Bob Blackman
MP for Harrow East · Conservative · United Kingdom
“I hope that the Leader of the House will again provide protected time and prevail on his colleagues not to have too many Government statements, so that we can have a reasonable debate on the subject.”
“Since the changes, we have been inundated with requests from Select Committees to have statements in the House, which I welcome. Next Tuesday, before the two debates that have been scheduled, there will be Select Committee statements on the Treasury and Public Accounts Committee reports.”
“On Tuesday 20 October there will be a debate on manufacturing skills. On Thursday 22 October there will be a debate on compensation for Equitable Life policyholders. I am sure that the whole House will recognise the importance of hospital radio across the country.”
“Many of my constituents work at Heathrow airport. They have had to work extra hours, as the right hon. Member for Hayes and Harlington (John McDonnell) mentioned, and they have suffered abuse, too. I put on record my appreciation for all that they have done. Even more of my constituents use Heathrow for business travel and social travel.”
“I am sure that the Leader of the House will join me in congratulating Radio Brockley on this wonderful anniversary. Perhaps we could have a statement in Government time on the importance of hospital radio in the health service and the benefits it brings to patients and staff.”
“This is a sad day for the UK-Israel relationship, given the risks of what the Foreign Secretary is doing. Affecting the Israeli elections by making even moderate politicians even more hawkish is a huge risk.”
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“Iran represents the biggest threat to peace in the middle east. It controls the Houthis, who attack British shipping; Hamas, who have caused the war in Gaza; and Islamic Jihad and Hezbollah. When they were in opposition, the Government promised that the Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps would be proscribed in its entirety, and its assets sequestrated and used for the benefit of the Iranian people. That was also the settled will of this House, so will the Leader of the House arrange for a debate in Government time to ensure that it becomes the policy of this new Administration, and that we get on with that job, which would be welcomed across the world?”
“I congratulate the right hon. Gentleman on his appointment. Clearly, any delays will in-build a legacy for the victims and their families, who have waited a long time for closure on these issues. I understand absolutely the need to create consensus across Northern Ireland for what will be proposed, but will he set out the timeline and the plan for achieving that and agree to come back to the House to update us when that plan is ready?”
“I congratulate the right hon. Lady on her appointment. One issue that was agreed on a cross-party basis was the campaign that we led on abolishing the Vagrancy Act 1824. We concluded that that change would be beneficial for homeless people because they would no longer face arrest and would be provided with assistance. Will she commit, on behalf of the Government, to introducing that change as part of the legislation?”
“Member for Coventry South (Zarah Sultana), who is still in her place, raised the issue of what is going on in Gaza right now. I noticed that she made no mention of the hostages who are still held by the terrorists and the need for them to be returned. Once that happens, the weight of the world can lead to a cessation of hostilities and, indeed, a peaceful resolution in the middle east.”
“Prior to the election, I was the co-chair of the all-party parliamentary group for the Holocaust memorial and educational centre. The fact is that antisemitism in this country is rife and has grown, and we must combat it at every possible stage. We must also ensure that the memorial and learning centre are placed alongside this building, so that we can demonstrate to the world that we must learn the lessons of what happened during the second world war and the Holocaust, and never allow it to happen again. It is vital that our young people and older people understand the consequences of that, and such work has been done on a cross-party basis. In many ways, it is going to be absolutely vital to work on a cross-party basis. The hon.”
“I was absolutely delighted to hear that they will continue with the tobacco and vapes Bill, which, as many colleagues will know, I have championed through Parliament on many occasions. We had reached the end of its Committee stage, which you will remember, Mr Deputy Speaker, but we did not progress the Bill afterwards. I hope that it will be introduced rapidly, and that we can get it on to the statute book as fast as possible. The hon. Member for Wallasey (Dame Angela Eagle), who is on the Front Bench, will welcome my saying that the football governance Bill needs to be progressed quickly as well, so that we encourage the football clubs that we love to be properly organised and helped. I am also pleased that the Holocaust memorial Bill, which completed its stages in this House, will be enacted as fast as possible.”
“One challenge for the new Government will be very clear: how we deal with the 52,000 illegal migrants who have come to this country, and who would have been going to Rwanda or another place for resettlement. Clearly, there is a decision to be made by the Home Office about what happens to those people, because the previous Government could not return them to their previous country. That will have to happen, and the other challenge will be how we stop this country being a magnet for illegal migration in the first place. We all want to see that happen, and it is vital that it is done. Obviously, we have challenges in other fields, and I welcome the words in the King’s Speech, and indeed the new Prime Minister’s words, about many of the things to be included in the new Government’s programme.”
“Harrow East is, of course, the most multiracial and most multi-religious constituency, and has a greater adherence to religious faith than any other constituency in the country. I am proud to represent people of all faiths and none, and, in particular, the large number who have come from the Commonwealth to live in this country and to live in Harrow East. I am dedicated to serving them to the best of my ability, for as long as they wish me to do so. Given the debate we are having today on the Gracious Speech, there are some things that I want to raise, particularly on home affairs. We have heard from the Home Secretary about the Government’s plans to deal with both legal and illegal migration.”
“I congratulate the new hon. Member for Worthing West (Dr Cooper) on an excellent speech. She will clearly be a force to be reckoned with in this Chamber and beyond, and I wish her well in her parliamentary career. She follows the former Father of the House, so she has big shoes to fill. I thank the good citizens of Harrow East, who have allowed me to return to the House for the fifth time. I am delighted that on what was not a great night for my party, I was able not only to hold my share of the vote but to increase my majority substantially, although sadly I was probably the only Conservative Member to do so. I also thank many colleagues from the opposite side who came to visit my constituency during that time, and enjoyed the hospitality of the residents of Harrow East while at the same time increasing my majority.”
“I will answer the hon. Gentleman’s point before I give way to those on the other side. The reality is that on 7 October, the Jewish people suffered the worst atrocity since the Holocaust. We must remember that that is what happened, but we must also recognise the deprivation that the Palestinians in Gaza are suffering at this point in time. I am sure that the new Government will seek to ensure that justice is brought to all, and that the terrorists are not allowed to thrive or gain. I will move on to one or two other areas.”
“I say gently to colleagues on the Government Front Bench that we agreed, on a cross-party basis, that the pre-recess Adjournment debate in the summer would be forever known as the Sir David Amess pre-recess Adjournment debate. I am disappointed that the Government have chosen not to have a pre-recess Adjournment debate, but they still have time to adjust the timetable accordingly.”
“Equally, we have to recognise that having a secure job that brings in an income is the best route out of poverty. Despite the rhetoric we have heard, the reality is that the last Government created an economic miracle, given the number of jobs created. We created more jobs in this country than the whole of the European Union combined, and the reality is that that is the route we should be pursuing. Finally, when the Prime Minister spoke in the debate on the Gracious Speech, he recognised the late Jo Cox and the late David Amess, both of whom suffered the ultimate problem of being an MP: death in service. We must combat that and make sure that all MPs, regardless of their political position, are safe, secure and able to do their jobs.”
“Equally, we must get the message to our police and crime commissioners, and particularly to the Labour Mayor of London, that more work must be done to combat crime, but also to recruit police officers and make sure that they are properly trained to do the job that they should be doing. I have already discussed the abolition of the Vagrancy Act 1824 with the Home Secretary. As many colleagues will know, I have championed the plight of homeless people in this place. The fact that homeless people still face being criminalised on our streets is a disgrace and an affront to our society. We have tried on several occasions to get the Act removed from the statute book. It should be consigned to the history books as fast as possible, and people should be given the right to have a proper home of their own—one that they can be proud of living in.”
“I will not. The hon. Lady has had a chance to speak already. I will mention some other aspects of Government legislation. Clearly, we have to combat the abuse of women and children, and I will work with colleagues from across the House on that issue. In the last Parliament, I championed women going into refuges so that they can be helped by people outside, rather than having intrusion from public services when they are in desperate circumstances. Of course, we must make sure that the police are properly trained, properly skilled and able to deliver the services provided.”
“Navigating the benefits system is difficult enough for able-bodied people, but for those who become disabled because of illness or accidents, it becomes a virtual nightmare, just at the point when they need the system the most. Also, many employers concentrate on what people cannot do, rather than what they can do. Will my hon. Friend update the House on the work being done to ensure that people, particularly those who suffer disability owing to illness or accidents, receive the benefits that they need at their time of greatest crisis?”
“In exercising that choice, they can look to Wales, where Labour has been in power and a disaster, and to Scotland, where the SNP has been in power and another disaster, but we in London can look even closer at what it has been like to live under the Labour Mayor. I could go through a litany of his disasters, but his latest ruse to improve the air quality in London is to order electric buses from China, even though suitable buses are available in this country and would provide jobs for people here. Will my right hon. Friend set out the choice that people will have come 4 July?”
“Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I pay tribute to you and Dame Rosie for your service to the House, which has been long and very valuable. Colleagues are asking for items to be dealt with in the wash-up, so may I give a big push to my private Member’s Bill? The Zoological Society of London (Leases) Bill, is currently in the Lords, where it has been given its Second Reading, having passed unopposed and unamended in this place. If we could get it into statute, everyone would be grateful. As we approach the 4 July election, it is fair to say that the voters of this country have a choice.”
“I thank my right hon. Friend for the update to the House. In London we have the challenge of the Metropolitan police failing to meet their recruitment targets. The police are under incredible pressure at weekends, policing hate marches and other demonstrations in central London. Police are being drawn in from outside London to carry that out. Now that the mayoral election is over, what action is my right hon. Friend taking with the Mayor of London to ensure that the Met police meet their recruitment targets, and that the police are trained properly and can get on with the job of catching criminals?”
“The Bill disapplies only the relevant sections of the 1900 Act to ensure that it does not block the building of this memorial and learning centre in the gardens. I would say that no place in Britain is more suitable for a memorial and learning centre than the gardens next door to Parliament, the very institution where decisions on Britain’s response in the lead-up to, during and in the aftermath of the Holocaust were made.”
“Planning permission for the memorial and learning centre was granted in 2021, but the High Court ruled in April 2022 that certain sections of the London County Council (Improvements) Act 1900 were an obstacle to construction and therefore quashed the decision to grant planning consent. This Bill is specific in dealing with the restrictions to the siting of the memorial and learning centre. Importantly, it does not grant planning permission, which will still have to go through the normal process. We have heard that some colleagues are concerned about the appropriateness of Victoria Tower Gardens. The reality is that there will still be a requirement for the gardens to remain open to the public.”
“The history is that the then Prime Minister, now the Foreign Secretary, Lord Cameron, had a report from the Holocaust Commission that recommended the construction of a striking and prominent new national memorial to be located in central London. The report recommended that the national memorial should be co-located with a world-class learning centre, so the Bill requires co-location. There is cross-party support. Lord Pickles and Ed Balls, who chaired the commission, committed the Government to providing a site in Victoria Tower Gardens, next door to the Houses of Parliament. I remind colleagues that the 2019 Conservative manifesto committed us to delivering the construction of the planned UK Holocaust memorial.”
“Why, for example, were the train tracks into Auschwitz-Birkenau not bombed? We had the ability to bomb them to prevent many people from being transported. In the Channel Islands, British police officers actually carried out German policies. We have to recognise this and face up to it, and the learning centre will give us that opportunity. There are obviously concerns about the site’s location. I take a strong view that it needs to be alongside the principal democratic institutions of our time, namely, the Houses of Parliament. It is clear that this will be a nationally significant building, and the monument will serve to remember those people who were murdered during the second world war.”
“Of course, there are memorials and centres around the world, including in Washington, Paris, Cape Town, Melbourne, Sydney, Hong Kong, New York, Boston, Berlin and, of course, Jerusalem. Although we were not occupied by the Nazis, we were part and parcel of defeating them. Tens of thousands of Jewish refugees came to this country to make it their home and, of course, our troops liberated Bergen-Belsen and discovered at first hand the horrors of what had happened to the Jewish population, but that saved countless lives. There are concerns, of course, about Britain’s role. We should remember that children were almost orphaned by the end of the war and their parents were denied entry to the United Kingdom. Our role is not always to say how wonderful we are, and some of the decisions taken at that time need to be explored.”
“It is a requirement on our schools to ensure that young people learn about the horrors of the Holocaust and where the ultimate destiny of antisemitism leads. But the reality is that the survivors of the Holocaust are getting frailer by the day and the Holocaust is fading into distant memory, so it is vital that we capture those survivors’ testimony and ensure they have had the opportunity to speak to as many people as possible before they unfortunately pass on. It is therefore vital that we have a permanent national institution to preserve the collective memory of the Holocaust. We have to understand the history, what went on and why the Holocaust happened. It is very difficult to contextualise the systematic murder of 6 million people because they were Jewish. It is tough to impart that.”
“I rise to support the Bill in its entirety and against the amendments, which I think will only delay through prevarication getting the Bill on to the statute books. I declare my interest as co-chairman of the all-party parliamentary group for the Holocaust memorial and learning centre, as well as an ambassador for Yad Vashem in Jerusalem. I think there is universal agreement that there is a need for a Holocaust memorial and that there should be a learning centre as well. It appears to me that the debate today has centred around where this should be located, what conditions should be imposed and the funding for it, which is the subject of the amendments. We in this country are deeply involved in Holocaust education.”
“During his consideration, the planning inspector produced a detailed report with a careful assessment of the impacts on trees, traffic, gardens, playground and all other relevant matters, and then recommended that planning consent be given. The construction phase of the UK Holocaust memorial and learning centre is expected to last around three years. The project team aims to make phased closures and reopenings of different sections of the park to ensure that as much of the park as possible is available for all users while the work carries on to produce this important memorial. The learning centre will include a powerful exhibition that will provide context for the memorial and encourage reflection on the relevance of the Holocaust for Britain today.”
“The new development will take about 7.5% of the site. All the mature London plane trees will be protected, and additional planting and improved drainage of the grassed area will increase the overall attractiveness of the gardens. Alongside the riverside embankment wall, new raised boardwalks will be constructed, helping to make the seating more accessible and making it easier for everyone to enjoy views of the Thames. New pathways will link existing memorials and monuments within the gardens, and additional seating will enhance the visitor experience. The playground will be improved. The objective is to ensure that all current uses can continue after the memorial is constructed. All these matters are fully considered as part of the planning process.”
“I understand that my colleagues are concerned about this, but local residents and workers will be able to visit and enjoy the gardens just as they do now. The Holocaust Memorial Bill lifts restrictions in relation only to Victoria Tower Gardens—no other piece of land—and in relation only to a Holocaust memorial and learning centre, and no other form of development. The Bill does not seek to override the planning process, so all the arguments about the use of the park can be properly considered against the benefits of the memorial. Landscape improvements to Victoria Tower Gardens will ensure that this important and well-used green space, as has been mentioned by my hon. Friend the Member for Cities of London and Westminster (Nickie Aiken), is made more attractive and more accessible than ever before.”
“I thank the Father of the House for that intervention. It is clear that the site was chosen by the commission; it recommended this. The reality is that the development of the planning application followed thereafter, and obviously the impact on the gardens has to be considered. It is right that only Parliament can change the law, and it is right that Parliament should consider whether the unique significance of the Holocaust justifies seeking an exception to the protections it put in place more than 100 years ago. The proposals for the memorial include sensitive landscaping that will improve Victoria Tower Gardens for every user, and more than 90% of the area of the current gardens will remain fully open after the memorial is built.”
“Therefore, the security threats should not be an argument against this memorial; rather, they are an argument for why the memorial is needed in the first place. As I have said, only 7.5% of the land will be taken up by the memorial at the very southern point of the park. There will still be a clear view of Parliament from all other parts of the park. The Buxton memorial has been mentioned, with concerns about overshadowing.”
“I thank my right hon. Friend for that contribution. I am one of those who visited the original Yad Vashem in Jerusalem before it was expanded. Personally, I found the original Yad Vashem even more intimate and poignant than the current Yad Vashem. I understand what my right hon. Friend has to say, but I think this centre will be appropriate for what we are seeking to achieve. One aspect that has been discussed is security. The learning centre will obviously have entry security arrangements similar to other public buildings in Westminster. I know that the Government—I look to the Minister to comment on this when he contributes to the debate—are working with security experts, agencies and the Metropolitan police to develop the necessary level of security measures. Victoria Tower Gardens will continue to be freely accessible to all.”
“My dream is to see this memorial and learning centre finally built and to see the first coachload of school children arrive and ready to learn. That is what it is all about. And, hopefully, those students will learn what happened to me and become beacons of hope in the fight against contemporary antisemitism.” I end by expressing my hope that we can complete the Committee stage of the Bill, get on to Third Reading and usher the Bill rapidly through the House of Lords, so that those brave survivors of the Holocaust will live to see the development of the memorial and the learning centre.”
“Last month I celebrated my 93rd birthday and I pray to be able to attend the opening of this important project.” Sir Ben Helfgott, a Holocaust survivor and an Olympic weightlifter, who sadly passed away last year, wrote in 2021: “I look forward to one day taking my family to the new national memorial and learning centre, telling the story of Britain and the Holocaust. And one day, I hope that my children and grandchildren will take their children and grandchildren, and that they will remember all those who came before them, including my mother, Sara, my sister, Luisa, and my father, Moishe.” Susan Pollack, a Holocaust survivor speaking at a parliamentary reception earlier this month: “I am 93 years old.”
“We owe it to the survivors to get on with the job as quickly as possible. The survivors themselves are asking for that. Harry Bibring spoke to Sky News back in 2017, but sadly passed away a few days after the interview. He said: “I’m very much looking forward to the completion of the new Holocaust Memorial in the Victoria Tower Park next to the Parliament, which we’re going to have a learning centre as well as just a monument and I don’t know whether I’ll live to see it, but it’s in planning stage in Westminster Council and I hope nothing goes wrong”. Manfred Goldberg, a Holocaust survivor said in May 2023: “I was 84 when Prime Minister David Cameron first promised us survivors a national Holocaust Memorial in close proximity to the Houses of Parliament.”
“The memorial will set the Holocaust within a context that includes the history of antisemitism, including in Britain, and of subsequent genocides. There have been multiple consultations with members of the Jewish and survivor communities. At every stage of the planning inquiry, individuals and groups have been able to give written and oral evidence. The planning inspector took great care to allow all voices to be heard at the inquiry and he recorded all evidence in his very detailed report. After taking account of all views, he recommended that planning consent should be granted. Some people say there is no rush. The original proposal was made in 2015; we are now nine years on. Even if the Bill makes rapid progress and the development takes place, the memorial will take longer to develop than the extent of the Holocaust.”
“Supporters of having the memorial on this site include the Chief Rabbi, the president of the Board of Deputies of British Jews, the chair of the Jewish Leadership Council and chief executive of the Holocaust Educational Trust, to name but a few, plus many Holocaust survivors. The funds assigned to the project are for a Holocaust memorial. The funds have not been diverted from educational budgets and there is no reason to think that abandoning the memorial would mean funds being reassigned to any other project. The Jewish Museum was not consulted before the joint letter from different members of the Jewish community was written, but the museum plans to reopen in a central London location in the near future, so its concerns should be noted. The aims of the memorial and the Jewish Museum are complementary, but not the same.”
“On the issue of antisemitism, I do not think anyone would claim this memorial will be the answer to solving more than 2,000 years of antisemitism. However, it will be a reminder to those in the Houses of Parliament of the potential to abuse democratic institutions to murderous consequences, in stark contrast to the true role of democracy in standing up and combating racism, hatred and prejudice wherever it is found. Some hon. Members have suggested that certain members of the Jewish community do not support the proposed site. As everyone knows, the Jewish community is not a homogeneous group and there will be multiple differences of opinions, as within any community.”
“We can debate whether the figure is 7.5% or 10%, but the key point is that more than 90% of the park will be preserved. The plan for the memorial is that it will be no higher than the Buxton memorial and its bronze fins will step down progressively to the east, in visual deference to the Buxton memorial. The memorial was designed by Ron Arad specifically for Victoria Tower Gardens. Some suggestions have been made about the Imperial War Museum. To my knowledge, the Imperial War Museum supports the memorial being situated in Victoria Tower Gardens and has no wish for the memorial to be built in its grounds. A detailed flood risk assessment was prepared as part of the planning application. It concluded that Victoria Tower Gardens is heavily protected by the River Thames flood defences, significantly reducing the risk of flooding on site.”
“My hon. Friend will clearly be aware that when the original proposals were put forward back in 2015-16, the design of the memorial and the education and learning centre had not been considered. Therefore the budget that was set then, before the design work was done, was clearly going to be inadequate for the type of facility that we are talking about. Given that we are in those circumstances, he is right that we will need to take a clear position on keeping to costs and keeping to the contract prices. Equally, there is the provision of private sector investment, to which my hon. Friend will no doubt refer. Does he agree with me that, in all these developments, until such time as spades go in the ground, investors are very unlikely to make contributions until they see something really happening.”
“I thank the Minister and the successive Ministers who have taken this Bill through the House to enable us to have a learning centre and memorial. I also thank the Holocaust Memorial Day Trust, the Holocaust Educational Trust and all those wonderful bodies that have agitated for this to happen, and who deliver education and learning every single day. On a cross-party basis, the House can bless this Bill as we enable it to get on the statute books; I am sure the House of Lords will bless it as well. We want to ensure that it becomes a lasting memorial and an education for young people, so that we never forget what happened during the second world war.”
“In the short time available, we should remember that the Holocaust represents the darkest hour in human history, when 6 million Jewish people were systematically murdered by the Nazis. Above all else, the thing that impresses me about the survivors is their lack of bitterness. It would be very easy for them to be very bitter and very angry about what happened, but they give their thoughts and their education freely and without bitterness. That is the key point. As the survivors pass away, we must ensure that we capture their testimony so that it is always available. I regret that, when I was at school, we had no education on the Holocaust. Our generation was largely ignorant. The Jewish population of this country largely did not want to talk about what had happened for fear of not being believed. Education is vital.”
“Clearly it is important to have a mixed economy in terms of energy production, and nuclear has to play its part. What action is my hon. Friend taking to ensure that the development of small modular nuclear reactors is enhanced and brought forward, because that is the fastest way to get nuclear energy into our network?”
“9. Whether he has made an assessment of the adequacy of military resources allocated by the UK to Operation Shader to help deter Iranian attacks.”
“I thank my hon. Friend for that answer. Clearly, the brave resistance fighters in Iran will be celebrating the demise of the Butcher of Tehran today. Iran controls Hamas, Hezbollah and other terrorist organisations. Given the attack by Iran on Israel, what further assessment has my hon. Friend made of the potential for Iran to launch another attack?”
“T7. I warmly welcome the Government’s commitment to spend 2.5% of GDP on defence spending, but after we have won the next general election, growth will come to the economy and there will be much more money to be spent on defence? How would my right hon. Friends spend that money in the defence of the realm?”
“I beg to move amendment 24, in clause 79, page 42, line 16, leave out “and 8” and insert “, 8 and ( age verification policy )”. This amendment to the commencement provisions would mean that NC6 (age verification policy in England and Wales) would come into force six months after Royal Assent.”
“As the explanatory notes to the Tobacco and Vapes Bill set out, the Bill updates the Scottish legislation to ensure that age verification is consistently and appropriately applied in line with the new age of sale restrictions for tobacco products, herbal smoking products and cigarette papers. Ensuring consistency in the application of age verification is just as important for the other nations of the United Kingdom as it is for Scotland. Why should the Scots have this and not the rest of the United Kingdom?”
“A voluntary scheme such as Challenge 25 is by definition inconsistent in its application, leaving some customers unsure about whether they will need to provide proof of age. Seeking verification for anyone who looks under 25 is in line with the legislation for alcohol and is supported by retailers and by the Association of Convenience Stores. One of the key challenges we face in this Bill is that of workers in retail units challenging people about whether they are old enough to buy such products. The new clause would make it clear that they have a requirement to do so, which would be a good defence for them when they are challenged by their customers.”
“A survey of independent UK tobacco retailers for Action on Smoking and Health in 2022 found that 83% supported the introduction of mandatory age verification for anyone aged under 25, with only 5% opposing it, and 91% supported it in Scotland, where it is already in force, with only 4% opposed to it. I think we should take a lead from our colleagues in Scotland on this particular issue. The Scottish legislation is supported by guidance from the Scottish Government and the Government worked with trade bodies to ensure that retailers understood it. The Scottish legislation provides a legal underpinning to the voluntary Challenge 25 scheme, which operates in the rest of the United Kingdom.”
“I rise to support the amendment and new clause tabled in my name. I will save the Committee time and will not go through the amendment in detail, because obviously colleagues have it in front of them. The key point is that the new clause would introduce a requirement on tobacco, herbal smoking or vaping product businesses to operate an age verification policy, covering steps to be taken to establish the age of persons attempting to buy tobacco, herbal smoking or vaping products or cigarette papers. It reflects that which is already in place in Scotland, where mandatory age verification has been a legal requirement for tobacco and vapes since 2017.”