David Davis
MP for Goole and Pocklington · Conservative · United Kingdom
“On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. May I start by congratulating my right hon. Friend the Member for New Forest West (Sir Desmond Swayne) on putting a Bill in front of the House that has support from literally everybody in the Chamber?”
“The Post Office Horizon scandal highlighted the institutional instinct to find a convenient scapegoat. Innocent people paid the price, while the institution sought to protect itself. If the Thirlwall inquiry asks too narrow a set of questions, systemic NHS failures will go unexamined.”
“Last month’s sentencing of Nicola Sturgeon’s husband exposed the real reasons behind the Scottish Government’s persecution of Alex Salmond. From 2010 to 2022, Peter Murrell abused his position to embezzle almost £500,000 from the SNP to buy luxury items. He used SNP money to buy a £33,000 Volkswagen Golf.”
“The consultants also reported that in the two months since the change infants have been sick but recovered as expected.” The report highlighted deficiencies in staffing levels, leadership and communication, but, in the trial, it was not shown to the jury—they knew nothing of it.”
“One of the nurses let go later described it as “the decimation of the Nursing and Midwifery service”, adding that “eight registered nurses...were replaced with nursery nurses...unqualified staff are replacing qualified staff”.”
“There was little space, cots and incubators were stored in corridors, and mothers struggled to find somewhere to breastfeed their babies. Susan Gilby, the hospital’s chief executive between 2018 and 2022, later described the unit as “dark, dingy and cramped”, providing a “less than ideal” environment to work in.”
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“Let me say two things to the hon. Gentleman. I do not think that I have ever run away from scrutiny. I have spent more time at the Dispatch Box than any other Secretary of State in the last five months. In terms of what he says about the importance of the Bill, of course it is important, and indeed I want as much time as we can possibly get for it to be discussed; but that is a matter, as I said, for the usual channels to discuss. Many people who see the Bill as incredibly important—perhaps more than it really is—are seeing it as some sort of point of no return. The point of no return was passed on 23 June last year. This is simply carrying out the instructions of the British people.”
“I think the British public will be looking at both Houses and expecting them to do their democratic duty properly, which means not to thwart the Bill or delay it unnecessarily, but to undertake a proper process of scrutiny and then to deliver on the will of the people.”
“I cannot off the top of my head think of a circumstance in which EVEL would apply, but it might do so. The point I would make to the hon. Lady is that that rests on a ruling by the Speaker, not by a Secretary of State.”
“That is a debatable matter of law. I think that that is the accurate answer. Subsequent matters may arise after the triggering of article 50, but if so we will come back to the House.”
“My hon. Friend is exactly right. Her question goes to the point that I have made previously at the Dispatch Box which is that that is why we took the case all the way to the Supreme Court. By the way, it was not just about the role of the House of Commons on article 50; it was also, of course, about the role of the devolved Administrations, which had in any event to go to the Supreme Court.”
“If the hon. Gentleman goes back through this old Member’s extensive experience, I do not think he will find that I have ever referred to the judges as the enemies of the people—just the converse. It is occasionally embarrassing to me that I sometimes use them.”
“I agree with my hon. Friend. For my part, I will endeavour to make the Bill as straightforward and as comprehensible as possible. I say that not just for speed, but because the public will be watching us. The public will want to know what we are voting on and to be able to understand it, so nothing will be opaque. We will aim to present a straightforward, simple Bill that we will take through as fast as is consistent with proper scrutiny.”
“If I remember correctly, that section ends with the phrase, “nobody has a veto”—no devolved Administration has a veto. In terms of involving and looking after or trying to help assist the interests of the devolved Administrations and the people they represent, we have a whole process in place with the Joint Ministerial Committee, which does nothing but consider these matters. It considers the interests of the nations of the United Kingdom to ensure that none of their special interests, none of their special political situations and none of their special economic situations is harmed in any way.”
“I will correct the hon. Lady slightly: there will not be a simple trade negotiation. The European Union pretty much always insists that nothing is agreed until everything is agreed, so justice and home affairs, security matters and a whole series of other issues will be tied into it. But, yes, there will be a vote at the end of it. We have already agreed to that.”
“Yes is the answer. I am afraid I take the view that to suggest that somehow the British people did not know what they were doing the first time so must have a chance to get the answer right is, bluntly, patronising, undemocratic and improper. Rightly, that view is held by one of the smallest parties in this House. The answer is that I will not under any circumstances support a second referendum.”
“I spoke to Carwyn Jones about that yesterday. I have not had a chance to read it in detail, but I know the headlines. He took me through them, and it struck me as a very constructive submission to the process. We will debate it at the next Joint Ministerial Committee.”
“I warn my hon. Friend to be wary of biblical quotations. The last one I used was, “Get thee behind me, Satan”, and it rode with me for several weeks thereafter. However, he is right that this is a massive exercise in democracy, and we will make it so.”
“I will say two things. First, I think that the hon. Gentleman misreads the judgment. It does not talk about taking back powers back from the devolved Administrations at all, as far as I can see. As I said to the hon. Member for Arfon (Hywel Williams), the interests of the people of Wales, as far as the Welsh Government view them, have been put into a paper that has been submitted to the Joint Ministerial Committee and will be debated at the next meeting of its European negotiating arm.”
“To make a more fundamental point, when we are dealing with something as important as this—I do not think anybody in the House questions the importance of the constitutional decision that has been made today—it is incredibly important that it is done on solid ground, with proper authority and in a way that the Government can interpret properly to deliver the right outcome. I have made that point across this Dispatch Box more than once. Frankly, it will therefore be worth whatever we have paid for it.”
“On the latter point, I do not have that number in my mind, but I can—[Hon. Members: “Oh!”] Well, I don’t. I have been studying the judgment today. I will provide the hon. Lady with that number as soon as I can. That will happen quickly. I am quite sure that the Supreme Court judgment will have been expensive on one level, because lawyers are expensive, as the Labour spokesman would tell us. I am sure that he is a much more expensive lawyer—that is the greatest compliment I can pay him.”
“I will not reiterate the facts of the Supreme Court judgment on the Northern Irish aspect. The hon. Gentleman can read those much more authoritatively in the judgment. I have said to him before in this House and reiterate to him again that there is more than one guarantee in this matter. The British Government are determined to preserve the peace settlement and all that underpins it; the Irish Government are determined to underpin it; and so is the Commission. I will say something nice about the Commission in this regard. When I spoke to Michel Barnier, my opposite number, he reminded me that he was involved in the original peace process. All the parties to this matter therefore have a vested interest in delivering what the hon. Gentleman wants.”
“I thought I was really rather restrained, given that the Prime Minister was sitting here today. I could have been thoroughly oleaginous, but I was not prompted by my right hon. Friend the Member for Broxtowe (Anna Soubry) this time, who gave me the line about Her Majesty.”
“Yes, absolutely. I will not rehearse all the arguments again, but I will provide whatever information I can and as much information as I can, as promptly as I can, bearing in mind that the process is likely to start next week.”
“I will say two things. First, Andy Haldane, the deputy governor of the Bank of England, has talked about a Michael Fish moment for economic forecasters. The hon. Gentleman might deliberate on that the next time he wants to ask a question like this. Secondly, economic models and forecasts are only as good as the assumptions that go into them. The point that the Prime Minister made last week was not just that we would not be a member of the single market, but that we would seek the freest and most barrier-free access in the interests of the people of Wales and others. That is what we will seek, but the negotiation is not complete yet. That is our aim and if we succeed, it will be hugely valuable for the people of Wales.”
“Looking across the Chamber, I am tempted to ask, “What Liberal Democrats?”. As my hon. Friend said, there was only one of them here, which shows just how seriously they take this incredibly important issue. I think the public at large will take the view that the Liberal Democrats are trying to use this matter for their own political purposes, not for the national interest.”
“I could stand here for 10 minutes naming companies, such as Apple, Google, Microsoft and McDonald’s, that have decided to be here. We have pretty much the highest employment and lowest unemployment rates for some considerable time, completely contrary to the pessimistic predictions of many people after the Brexit result. If we want a demonstration of how wrong the establishment of Britain got this, we need only look at those numbers.”
“I can send my hon. Friend the details, but the number of meetings is beyond counting; we have had meetings with manufacturing, aviation, tourism, finance and banking, insurance and so on. Not just my Ministers but Ministers across Government are talking to their own client industries, as it were, to ensure they know what their concerns are, what the opportunities are and what policy measures we have to take to maximise the opportunities and mitigate any concerns. It took a few months, but people are beginning to see the opportunities, rather than the concerns, which represents an incredibly important change in mood in our country.”
“First, I have listened to people talking about what was not on the ballot paper. It is rather like saying, “You said you were going to sell the car, but you didn’t say you were going to sell me the engine and tyres as well.” These elements—the common external tariff barrier, the common commercial policy, the role of the European Court of Justice, and so on—are components of the EU, which the public voted to leave. Secondly, the hon. Gentleman misquotes me. I have said that there will be any number of votes and debates in the coming two years, many of them about the issues he talks about.”
“As I said on the costs, I will provide the numbers; there is no problem with doing that. I would make the point, however, that we did not bring the case, of which the cost is a direct outcome. I am not one of those— [Interruption.] Animal noises from the Opposition notwithstanding, I am not one of those who criticise the people who brought the case; I think they brought a very important constitutional case, which is why I said, whatever it cost, it was worth doing. Let no one say to the Government, however, “Why did you appeal the case?”. We did so because a massively important constitutional issue was at stake, and my hon. Friend is right that we should all take it very seriously, take it as the status of our law today and obey it accordingly.”
“Of course, that is not going to happen, but we also have to think, in rational terms and in the interests of the Scottish people and citizens of the UK more widely, about where the best place is to make decisions. In most cases, I would prefer to devolve powers, but in some circumstances that is not practical. We have to do what is right for the people, not what suits our political interest.”
“If I remember correctly, the Supreme Court said of the Sewel convention that it was not for the judges to decide. I listened last week as the Scottish Government Minister presented at great length the arguments in their paper. As I said earlier to one of the hon. Gentleman’s colleagues, there are bits we disagree with and bits we absolutely agree with—for me, the most obvious one is the protection of employment law, which I take very seriously and on which we are absolutely in the same place. I and others on the Joint Ministerial Committee discussed with the Minister the issue of devolution, and the clear point was that no existing devolved powers were to be retracted.”
“No, I do not think my hon. Friend is right. It is a 96-page judgment, so we have to go through the detail, but the major part of the case was confined to two aspects—the implications specifically for the European Communities Act and for those treaties that have an effect on the domestic legal rights of citizens—and I do not think that the decision to go to war falls within either. He raises more broadly, however, an important point. We are in an era when the exact reach of the royal prerogative has to be established and understood. Once we are in complete command of our own future, we will have to know what the Government can and cannot do, what we have to do in conjunction with Parliament and where we have to go back for authorisation. That is one reason we are taking our time to read the judgment.”
“Let us take the plan with respect to what was asked for by Labour Front-Bench Members and the Select Committee. They asked, “What are we going to do about the single market?” and hopefully that is now plain. They asked, “What are we going to do about the customs union?”, and hopefully that is now plain. They asked, “What are we going to do about justice and home affairs?”, and hopefully that is now plain. They asked, “What role is seen for Britain in the world?”, and hopefully that is now plain, too. Of course, what we cannot do is say what the outcome of the negotiation will be. We cannot give that level of certainty, but we can certainly give a level of certainty, as we have and as we will, as to what the aims and strategic objectives are. We have done that.”
“The Chairman of the Select Committee, who is not here, said his Committee wanted a plan as quickly as possible—before the middle of February; I said it would be difficult to turn out a full White Paper before then. One of the virtues of delivering the plan via a prime ministerial speech of some length was that we could do it quickly, we could make it very clear and everybody could understand it. It also got coverage around the world in a way that no other medium could have. People remind me—and sometimes tease me, of course—of my history as an activist for parliamentary rights. The important point is that we are here only because we represent our constituents’ interests. I have tried—I keep reiterating this phrase—to provide as much information as possible.”
“I am afraid that my hon. Friend has failed in not making me repeat myself. Plainly, the House has determined that I would fail miserably in “Just a Minute”, or whatever the quiz is called where people are not allowed to repeat themselves. I reiterate that it is the facts that matter and the plan that matters and answering Parliament’s questions that matters. We have done all those things. We will continue. I will continue to provide whatever information I can without compromising our negotiating position—I will do that.”
“The reason I say that and the reason I am being cautious is that an election is now under way, and I have to be wary of the British Government appearing to meddle in any aspect of the election. Let me, therefore, pause and think about that. I will do what I judge to be in the best interests of Northern Ireland. The hon. Gentleman must take that as my promise.”
“The hon. Gentleman raises an interesting point. Before I answer directly, let me say that I have, of course, sought to get the parties in the Executive to continue to send a Minister to the Joint Ministerial Committee, but that is only one mechanism; there are others. I think that the Prime Minister will be speaking to the Taoiseach next week, so the Irish Government interest will be represented. I will, of course, talk to others more directly. I went to Northern Ireland early on in my time in this job. I am inclined to say yes to the hon. Gentleman—I will write to him—but let me consider the issue carefully, so that I do not land myself in some problem.”
“I rather suspect that the hon. Lady misquotes me from last week. What I said, or what I should have said, was that some elements of the powers coming back from the European Union will go to the devolved Administrations, that some will stay in the centre, but for a number we are going to have to debate the matter and decide. That will happen in the first instance in the Joint Ministerial Committee and then at Cabinet.”
“I have been here for 30 years. If the hon. Gentleman knows how to draft a Bill that withstands any amendments, I would like to hear about it.”
“Yes, and I would hope that, once we get through the article 50 process, we will see a rather more collegiate attitude from all parts of the political spectrum. It is, after all, our national interest that is engaged.”
“I am not about to protect the hon. Gentleman from his constituents, I am afraid. My comment to him is this: we are in a negotiation. If he can point out to me a negotiation that had guarantees before it started, I would be interested to hear about it.”
“Because I have said that no component part of the United Kingdom has a veto. If the hon. Gentleman had been listening, he would know that I have said that dozens of times in this House.”
“First, I do not necessarily think that the interests of the Scottish National party are the same as those of the Scottish people. Secondly, as I remember, the Scottish nation voted to stay inside the United Kingdom—the United Kingdom that voted to leave the European Union.”
“We already have. That was the point that the Prime Minister was making when she said that we wanted barrier-free, most facilitated trade with the EU.”
“From what I remember of my hon. Friend’s constituency, there are enough Members of the upper House in it for him to be able to tell them himself.”
“As I have said to several of the hon. Gentleman’s colleagues, we work in the Joint Ministerial Committee, we work bilaterally, and we seek to protect the interests of the whole United Kingdom, not least Scotland.”
“When a question begins “I do not want to frustrate the process, but”, it tells us something in its own right. The Government are seeking authorisation to trigger the start of the negotiation, which is what the British people voted for last year. End of story. That is not the only issue, but it is the most important issue.”
“I think that the Scottish Government’s case was represented in the Supreme Court. Unlike the hon. Gentleman, I do not pick and choose which bits I like or do not like; I go along with the Supreme Court, because it is the highest court in our land and we have to obey it.”
“There were a great many forecasts of how terrible things would be if the people voted for Brexit. They were all undilutedly wrong: every single one was wrong. Our strategic aim is to secure a comprehensive free trade agreement, not to fail to do so, and that is what will protect the hon. Lady’s constituents if she is willing to pay attention to it.”
“A whole series of special circumstances apply. When I first visited Northern Ireland after taking up my present post, what came up were matters such as the importance of the border and the single energy market, and we will continue to pay attention to those matters. If the hon. Lady will forgive me, I am going to be very careful about answering questions because of the ongoing election process, but I think she should take it as read that we take this issue very seriously indeed.”
“Obviously the hon. Lady is not the first person to ask for a White Paper, but hers was perhaps one of the more partisan requests. The strategic aims are very clear: they are designed to protect the interests of the people whom she represents.”
“I am trying to think what the significance of Hilary term is, except in the context of the Chairman of the Exiting the European Union Committee. I am afraid that I did not hear half the hon. Gentleman’s question, so I shall have to write to him. [Hon. Members: “It was about the Lords.”] I could not hear that either. I will answer later.”
“I really do not think so. I have never been accused of cowardice before, so I am not quite sure how to respond to the question, but the answer is no.”
“I do not think that it can be held up as the ideal model for a perfect outcome.”
“After receiving that document I was very careful not to criticise it publicly, because I wanted to have that debate. I was chairing the Joint Ministerial Committee, so I did not want to, as it were, colour my chairing of it. As I have said before, the document falls into three categories. There are bits which I did not think would work, there are bits that are subject to debate—especially those relating to devolution issues—and there are bits where we are absolutely on the same page, on matters such as employment law. However, elements of this paper will run into problems not just with the United Kingdom Government, but with other members of the European Union. It was criticised by the Spanish Europe Minister, and it was criticised implicitly by senior Norwegians on the European Free Trade Association front.”