John McDonnell
MP for Hayes and Harlington · Labour · United Kingdom
“It is not a laughing matter—I am sorry for interrupting the flow of the discussion. It would be useful if the review looked at NATS’s long-term investment plans, particularly since its partial privatisation in 2001, which I opposed. I thank the Minister for meeting Unite this morning and thanking the workers, who have worked so hard.”
“On a number of occasions, I have raised the case of Lee Cheuk-yan, who many Labour Members will remember was the general secretary of the Hong Kong Confederation of Trade Unions and founder of the Labour party in Hong Kong. He was detained during the democracy movement five years ago.”
“I thank the Minister for his statement. NATS used to be in my constituency and then moved down to Swanwick. Of course, with Heathrow in my constituency, I receive—as I mentioned yesterday—a large amount of correspondence from a whole range of other MPs’ constituents, who think I am responsible for Heathrow airport.”
“I fully agree, and let me also say that wheelchair compensation is significant in this legislation. Most of us have dealt with cases like that. Going back to accountability in the process, a number of different organisations have provided us with notes on the legislation.”
“I apologise to my right hon. Friend; I should have checked this before the debate. The proposed new section 61G refers to priorities and objectives of the Secretary of State, which include a requirement for the Secretary of State to issue a document setting out those priorities and objectives for the CAA.”
“At the moment, when people in my constituency are faced with these problems, they do not know where to go; it is as simple as that. Finally, the debate that we will have on Heathrow expansion and the new policy statement will be interesting, given that we do not know what the flight paths will be. If I was a constituent of my hon.”
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“Furthermore, it is not something that we should be seeking to facilitate even further by putting forward this limited partnership proposal. The concern is that if such a company is willing to operate from a tax haven to avoid taxation, it is quite likely and quite able to walk away more easily from the liabilities on risks if any venture becomes problematic in the future. Again, it provides us with another example of questionable judgment by TfL. Going into a partnership with a company that is based in a tax haven and that is seeking to avoid its taxation responsibilities does not inspire confidence in the ability of TfL to develop future deals. Such practice may not be unlawful, but it is immoral, and that point was put to TfL on Friday. Those are many of the concerns that have been raised in the discussions so far. My hon.”
“At the meeting on Friday, representatives of the National Union of Rail, Maritime and Transport Workers said that they were concerned about ensuring the transparency of the operation not just of the partnership itself, but of the individual partners who have participated so far under existing structures. They were concerned about their willingness to abide by and adhere to tax legislation in this country and also to some of their responsibilities. At least one company that was mentioned on Friday and that TfL entered into a partnership with is based in a tax haven and is seeking to avoid taxation as a result of its established structure. Again, that is not uncommon, but it is not something that a public body such as TfL should be encouraging.”
“On the examples that we have so far, this issue of commercial confidentiality has prevented, without resort to law in many instances, the ability of members of the community or individuals who are affected by developments from gaining information on the partnerships —their purposes and their operations. When redacted documents have been offered, they have been redacted in such a way to make them virtually meaningless. I worry that this Bill offers the potential for a whole series of disastrous ventures by TfL on site after site. The hon. Member for Harrow East also mentioned taxation.”
“It is able to enter into wider partnerships and does not have to rely purely on such sales. This concept of limited partnership is introducing a real vulnerability to the tax payer—the London council tax payer in particular—and the Government who fund Transport for London. I do not understand why TfL wishes to persist with this clause of the Bill. I am extremely worried that the general public will not be able to scrutinise development deals if limited partnerships are established, and, even with the Secretary of State’s approval now being floated by TfL as an amendment, that there will not be sufficient political accountability. My hon. Friend the Member for Hammersmith will cite the example of what happened at Earls Court.”
“He provided the quote directly to the TfL officers and still has not had a response from them. The Law Commission said: “We understand this lack of clarity is considered a major defect in the law of limited partnerships in the United Kingdom.” Again, a structure has been proposed in the Bill which even the Law Commission now considers relatively opaque in its operation. I urge TfL, at this late stage, to reconsider the Bill and whether or not the legislation—certainly the clauses up to clause 7—is actually needed, given the facilities that TfL has for forming partnerships under the existing structures, which are flexible. My hon. Friend the Member for Hackney North and Stoke Newington has said that until now TfL has relied upon the sale of land to gain income, but that is no longer the case.”
“One can enter into a limited partnership and one’s liabilities are limited if one is not part of the management of that, but as soon as one enters into the management one’s liabilities are unlimited, yet a public body such as TfL would be expected to have some form of management responsibilities for the venture that is taking place. So it automatically gets caught, as this is a Catch-22 situation. I cannot see what benefit there is for TfL, although there must obviously be benefits for the individual developers who want to enter into these limited partnerships with TfL, because I fear that they will seek to ensure that the liabilities are placed on TfL and not themselves. Again, let me cite what the Law Commission said, which was quoted by Mr Osband on Friday.”
“Let me quote from the briefing note that Mr Osband provided for TfL on Friday, although I will not use the names of TfL officers, as to do so would be invidious. He said that one of the officers dealing with this “seems oblivious to the fact that it would be TfL’s Limited Partner that would be at risk of unlimited liability by virtue of TfL’s participation in the management of the General Partner. Would TfL really want to enter a Joint Venture with no management control?” This is like choosing between the devil and the deep blue sea.”
“This protection is lost if a limited partner takes part in management.” So as soon as TfL gets involved in the management of any element of the partnership and the development—I interpreted that, as did Mr Osband, as meaning any form of management of even the individual site or some asset on it—it is no longer limited in its liabilities; it becomes a general partner open to unlimited liability. I find it extraordinary that we have got to this stage in the Bill—three years on from its original promotion by TfL, nearly six months since the petitions were submitted on this issue and following a meeting on Friday—yet we still have not had a response in any detail on Mr Osband’s valid criticisms of what has taken place in terms of the development of a concept of limited partnership at the behest of the private developers.”
“I came at this on Friday afternoon, and I find it mystifying that although Mr Osband’s petition and further detailed notes had been received, we had not been given by today, even in the last throes of the briefings that were flying around yesterday, some form of assurance about the legal protections that would be provided as a result of introducing the availability of limited partnerships to TfL. Mr Osband quoted to the TfL representative the issues raised by the Law Commission on this matter. It said: “The essential feature of a limited partnership is that the liability of the limited partners for the debts and obligations of the partnership is limited to the amount of their contributions.”
“Friend the Member for Hackney North and Stoke Newington (Ms Abbott) is saying, but it does not mean that the sole way in which TfL can raise income streams is simply by a sell-off; it can enter into proper partnerships with limited companies. The hon. Member for Harrow East mentioned, on a grander scale, the ability to have shareholders and so on, but that is the normal way of protecting one partner and another: having a common shareholding in that way.”
“Yes, that is one argument, but the point of the legislation is to enable TfL to enter into not only limited partnerships but proper partnerships. Clause 4 will enable TfL to enter into partnerships that are limited by guarantee, so why do we need a mechanism that is novel for TfL, that requires new legislation and that heightens the risk to TfL when there is already a vehicle available that will protect it? This mechanism appears to have been included purely and simply at the behest of some of the development companies that have approached TfL. That cannot be right. Surely the public purse needs to be protected in the best possible way. I understand what my hon.”
“For the record, I can confirm that point. On 6 May, TfL and Sir Peter Hendy CBE wrote to the RMT that TfL “may only use a company limited by shares as the joint venture vehicle”. So that facility is open to it. He wrote: “The new powers will be of most relevance to joint ventures with the private sector involving property development”, and he “anticipated that any such projects will be done using a partnership structure. Indeed, the choice of joint venture vehicle for the Earls Court development would have been different if TfL had the powers it is now seeking.””
“Whether we look at the schedule, which relates to charges against land, or whether we look at clause 5, which provides for developments by a limited partnership, we are talking about a huge property portfolio for potential development with the private sector.”
“During the meeting that my hon. Friend and I attended on Friday, one of the points raised—and it has been raised by the hon. Member for Christchurch (Mr Chope)—concerned not the principle of limited partnership, but the need to establish some sense of the scale of these operations. In July, my hon. Friend had a meeting with a Mr Graeme Craig of Transport for London, during which Mr Craig said that TfL had 5,700 acres of land across London, and approximately 800 archways. There was a list of schemes involving South Kensington, Baker Street, Old Street, Oxford Circus, Victoria, Golders Green and Northwood stations.”
“The greyness becomes my hon. Friend, by the way, but on the point he is making, the issue is that a limited liability company will lodge its accounts at Companies House, whereas a limited partnership has no responsibility to do that, so even then there will be complete opaqueness about the financial transactions of that limited partnership.”
“Let me make this clear. TfL is working under the political direction of the current Mayor of London. This is about Boris Johnson selling off sites to speculator friends to try to bail himself out following the cuts that have been made by this Government. This is not an attack on the individual officers of TfL—far from it. There is political direction behind this.”
“I would like the Minister to engage in dialogue with local authorities and perhaps survey them on what resources are being devoted to the issue already and how they need to be strengthened. He could then bring the report back to the House so that we can properly undertake our role, which is to set objectives and ensure that a systematic process is in place and that we devote the resources for tackling the problem. That way, I think that we can manage to find a way forward. If we cannot do that, all the pious words and eloquent speeches we have heard will be irrelevant, and we will be back here in another four of five years to talk about more scandals and an excellent legislative regime that is not being implemented at the grass roots, where resources and implementation are vital.”
“I think that it behoves us now to review in detail the resources available to individual local authorities. Earlier in the debate an hon. Member talked about the need to inculcate best practice across local authorities, and I agree, but best practice still relies on expert professionals being able to undertake inspections, work with the RSPCA and the voluntary sector, advise owners— some of this is about advising those involved in the industry on how to raise their standards—and, ultimately, ensure that there is enforcement. Having talked with other Members and local authorities in my area and elsewhere, I understand that those resources are not available.”
“The third issue raised today was the removal of puppies from their mothers after only two, three or four weeks, and I take a fairly strong line on that. I would have a limit of 12 weeks, rather than the proposed eight weeks. I want a harder regime, and I want it to be encompassed in legislation so that it is clear-cut. Too often in this House we will the objectives without willing the means to achieve them. As has been said a number of times, local authorities do not have the resources invested in this to enable them to undertake the kind of enforcement regime that we expect. It would be wrong simply to castigate those authorities, because in many areas they are struggling to protect children and elderly people with the resources they have. Their resources are stretched.”
“I am grateful for the work done by the Select Committee and various campaigning organisations to demonstrate that, although that legislation laid the foundations—I welcomed the 2006 Act and thought it was quite comprehensive—a lot more detail needs to be addressed. I fully support a number of the proposals that have been made today. I think that reducing the number of litters allowed each year under the licensing regime to two is critical. Beyond that, breeding becomes an industry, and that is the point at which abuses start. Importation is critical. The threshold of five animals per individual is too high, because it enables a large number of animals to be introduced into the country, almost subverting the current legislation.”
“I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Stoke-on-Trent South (Robert Flello) for securing this debate, and the 125,000 people who signed the petition. If nothing else, it has enabled MPs to get up and demonstrate how many dogs, cats and goldfish they own, and also to put their names on the historic record—a valuable contribution to our civilisation. Early in 2009, a network of puppy farms in Wales was exposed. It was horrendous and showed the barbaric treatment of animals. I tabled an early-day motion, which was signed by 75 hon. Members and called for a review of the legislation to ensure that it was effective. At the time and since, we were given various assurances that the Breeding and Sale of Dogs (Welfare) Act 1999 and the Animal Welfare Act 2006 were appropriate.”
“Member for Hereford and South Herefordshire (Jesse Norman) mentioned the supporters trusts. If a grant is given from the FA or the premiership, it should be linked to automatic supporter representation on boards, because that will gain not just openness and transparency but community control of the clubs. There are simple solutions to tackle some of the key issues facing non-league football. I agree with everybody else: this is about not just football but community spirit. It is at the heart of community life in many of our constituencies.”
“That is why they need more support. I agree with the hon. Member for Wyre Forest: the economy is wrong. There needs to be a redistribution of wealth to grass-roots football and an honest discussion with the FA and the premiership about a proper levy beyond what currently exists, to enable more grass-roots investment in terms of not only pitches but revenue support. Secondly, Hereford is a good example of the problems we have had. Only a few years ago, Hayes came fifth in the conference. Then we were relegated to conference south, and we got relegated last year but survived only because other clubs went into administration, which was an horrendous experience. We need openness and transparency on how club boards operate, so that people can be aware of the financial situation and how it is being managed. Thirdly, the hon.”
“We have all come here with our traumas and we have all gone through various experiences where not everything has been completely open and transparent, but people work hard to help these clubs survive. Hayes produced two England players—Cyrille Regis and Les Ferdinand—as the result of a youth policy. They worked with youngsters, gave them basic training and the opportunity to play—getting that opportunity is difficult for many at semi-professional level—and brought on grass-roots football, which I think produced good national teams in the past. The reason our national team has problems at the moment is that a lot of grass-roots football has been undermined. The cost of pitches in my area is pricing out local teams. The local non-league clubs represent not just the grass roots but the heart of football and its development.”
“Hayes sold their ground and merged with Yeading, and I became the honorary president of Hayes & Yeading United. Unfortunately, however, even the income from the sale of the ground was not enough to cover their debts. We were looking to move to the Yeading site, but there was not sufficient money to finish off the work we had done on that ground, so we are now nomads. We played at Woking’s ground last year, and I spent more time on the M25 than actually watching matches. We are now at Maidenhead and are desperately trying to raise funds to finish off the Yeading site. We should pay tribute to all the volunteers out there who have kept non-league football going—they work so hard.”
“We had a successful track record but, like many non-league clubs, we ran into financial difficulties because, as is particularly the case for a London non-league club, the pull of the premiership and other teams is enormous, and maintaining a supporter base is extremely difficult. We tried to reduce costs by finding alternative sites and so on. We looked to sell our ground and to purchase from the local council, Hillingdon, the football stadium within half a mile of our club site that it was going to close and sell off, but it refused to sell it to us. It was right next to a local school. We were looking to take over the ground, set up a football academy, work with the local school and act as a community resource, but Hillingdon council was too greedy and refused to sell us the site. In fact, it refused to enter into a partnership.”
“I want to follow on from what the hon. Member for Wyre Forest (Mark Garnier) said. We are debating three issues: first, his point about resources; secondly, regulation, particularly with regard to the openness and transparency of the operational boards; and, thirdly, the right to community representation on the boards of football clubs. I am honorary vice-president of Hayes & Yeading United. I was honorary vice-president of Hayes football club, as it was formerly, and I have supported it for 35 years. Hayes has been a successful club over the years. We produced Cyrille Regis, Les Ferdinand and Jason Roberts. In fact, the chair of the FA, Greg Dyke, is a Hayes boy.”
“Thirdly, there is an element of stick. As has been said, Pakistan receives a significant amount of aid from this country. It is also a significant trading partner with us. All of those trading agreements now have a commitment to human rights embodied in them, but that is not being fulfilled. We must explain to the Pakistani Government in particular that if they want this relationship with us, they have to start delivering by addressing human rights abuses in this particular instance, and we should invite them to bring forward their programme of work for tackling this disgraceful abuse of the Hazaras. I want the Minister to meet the all-party group, but also to prepare a systematic report on how we can bring forward this issue so that we can protect this community.”
“I know he has offered to meet the all-party group, but a systematic report from Government on how we are going to approach this issue on a whole range of levels would be helpful. Obviously, there is an element of carrot and stick. In terms of positive assistance through DFID, there is a question as to how we target resources on the Hazara community in Pakistan and Afghanistan, and what support we can concretely give them, because they are suffering economically as a result of the oppression they are facing. The second point is to do with the conflict pool and conflict prevention and resolution. We have looked at proposals in other areas where we support Human Rights Watch and other human rights organisations to put people on the ground, including supporting the Hazaras with the legal representation they need on individual cases.”
“Then there was the bizarre element that some of those who had been arrested were allowed to escape, with clear collusion on the part of the authorities. I told my constituents that I would do everything I possibly could to support the all-party group—I congratulate my right hon. Friend the Member for Southampton, Itchen (Mr Denham) on establishing it—and also to look at how we systematically approach this issue so that we have a method of working in which, as my hon. Friend the Member for Bridgend (Mrs Moon) said, we bring attention to it and do not allow it ever to be dropped again. I want to thank Baroness Warsi for the work she did and the commitment she undertook on this issue, but may I make a suggestion to the Minister?”
“Like everybody else in the Commons today, I knew nothing about Hazaras until a small group of my constituents turned up in my constituency office and took me through their experience, which was horrendous. The group travelled as pilgrims and on the coach they were divided on ethnic lines, taken off, and a number of them murdered on the spot. That was just one experience. When I witnessed the photographs and the reports, I felt, like everyone else, lacking because I did not know about this and a sense of a sin of omission in not doing anything about it. The other thing that came up in the discussions with the group was their anxiety that the perpetrators of this violence against them, particularly in Pakistan, were operating with virtual impunity, with no action taken against them or only tokenistic arrests.”
“I would welcome the opportunity, as secretary of the all-party group on the National Union of Journalists, to meet the relevant officials to talk through how the protections will be implemented and what advice they might be able to give to ensure that there is no incursion on the rights of journalists to report accurately and truthfully. I see that, in paragraph 6.1 of the explanatory memorandum, the Minister has signed off the usual caveat: “In my view the provisions of the Data Retention Regulations 2014 are compatible with the Convention rights.” Bearing in mind that a similar statement was struck down last time in relation to the directive, will he take the exceptional step of publishing the legal opinion on which he based his judgment? I have a sneaking suspicion that this one might be challenged as well.”
“I would like to vote against these regulations but will not, because I do not wish to eat into the time for the summer recess debate, which I also want to participate in—there is self-interest in that as well. I just want to raise again the issue of professional secrecy. The Minister said in his introduction that that would be dealt with. In last week’s debate, it was to be dealt with in codes of practice and guidance, but now it will be built into the decision-making process. The concerns raised relate to the legal profession and to journalism.”
“I now find from a cabinet report that the council is now at risk of incurring a £1 million payment to the contractor as a result of the settlement of the dispute. That all arose from the fact that the leader’s decision was not reported publicly at all, which is a disgrace. I do not think that the Government can stand to one side when such practices are undermining confidence in local government and democracy overall. I therefore again urge them to establish a full independent public inquiry to reassure my constituents that local democracy can be restored to my community.”
“Not only are the general public denied any access to those reports, but any opposition councillor who in any way informs the public about any items in those reports will be threatened with criminal action. I believe that that is unacceptable: it is actually undermining local democracy within my area. I have raised that matter on several occasions. On one of them, I used the example of Triscott House, which is a residential home for elderly people. When it was renovated, there was a delay of 18 months as that dragged on, and ladies in their 80s—one was in her 90s—lived out of packing cases while waiting to be rehoused back into Triscott House. I demonstrated that that was because the council had fallen out with a contractor, and I exposed on the Floor on the House that it had laundered money to pay the contractor through another contract.”
“I believe that Hillingdon council is a prime example of what Transparency International was talking about. In Hillingdon, we now live under an elective dictatorship. It is a prime example of the lack of openness and transparency in decision making. I believe that the use of the argument that commercial confidentiality prevents open discussion of decisions and issues before the council is used to cover up incompetence and maybe worse. I would just give the example of this week’s cabinet committee papers. On 25 July, the cabinet will meet, but of the 12 items with reports on the agenda, seven are marked as restricted and will not be publicly published.”
“Again, I desperately urge the Government to launch an independent public inquiry into the administration of Hillingdon council. Eighteen months ago, I brought to the House for debate Transparency International’s report on the potential risk of corruption and maladministration in local government in this country. Transparency International is the organisation that specialises in preparing reports on openness and transparency in Governments overall, and in calculating levels of corruption across the world to produce a league table of states. Transparency International looked at the changes in local government administration and decision making in this country in recent years—under the previous Government and under this one—and it expressed concerns about the risk of corruption and maladministration in local government in this country.”
“The Government’s response has been to impose a £13 million fine on the Northern Ireland Administration for 2014, which will rise to £87 million in 2014-15 and to £114 million in 2015-16. That was contained in a letter I was copied into from the Chief Secretary to the Treasury. It is somewhat bizarre, because at the same time he sent the letter, he was saying publicly that he would vote to scrap the bedroom tax after the next election—somewhat contradictory, but I suppose unsurprising of the man. I urge the Government to think again. The proposals threaten not just to impose a significantly harsh welfare regime on the people of Northern Ireland, but to undermine the whole concept of devolved government. I want to turn to Hillingdon council, which I raised in the last pre-recess Adjournment debate.”
“May I tread into Northern Ireland again and talk about welfare reform there? The Government are seeking to impose their welfare reform legislation on the people of Northern Ireland, including the bedroom tax, the harsh benefit sanctions, the disaster of universal credit and work capability assessments, with all their adverse consequences. Sinn Fein has looked at the hardship that such measures have caused in England and Wales and has met several representatives in this country, Wales and Scotland, and it is concerned about what has happened here, especially to the most vulnerable—children and people with disabilities. It has been agreed that those welfare reform proposals are not appropriate for Northern Ireland and not supported by the people, and that they should therefore not be implemented.”
“I urge the Government to look at the matter, because these firefighters consider their pension to be insecure and require a decision from the Government. Thirdly, I want to draw the attention of the House—this is a cross-party issue—to the Mayor of London’s attempt to change the representation on the London fire authority. He is promoting a statutory instrument that will enable the replacement of London assembly and borough representatives on the fire authority with his own appointees. It will cut the Labour representation in half and remove all Lib Dem and Green representation. I urge the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government to refuse to agree to the introduction of the statutory instrument, but if it is introduced I urge Members to vote against it on a cross-party basis.”
“We are willing to meet at any stage during the recess, if it will help to resolve the dispute. Another issue is the ongoing discussions about the unresolved pension arrangements for defence fire service and rescue firefighters. In 2015, these firefighters will contribute 12.55% to their pension, which is the highest contribution in the fire service across the country. They will pay more than any other firefighters, but they will receive yet fewer benefits. They have still not had a decision from Government about their pension age. I, along with a number of colleagues, including the hon. Member for Colchester (Sir Bob Russell), who has just left his place, and the hon. Member for Argyll and Bute (Mr Reid), wrote to the fire Minister last week, urging her to resolve the matter. We thought it would be resolved months ago, but it has not.”
“In the Christmas recess debate I raised the ongoing dispute between the Fire Brigades Union and the Government on pension age and pension protection, and I wish to do so again because the dispute has not been resolved. The Northern Ireland Administration and the Scottish Government have agreed with the FBU that a retirement age of 60 is too old for the physical demands of the firefighting job. They have also agreed on a retirement age of 55 with no financial penalty, but the UK Government will still not budge. I urge the new fire Minister, the Under-Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government, the hon. Member for Portsmouth North (Penny Mordaunt), to break the deadlock and enter into meaningful negotiations. I hope she will agree to meet the FBU parliamentary group to discuss the matter.”
“I apologise, because I want to raise six issues, but I will take only a couple of sentences on each one. It will be world hepatitis day on 28 July. The Hepatitis C Trust briefed Members two weeks ago about the number of hepatitis C sufferers in this country. There are now 250,000 in the UK and most remain undiagnosed. New treatments are able to cure 95%, but awareness and testing are extremely low, so only 3% of sufferers receive treatment every year. I want to put that on record and urge the Government to increase the awareness of hepatitis C in our country and to prioritise diagnosis and treatment. I want to raise three issues with regard to the fire service.”
“My hon. Friend has come up with concrete proposals and a recommendation for Ofcom, but is not the problem that Ofcom has no sense of urgency at the moment? It says that it will not institute a review until the end of 2015 and that the 2011 legislation statutorily barred it from establishing a fund for five years, which means that it will not be able to do so until 2016, unless the Secretary of State acts. There is, therefore, a twin responsibility; on the Secretary of State to act in order to enable a discussion about the fund; and on Ofcom to institute the review now.”
“If that happens, we will be not only letting down the work force of the Royal Mail, but betraying our own constituents as well.”
“First of all, we should bring in Ofcom to define where it is at in the analysis of the tipping point of the threat; and secondly, we should start the work on the support fund now. I say that because, as other Members have said, it will take a while to put in place, so we should at least start the work now so that if it is needed, it is readily available. If it is not, fair enough; it does not have to be enacted in its final form, but let us at least get the work undertaken now. Otherwise, we will all regret that we did not act sooner. The onus, I am afraid, is on the Government. I say that not in a partisan or critical way because I believe I reflect the views of the whole House across the parties in saying that the Government must feel a sense of urgency. Otherwise, we will lose the service that every Member has praised.”
“I would welcome a public meeting involving Ofcom, us and the Minister so that we had full openness and transparency about the monitoring it is undertaking and how it defines where the tipping point will be. What time scale is it working to? The second issue, raised by my hon. Friend the Member for North Ayrshire and Arran, is about the support fund. As has been said, the legislation barred any action for five years unless the Secretary of State intervened. We have all said it now: we know that the five-year period is too long because we may well miss the boat if the Secretary of State does not intervene now. Government action is a matter of urgency. I think there would be cross-party support on these two measures.”
“I listen to the real experts—those whom everyone has cited today and praised to high heaven. They are the people who deliver the mail. They know what is happening on the ground, how they are being undercut by TNT and others and what their prospects are—in the near future, not just the long term. They are saying through their trade union and in direct dialogue that, if we do not act soon, we will lose the universal service. There is now an onus on the Government to bring Ofcom in and start immediately on two processes. First, there should be an immediate public review. I would welcome it if the Minister went back to the Secretary of State to say that we need to bring Ofcom in now.”
“But I am subsidising—we are all subsidising—TNT and others now. They do not pay a living wage, so we are subsiding most of their workers through working tax credits and other benefits. That is the irony. What worries me now is that I believe we are at the tipping point. I repeat what the hon. Member for Angus said: if we do not do something soon, it might well be too late. That is why if we do not act very quickly, we might go past the tipping point and lose it, given the time scales and how slowly Ofcom works. My worry is that Ofcom says it monitors what is happening at the moment and does not feel it needs to act at this time, yet it never defines publicly what the tipping point is. Ofcom does not share information that would demonstrate whether the service is under threat or not.”
“Friend the Member for North Ayrshire and Arran (Katy Clark). The irony 10 years ago was that the former general secretary of the union was then a Minister pushing the legislation through. The Communication Workers Union-associated Members had disappeared that evening; only a limited number of us were here, fighting and arguing in favour of amendments. It was late at night and I remember it well. We said that the changes would inevitably result in, first, a threat to the postal service and, secondly, in the full privatisation of the Royal Mail. That has happened. It has been done in such a way that we have lost billions as well. This is why I get so angry—what we have done to the postal service in this country is absolute insanity. I remember well the argument put up then: that we could no longer subsidise Royal Mail.”