that our Government are taking Alaa’s detention seriously. We know the Egyptian Government are seeking an increase in British investment into Egypt. We should be clear and announce a moratorium on any new trade agreements with Egypt until Alaa is free. Last month, 15 non-governmental organisations, including the Committee to Protect Journalists, FairSquare and the Global Magnitsky Justice Campaign asked the British Government to put on hold any new Government assistance or promotion of new foreign direct investments into Egypt until Alaa was free.”
“We expected a significant change of approach from the last Government because the previous methods failed, so I would welcome an update from the Minister to the House on whether their approach has changed. There are a series of steps the Government could take that would see Alaa reunited with his family, and especially with his son. The Minister should change the travel advice for Egypt on the Foreign Office’s website to reflect the reality of the moment: that if a person is arrested in Egypt, the Government cannot guarantee even consular access. The United States provides that advice to its citizens—why do we not? Last year saw a record number of British holidaymakers go to Egypt, a country where tourism is a significant part of the economy.”
“I want to make it explicit that nobody who has raised this case wants to prevent the UK Government from providing aid and assistance, particularly given the issues that are happening to the Palestinians in Gaza—we are certainly not asking for that. What we are asking for relates to the relationship on trade and on arms sales. I believe there is potential leverage in those areas to enable us to secure Alaa’s release. In addition, the relationship with the Egyptian ambassador also gives us the opportunity to exercise some leverage. Those are the activities that we would like the Government to pursue.”
“The Minister is coming to a conclusion. Can we have an assurance that we will receive a report to the House in the coming month about the effectiveness of the actions the Government have taken in securing Alaa’s release?”
“I would not want to see a destabilisation of the country as a result of a reactionary Government taking these measures. From my understanding, people are on the edge—they have had enough—and unfortunately the response from the Pakistani Government does not suggest that they will reconsider their strategy of repressive measures.”
“A crudity about that is that it involves “find and dump”—the only way in which people who disappear are found is when their bodies are dumped on the streets in that region. The forms of repression taking place in Balochistan are producing a resistance movement. Unfortunately, some of that is armed resistance, and we have seen what are being classified as terrorist actions, so there is a deterioration. However, there is also a peace movement, which is largely led by women. They have been instigating marches over the past 12 months. Unfortunately, they are now being arrested and the peace and human rights movement in Balochistan is being savagely repressed. If we are taking up these issues of religious freedom, we should extend consideration to the whole range of human rights abuses taking place in Pakistan.”
“A second point that might be provocative is that we must consider the funding of the organisations campaigning for human rights in Pakistan and internationally, so that we can strengthen their arm in advocating on behalf of the Ahmadiyya community. That is my position on the Ahmadiyya community. I will slightly abuse the scope of the debate if I may, Madam Deputy Speaker. Human rights abuses in Pakistan have worsened in this recent period, not just for Ahmadiyyas but for others. At the moment, severe repression is taking place in Balochistan. There is a history in the last year, and in the recent months in particular, of repression among the Baloch. The Pakistani authorities have introduced a strategy of disappearances. Large numbers of people have simply disappeared.”
“In fact, many of them will be using their resources via investment vehicles in this country. I feel that we need to take a stronger view and stronger action than we have in the past, because the situation has deteriorated. Another issue, which we have raised before, is that although we provide a fair amount of aid and assistance to Pakistan—that is fine; I completely understand that—it is important that that aid is not abused. For example, the Pakistani Government nationalised Ahmadiyya schools and have never returned them to the community. We fund education in Pakistan, so we need to be conditional about how that investment in education is made.”
“It is key now that we mobilise pressure as much as we can to influence the Pakistani Government to scrap the blasphemy laws being used so ferociously against the Ahmadiyya community and others. Let me say something that might prove contentious for some. I think we now need to think about going beyond that. There are individuals in Pakistan, within the Administration and the security forces, who we can now identify as leading on some of these human rights abuses, and I wonder whether we should treat them as human rights abusers, as we would others from other countries. That would mean naming and shaming, of course, but also instigating some form of sanctions against them. Most of those individuals have a relationship with this country in one form or another.”
“Publications are banned, and to be able to vote, Ahmadis are placed on a separate list—in fact, many of them are disenfranchised as a result. In the past, when we have raised those matters in debates, in this Chamber and in Westminster Hall, Governments of all political complexions have made representations. At times there has been some alleviation because the world has focused its attention on Pakistan’s behaviour, but the reports that we get show that recently things have been getting dramatically worse. That is why we need some action from our Government. I agree with the hon. Gentleman about the need to work through international agencies to shine a light on what is happening and make representations.”
“As he says, just describing oneself as a member of the Ahmadiyya community is an offence under the penal law in Pakistan. Doing so can result in a three-year term of imprisonment, a fine, or even death. In addition, if people call their place of worship a mosque, or their call to prayer—the adhan—goes out, they can be prosecuted under that penal code, which is appalling. The briefing that the all-party parliamentary group received recently highlighted that the situation has got significantly worse this year. In the briefing, we were told that at least four people had been murdered because of their religion. We also had a list with a number of people who had been arrested and imprisoned for their religion. In prison, their situation is extremely precarious; there are also worries about torture.”
“I congratulate the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) on securing the debate and thank the Backbench Business Committee, through which he secured it. I also congratulate him on this upgrade from Westminster Hall to the main Chamber—some argue that Westminster Hall should be renamed the “Shannon debating forum.” I will take up the hon. Gentleman’s point, as I am sure others will, about the Ahmadiyya community. Like other Members in the Chamber, I have an Ahmadiyya community in my constituency. They operate under the slogan of “Love for all, hatred for none.” We saw that campaign on our London buses at one point a few years ago. They relate to me exactly what the hon. Gentleman described: distressing tales of what is happening to their community in Pakistan.”
“I completely understand and appreciate what the Foreign Secretary has said about maintaining a relationship with Egypt because of the issue in Gaza, but the reality is that Mr el-Fattah’s family has suffered enough, and President Sisi will move only if there is an economic threat. Therefore, after the Foreign Secretary meets the family tomorrow, can I ask him to contact the President’s office to make absolutely clear that our economic relationship will suffer unless this British citizen is released?”
“The PCS parliamentary group would welcome a meeting with her to talk through the roll-out of this programme, which will benefit both the staff and the recipients of their services.”
“Given the empty Opposition Benches, it looks like the Conservative party has adopted a policy of a three or two-day week to tackle the unemployment problem. I refer to my entry in the Register of Members’ Financial Interests as chair of the Public and Commercial Services Union parliamentary group. From the tone taken and the statement given today, my understanding is that the Government acknowledge that it will be support, not sanctions, that will tackle this issue overall, and that that support will come from new employment centres in our constituencies, staffed by fully trained, motivated and well-paid staff. The Secretary of State mentioned meeting businesses and mayors. May I ask that she also meets the trade unions?”
“I say this to my hon. Friend as constructively as I possibly can: a number of us have sat here for months and have asked questions about sanctions, but the response from Ministers has been to say, “We cannot comment on sanctions in the House.” Not only does that render sanctions ineffective, but it breaks down the accountability of Ministers to this House. We deserve a better statement than that. On the legal process, my hon. Friend has rightly said that we will respect international law and comply with the International Criminal Court’s jurisdiction and decisions. If I have got the wording right, he said that it will be for the domestic legal processes involved. Where does physical arrest come within that domestic legal process?”
“We also recognise that words have not been good enough to protect the Palestinian people or to move the situation towards a ceasefire. That is why I have come to the conclusion that our Government must lead on the boycott, divestment and sanctions movement. We have the potential to unite a whole range of countries across the globe—in the global south as well as across Europe—in taking serious action on BDS. We will have a meeting on Saturday morning in my community, where we will look at how we can undertake sanctions locally. Our local shops did a boycott on Israeli goods last time this situation occurred, and that is what we will be developing.”
“Friend the Member for Coventry South (Zarah Sultana) may raise this point as well, but members of the Fire Brigades Union have raised funds and provided a fire and rescue vehicle for use in Palestine to enable people to be saved and rescued from the rubble of the bombings. The Israeli Government have prevented that vehicle from being delivered. I urge the Government to intervene to ensure that it is. Thirdly, the world has changed with the election of Donald Trump. Certainly the direction of travel has changed with regard to Netanyahu and his colleagues in the Cabinet. They believe that they have permission to annex all of Palestine, and that they can act with complete impunity now that Donald Trump has been elected. The onus therefore falls upon the shoulders of our Government to be the leaders seeking peace in the world.”
“I want to make three brief points. First, my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow West (Patricia Ferguson) raised the issue of the children who have been seriously injured in Gaza and the west bank. I think this is the ninth occasion on which I have raised the same issue, either in debates or in correspondence. It would be helpful to have a response from the Minister, who has looked at the progress on developing the scheme we have been recommending, based on the Ukrainian scheme, to get children here for treatment. There has been a willingness from a number of clinicians in this country to facilitate that. Secondly, my hon.”
“I can see no other option now. We have tried everything else. We have tried dialogue. We have tried pressure. We have tried to form alliances and to support progressive forces within Israel itself. All of that has failed. I think someone mentioned that every night, we come home and we watch children dying in front of our eyes on television. I think there is nothing else, so I urge the Government to rethink their strategy and become the leaders in the BDS movement across Europe and the global south, because that is the only way we will be able to shift this Israeli Government away from murdering more of the people in Palestine.”
“May I ask the Government to raise her case, and particularly the need for her to have visits from her family and her trade union rep, so that we can impress upon the Chinese Government that, in addition to our lobbying for her release, we need to ensure that there is humanitarian treatment of such prisoners?”
“I look forward to the Minister’s report on the audit of the relationship with China and of the continuum of actions, from sanctions onwards, that the Government are looking at. In the meantime, may I ask the Minister to raise with the Chinese Government the case of Carol Ng Man-yee, who is a colleague of mine in Unite and a Labour party member? She was involved in organising for Unite in the disputes with British Airways over the years, and she became president of the Hong Kong Confederation of Trade Unions. She stood in the primaries and lost, but then took no further action. She was sentenced to four years and five months.”
“As of close of play today, we have not received a response. Through you, Madam Deputy Speaker, could I urge the Foreign Secretary to respond and, more importantly, take action? I am now fearful for the life of Laila, Mr el-Fattah’s mother, because as I said, the hunger strike has entered its 50th day.”
“On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. I apologise for raising a point of order out of sequence, and I will explain why I am doing so. It relates to the case of Mr Alaa Abd el-Fattah and a point of order that I raised over a week ago. Some Members may recall that he is a British citizen who was imprisoned for his human rights campaigning in Egypt. He has served his sentence of five years and should have been released in September, but was not. His mother, a well-known academic at Cairo University, has been on hunger strike for 50 days. Anyone who has had any experience of hunger strikes knows that this is a critical period. A number of us wrote to the Foreign Secretary over 10 days ago about this case, urging him to make further representations to the Egyptian Administration to secure Mr el-Fattah’s release.”
“On a point of order, Mr Speaker. Have you received any notice of a statement from the Government? I know that a number of Members have written to the Foreign Secretary, in particular, about the case of the writer and human rights activist Alaa Abd el-Fattah, who has served five years in an Egyptian prison for organising human rights protests. He was meant to be released in September but has still not been. His mother, Laila, has now been on hunger strike for four weeks, and many of us are concerned about the risk to her life. If a statement is not forthcoming, perhaps those on the Treasury Bench could urge the Government to make firm representations to Egypt to release Mr Abd el-Fattah.”
“For someone who is an unpaid carer in this country at the moment, whether they are looking after someone who is sick or a child with a terminal diagnosis, they have almost certainly been thrust to the edge of poverty, because the carer’s allowance is so little. That causes untold worry and stress for those parents, which is unnecessary. We will see what happens in the Budget today, but I put in a plea and hope that the Government will address the carer’s allowance. It needs a dramatic uplift, which would help to alleviate some of the stress and pressures placed on parents looking after children with a terminal diagnosis.”
“Another petition has been raised as well, by Corin Dalby, who wrote to me, calling for £100 million of the money that is raised in fines by the Financial Conduct Authority to be transferred to hospice funding. I think that is worth looking at to fill a short-term gap in the coming period, but the long-term issue is exactly as my hon. Friend the Member for Mitcham and Morden said: we need a comprehensive plan. We accept that that could be a 10-year plan, but people want security over time. I want to see that money integrated into Government funding. Of course, charities raise funds, but additional funds—overall, I think it has to be core funding. I want to make one final point. I chair a group of unpaid carers, and have done so for the past two years.”
“Friend, has nearly raised the money, but I want the message to get out there: we are not yet over the line, and we need it for such a valuable resource. I also congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Mitcham and Morden (Dame Siobhain McDonagh) for her work in the all-party group for children who need palliative care. She and Lord Balfe met the Minister, and I believe it was a helpful ministerial meeting. I reiterate the requests that she made of the Minister: the idea of at least extending the £25 million is key, and ensuring that it is ringfenced. It is not that we do not trust the ICBs—eventually they will get into action and will be geared up—but if the money goes directly to them, this will be compete against their other priorities and it is difficult to see how it could be maintained and secure for the future.”
“I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool West Derby (Ian Byrne) not just on securing the debate, but on his work over the past couple of months or so on raising the funds for Zoe’s Place. He rounded up every Scouser he knew, including those of us who live in exile, and asked them to contribute in some way. My contribution, to which my hon. Friend made reference, was to do a rendition of “You’ll Never Walk Alone” on the trombone— [ Interruption. ] “Oh dear”, I agree, but let us be charitable about this. The video was used to say, “If you don’t pay the money, we will keep on playing it.” My brother Brian, an ardent Liverpool supporter, contacted me to ask, “Why were you playing ‘Three Blind Mice’?” This man, my hon.”
“The irony in all this is that, as prisoners tell us, it is not just the individual who is serving the sentence; it is their family as well. It is their children, their mothers, their fathers: their whole family is destroyed as a result. So for God’s sake—for humanity’s sake—let us address this matter now and let us do it as a matter of urgency.”
“As a result, we might give some justice to those people who have suffered such significant injustice. We have had many cases before us where someone has committed a relatively minor crime and been sentenced to a year in prison, but 10 years later they are still inside. Many of these people are serving between 10 and 18 years, having been sentenced only up to four years for a crime they committed. We have a responsibility on our shoulders to honour the recommendations from the Justice Committee—recommendations that that its members worked so hard on—and to implement them. There is a sense of urgency about this. I do not want to be here in six or 12 months’ time saying that we have lost more prisoners as a result of self-harm and suicide. What has happened to the families?”
“It isn’t just me who thinks that; David Blunkett, who brought these measures in, said—if I remember rightly—that the situation was a stain upon our justice system and that there needed to be action. I commended the last Government when they reformed the licensing arrangements, and that move has benefited some people, but it has been of no benefit whatsoever to the 2,734 that are still locked away. What we expect from this Government—our Government, I have to say to the Minister—is a programme of work that takes the Justice Committee’s recommendations and looks at the practical action that needs to be taken to achieve them. Part of that could be the Imprisonment for Public Protection (Re-sentencing) Bill, which Tony Woodley has brought forward and for which I think there would be overwhelming support in this House.”
“The Justice Committee considered the issue from a political perspective, asking, “How can we manage this?” The idea was to go through that process, to ensure that there is support and preparation for rehabilitation and release; and that there is professional expertise, brought together on a panel, to examine case-by-case what needs to be put in place to secure the release of these prisoners so that they are safe and society is safe. Give Bob Neill his due—he worked really hard on a cross-party basis to achieve consensus among the Committee on a contentious issue; and the justice unions group and the POA completely endorsed and advocated its recommendations. By refusing to act on those Justice Committee recommendations, which are so reasonable, the state is committing a crime and perpetrating an injustice against these individuals.”
“Friend the Member for Southgate and Wood Green said, His Majesty’s inspectorate of probation made clear recommendations about its concerns for these prisoners, and the Justice Committee set out a whole series of recommendations that I believe overcome the doubts that have been put forward by successive Government Ministers and which I hope we do not hear today. Ministers’ fear that if we release any of these prisoners and something goes wrong, the Government will get the blame.”
“People see no hope in their future; they are the most insecure prisoners. Many prisoners I have dealt with know their sentence and know what they have to do to get out, and they do their best. There are others who think they will never get out, but at least they know the situation. With IPP prisoners, there is an uncertainty, which contributes to that lack of hope. Professional prison officers from the Prison Officers’ Association tell us clearly that it is almost impossible to help or manage these prisoners because they have no hope. They lose confidence in whatever rehabilitation scheme they have been placed on, because every time they go on them, they are still not released. As a result, they are simply returned to despair. As my hon.”
“I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Southgate and Wood Green (Bambos Charalambous) for securing this debate. I think I have attended every one of these debates over a number of years. I declare an interest: I am an honorary life member of the Prison Officers’ Association and a member of the justice unions parliamentary group, which contains the probation officers, the prison officers, PCS, representing the civil service, and others dealing with this issue. Here is the tragedy: after every debate, expectations are raised that perhaps there will be some Government movement, but there has not been, so we have lost more lives and many more people have self-harmed. The briefing from the wonderful UNGRIPP shows that in 2023 there were 1,866 self-harm incidents among IPP prisoners. As my hon. Friend said, there have been 90 suicides.”
“I do not want to disagree with my hon. Friend, but that is a distorted reading of the Justice Committee report. It actually saw resentencing as enabling a refocusing on these particular prisoners, and an expert panel was to be involved to ensure that there was not a mass release in that way; there would be a staggered release, with all the expertise and support available. I think that the Minister has misread the Justice Committee report and should revisit it.”
“This debate has been helpful in expressing the concerns that people have. I am worried that we have been in this situation many times before, relying on an action plan that is never implemented effectively. I hope the Minister is saying that this one will be, but I must say that I have some scepticism, given the resources within the prison network and system at the moment. It is worth revisiting the discussion about the Justice Committee recommendations. Will he meet with a number of us from both Houses to talk through those and see whether, as we monitor this action plan, we can actually prepare a fall-back if it does not work?”
“Will she go back and consult her colleagues, and come forward with a series of actions that will have some effect in saving lives in Gaza?”
“Friend, for whom I have a great deal of respect because we have worked with each other over the years—is that: on sanctions, there will be no additional sanctions, we are just reviewing them; on arms, we will continue to supply the parts for the F-35; on trade, which was raised, the trade negotiations will just continue; and on diplomacy, we will allow to remain in this country without any consequence the Israeli ambassador, who is an advocate of a greater Israel and therefore opposed to the UN position on a Palestinian state and a two-state solution. Does my right hon. Friend not realise that the message to the Netanyahu Government will be that nothing will happen during the window of opportunity and that they will be able to act with impunity still?”
“If I have the Government’s argument correct, it is that there is a window of opportunity now between the decision by the Israeli Parliament and the implementation of the measure by the Israeli Government. Yesterday, I think it was the right hon. Member for North West Hampshire (Kit Malthouse) who raised the question of what the consequence would be for the Israeli Government if they went ahead to implementation. The message today—I say this with regret to my right hon.”
“I declare an interest: I am the honorary life president of the Prison Officers Association. I thank the Secretary of State on behalf of the POA for her open-door policy on engagement with the union. I congratulate her on bringing forward the sentencing review. The POA has long argued that there are too many people in prison, in particular with mental health problems. They include veterans with post-traumatic stress disorder who should not be there, but should be treated elsewhere. Will she ensure that the unions are fully involved in deciding on the composition of the panel and the engagement process for the review?”