John Healey
MP for Rawmarsh and Conisbrough · Labour · United Kingdom
“Mr Spock, I think some would say, Mr Speaker! My hon. Friend is right. Despite global conflicts, trade tensions and rising threats in the world, which are pushing up inflation, bearing down on growth and pushing up borrowing costs, the UK economy is demonstrating huge resilience.”
“The Prime Minister and I have been clear that we must cut the costs of welfare. On levels of taxation, we had a period of Conservative Government, with low growth and high debt. They crashed the economy with the mini-Budget, and we had levels of taxation that were putting pressure on business, adding to the cost of living.”
“The hon. Lady is talking to the person who led the work to establish a defence and security partnership with the European Union and bilateral agreements with other countries, on which we now build both our economic strength and our national security strength. On the question of the Budget, I ask the hon.”
“Since day one in the job, the Prime Minister and I have been in lockstep in our determination to meet Britain’s fiscal rules. This is the bedrock on which we build good growth and help give a bit of breathing space to families and businesses.”
“May I start by paying tribute to my predecessor, my right hon. Friend the Member for Leeds West and Pudsey (Rachel Reeves)? I am proud to have been a member of a Government with the first female Chancellor in 700 years.”
“My hon. Friend speaks up very strongly for his local area. He is right about the importance of pubs, social clubs and live venues, and about the importance of the 20% cut that we announced in July. These are the things that make the places where we live the places that we also love.”
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“I welcome this debate and I also welcome its timing, because 2015 will be a critical year for the British steel industry. At the heart of the motion is a call for the Government to recognise the importance of the industry in the UK and to work with it and the trade unions to come up with a co-ordinated plan for its future. I hope that this debate will help to achieve that aim. The general secretary of the Community union, Roy Rickhuss, captured the imperative that faces us very well when he said: “UK steel companies and their workers need a government that is prepared to intervene to support us on areas like energy, tax and procurement, just as they do in France and Germany”. That is what we are looking for from Ministers today.”
“We need the Secretary of State to commit his Government to bringing in, once state aid clearance is achieved, help with the cost of the renewables obligation—that is imperative. We need help and a promise to negotiate a good transatlantic trade deal which benefits the metals industry and many of its user industries and deals with some of the problems associated with restricted procurement practices arising through the “Buy America” regime. Finally, we need to see a commitment to using any local economic benefit clauses that can be put in place in public procurement. Just as there is common ground in the industry among companies and the trade unions on the future of the industry and what is needed, we need in this House, from today’s debate, common ground among the parties.”
“Weak demand is always a problem for an industry such as the steel industry. Although in the past year UK demand for steel has increased by 15%, most of that has been supplied by imported steel, not UK-produced steel—that is what we have to change. It is the high energy prices that pose the risk of pricing British steel-making out of business. The full cost of energy for large energy-intensive users, such as steel makers, is €77 per megawatt-hour in the UK, which compares with €49 in France, €38 in the US and €33 in Germany. Of course when high-end products go through several processes—melting, casting, re-melting, rolling and finishing—that premium and extra cost is multiplied.”
“The Secretary of State did not answer the question put by my hon. Friend the Member for Houghton and Sunderland South (Bridget Phillipson). Surely the unprecedented problems we are now seeing in A and E and the wider NHS can be traced back directly to the risks of the huge top-down reorganisation, which were set out for Ministers in November 2010, but ignored. One of the current Ministers and his predecessor said, as reported in the House: “We have every intention of publishing the risk register in due course, when we think the time is right.” —[ Official Report , 10 May 2012; Vol. 545, c. 156.] Four years on, will the Secretary of State now publish this risk register and let people see for themselves what warnings he was given about current problems and how far he has been hiding the truth on the NHS?”
“When the Minister makes the announcement, will he recognise that many of the most severely disabled people, who depend on the independent living fund, flourish with the independence it gives them? The fund is being wound up in March and they are very frightened that they will lose that independence. Will he review the protection available, even at this eleventh hour, and ensure that councils can continue ILF provision in full?”
“I applaud the way in which my right hon. Friend is contesting the regulations, because Labour Members simply cannot accept them when they fail to protect the public and needlessly put firefighters at risk. The Minister told the House earlier today that she will guarantee an unreduced pension to those firefighters who, through no fault of their own, face dismissal because they cannot meet the fitness standards, but the regulations do not provide that guarantee. Does my right hon. Friend also recognise that the firefighters themselves were told by the Minister during the negotiations that that would be the case, so they have been let down directly by the regulations?”
“9. What legal costs his Department has incurred in legal proceedings involving disabled people relating to the under-occupancy penalty and the closure of the independent living fund.”
“That is a part answer to a very direct question about the cost to the taxpayers of Government lawyers defending the indefensible—axing the ILF and introducing the hated bedroom tax. Will the Minister not recognise that many severely disabled people flourish with the fund but are now frightened of losing their independence when he shuts it down next year? He might have won the legal case this year, but he has lost the moral and policy arguments, so even at this eleventh hour will he rethink the protection available to ILF users?”
“Is Ofcom tough enough to bring into line rogue companies that rip off and bully customers such as Mr Jones? This Unicom investigation will be an important test of Ofcom, and I trust that the Minister is following it closely. For now, for Mr Jones, I ask the Minister in his important position if he will personally do three things. First, will he ask the ombudsman whether it is satisfied with the way in which the service has handled Mr Jones’s complaint? Secondly, will the Minister ask Ofcom to confirm that Mr Jones’s case will be built into its current investigation of Unicom? Thirdly, and much the most important, will the Minister personally raise this debate with the chief executive officer of Unicom and ask him now to draw a line, drop the charges and apologise in full to Mr Jones?”
“Ofcom has launched an official formal investigation into Unicom, which it tells me it expects to complete in February. The excellent BBC radio programme for consumers, “You and Yours”, has done four separate reports on Unicom in recent months. It tells me that Unicom stands out for the number and the type of complaints it gets. The problems come especially from small businesses such as cafés, garages, florists and hairdressers. The Minister told me last month that “the Department take inappropriate sales and marketing very seriously”. The dreadful and still continuing experience of Stephen Jones at the hands of this predatory company raises serious questions. Is the present system of protection and investigation strong enough? Is the ombudsman too cosy with the companies that fund it?”
“The very next day Mr Jones received a call from Unicom. He was in hospital, having just broken his back in three places, and he took a call from the company demanding immediate payment of all four full-scale termination fees totalling more than £3,000. This was 522 days since Unicom had had any contact with Mr Jones. In July this year Mr Jones and Ray came to see me and I have been on the case with Unicom, Ofcom, the Minister and the ombudsman since. The balance on the account is now over £3,500 and rising by £50 a month. In August Unicom offered to reduce this to £1,399.33. This is totally unacceptable. It is unacceptable after what Mr Jones has been through and after Unicom had said two years ago that it would waive all charges.”
“Interestingly, Amy Tytler, an investigation officer in Unicom’s compliance department, confirmed to me in a letter last month that the termination fees “were contained within the invoice raised on the 11th February 2013, prior to the issue of the Ombudsman’s Report dated the 15th February 2013.” So the company knew the content of the ombudsman’s report before it was published. This raises questions. The ombudsman is a body entirely funded by the industry through subscriptions and case fees. For the consumer, it comes across as too toothless to investigate impartially, and too close to the companies to deal properly with complaints against them. For some reason, for more than a year all went quiet with Unicom, until Ray e-mailed the ombudsman service on 12 May 2014 and happened to mention that the company had not been in touch.”
“It failed to show that it had examined fully certain areas that were central to the case: the dealings with Unicom’s Sheffield office; the illegal way in which Mr Jones’s MAC code had been obtained; and what the salesman, Mark Jennings, must have said to Mr Jones in the salon about the cost of the Unicom contracts. The ombudsman failed to uphold any aspect of Mr Jones’s complaint, ruling instead in Unicom’s favour and going further, saying that the company had done nothing wrong and need not make any concessions. That brings me back to Unicom and the fourth area of serious criticism. Unicom took advantage of the ombudsman’s report to slap termination fees on all four contracts—almost £600 for each one. This was fully five months after the contracts had been cancelled.”
“Given that the ombudsman states that its job is “to investigate complaints fairly by listening to both sides of the story and looking at the facts”, Mr Jones certainly felt that it had failed him. It failed to appreciate that it was dealing with Ray rather than with Mr Jones himself, which is likely to have led it to believe that it was dealing with a smart, sophisticated customer rather than with a simple, kindly, elderly man. The ombudsman failed to grasp that Mr Jones was no longer a Unicom customer at the time of the investigation.”
“To be fair to Unicom, no termination fees were applied at that point, as a good-will gesture to Mr Jones, to allow him to return to XLN. Mr Jones paid the telephone element of his final bill in full, but felt aggrieved that that bill also included the sum of £184.80 for the entirely unused broadband service. Ray then took that matter up with the ombudsman on Stephen Jones’s behalf. Unicom offered to waive the £184.80 charge if the case was not pursued with the ombudsman. However, because Mr Jones felt that the charge was unfair, and because the case had already been lodged with the ombudsman, he did not withdraw his complaint. I have to say that, from start to finish, it felt as though the ombudsman was almost acting as an agent of Unicom.”
“This might prove to be part of a pattern in Unicom, because in one phone call that Ray made on Mr Jones’s behalf to talk about the way in which his MAC code had been obtained, the manager he was talking to turned to a colleague and said, “They’ve done it again.” The third criticism relates to cancellation. Ray’s detailed notes confirm that he had a conversation with Unicom’s Sheffield office on 17 July 2012, 15 days after Stephen Jones had received the paperwork. In the call, the company accepted that a mistake had been made, knew that the MAC code had been transferred without reference to Mr Jones and described its contracts with him as “dead in the water”. Yet it was only after 14 chasing e-mails and 83 days that the contracts were indeed cancelled.”
“The second criticism relates to slamming, which Ofcom describes as “the most extreme form of mis-selling, which occurs when a consumer’s service is switched to another provider without their consent”. Mr Jones’s internet service was switched to Unicom by obtaining his individual migration authorisation code—known as a MAC code—without his authorisation. That broke Ofcom’s industry rules, which are set out in what it calls its “general conditions” to protect consumers in the communications sector. Crucially, it also sidestepped a further decision point for consumers, and therefore weakened the cooling-off period protection.”
“In fact, Mr Jones found that Unicom’s charges for line rental, calls to mobiles and landlines and paper billing were all much higher than XLN’s, especially calls to local or national landlines, which worked out nearly three times more costly for Mr Jones than the call charges he was paying to XLN. Mr Jones was told that the broadband service for the shop would allow clients to book online, yet he had no computer, no website, no knowledge of the technology and no need for the service. His salon is an old-style salon in a traditional ex-mining village with largely elderly clients. The cost was £72 per month, or £2,500 for each of the broadband lines over the three-year contract period.”
“The detail of his dealings with Unicom is far worse and the experience he has had with the ombudsman is little better. I have serious criticism of Unicom’s conduct in four respects. The first is mis-selling. Mr Jones was sold two telephone and two broadband packages for his shop and his home, an extortionately expensive service that Mr Jones did not want, had not asked for and could not use. The culprit was Mark Jennings of Unicom. He cold-called on Mr Jones in his salon on 25 May 2012. Mr Jones was on his own, he was busy, he was under pressure and he asked Mark Jennings to put the detail down in writing, but Mark Jennings would not do this. Stephen Jones was told that Unicom services would be cheaper, yet Mr Jones already had free broadband with Orange and a reasonable telephone rate via XLN.”
“He is not able to read or understand complex detail of the type found in consumer contracts, and, as his daughter says, “He gets bamboozled with information which is why he always likes to see things in black and white”, so he can then check them with his family or with Ray. Stephen has not been a well man for many years and now his daughters are getting very worried about the effect this dispute with Unicom is having on his health. They say he is withdrawn, anxious and depressed, and it is even affecting his relationship with his grandkids, and no wonder because out of the blue, and five months after he had the contracts with Unicom cancelled, he was hit with a bill for £3,000, and now he is being threatened with debt collectors, courts and bankruptcy.”
“Stephen and Ray came to see me in July, and as so many constituents do they came to me, their MP, as a last resort. They had tried everyone else and they had been failed by everyone else. I may not succeed, but I will do everything I can to get these indefensible charges dropped and I will not—will not—give up this fight, and I hope that during this debate the Minister will understand why I am so angry. Stephen Jones is 70. He is a vulnerable man who is highly susceptible to buying and hoarding things he does not need. He describes himself as trusting and gullible. I describe him as one of the kindest, nicest people I have met. For over 40 years he ran a small salon in Station street, Swinton called Stephen Hairdressing. Earlier this year, he broke his back and stopped working.”
“I am grateful for the opportunity to secure this debate, as this is a shameful story. Stephen Jones is a vulnerable man who was ripped off by a big telecoms company, Unicom, which refused to admit it had broken the rules or treated him badly. He has said to me, “They’re asking me to pay thousands of pounds for a service I didn’t receive. I wouldn’t want anyone else to go through this. It’s a disgrace.” He is right. I want justice for Stephen Jones, and together we want to help prevent other people from being treated the same by Unicom. From the very earliest days of this dispute, Stephen Jones has been supported and represented by a remarkable friend, who for nearly two and a half years has battled on his behalf with Unicom and with the ombudsman. He does not want any public recognition for his role, so let us just call him Ray.”
“I am grateful to the Minister for the way in which he has responded to the debate and for his offer, which I will discuss with Mr Jones and Ray, to meet them, me and the ombudsman. Will he take up my final request that he draws the attention of the Unicom chief executive to the debate and encourages him, as I do, to consider dropping the charges in their entirety?”
“Why no Tory apology to NHS staff for forcing through the largest internal reorganisation in 65 years of NHS history and for forcing them to cope with increasing confusion, complex bureaucracy and wasted cost? Why no Tory apology to the public for an NHS that they now see has longer waiting lists and service cuts? Why no Tory apology to the public for breaking election promises and the terms of the coalition agreement to stop top-down reorganisations of the NHS, which have often got in the way of patient care? Finally, while we are at it, why no apology to this House for the way we were misled about the reorganisation and the legislation in 2010 and 2011, which became the 457-page Health and Social Care Act 2012?”
“It is a pleasure to follow the right hon. Member for Banbury (Sir Tony Baldry). He made an attempt to make a serious speech, but his 30 minutes were based on one argument that is fundamentally wrong, which is that this Government have made no changes to the basis of the NHS in this country. These 457 pages of his Government’s legislation show that that is wrong. If he looks at sections 72, 73 and 80 of the Health and Social Care Act 2012, he will see that the Competition Act 1998, the Enterprise Act 2002 and the Office of Fair Trading are brought into play for the first time in our NHS. So why no Tory apology to NHS staff, patients and the public?”
“Patients say exactly the opposite of what the hon. Gentleman has just argued. However, I understand that he feels he has nothing to apologise for. If he fundamentally believes that the NHS should be a system based on full-blown competition, delivered by the private sector, then of course he would want to legislate in that way.”
“The hon. Gentleman normally finds a common touch in the way he makes his points. I have to tell him that if he tries to trot out those sorts of figures on the doorstep in the next five months, he will find that they cut no ice with the public, because they know what is happening to their NHS day to day, and we will make sure they understand why it is happening.”
“Friend the Member for Eltham (Clive Efford) has introduced is so essential and why I am so pleased and proud to be one of his sponsors.”
“As I argued, at the time from the Opposition Front Bench: “The reorganisation and legislation is designed to break up the NHS, to open up all areas of the NHS to private health companies, to remove requirements for proper openness, scrutiny and accountability to the public and to Parliament, and make the NHS subject to both UK and European competition law.” —[ Official Report , 16 March 2011; Vol. 525, c. 378.] The Government were and are driving free market political ideology through the heart of our NHS. The arguments that those of us on the Opposition Benches made then are those that we make now, and that my right hon. Friend the Member for Leigh (Andy Burnham) makes especially strongly from our Front Bench. That is why the Bill that my hon.”
“We on the Labour Benches cannot wait for the debate on the NHS to be put right at the heart of the next five months of policy and political debate, and my right hon. Friend the shadow Secretary of State will make sure that happens. Let me return to my point about the way that we in this House were misled about the reorganisation and the legislation. I am disappointed to see that the man who led it, the right hon. Member for South Cambridgeshire (Mr Lansley), is not in the Chamber today to explain himself. He argued—it was completely wrong, but he argued it—in the debate on Second Reading in January 2011: “It is about gearing the entire system towards supporting the relationship between doctor and patient”. —[ Official Report , 31 January 2011; Vol. 522, c. 617.] Of course, it was not and it is not.”
“As the chief executive of the NHS said at the time, it was “beyond anything that anybody from the public or private sector has witnessed”. The cost of the waste has been huge. We reckoned beforehand that it was about £2 billion; we now reckon £3 billion. What is clear is that getting on for £1 billion has been paid out in redundancies, much of which was to staff who were paid off and then re-hired by our NHS.”
“My hon. Friend has been a strong champion of the NHS and followed this issue from day one of this Parliament. To answer directly his question of what could be more succinct and clear, I suspect that when we hear from the new Member for UKIP, the hon. Member for Rochester and Strood (Mark Reckless) or his colleague, the hon. Member for Clacton (Douglas Carswell)—given some of the things that they have argued should be the basis of the NHS in future—they will make the vision of the right hon. Member for South West Surrey look positively UKIP-lite. This Bill is essential because it starts to correct the three fundamental flaws, brought about by the reorganisation legislation, that are now driving the NHS. We could call them the three Cs—cost, complexity and competition. On cost, the scale of the reorganisation was simply huge.”
“According to the NHS Support Federation, that is already valued at £2.6 billion. At that win rate, the contracts already currently advertised will mean another £6.6 billion in the private sector—getting on for 10% of our NHS run by private companies in private hands.”
“We saw new national quangos responsible for tens of billions of pounds of spending of public money in each and every one of our local areas in England. The commissioning role, which was previously undertaken by one body, the primary care trust, is now fragmented with at least five different bodies trying to do the same job. On the third C, competition, the Secretary of State has his foot lightly on the accelerator of privatisation for now, but let us make no mistake, if the Tories win the next election, he will press it hard down to the floor immediately afterwards. Even though they are soft-pedalling on the privatisation that their Act put in place, we have seen in the 18 months since it came into force 131 contracts won by companies such as Care UK, Virgin Care and BUPA.”
“I did not want to open up all the old arguments that we fought in 2010-11, though it was extraordinary to see the extreme lengths to which the Government went—seen before only on matters of military information—to stop the disclosure of the risk register about the potential impact and likely consequences of their policy. My hon. Friend was a great supporter of mine in trying to use the Freedom of Information Act to allow the public and this House to see the terms of what the Government knew could happen to the NHS if they passed the legislation. My second C is complexity. NHS services are now so much harder to plan and so much harder to hold to account because of the changes the Government have made.”
“It is clear that Ministers have done next to nothing to try to influence the negotiations and secure the full exclusion and protection we require for our NHS and wider public services. Indeed, rather as the right hon. Member for Banbury (Sir Tony Baldry) observed, the Minister for Trade and Investment, Lord Livingston, who is responsible in government for leading the British position, has said that he would welcome the inclusion of health services in any deal. When the Minister gets up to speak, perhaps he will—formally, in this House—make the Government’s position clear. What is clear is that if we are properly to protect our NHS in any future TTIP, we must have a strong British voice in Brussels, which we do not have at the moment.”
“I am convinced of this, not just because other EU trade agreements have protected public services, but because if the Government want them, there are specific member state reservations to cover public services and because we have heard the confirmation, directly from the chief negotiator whom I have met twice about this, that even with ISDS—investor-state dispute settlement—provisions, which I do not support, nothing could prevent a future Labour Government from bringing parts of the NHS now in private hands back into public hands. The second thing that has become clear is that these commitments have been secured despite, not because of, Government Ministers.”
“If anybody doubts it, they should look at the case of the two NHS trusts—the Royal Bournemouth and the Poole NHS Trusts—whose merger made great sense to patients, but was prevented by this Government’s legislation. Let me say a few words about the transatlantic trade and investment partnership. I have chaired the all-party group that has followed these negotiations for the last 18 months in order to try to encourage a better and more balanced public and parliamentary understanding and debate, as well as to put the Government on the spot and hold them to account for what they are doing. We are trying to ensure that if we get a deal, it will bring real benefits not just to British business, but to British workers and British consumers. Two things have become clear. First, the NHS can be fully protected in TTIP.”
“It comes as no surprise, and I am grateful to my hon. Friend for underlining that point. I was not planning to make that point, but I am glad that it has been made so clearly. My argument is with the Prime Minister. So much for what he said, and so much for his word when he said back in 2011 that “we will not be selling off the NHS”. Perhaps the most serious consequence of this fragmentation, this privatisation and this contractualisation is the fact that the most important and fundamental value at the heart of the NHS—an imperative at its heart—is the ability properly to plan, co-ordinate and deliver services. That is being made much harder, as the Health Select Committee has said, and sometimes impossible by the operation of the Health and Social Care Act and competition law.”
“I would expect these trade negotiations to stretch into at least the end of next year, so I hope and expect that the responsibility for making sure that this deal is good for Britain will become that of a Labour, not a Tory, Government and of Labour Ministers, not Tory Ministers.”
“I will give way to the hon. Gentleman before finishing on the issue of the Prime Minister, which my hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh East (Sheila Gilmore) has just raised.”
“This Bill—it is why I am pleased and proud to support it—is an essential step towards doing that, but the election of a Labour Government must follow if we are to do the job properly.”
“Indeed. There is an onus, a responsibility and, I would argue, a duty on British Ministers to make those representations and to secure those protections in any deal for the whole of the UK. Finally, the Prime Minister made his most personal pledges before the last election to protect the NHS and to stop top-down reorganisations. He has broken those pledges to the British people, and the damage that he and his Tory Ministers have inflicted through this NHS reorganisation and legislation has been unwanted, wasteful and wrong. It will fall to a Labour Government, after May, to put right this damage and to rescue the NHS, as my hon. Friend the Member for Eltham said in his opening speech, just as we did in 1997.”
“If the hon. Gentleman or any other Members want to know a little bit more about TTIP, particularly the potential impact on the NHS and public services, we have a meeting of the all-party group on European Union-United States trade and investment at 2 o’clock on Monday, at which the EU chief negotiator will be on the panel alongside Dave Prentis, general secretary of Unison. The hon. Gentleman might like to come along.”
“Would the Minister be good enough to concede that that has absolutely nothing to do with what the Government have been arguing; that is to do with the EU and their negotiation. The Trade Minister in charge has said that he does not want the NHS to be excluded in the way that we want.”
“My hon. Friend makes a powerful case. Does he agree that tied tenants, such as those of the Monkwood tavern in Rawmarsh, The Crusty Pipe in Goldthorpe and The Bull’s Head in Cortonwood, simply want a fair basis on which to run their pubs as a business for them and their families?”
“T7. It is a disgrace that the Secretary of State has personally allowed the dispute over fire service pensions to drag on for three years. The Government’s own expert report says that two thirds of firefighters will not pass the current fitness standard at the age of 60, meaning they will be faced with no job and no pension after years of good service. Why has he turned his back on firefigters and now dragged his new junior Minister away from the negotiating table?”
“It is, of course, the poorest who require and need bus services most. One of the things I am most proud of during 13 years of the Labour Government is playing a big part in the Treasury in the introduction of free bus travel for all pensioners. We did that in 2006-07, and last year it was worth £37 million to pensioners across South Yorkshire, although that was £3 million less than in the last year of the last Labour Government.”
“It is good to follow the hon. Member for Cheltenham (Martin Horwood), but I have to tell him that people in our part of South Yorkshire simply will not recognise the picture he draws with selective facts and figures—and it is the same with the picture portrayed by the Secretary of State about bus services in our part of the world and most parts of the country. Local buses are the main form of public transport in Rotherham. We have no tram, and we have two train stations in a borough with nearly 250,000 people. In Barnsley, we have no tram and a small handful of small stations to serve a borough with 220,000 people. Many people rely on buses—to get to work, to college, to hospitals, to shops and to see family and friends. Many older and disabled people are totally dependent on buses to get out and about and to avoid isolation.”
“Friend the Member for Wakefield has announced to legislate for city regions such as South Yorkshire and county regions elsewhere to have greater control over local bus services, and powers to determine routes, to set fares and to integrate public transport properly. The motion says that London-style powers and a London-style service are required elsewhere. That is exactly what we need in South Yorkshire.”