Dame Harriett Baldwin
MP for West Worcestershire · Conservative · United Kingdom
“I welcome the Chancellor to his new role. I paid close attention yesterday to the long speech he made to reset the narrative and drive growth Britain. In paying tribute to his predecessor, will he recognise that she left the highest tax burden on record? Instead of postponing the words he could utter to my hon.”
“I welcome the new Prime Minister to the Dispatch Box. I note that in his statement he referred to the biggest issues facing the country as being “the economy and the cost of living crisis”. Will he accept that one of the things that has damaged our economy and caused prices to be higher is the tax-and-spend Budget in November 2024?”
“Could the Leader of the House make a commitment that the new Chancellor of the Exchequer will come to the House on the first day we are back from recess?”
“With a stroke of his Whitehall pen, the Secretary of State has just abolished Malvern Hills district council, Worcester city council, wonderful Wychavon district council and Worcestershire county council. He said in his statement that this is about making “real improvements to people’s lives and…communities”.”
“In recent weeks in West Worcestershire, I have met local police and the police and crime commissioner; the police and crime commissioner is being abolished, and the police are being reorganised. I have met the local health commissioners; they are being reorganised, and Healthwatch is being abolished.”
“Will the Leader of the House confirm that, given that the other place is sitting next week, there is nothing to stop him tabling a business statement to enable this House to sit next week? Given the enormity of the events happening in the Government next week, does he not think that would be a good idea?”
The complete record
Every one of 3,832 lines we hold for Dame Harriett Baldwin, in date order, each linked to its source. Free to read, in full, without an account. Page 57 of 77.
“The FCA is unable to provide any comment on what the level or form of compensation to investors may be if it is found that the operators have contravened any regulatory principles or rules.”
“I have so little time. The FCA is now conducting formal investigations into the activities of the two operators of the fund, Capita Financial Managers Ltd and Blue Gate Capital Ltd. My hon. Friend questions the length of time that the FCA is likely to take in order to conduct and conclude its investigations. Although it is too early to give a reliable estimate of the likely time frame for their conclusion, the FCA has assured me that it intends to progress the investigations efficiently and effectively. The length of time it will take to complete the investigations is affected by, among other things, the level of co-operation received from those under investigation and any related third parties. As the FCA is in the process of carrying out its investigations it is, of course, not possible to comment on their likely outcome.”
“In view of this independence, it would not be appropriate for the Government to comment or intervene in the Financial Ombudsman Service’s work on complaints against advisers who sold the Connaught Income Fund. However, although I cannot provide comment on these details of these investigations, I am assured that the FCA has put considerable resources, time and effort into trying to achieve a good outcome for the investors affected by the failure of the fund, and that it continues to act in the best interests of the investors.”
“I have so little time, but I will try to make progress and then give way. The FCA is an independent, non-governmental body, so I am sure my hon. Friend the Member for Aberconwy will agree that for me to interfere in its investigations in any way would not be appropriate. My hon. Friend raised the question of whether the Financial Ombudsman Service has indicated a pre-determination to find against independent financial advisers, regardless of the allegations of fraudulent behaviour within the fund. It is important to note that like the FCA, the Financial Ombudsman Service is an independent, non-governmental body. It provides an independent dispute resolution service for consumers with individual complaints against financial services companies.”
“The hon. Lady has been assiduous in tabling a number of parliamentary questions. I think I am right in saying that they have been put on the record in the Library. I encourage other hon. Members to have a look and see the record that she has managed to get from the FCA in writing. I am sure that other hon. Members who have constituents who have suffered losses in the Connaught Income Fund will welcome the reassurance that the FCA is doing its utmost to secure the best possible outcome for investors, and that they will support the FCA in its current investigations.”
“I am sure my hon. Friend would not want me to interfere in a number of different FCA matters, but I am quite sure that the FCA will have seen the strength of feeling in the Chamber this evening. I have one minute left so I will take a quick intervention.”
“That is an important step to take in ensuring that such a situation does not occur in the future. I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Aberconwy once again for raising these important issues. His all-party group plays an incredibly important role in the parliamentary scrutiny of what the FCA is investigating, and I hope we can move forward and secure redress for his constituents and others. Question put and agreed to.”
“There clearly is a lot to investigate in this case. As I said, the FCA is doing its utmost to secure the best possible outcome for investors. I would like to reassure hon. Members about the steps that have been taken to ensure that this situation does not occur again. The FCA has brought in new rules banning the promotion of unregulated collective investment schemes to ordinary retail investors. Independent financial advisers should not be selling unregulated investment schemes to retail investors. The circumstances in which unregulated schemes can be promoted to consumers are generally restricted to certain types of qualifying investors, such as those who have a high level of understanding about investments, or high net worth individuals, for whom those products are likely to be more suitable.”
“A voluntary agreement could not establish those rights with sufficient legal certainty. We have also had to limit and make more specific the reasons why a bank may refuse an application for a basic bank account or close one. However—I recognise the concern from the industry on that—no bank is required to open an account or continue to operate one where it would otherwise be unlawful to do so. I hope my words have assured the Committee that the regulations meet the UK’s obligation in implementing the directive in a sensible and pragmatic way and that, therefore, it will support the motion to approve them.”
“The directive will allow us to restrict accounts to only the unbanked, but we are clear that basic bank accounts are also necessary for access to banking for those who may already be banked but unable to use their existing account owing to financial difficulty. That is why the eligibility criteria in the draft regulations establish that consumers should be offered at least a basic bank account if they are unbanked or if they do not meet the bank’s stated eligibility criteria for standard current accounts. We do not want to move backwards, but we have had to ensure that the UK can demonstrate its compliance with the directive. For example, we had to legislate to establish a clear legal right of access to a basic bank account and a right to challenge banks’ decisions before a court.”
“We have taken action in the draft regulations to ensure that we do not move backwards as a result of implementing the directive. For example, the directive would allow us to establish arrangements less advantageous to UK basic bank account customers by allowing banks to charge fees. However, the Government believe that a basic bank account and its standard services should continue to be provided free of charge, as long as the services are provided in pounds sterling. Nor should basic bank account customers be charged for failed payments or for over-running, given that a key principle underpinning basic accounts in the UK is that they should not be offered with an overdraft.”
“I will move on to the provisions on basic bank accounts. Such accounts help to ensure that everyone can access essential banking services. They should be fee free and not offer an overdraft or cheque book. The draft regulations on basic bank accounts reflect the UK’s existing basic bank account policy, in particular where that is more advantageous to customers, but they bring the UK into line with the requirements in the directive where necessary. In December last year, the Government reached a new agreement on basic bank accounts with the nine largest providers of current accounts. That agreement clarifies who should be eligible for a basic bank account and brings to an end the widespread practice of charging basic bank account customers for a failed payment, such as a failed direct debit or standing order.”
“As the directive makes clear, we may maintain existing services where they meet those three criteria. There is no requirement to mirror the switching rules set out in the directive exactly. The Government’s clear view is that our existing current account switch service exceeds the three criteria. However, the UK’s compliance with the directive should be beyond question, which is why the independent Payment Systems Regulator will be responsible for confirming that the current account switch service meets and continues to deliver against the three criteria. We have agreed a proportionate set of powers for the Payment Systems Regulator, as a competent authority, to use should they ever become necessary in its limited role. The Payment Systems Regulator will provide further information on the designation and monitoring process in due course.”
“Not all EU member states are in our happy position, however, so the directive sets out some rules that all EU payment service providers must abide by when customers wish to switch to another payment account in their member state. Where a UK payment service provider is not a member of the current account switch service and it offers a current account-type product, it must at least follow the EU rules. However, for the vast majority of the current account market, the draft regulations allow our current account switch service to continue to work as it does today. Compared with the switching rules set out in the directive, our current account switch service must meet three simple criteria: it must continue to be in the interest of the consumer; it must present no additional burden to the consumer; and it must be at least as fast.”
“The directive will also require action on packaged accounts, which are payment accounts that offer an additional service or services such as insurance or car breakdown cover. Customers will now need to be informed whether the account is available without the additional services and, if any of the additional services may be purchased separately from the same firm, how much each of those additional services would cost. Taken together, the measures should help customers understand and compare how much they are charged. I will now set out the approach to account switching. As I have mentioned, the UK already has a world-leading current account switch service, which has been recognised by the European Commission. It is managed and operated by BACS, a not-for-profit organisation.”
“As required by the directive, the Financial Conduct Authority has established a provisional national list of the most representative services that are linked to current accounts in the UK and subject to a fee. Each member state has submitted its list to the European Commission and the European Banking Authority, so that they may develop EU standardised terminology for the services that appear on a majority of member states’ national lists. After the European Commission adopts the EU standardised terminology, the FCA will integrate standardised terminology into its provisional national list, where necessary, and publish the final list for UK payment service providers to use. In addition, the Money Advice Service will operate a comparison website allowing customers to compare at least the fees that appear on the final list.”
“The Financial Conduct Authority will supervise and enforce most of the requirements set out in the draft regulations. Where firms offer a payment account in line with the draft regulations, they will need to make new documents available to customers: first, a fee information document setting out the fees that may be charged before the consumer decides to enter into a contract; secondly, an annual statement of fees provided each year to explain the fees that have been charged; and thirdly, a glossary to explain the main terms used in the documents and their definitions. Some of the terminology used in those documents and in related contractual, commercial and marketing information will be standardised at European level. The process for carrying out that standardisation is already under way.”
“Accordingly, the Government have defined “payment account” in the draft regulations in a way that describes and clarifies the accounts that will be in scope. It is the Government’s view that the definition should be sufficient to limit the application of the draft regulations to current accounts or accounts that have functionalities directly comparable to those of current accounts in the UK. The Government have given as much clarification as the text for the directive allows. To go further and entirely exclude some types of account would be to risk a failure to comply with the directive. It will be for firms themselves to determine whether each of their products falls within the scope of the regulations and whether the regulations therefore apply to them.”
“I will start with a few words on the scope of the directive—namely, the definition of the term “payment account”. For the avoidance of doubt, when I refer to a payment account today, I do so in line with the definition used in the draft regulations. The definition of that term in the directive could capture very simple types of payment account, well beyond the types of account used for day-to-day transactions that were discussed in open negotiations. However, the detailed recitals to the directive make it clear that the following should, in principle, be excluded: savings accounts; credit card accounts, into which funds are usually paid for the sole purpose of repaying a credit card debt; current account mortgages; and e-money accounts. The exception to that is where such accounts are used for day-to-day payment transactions.”
“Thirdly, the directive creates a right of access to a payment account with basic features—more commonly known as “basic bank accounts” in the UK—for all consumers legally resident within the EU. The Government supported the directive and have already taken action in many of those areas. Agreements with industry already aim to improve transparency of fees and charges, and we have established the seven-day current account switch service. For more than 10 years, our largest banks have offered basic bank accounts, and they have recently committed to improve that offering even further. The regulations comply with the directive where necessary but minimise negative impacts on industry and customers and preserve structures that are already working well in the UK.”
“I beg to move, That the Committee has considered the draft Payment Accounts Regulations 2015. It is a great pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr McCabe. I am pleased to introduce these draft regulations, which aim to ensure the UK’s compliance with the EU payment accounts directive. The directive sets common standards across member states that payment service providers—in this context, principally banks and building societies—must meet. First, for the accounts that we use for day-to-day transactions—in most cases, a current account—the directive aims to make fees and charges clearer and more comparable. Secondly, the directive seeks to make it easier to switch to another provider of such an account, in order to facilitate competition.”
“As for the timetable for that, as I mentioned in my opening remarks, we need to get the final list published by the FCA of the applicable terms to which it would expect the Money Advice Service to link. Once that happens, we expect the FCA to publish that list during the first half of 2017. Obviously, the Money Advice Service may choose to set up its website sooner, but there is no obligation for it to do so until six months after the FCA publishes its final linked services list. If there are no further questions, I hope that the Committee will now support the draft regulations. Question put and agreed to.”
“In the five years up to 2010, only one new bank opened in the UK. In the previous Parliament, eight new banks opened in the UK, and in this Parliament, we hope that 15 new banks will open in the UK. Of course, the opening of new banks gives consumers more choice and makes for a more competitive marketplace. The rate of change in switching is going up, but we welcome the initial report from the CMA, which is consulting on ways in which we might make it easier for consumers to get a better deal from their bank account. The hon. Gentleman also asked about the timetable for the Money Advice Service. I can confirm that the Money Advice Service is funded through a levy. We work closely with it and with the FCA on its overall budget but that will clearly form part of its work stream.”
“Gentleman is absolutely right to highlight the fact that people in the UK are much more likely to get divorced that to move bank accounts. That is not a very happy statistic. Nevertheless, since the current account switch service came in, we have certainly had a big increase in the number of people using it, because it makes it so much easier for consumers to move all their direct debits and payments across. In fact, 2.25 million people have used the service since it started and it seems only a few months ago that we were celebrating the 2 millionth. Clearly, many people are using it and, importantly, the fact that we have put such an emphasis on banking competition in this country means that consumers have more choice of who they might move to. A lot of new challenger banks are opening in the UK.”
“Our understanding is that, because a basic bank account has been available in the UK for many years, the industry is not concerned about implementing the regulations. The hon. Member for Leeds East asked about a range of things related to the recent CMA report about bank account competition. That report has had its first publication and is open for consultation and feedback. I encourage him to write in to that. Clearly, we do not think that the directive will prevent us, in any way, from making the changes that we might want to make in the UK as a result of the CMA recommendations. The draft regulations will not prevent the UK from moving ahead on domestic initiatives. They are still being consulted on and they will be published next spring. The hon.”
“I reassure him that exactly the same high standards of anti-money-laundering regulations would still apply in those situations so the banks should certainly satisfy themselves that the person whose basic bank account they are being asked to open can legally open one in the UK. Of course, that has come into particularly sharp focus as a result of the terrorist act in Paris recently. We must ensure that rigorous checks are in place. My right hon. Friend asked whether the banks have enough time. As this is largely already in place in the United Kingdom, I have not had concerns expressed to me about timing. If he has representations that he would like to pass on or if he has specific concerns, I would be interested in hearing them.”
“I welcome the support of Her Majesty’s Opposition, who have acknowledged that the draft regulations simply recognise that we are in the fortunate position, across the whole UK banking sector, of already having in place most of the component parts of the architecture required by the measure. The questions asked by the hon. Member for Leeds East are really more general questions about banking, competition and switching between bank accounts. I am happy to answer those questions but I will first answer the question of my right hon. Friend the Member for Cities of London and Westminster about the requirement for a basic bank account to be provided for any citizen of the EU who comes here and chooses to open one.”
“The hon. Lady is making a very important speech about apprenticeships. Will she join me in welcoming the fact that more than half of apprenticeships in this country are now being taken by women?”
“Women in our country still earn less, own less and retire with less than men. We can agree that all political parties seek to make progress on those issues.”
“This has been an historic debate, because it has been a debate with women at the Dispatch Box, by women in the Chamber, chaired for most of the time by a woman—and we also had some contributions from men. The first duty of a Government is certainty to protect economic and national security, extending opportunity and aspiration to every girl and boy, allowing every woman and man to fulfil their potential, and giving older people dignity in retirement. The Government are managing the economy and the public finances properly, and as a result, we are enabling job creation, increasing wages, increasing job security, cutting income tax and helping parents with more free childcare in an economy that is 12% larger than when we took office in 2010. Do women have economic equality yet? They do not.”
“They assume that spending less on public services invariably leads to poorer services—something that we have comprehensively disproved over the past five years. They even imply that the billions and billions of pounds of tax cuts that have led to lower petrol prices at the pump do not help women. I have heard it said before that Labour wants to take us back to the 1970s, but this is more like the Harry Enfield sketch about the 1930s. I will try to imitate him: “Women, know your limits and, for pity’s sake, don’t drive!” At best, the motion shows unconscious bias. At worst, it shows the latent sexism of a sexist Labour leadership. The motion says, “Don’t invest in infrastructure, because it’s not women who build things.” Where do I start with that?”
“I will, of course, come on to address some of the points raised in the debate. Although there is political consensus that we must make progress on women’s economic issues, our parties will approach that progress differently. My party will stress more equal opportunity, more aspiration, higher skills and higher standards in education, while the Labour party will seek to tax women more, borrow more debt on behalf of women, their children and their grandchildren, and create more welfare poverty traps for women. Today’s Opposition motion shows why the Labour party can never again be trusted to run our economy. In their motion on the Order Paper, the Opposition assume that mixed-gender households do not share incomes. That is quite an assumption.”
“I wish the hon. Lady would acknowledge a few of the facts that I am about to share about women in the economy. The calculations that she has been citing all afternoon do not include these basic facts. There are more women in work than ever before in this country. We have the highest female employment rate ever. We also have the lowest gender pay gap since records began.”
“I will make some progress. We want to make sure that the pay gap narrows further and faster. From next year, we will require large companies to publish differences in pay.”
“Member for Wirral South (Alison McGovern), my hon. Friend the Member for Lewes (Maria Caulfield), the hon. Member for Worsley and Eccles South (Barbara Keeley), my hon. Friend the Member for Portsmouth South (Mrs Drummond), the hon. Member for Brentford and Isleworth (Ruth Cadbury) and the hon. Member for Ross, Skye and Lochaber (Ian Blackford). A number of people have mentioned part-time work. It is worth remembering that 80% of the people who work part time do so because they want to. However, I agree wholeheartedly with the Chair of the Women and Equalities Committee, my right hon. Friend the Member for Basingstoke, who said that she wanted greater equality in the form of more men working part time. There is evidence that that is beginning to happen, enabling parental leave opportunities to be shared more equally.”
“The fastest way to damage the livelihoods of hard-working women and families is to lose control of the public finances. That is the damage that we have had to fix, and we are making sure that that catastrophic situation does not happen again. I want to address some of the important points raised today in a range of speeches—speeches from the hon. Member for Lanark and Hamilton East (Angela Crawley), my right hon. Friend the Member for Basingstoke (Mrs Miller), the hon. Member for Sunderland Central (Julie Elliott), my hon. Friend the Member for South Ribble (Seema Kennedy), the hon. Member for Paisley and Renfrewshire South (Mhairi Black), my hon. Friend the Member for Eastleigh (Mims Davies), the hon. Member for Mitcham and Morden (Siobhain McDonagh), my hon. Friend the Member for Dudley South (Mike Wood), the hon.”
“I do not have much time, so I will make a bit of progress. Some 56% of the people who have been taken out of income tax altogether—in other words, who have had a 100% reduction in their income tax—through our increases to the personal allowance are women. Some 58% of those who receive the state pension are women—I will address the point made by the hon. Member for Worsley and Eccles South (Barbara Keeley) in a moment—and we have protected that under the triple lock. Almost two thirds of the people who will benefit from our introduction of the national living wage are women. Since 2010, women’s employment has increased faster than in the three previous Parliaments combined. Let us compare and contrast that with the record of the previous Labour Government, under which the number of unemployed women rose by more than 200,000, or 25%.”
“I would not want the Members who talked about the incredibly important issue of domestic violence to create the perception that there has not been an increase in domestic violence refuge provision, because there has. There are 13 new domestic violence refuges in this country, and the number of beds that refuges have available has increased from 3,216 in 2013 to 3,472 in 2015. [ Interruption. ]”
“I want to address the points raised in the debate. A number of people mentioned the importance of women choosing STEM subjects at school. I am sure that Members on both sides of the House will welcome the sharp increase in the number of young women taking physics and chemistry at A-level. Careers advice was also mentioned, and it is certainly important to explain to women that a range of opportunities exist for them, and that everything should be open to them. The women’s state pension age was mentioned a number of times, but no one pointed out that all the women affected by the change in the state pension age will benefit from the new higher state pension, or that the simplified state pension will enable women to take into account many more years that they may have spent engaged in caring responsibilities.”
“They failed to address the lack of women at the top in business, just as they have failed to address the lack of women in top jobs in their party today. The Labour party is determined to fight the 1983 general election all over again. A woman won that election, and thanks to the result of that election we are once again winning economic security, economic opportunity and real economic aspiration for women. I urge my colleagues—”
“I can give the hon. Lady the source, which is the online system, and I will write to the hon. Member for Birmingham, Yardley (Jess Phillips) about this. I am proud to serve in a Government who have done so much to help women of working age, and who have improved the state pension for women in retirement. The foundations of this improvement are, of course, our sound management of the economy, which is delivering growth, jobs, security and a higher standard of living. The previous Labour Government failed to provide women with greater financial security, and Labour Members have opposed our economic reforms at every stage. They failed to support giving girls the best possible education. They failed to support women in work.”
“Together, these proposals will help to provide an additional funding boost to the economy and jobs and growth. I welcome this opportunity to answer questions from the Committee.”
“Based on the joint work by the Bank of England and the European Central Bank, they focus on defining standards of simplicity, transparency and disclosure to allow market participants to understand the risk that they are taking on and to price it appropriately. We are consulting a wide range of market participants and practitioners to inform our contributions in the negotiations, which will once again involve building partnerships to work our way through some of the issues noted by my hon. Friend the Member for Rochester and Strood, including the justice and home affairs issue. I hope that hon. Members will therefore support today’s motion to note the Government’s support for the capital markets union action plan and the publication of proposals to set out a robust framework for securitisations in the European Union.”
“Diversity in funding channels is highly desirable, as it increases the resilience of economies to shocks, as well as supporting them to recover more quickly. Securitisations can help to spread risk across the entire financial sector and offer an additional investment opportunity for pension funds and long-term savers. However, securitisations can be a source of instability if not done within a robust regulatory framework, so we will seek to provide for a clear, workable and legally robust framework for market participants as a further necessary precondition for getting these markets going again. The Government believe that these proposals provide a sound foundation on which to restart safely the European securitisation markets.”
“Friend the Member for Stone (Sir William Cash), apologising for the fact that Government support for the draft Council conclusions on the capital markets union action plan was given while the action plan was still subject to this process of parliamentary scrutiny. That was the result of a lapse in due process. I assure hon. Members that we are reviewing our internal procedures in the light of that oversight to ensure that it does not happen again. Also at the end of September, the European Commission published proposals for a revised regulatory framework for securitisations. The Government strongly welcomed that timely and necessary initiative, which will open up an important funding channel to help European economies, ultimately supporting jobs and growth.”
“Lord Hill, the Commissioner with responsibility for financial services, has been clear that creating a capital markets union will be a step-by-step, consultative process and that decisions on the design of reforms will be evidence-based and subject to rigorous economic impact analysis. That will enable us to work with other member states to iron out issues in the detail. If we are to make the European Union more competitive, we need a true single market in capital. Delivery of a capital markets union forms part of the Government’s agenda for a more competitive European Union, and it was included by my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister in his letter to Donald Tusk on the subject of renegotiation. At this stage, I would like briefly to remind the Committee of the letter I sent earlier this week to my hon.”
“It is a genuine delight to serve under your chairmanship this morning, Mr Hanson. I welcome this opportunity to discuss with the Committee the European Commission’s action plan on building a capital markets union. The capital markets action plan has the full support of the UK Government. We think it represents precisely the sort of work that Europe should be undertaking—work designed to improve EU competitiveness and create jobs and growth. The capital markets action plan sets out a range of initiatives that the Commission will pursue during the rest of its mandate. These will help to increase and diversify access to finance for businesses, create opportunities for investors and savers, and knock down barriers to saving and investment across 28 countries.”
“On the more general points about renegotiation and the Prime Minister’s letter to Donald Tusk, it is clear that the European Union needs to address the fact that nine countries continue to have their own currencies and 19 have chosen to adopt the euro. There is absolutely no prospect of the UK ever joining the euro, so as part of the renegotiation we need to make it clear across the 28 EU countries that positive initiatives such as this on capital markets must reflect the fact that this is a multi-currency single market for capital. We will fight vigorously against any proposals that threaten that. That is a key part of the renegotiation.”
“Let me take those points in turn. As a distinguished member of the Select Committee on the Treasury, my hon. Friend knows that the UK does not object in principle to financial transaction taxes. The UK has a financial transaction tax on stocks that are bought in the UK. However, the Government are concerned about the application of a financial transaction tax on instruments that could be traded elsewhere in the world, because if it were applied to something that is easily mobile and can be moved quickly to another jurisdiction, that is what would happen. There are no proposals in the capital markets union steps outlined today to harmonise taxation in any way. The Government stand strongly on our belief that taxation is a matter for member states and we continue to argue that case.”
“I welcome the hon. Gentleman’s question about risk and I draw his attention to this incredibly thorough document. With his academic interest in such subjects, he will want to read the academic articles cited in this weighty tome. He will know that there are of course many risks in capital markets. Not only is there market risk, there is credit risk, regulatory risk and, in a multi-currency single market, currency risk. In a previous life, I specialised in this subject, so perhaps he and I could go for a drink some time and talk about leptokurtic distributions and other such esoteric matters, which might not fascinate the rest of the Committee as much as us.”