David Davis
MP for Goole and Pocklington · Conservative · United Kingdom
“On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. May I start by congratulating my right hon. Friend the Member for New Forest West (Sir Desmond Swayne) on putting a Bill in front of the House that has support from literally everybody in the Chamber?”
“The Post Office Horizon scandal highlighted the institutional instinct to find a convenient scapegoat. Innocent people paid the price, while the institution sought to protect itself. If the Thirlwall inquiry asks too narrow a set of questions, systemic NHS failures will go unexamined.”
“Last month’s sentencing of Nicola Sturgeon’s husband exposed the real reasons behind the Scottish Government’s persecution of Alex Salmond. From 2010 to 2022, Peter Murrell abused his position to embezzle almost £500,000 from the SNP to buy luxury items. He used SNP money to buy a £33,000 Volkswagen Golf.”
“The consultants also reported that in the two months since the change infants have been sick but recovered as expected.” The report highlighted deficiencies in staffing levels, leadership and communication, but, in the trial, it was not shown to the jury—they knew nothing of it.”
“One of the nurses let go later described it as “the decimation of the Nursing and Midwifery service”, adding that “eight registered nurses...were replaced with nursery nurses...unqualified staff are replacing qualified staff”.”
“There was little space, cots and incubators were stored in corridors, and mothers struggled to find somewhere to breastfeed their babies. Susan Gilby, the hospital’s chief executive between 2018 and 2022, later described the unit as “dark, dingy and cramped”, providing a “less than ideal” environment to work in.”
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“It is the same assurance I give to all manufacturing operations in the United Kingdom: the aim of this negotiation is to deliver the best trade opportunity that we can. That includes getting the best arrangement with the European market and exploiting the best arrangements with other, non-European markets. I will make a point to the hon. Gentleman on manufacturing alone: the quantity of exports we make to the European Union is exceeded by the exports we make to those countries with which we have no free trade agreement at all. Once we get a free trade agreement, or many free trade agreements, as the Secretary of State for International Trade will do—I shall not steal his thunder—we will not see downsides; we will see opportunities.”
“My right hon. Friend is not known for understating his case, but I would point out that it was 17.5 million people who made that judgment. He is right: much of the gloom and doom and fearmongering that went on before the referendum has been proven to be wrong. That said, I would not be quite so unalloyed in my optimism as he is, because of course we are in a world where there are a lot of economic pressures. That is why the meetings in China are taking place now. He makes his point brilliantly, as always, and I agree with its main thrust, but let us not get too optimistic before we close the deal.”
“It is a pleasure to hear from my right hon. and learned Friend and long-term friend, but he is over-interpreting what I have said, I think. Article 50 is the beginning of this process; it is not the end. I know there will be many opportunities for this House to scrutinise what we are about to do after article 50 takes place, but it would be somewhat futile to do so before we start the negotiations, as some of those negotiations will have a direct impact on the very rights that he is talking about. He can take it from me that I did not spend all those years on the Back Benches defending those rights to give them up now.”
“The right hon. Gentleman is absolutely right. The tradition of this country in maintaining strong effective alliances generally for good in the world at large is one that I fully expect will continue. Indeed, one aspect of the picture of the future that I see is that Britain will continue to be a good global citizen, as it always has been. Co-operation on foreign policy is very much a part of that.”
“For as long as we are a member of the European Union, which by the sounds of it will be at least two years, we will meet all our obligations and we will take our responsibilities extremely seriously, including the one that my right hon. Friend has outlined.”
“It is early days to forecast the negotiation, but the right hon. Gentleman is right—there is a large trade surplus. The one that was cited time and again during the referendum campaign, which I do not want to revisit, was the surplus in cars from Germany alone, for example. With countries of the European Union facing economic difficulties, I do not think they will want to create problems for themselves by creating bilateral arrangements that hurt them, so the way I think it will play out is that over the period concerned—probably a couple of years or so—people will start to focus on what their own national interest is. My experience of the European Union is that the Commission makes a great deal of public statements, but at the end of the day the national interest of individual countries decides the outcome.”
“I am pleased to be asked a question by my right hon. Friend. I spent the weekend reading his draft for Open Europe. I did not agree with everything in it, but, as always with him, what he has to say was insightful and wise. I recommend that people read pages 10, 11 and 12 if they do not have a lot of time. My right hon. Friend has a good point on the customs union. Membership of a customs union puts restrictions of varying degrees on what countries can do outside. It would put restrictions on what my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for International Trade is doing, so we have to look at the matter carefully. There is a range of different types of customs union, but that is exactly the sort of decision that we will resolve before we trigger article 50.”
“We and, I think, the Irish Government and all the political parties in Belfast are committed to making sure that it happens.”
“It will primarily require an agreement between London, Belfast and Dublin. Brussels will have a say in some respects, but it is down to us. When I was in Northern Ireland last week, everybody was absolutely clear—all sides, with no political divide and no division of any sort—on the need for an open border and the need to avoid a return to the days of the hard border. There are other open borders, which we will be studying. One of them is Norway/Sweden, but it is not identical. Of course, there was an open border before either of us was a member of the European Union, and we had the common travel area before we were members of the European Union, so there are ways to deal with the issue. Some of them may be technological and some may be political.”
“I am saying that this Government are looking at every option, but the simple truth is that if a requirement of membership is giving up control of our borders, then I think that makes that very improbable. What we are looking for, in the words of the Prime Minister, is a “unique solution” that matches the fact that we are one of the largest trading countries in the world, and also a very large market for very large parts of very important industries in the European Union. I find it very difficult to believe that over the course of the next couple of years or so we will not be able to find an outcome that satisfies not just our own industries but those sponsored by Japan as well.”
“I have already made this pretty plain. All the issues that the hon. Lady names, such as passporting and access to markets, are being looked at and evaluated in terms of where the real risks are. Let me take passporting as an example. I have consulted a number of people in the City on passporting, and I get very different views. The City is not a single business but a sort of ecosystem of businesses, and one gets different views from each of them. Some of them have different solutions too, such as “brass plate” arrangements and so on. We have to assess all that before we decide exactly how we organise the strategy. It is pretty straightforward. As my right hon. Friend the Member for Forest of Dean (Mr Harper) pointed out, it is straightforward, but it is complex to calculate and complex to work out, and we will do that.”
“Friend will well know from his own experience, has plenty on its plate too but will also act in a sympathetic and supportive way to establish all the relationships and build all the alliances that will deliver a positive outcome at the end of these two years.”
“On that last point, when I was still on the Back Benches it would have been very dangerous for any Secretary of State to try to tell Back Benchers how to organise their Select Committees. I would certainly not have accepted it then and I will not fall into that trap now. On the question of relationships with the Foreign Office and the Department for International Trade, we have very clear purposes. Mine is effectively one of support for the Prime Minister, who is the leader of this exercise. The Department for International Trade has the task of exploiting the enormous opportunity this creates and the Foreign Office, as my right hon.”
“It is a pleasure to hear from the hon. Lady, my old ally on other subjects. We have not yet done that calculation, but we will. She crystallises rather well the task we have to do in the next few months— [ Interruption. ] The hon. Member for Islington South and Finsbury (Emily Thornberry) is now trying to give me organisational advice; I suggest she focus on her own party first and worry about us next. The hon. Member for Ochil and South Perthshire (Ms Ahmed-Sheikh) is absolutely right. That impact is exactly the sort of thing we have to assess and we will assess it, and will do it carefully. I intend to deliver on our undertaking that we will ensure that this outcome serves all parts of the United Kingdom.”
“I know that there has been a great revolution in employment law, but I do not think that any of my civil servants are paid by the day. I take my hon. Friend’s point, and we will make sure that we consult widely and do not rely on a single source. This is part of the issue: on so many of the legal and technical issues we deal with, we get different sets of advice from different components of the same industry. The same is true here. That is what we will do; we will resolve it properly before we act.”
“I think that the hon. Lady is misinterpreting what has been said. What we are saying is that there is no point in having a vote in the House on article 50, because all it can do is stop the instruction that the British people have already given us. That is not to say that we will not have debate after debate or that I will not appear before Select Committee after Select Committee. Indeed, I am of course accessible to everybody in this House, from all parties. I do not see that as a barrier to her bringing forward the concerns of her constituents. Indeed, I strongly encourage her to do so as soon as possible.”
“My hon. Friend, who is an old friend of mine, is exactly right. The most successful countries in the world in establishing free trade deals—this might surprise Members—are places such as Chile and South Korea. They never, ever give up anything other than access to their own market in exchange for a free trade deal. Not one of them gives up money or immigration rights.”
“I cannot speak for a future Government—as the hon. Gentleman well knows, that will be beyond the next election—but I promised the hon. Member for Banff and Buchan (Dr Whiteford) that we will put in the Library the Chancellor’s letter underwriting many of the structural funds, research grants and common agricultural policy funds that are already in place. It would be better if he looked at that carefully, rather than rely on my rather inaccurate estimate.”
“The Chancellor made some arrangements that helped underpin the current circumstances. The Student Loans Company has made some arrangements and I saw Universities UK myself the other day to find out what other concerns it has. We are pursuing those concerns, so I do not think that we can be accused of not paying proper attention to that sector. We are very conscious that it is a sensitive sector in these terms. As for the title of my Department, I do not know whether my hon. Friend was the parliamentary wag who called it “Department X”, but thank you very much.”
“The movements of academics—researchers in particular, I guess—in and out of British universities antedates entry to the European Union by a very long margin. Britain is a science superpower standing on our own two feet, and that will continue after we leave the EU.”
“I hope that my hon. Friend was not accusing me of being a member of the remain group. One of the things that I noticed over the summer as I pored over the vast tomes of papers that come with this job was the tendency to blame everything on Brexit, ranging from bank lay-offs to the state of the Italian bond market, which have nothing to do with Brexit. My hon. Friend is right about that, but the simple truth is that we have to get this right. We will do it as expeditiously as possible. We will not delay one day more than is necessary to do the job that we have to do, but it is a complicated and extensive relationship that we have to untangle, and we will do so in good time.”
“I am confident that that can be delivered as long as we get proper, civilised treatment for British citizens abroad—who are, after all, our responsibility too.”
“I will answer the question, but before I do, let me just say this. One of my concerns was that quite a lot of European Union citizens who are in Britain were being unnecessarily frightened by that argument. People should bear it in mind that leave to remain is pretty much automatic, if someone has a clean criminal record, after five years, and that is the case for citizenship after six years. This process is not going to happen for two years, so if someone has been here for three years already, they are in a pretty safe place. Having said that, the Prime Minister and I have both said in terms that we want to provide a generous guarantee to European Union citizens who are already in this country.”
“Somebody on the Front Bench muttered that I should be all right with that; I shall not say who. I demurred from— [ Interruption. ] I beg your pardon, Mr Speaker. I demurred from second-guessing our own negotiating position for six months in respect of the Labour party, and I am going to demur in this case. I will say this to my hon. Friend: the decision of the British people was, I think, first and foremost about control of our own destiny over and above anything else, and that is what we are seeking to return.”
“First, on this issue of detail, the right hon. Gentleman should know well that we are not simply looking at the interests of a limited number of companies and a limited number of banks, which is obviously the issue for the Japanese Government. We are looking at the interests of a whole economy, so it will take just a touch longer. Given his prior experience, he should know that, and he should know it well. In terms of the position with respect to parliamentary approval, I suspect that a great deal of things will be brought before the House during the course of the negotiation, not just at the end. There will be plenty of opportunity both to speak about them and to vote on them.”
“I have said very plainly that we will not trigger article 50 before the end of this year, but we will trigger it as expeditiously as possible. The article 50 process takes two years. Extending it takes unanimity among every other member of the European Union, and my right hon. Friend can make his own judgment about both the probability of that and the arithmetic that it delivers.”
“He said that what I have said today has been rather general, but I have been talking about the process. The Department has 180 people —it has quadrupled during August—and this is a fast-developing process. I mean it to be open, and I asked for a statement on the first day back so that the process can be open to everybody in the House. That is what we will do, and perhaps we will start with him.”
“Let me say two things to the hon. Gentleman. One of them he did not ask about, but I am going to tell him anyway: I take this very seriously. When I talked about the British industrial working class voting for Brexit, it was his sort of seat I had in mind, and I take that very seriously. I take those votes, those people and their lives very seriously indeed, so I will see his group with the specific aim of identifying their concerns and worries about their futures and the prospects and opportunities that go with them. To that end, I will also do what I can to make this process as open as possible. Let me say to the hon. Gentleman that this is a negotiation, and you do not play cards with all of them turned face up, as he will understand. Nevertheless, I will do what I can to make the process as open as possible.”
“That is a very good try. I am sure that, in his youth, my hon. Friend was a great seducer, but I am not going to be seduced. [ Interruption. ]”
“I always listen very carefully to my fellow Yorkshireman. Let me say to the hon. Lady that the reason for the question of article 50 not being put to a vote of the Commons is simply this: I am a great supporter of parliamentary democracy because it is our manifestation of democracy in most circumstances; in this unique circumstance we have 17.5 million direct votes that tell us what to do. I cannot imagine what would happen to the House in the event that it overturned 17.5 million votes. I do not want to bring the House into disrepute by doing that. I want to have the House make decisions that are effective and bite into the process. That is what will happen.”
“My hon. Friend makes a very good point. He has campaigned on this matter for a very long time, I know. All I can say is that he should bear in mind that I am not the Home Secretary. My job is to bring the power back so that the Home Secretary can exercise it. I am quite sure she will listen to what he has said and pay great attention to it.”
“The first point to make is that we have been in the European Union for 40-odd years. The links are very complicated. The effects on much of our society are quite complex, and some of them are quite expensive to replicate. The hon. and learned Lady will get the information she is asking for, but stepwise, as it comes out and as we generate it, and it will be accurate and useful at that point in time. A few months is not going to be a problem for her constituents.”
“I say to my right hon. Friend that he almost does not need to nudge them forward. I am very conscious of the issues relating to the film industry, in particular, which is a very mobile industry in both capital and personnel terms, and is therefore one that we are looking at very soon—indeed, it is the subject of one of the roundtables I was talking about earlier.”
“What I said—and I apologise to the right hon. Gentleman if I misled him—is that I am seeking to get the best possible access. That does not necessarily mean being a member of the single market. As listed earlier, plenty of countries have that access without making the sorts of concessions that we have had to make as a member of the Union.”
“Very much so. One group I met in Northern Ireland was the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland’s new business advisory group, which talked about exactly that. Sadly, we were there on the day of the Caterpillar announcement, which was bad news—it was nothing to do with Brexit but with a problem with markets in the far east. We will have that clearly front and centre.”
“My right hon. Friend is the author of the resurrection line I cited earlier, and I would say a couple of things to him. I am tempted to use Ghandi’s comment about western civilisation. The single market in services would be a good idea, but it is somewhat patchy to say the least, and one major part of the big exercise we are doing is trying to establish exactly what the non-tariff barriers are and where they can and cannot be resolved. I take his point entirely on board. Services is the one area where we have a surplus with Europe, and we want to keep it.”
“One group I have met already is fishermen. The answer to my hon. Friend’s initial question about priority is yes. What form that takes depends on the interests of our fishermen. Because they have interests in other waters, I will not say yes to his second question, but on priority, the answer is yes, absolutely.”
“I take my hon. Friend’s point well, but I am loth to offer free advice to people who are our negotiating partners. That is a central point of their own policy to put right.”
“Let me first deal with the immediate uncertainty and loss of confidence. There was undoubtedly a downward dip in confidence immediately after Brexit, partly because of all the terrible things people said would happen. They have not happened, and confidence is recovering, so let us put that to one side for the moment. On access to markets, I am absolutely on the side of those FSB members. That is what we will seek to do, but we must take on board the fact that the sheer level of immigration into the UK from the European Union has caused social issues, and perhaps economic issues for low-paid workers and the like. We must balance that against the corporate interests—that is what we will do—and try to get the outcome that is best for Britain.”
“What the hon. Lady describes is one of the reasons—it is not the only reason, but it is one of many—for wanting to leave the European Union. Being able to set one’s own tax rate is a fundamental for an independent country. That is what we want to be once more.”
“Yes, but the commissioner is not in a position, frankly, to tell the Secretary of State for International Trade what he can do, subject to meeting European law. European law in this case means not putting a free trade agreement into effect until we leave. That is the limit. In terms of other discussions and negotiations, commissioners have tried to say that we cannot speak to other members of the European Union, which is sort of silly. We are an ongoing member of the European Union and we take our responsibilities seriously. It is implausible that, in our conversations with member states, we will not talk about what is coming next.”
“One aspect of democracy is that one side wins and one side does not win. [Interruption.] Someone from the Labour Front Bench says that young people lost, which is certainly not true. We will see a bigger, greater and more glorious country in future than the one we already have. Just because the hon. Member for Middlesbrough (Andy McDonald) does not understand that does not mean that they lost. To return to the hon. Lady’s point, young people may of course feel at this point that their views did not win the day. I am afraid that that is part of democracy. It is our job to ensure they gain from the outcome of that decision.”
“And 1 million Scots voted to leave. Despite the partisan use of this argument by the Scottish National party for its own interests, the simple truth is that the Scottish view on whether it should have independence has changed not one jot. That is an answer to the hon. Gentleman’s waffle.”
“Sadly, I am not holding my breath for that outcome. What I will say is that the Conservative party is the only party willing to deliver on the people’s decision.”
“The first thing that happened was that the Chancellor underwrote the common agricultural policy payments. That was very important in its own right in terms of confidence for exactly those people. In the discussions on departure from the European Union, and on subsequent agriculture and trade policy, we are discussing exactly those things. We have very much in mind what the hon. Lady is saying.”
“The first premise is returning power to this Government and this Parliament. How they deploy that power is entirely up to them. I would think any sensible Government would be involved in mutually beneficial activity. Israel subscribes to some European research operations and it is nowhere near being a member of the European Union. In those terms, my hon. Friend’s point is well made.”
“I certainly repeat the statement I made in Northern Ireland last week. The soft border or open border—I am not quite sure what the right phrasing is—existed before either of us were members of the European Union. We were separate countries with different VAT and income tax rates. It seems to me entirely possible, given modern technology, that we can do the same, and that we can design an immigration system that is also able to cope. I certainly reiterate in the House what I said in Northern Ireland last week.”
“What it certainly tells us is that the business community is not as afraid of this great new opportunity as was claimed before the referendum. I do not want to re-run the arguments of the leave campaign, but let me say that while market movements in stock markets are volatile, small and often reverse themselves, what do not reverse themselves are large inward investments. In the year in which our party committed to give the referendum, we had the largest inward investment in our history.”
“I do not think that my right hon. Friend was referring to immigration; I suspect he was referring to fishing. What certainly will be the case is that we will take back control of UK fishing rights.”
“Given that my Department did not exist before I arrived in it, it is rather difficult to find documents that relate to what happened beforehand. There was certainly some planning done on the financial side—to deal with any financial turbulence. As we saw, the Bank and the Treasury undertook certain measures. As for the Department itself, I have brushed across it, but the fact that it quadrupled in size in August certainly says something. My hon. Friend will remember from his days as a Parliamentary Private Secretary what Whitehall is like is August—it is empty. We are not short of applicants, and we really have the brightest and the best applying to help us. That applies to the Department for International Trade as well as mine, so my hon. Friend can feel confident about that.”