Bob Blackman
MP for Harrow East · Conservative · United Kingdom
“I hope that the Leader of the House will again provide protected time and prevail on his colleagues not to have too many Government statements, so that we can have a reasonable debate on the subject.”
“Since the changes, we have been inundated with requests from Select Committees to have statements in the House, which I welcome. Next Tuesday, before the two debates that have been scheduled, there will be Select Committee statements on the Treasury and Public Accounts Committee reports.”
“On Tuesday 20 October there will be a debate on manufacturing skills. On Thursday 22 October there will be a debate on compensation for Equitable Life policyholders. I am sure that the whole House will recognise the importance of hospital radio across the country.”
“Many of my constituents work at Heathrow airport. They have had to work extra hours, as the right hon. Member for Hayes and Harlington (John McDonnell) mentioned, and they have suffered abuse, too. I put on record my appreciation for all that they have done. Even more of my constituents use Heathrow for business travel and social travel.”
“I am sure that the Leader of the House will join me in congratulating Radio Brockley on this wonderful anniversary. Perhaps we could have a statement in Government time on the importance of hospital radio in the health service and the benefits it brings to patients and staff.”
“This is a sad day for the UK-Israel relationship, given the risks of what the Foreign Secretary is doing. Affecting the Israeli elections by making even moderate politicians even more hawkish is a huge risk.”
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“However, I know from experience it will be easier for retailers to implement if age verification was required from anyone trying to buy tobacco who appeared to be underage. This won’t apply to existing adult social smokers only to those who look as though they were born after 2008. It’s popular with the public as well as with retailers and it will be a legal requirement in Scotland, so why not the whole of the UK?””
“I thank the hon. Lady for that intervention. I am always willing to praise people who do the right thing. Unfortunately the SNP Government do not always do the right thing, as many of us know. Extending the requirements for Scotland to the rest of the United Kingdom is supported by the vast majority of the general public and of retailers surveyed by ASH in 2024. To quote John McClurey, a retired tobacco retailer from Newcastle who, during his 39 years as a small shop owner, successfully implemented the increase in the age of sale from 16 to 18, putting tobacco out of sight in his shops and introducing standardised packaging of tobacco products: “Like the communities they serve, retailers support creating a smokefree generation by raising the age of sale one year every year from 2027 onwards.”
“One of the clear concerns expressed by retailers—not necessarily the owners of shops but the staff who work in them and sell the products—is that if they can turn round to customers and say, “Look, it’s the law. I’ve got to ask you for your age verification. It is not something I can choose not to do; I have to do it,” that would strengthen their position. It would prevent arguments when they say, “I think you look under 25,” or “I think you look under 21.” That would strengthen their arm and make sure they abide by the law.”
“Given the Minister’s answer, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. Clause 79 ordered to stand part of the Bill. Clause 80 Transitional provision Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.”
“I do not want in any shape or form to impede the progress of this legislation, but I do want to get on record that I will continue to press for this provision, even if it is not agreed today, because I think it will bring into the health service much-needed money from big tobacco to help combat the impact of its products.”
“Friend the Minister might be concerned that the measure might delay the Bill, but the clear intention is to give the Secretary of State the power to conduct such a consultation; it would not prevent the Bill from going on to the statute book or from being enacted. There has been a lot of debate over this issue for a long time. The Treasury appears to decline to do anything in this regard for some reason, but in my view, and that of the all-party parliamentary group, it is clear that this consultation could be done. The money raised from any such regulation could be directed at the national health service for smoking cessation services and to combat the effects of tobacco and other products, ensuring that people who wanted to quit could be assisted to quit. I would welcome the Minister’s views.”
“I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time. The clause stands in my name and the names of other hon. Members. Clearly, its concern is consultation on proposals for the regulation of profits from big tobacco —a recommendation of the all-party parliamentary group and of Javed Khan’s excellent report. The provision is designed to look at the profits of big tobacco, but big tobacco would not be allowed to pass on any calculated levy to its end customers. At the moment, it makes a veritable fortune every single year from selling its products. The new clause would limit big tobacco’s profits and, in doing so, its ability to market its products, but there would be no impact on, for example, tobacco taxation. My right hon.”
“Friend will want to look at—if not today, because obviously we do not want to add to the complexity of the Bill, then in the future.”
“If I may, my right hon. Friend must have smoked for only a brief period because she certainly does not look old. Most of what she said was about the end customer and the cost to the end customer. Every time the Government raise tobacco duty, that makes the price for the end customer more expensive. What we are talking about is a levy on the profits of the big tobacco companies, which they would not be allowed to pass on to the end customer by increasing the price. That reduces their profit and potential to inflict more damage on the health of the country—that is what we are looking at. It is estimated that £700 million could be raised through such a levy. Of course, that would be only a dent in their profits, frankly, but it could be directed towards public health measures. Surely that is something that my right hon.”
“I beg to ask leave to withdraw the motion. Clause, by leave, withdrawn. New Clause 3 Notification fees “The Secretary of State may by regulations vary notification fees for novel tobacco, vaping and other nicotine products in order to include costs of enforcement and testing.”— (Bob Blackman.) This new clause would enable the Secretary of State to vary the level of notification fees collected by the competent authorities in order that fees may be used to cover the costs of enforcement including product testing. Brought up, and read the First time .”
“New clause 3 would future-proof elements of the notification fees, raise some money and act as a barrier, frankly, to companies trying to flex their products to avoid the whole point of the legislation, which is to create a smoke-free generation and prevent young people from starting to vape. The Committee has already heard about the attitude and approaches being taken, particularly now by vaping companies, to market their products. The new clause would give power to the Secretary of State to do something about it by preventing those companies from bringing products in that no one wants to see on the market.”
“I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time. It is my show this afternoon! New clause 3 looks at the notification fees collected by the authorities, so that fees can be used to cover the costs of enforcement, including product testing. It would enable the Secretary of State to change those fees by regulation, and to look at what big tobacco and the vaping industry are doing to introduce novel products. We have talked throughout the Committee about the ability of tobacco and vaping companies to vary their products considerably. We are of course trying to ensure that we capture everything we can so that we future-proof the legislation.”
“I beg to ask leave to withdraw the motion. Clause, by leave, withdrawn. New Clause 7 Retail licence for sale of tobacco, vaping and nicotine products “(1) The Health Act 2006 is amended as follows. (2) After section 13 (Power to amend age for sale of tobacco etc.) insert— “13A Retail licence for sale of tobacco, vaping and nicotine products The Secretary of State may by regulations introduce a scheme in England to require a person to obtain a licence before selling tobacco, e-cigarettes, novel nicotine products and related goods.””— (Bob Blackman.) This new clause would enable the Secretary of State to introduce by regulation schemes to require the licensing of sale of tobacco, vaping or nicotine products. Brought up, and read the First time.”
“The two new clauses would get us to a position whereby there would be a requirement for the proper regulation of those markets. I know that the intent behind the Bill is to create a smoke-free generation, but we are taking on the vaping issue as well. At this stage, we propose that, if such a scheme were to be introduced, the Secretary of State would need to consult on those issues. I do not intend to prevent the Bill from progressing, but the Secretary of State will need to consider these things, whether during the later stages of the Bill or subsequently.”
“There is of course the issue that this could limit the number of retailers that would be able to sell such products. One concern that I have in this regard is not so much on tobacco but on vaping. We have seen, up and down the country, the rapid growth of stores selling just vaping products. They have—without doubt, without question—been selling to younger people, and we are concerned about the rapid growth of those particular areas. There has been quite considerable legislation limiting tobacco sales over the years. We can go back over the age of sale. We can talk about the advertising displays. We can talk about keeping the products literally behind shutters so that people have to ask for the products rather than their being openly and clearly available.”
“There is a degree of repetition in this. New clauses 7 and 8 relate to where tobacco products are sold and the licensing of them. There is a genuine debate, in both the industry and the House, about whether we should have a licensing scheme for tobacco, vaping and other nicotine products. These two new clauses would allow the Secretary of State to introduce regulations both on a licensing scheme and to limit the products that would be made available for sale in particular premises. The whole purpose behind this provision would be to say that the individuals who are selling these products would have to apply for a licence. Presumably, after a consultation, there would be a licence fee. That would add to the ability of the enforcement agencies to know that these products were properly licensed and being sold from licensed premises.”
“(6) The day specified may not be later than 1 June 2026.”— (Kirsten Oswald.) Brought up, and read the First time.”
“(3) A person does not commit an offence under this section— (a) where it is alleged that the purpose of what was done as a result of the agreement was to promote a vaping substance containing nicotine in the United Kingdom, if the person did not know, and had no reason to suspect, that that was its purpose, or (b) where it is alleged that the effect of what was done as a result of the agreement was to promote a vaping substance containing nicotine in the United Kingdom, if the person could not reasonably have foreseen that that would be its effect. (4) A person does not commit an offence under this section if he did not know and had no reason to suspect that the contribution referred to in subsection (2) was made in the course of business. (5) This section comes into force on such day as the Secretary of State may by order appoint.”
“I beg to ask leave to withdraw the motion. Clause, by leave, withdrawn. New Clause 9 Prohibition of sponsorship: vaping substances containing nicotine “(1) A person who is party to a sponsorship agreement is guilty of an offence if the purpose or effect of anything done as a result of the agreement is to promote a vaping substance containing nicotine in the United Kingdom. (2) A sponsorship agreement is an agreement under which, in the course of business, a party to it makes a contribution towards something, whether the contribution is in money or takes any other form (for example, the provision of services or of contributions in kind).”
“If it is serious about encouraging people to quit smoking, it needs to develop a product that doctors can prescribe and help people to quit smoking. If it is not going to develop that product, that demonstrates that all it is trying to do is to hook people on to nicotine.”
“As I said this morning, 7.6% of young people aged 11 to 17 are regularly vaping. That is a serious concern, because they will be addicted to nicotine and will probably have to escalate their nicotine demand as time goes on. My concern is that the new clause does not go far enough. The hon. Lady has raised the issue on several occasions, and is rightly banging the drum. I agree with her: it is a disgrace. I think I am right in saying that Blackburn Rovers football club just agreed a sponsorship deal for their shirts with a vaping product, which is a great shame, but it has chosen to do that. The chief medical officer also said that, right now, the vaping industry does not have a product that doctors could prescribe to help people to quit smoking. That is a challenge for the industry.”
“I thank the hon. Lady for tabling the new clause. We will come to further new clauses that deal with advertising for vaping products. We are clearly now in the position whereby if anyone suggested that football teams should have tobacco advertising on their shirts, they would be laughed out of court. That is equally true in all the other circumstances that the hon. Lady described. I have a lot of sympathy with this proposal, but I am slightly concerned that it is limited to particular sporting events. In my view, we need a comprehensive ban on the promotion of vaping products. When the chief medical officer gave evidence to the Committee, he rightly said that if you smoke, it is safer to vape, but do not take up vaping. We should not be allowing vaping companies to advertise their wares, particularly to younger people.”
“I have a lot of sympathy with what the hon. Lady asks for. I ask my right hon. Friend the Minister, in dealing with this new clause and the other new clauses about advertising, to go away and come up with a comprehensive series of amendments that will ban advertising for vaping products in their entirety—not just in sports stadiums and not just on sports shirts, but comprehensively, right across the piece. We can then all support that and make sure we deliver it in the Bill.”
“Pack inserts were first proposed by the all-party parliamentary group on smoking and health in our 2021 report, that recommendation was also endorsed by Javed Khan in 2022, and the Government consulted on their introduction in a consultation that closed on 10 October 2023. I am sure my right hon. Friend the Minister will be well aware that the Government’s own guidelines state: “Government responses to consultations should be published in a timely fashion”, which is defined as “within 12 weeks of the consultation”, or they should “provide an explanation why this is not possible.” It is disappointing that, more than seven months after the consultation closed, the Government have still not published their response or given a reason for not doing so.”
“89, Q129.] This year, my noble Friend in the other House, Lord Young, will have been in Parliament for 50 years—50 years in which he has fought long and hard to end the blight that smoking leaves on society. It would be a just tribute to his efforts if the Government committed to implement this policy, which he first called for more than 30 years ago. Tobacco manufacturers already print on to cigarette papers, so it would be cheap and easy to implement. New clause 4, on mandatory health information inside tobacco products, would commit the Government to consult again on draft regulations to require mandatory pack inserts containing health information such as quit messaging.”
“For the prospective patient, the answer may not be cure by incision at the operating table, but prevention by decision at the Cabinet table…Historically, a nation would look to its doctors for better health. Now they should look to their Members of Parliament.” Professor Sir Stephen Powis, the national medical director of NHS England, echoed Lord Young’s comments when he said to this Committee that the legislation we are considering is “possibly the most important” piece of legislation since Parliament passed the National Health Service Act 1946, which led to the formation of the NHS on 5 July 1948. In his view, the legislation that we are considering is “one of the most important—possibly the most important—pieces of legislation since the passage of that Act.” –– [ Official Report, Tobacco and Vapes Public Bill Committee, 1 May 2024; c.”
“Our proposal is not new. It was first proposed by the all-party parliamentary group on smoking and health, of which I am the chairman, in our 2021 report and recommendations to the Government. Importantly, our recommendation was endorsed by Javed Khan in his 2022 report. It is one recommendation that has not, thus far, been included in the Bill. This is not even a novel policy. My noble Friend in the other place, Lord Young of Cookham, first proposed cigarette warnings when he was a Health Minister in Margaret Thatcher’s Government—a great Government at the time. His statement at the 1979 world conference on tobacco and health bears repeating. He said: “The solution to many of today’s medical problems will not be found in the research laboratories of our hospitals, but in our Parliaments.”
“It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship once again, Sir Gary. I rise to speak in favour of the measures that I and other colleagues on the Committee have proposed. Amendments 22 and 23 are essential consequential amendments that seek to introduce markings on cigarette papers and to define cigarette papers so that that is clear in the law. I am interested in the Minister’s view of our proposals. We seek to make sure that health warnings can be put literally on to the cigarettes and other tobacco products themselves, rather than just on the packs. New clause 5 is intended to look at mandatory health warnings on cigarettes and rolling papers, and at the regulations that would need to be rolled out and consulted on among tobacco manufacturers. It would enable us to have a consultation, rather than to change the law immediately.”
“Will the Minister, in her response, either accept amendment 21 or to come back with further consequential amendments, which will ensure that the Secretary of State has the powers that we know will be needed, because the industry will evolve and change its products. The industry will look at the Bill when it becomes an Act, and the risk is that we will have to come back and look at this again.”
“The wording of clause 63(1)(f) as drafted limits revision to features that “distinguish between different brands”, and could potentially exclude revision to generic standards such as capacity of refills, cartridges and pods, and nicotine delivery. The standards in the TRPR were developed for e-cigarettes only in the EU tobacco products directive back in 2013. Vaping and nicotine products have evolved considerably over the past 11 years, and they will continue to evolve, so it is vital that the Secretary of State has powers to revise the standards. The change I propose is not to the intent of the clause; it is merely a clarification to ensure that there is no risk of limiting the powers of the Secretary of State only to characteristics that are brand-specific.”
“I rise to speak to amendment 21, which I tabled with other hon. Members. It seeks to regulate vaping product standards and is vital to the Bill. The amendment allows for changes to other features of vaping or nicotine products, as set out in regulation 36 of the Tobacco and Related Products Regulations 2016, which at the moment do not distinguish between the differences among brands, such as capacity of refills, cartridges or pods, and nicotine delivery. My amendment would ensure that the Secretary of State has powers to revise generic product requirements, as set out in regulation 36 of the TRPR. Importantly, my measure would be permissive, rather than a requirement.”
“I hope that as the Bill progresses we can resist further proposals that might seek to remove this measure from the Bill.”
“74, Q103.] Indeed, literally overnight Action on Smoking and Health has published data showing that youth vaping has stabilised. That is the good news. The bad news is that 7.6% of 11 to 17-year-olds regularly vape. That is above the pre-pandemic level of 4.4%, so it has almost doubled since then. Young people are being encouraged to become addicted to vaping and will potentially go on to even more harmful products. Exposure to marketing is also up. Some 55% of young people are exposed to vaping in shops, where vapes are on full display, and nearly a third are exposed to vaping online, so we need to take action. The measures in the Bill, particularly in this clause, will make starting to vape far less attractive to young people. That is why it is essential that it remains part of the Bill.”
“I rise in support of clause 62, noting the two amendments proposed by a Member not on the Committee that would have removed the power of the Secretary of State to deal with flavours. I consider it vital that the Secretary of State can make regulations about flavours of vaping products and nicotine products. As has been said, this is a much-needed power to help curb youth vaping. The chief medical officer Sir Chris Whitty spoke very strongly when giving evidence to the Committee. He said: “We are strongly supportive of Ministers in all four nations having the power to regulate flavours…We know that otherwise the vape industry will use this to essentially drive a coach and horses through the aims of the Bill, which is to make products less attractive to children”. –– [ Official Report, Tobacco and Vapes Public Bill Committee, 1 May 2024; c.”
“Clearly, providing safe and secure accommodation for ex-offenders when they leave prison is the first and most important part of getting them on the path to rebuilding their lives. What action is my right hon. and learned Friend taking to ensure that that happens, so that people are not tempted to reoffend?”
“I thank my right hon. Friend for the speech she is making and of course I absolutely support all the measures in the Bill. One concern, which I think was raised on Second Reading, about paan and chewing tobacco is that they are currently not specified very clearly in the Bill. Is she planning to introduce any further measures, either in Committee or in regulation, to address this concern? One of the problems is that at the moment those products are freely sold in a range of different environments.”
“I do not want to go on for a long time; I am delighted with the Bill. I have been campaigning for this sort of action for many years, so it is a delight to see. We need to get it on the statute book as fast as possible.”
“After that, there is no choice because one is addicted and therefore required to continue to fuel that addiction. It is vital that we create this smoke-free generation. One of the fundamental issues is enforcement rules and premises—I know we will come to that, so I will not pre-judge it, but this will be key. One of my concerns —I ask the Minister to think about this—is what will happen about duty-free sales and provisions that, at the moment, are outside the scope of the Bill. There will be temptations for young people on trips abroad to buy cigarettes, either abroad or at duty-free, and bring them back, or for others to do so and provide them to young people. Clearly, we would all want that to be an offence, but as I read the Bill, the provisions do not cover that. We need to think about strengthening the legislation in that area.”
“It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Dame Siobhain. I rise to support the proposals outlined by the Minister. It came as quite a shock that one of the recommendations of the Khan review was that the age-of-sale be raised by a year every year. We on the all-party group on smoking and health —I declare my interest—thought that we would end up simply raising the age from 18 to 21, but I am delighted that we have moved from that position to one of literally creating a smoke-free generation. The key point will always be free choice—the free choice that is made is to smoke that first cigarette; after that, the individual is addicted. To colleagues of mine who may be listening or considering this as an issue of freedom of choice, I say that one only makes one choice.”
“We have to consider the various tactics used by big tobacco. I campaigned long and hard for the standardised packaging of tobacco products, which was finally achieved, and one of my concerns then was the way that packaging is used to attract young people to start smoking. I support the provisions, but one concern might be that big tobacco will respond by reducing the number of cigarettes in a pack and selling them at a cheaper price. Will there be regulations to ensure that, for example, companies cannot sell them in single packs? We have to think about what these evil people will do to sell and push their product. Very simply, can we look at something to ensure that they cannot do that?”
“One issue that has been raised in the debate is non-nicotine vapes and the potential to get people on to vaping, followed by the escalation, presumably, to nicotine and then, potentially, as has been mentioned, to cigarettes. What action will my right hon. Friend take—although not necessarily in these clauses—to make sure that that escalation path cannot be followed?”
“Does the hon. Lady not accept the counter-argument that putting things in the Bill means that we have to change primary legislation, but that by doing things via regulations, the Government can make changes in a speedy fashion and combat big tobacco’s fleetness of foot in bringing terribly addictive new products to the market?”
“One of the challenges we are talking about is not only nicotine itself—we had medical evidence last week to suggest the damage it does to the body, let alone its delivery mechanisms—but the mixture of different routes by which it gets into the body. At the moment, evidence is emerging about the damage from the use of different accelerants to get nicotine into the body. Will the Minister consider what may need to be done about those particular types of chemicals and other methods that may need regulation to outlaw them, because of the damage that they do particularly to children and to all other vapers?”
“I thank my right hon. Friend for explaining the nature of these various different measures. I think retailers will have a concern about, for example, where a manager or an errant individual breaches these rules and is therefore subject to action, what actions the retailer can then take to alleviate the challenge afterwards. For example, if the person is dismissed or is told they are no longer welcome on the premises, will that be sufficient, or will it have to be a case of serving a time before such premises can be brought back into action? Obviously, retailers will want to know what they must do to comply with not only the letter but the spirit of the law.”
“Under these powers, will trading standards officers have the opportunity to look at those products and take action against retailers who are clearly selling products whose contents clearly do not accord with what should be in them?”
“I want to put one issue to the Minister before she sums up these clauses. Obviously, the overwhelming number of retailers will wish to conform to the rules and regulations under which they exist. On re-reading the Bill, I notice that it does not cover the contents of products. For example, we have cited the issue of so-called nicotine-free products that contain nicotine and, indeed, many other products that may have different amounts of nicotine from what is stated. We hear anecdotally of some suppliers wanting to reduce the amount of nicotine in vapes to get people to buy more of them because the nicotine hit is insufficient.”
“I always seek a spirit of compromise in such circumstances. At the moment, the Bill states: “The amount specified in a fixed penalty notice must be £100.” I am concerned about how that could be altered by regulation. Clearly, a consultation or other measures might be needed. A relatively simple amendment could have the clause state that the fixed penalty must be a minimum of £100 and can be varied by regulation. Will the Minister consider that as not necessarily an amendment today, but as something she might consider taking forward so that we can satisfy all sides?”
“Today, we have had the excellent news that Harrow has been allocated Government funding for a new special educational needs school—something that has been campaigned for by the Conservative-run council, the officials and the teachers and parents of Harrow for a considerable length of time. I am sure that my right hon. Friend will join me in congratulating all those responsible on obtaining this. Can we have a debate in Government time on the brilliant work that our teachers and support staff do in special educational needs environments, in very challenging circumstances, with a lot of very challenging children?”
“6. What recent discussions he has had with the Cabinet Secretary for North Wales and Transport on the impact of the 20 mph speed limit on residential roads and pedestrian streets in Wales on road users.”
“I thank my right hon. Friend for his answer. Clearly, there is a strong case for 20 mph limits outside schools, in shopping areas and in other areas where there is huge pedestrian activity, but a blanket ban is outrageous. Has he any detail as to the cost to the Welsh economy of this extremely damaging move, and, indeed, the cost of implementing it across Wales in such a blanket fashion?”