Dame Harriett Baldwin
MP for West Worcestershire · Conservative · United Kingdom
“I welcome the Chancellor to his new role. I paid close attention yesterday to the long speech he made to reset the narrative and drive growth Britain. In paying tribute to his predecessor, will he recognise that she left the highest tax burden on record? Instead of postponing the words he could utter to my hon.”
“I welcome the new Prime Minister to the Dispatch Box. I note that in his statement he referred to the biggest issues facing the country as being “the economy and the cost of living crisis”. Will he accept that one of the things that has damaged our economy and caused prices to be higher is the tax-and-spend Budget in November 2024?”
“Could the Leader of the House make a commitment that the new Chancellor of the Exchequer will come to the House on the first day we are back from recess?”
“With a stroke of his Whitehall pen, the Secretary of State has just abolished Malvern Hills district council, Worcester city council, wonderful Wychavon district council and Worcestershire county council. He said in his statement that this is about making “real improvements to people’s lives and…communities”.”
“In recent weeks in West Worcestershire, I have met local police and the police and crime commissioner; the police and crime commissioner is being abolished, and the police are being reorganised. I have met the local health commissioners; they are being reorganised, and Healthwatch is being abolished.”
“Will the Leader of the House confirm that, given that the other place is sitting next week, there is nothing to stop him tabling a business statement to enable this House to sit next week? Given the enormity of the events happening in the Government next week, does he not think that would be a good idea?”
The complete record
Every one of 3,832 lines we hold for Dame Harriett Baldwin, in date order, each linked to its source. Free to read, in full, without an account. Page 66 of 77.
“I hope that the Bill will make progress, but can my hon. Friend make it clear that when we are talking about an exception for someone who is not in the UK at the beginning of the five-year period after which they apply for British citizenship, the reason for them not being here would have to be that they were serving in our armed forces? Is not that the difference between the Bill and the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Christchurch (Mr Chope)?”
“This is an interesting anecdote. I am proud to have participated in the armed forces parliamentary scheme since I was elected. On visiting a base—which should perhaps remain nameless—I was given athletic clothes, including a very short pair of shorts, and asked to take the fitness test. Can my hon. Friend enlighten me as to whether he had a similar experience when he visited the base in his constituency?”
“Will my hon. Friend clarify the territorial extent of the legislation, which the Bill refers to as England and Wales, Scotland, Northern Ireland, the Channel Islands, the Isle of Man and—there is a list of these—the British overseas territories? Is it the intention that those are the places where the applicant might want to settle and naturalise—I assume that they are not the places where the applicant might have to be serving in the armed forces? What does he mean by the territorial extent of the Bill?”
“If my hon. Friend will forgive me for returning to the issue I raised earlier on the British overseas territories, there is a special case, to which my hon. Friend the Member for Christchurch (Mr Chope) has referred, for the sovereign bases at Akrotiri and Dhekelia, which are classified as British dependent territories but are not counted as qualifying territories for nationality purposes. Will those two sovereign bases be included in the territorial extent of the legislation?”
“As my hon. Friend was in the House when the 1981 Act was passed, can he remember the territorial extent of that legislation? I ask that because I am a little confused as the territorial extent covered under the Bill includes the British overseas territories, which would potentially mean someone living in the overseas territories could apply for UK citizenship from their location.”
“Does my hon. Friend think it would be appropriate, when targeting net migration to this country, for the Government to make it clear how many of those who do come here are former members of our armed forces?”
“It is worth putting it in Hansard that they are Anguilla, Bermuda, the British Antarctic Territory, the British Indian Ocean Territory, the Cayman Islands, the Falkland Islands and its dependencies, Gibraltar of course, Montserrat, Pitcairn, Henderson, Ducie and Oeno Islands, St Helena and its dependencies, the sovereign base areas of Akrotiri and Dhekelia, the Turks and Caicos Islands, and the British Virgin Islands.”
“Given that this is a Second Reading debate, I hope that you will regard all those areas of questioning as in order, Mr Speaker. As I understand it, the provisions on timing relate only to the starting point of the application for naturalisation. As things stand at the moment, the individual making the application needs to be in the United Kingdom at the point at which the clock starts ticking for the five-year period. I would like that clarified. I also want clarification on the territorial extent of the Bill. My interpretation is that clause 2(3) would extend the Bill to England and Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland, which all seems very logical, but also to the Channel Islands, the Isle of Man and the British overseas territories. It is on the British overseas territories that my questions begin to multiply.”
“Although the Bill appears short, containing few clauses, my scrutiny of it has found that it raises many questions in this important area, on which I seek the Minister’s clarification. I wish to ask him about the time an individual is required to spend, and where they are required to spend it, before the process of naturalisation can begin. I want to explore the Secretary of State’s discretion in these matters, which is clearly outlined in the Bill, and to ask the Minister further questions about the territorial extent clause. I also want to clarify whether the naturalisation provisions added to our general citizenship legislation since the 1981 Act—specifically the requirement to pass a citizenship test and how the test has been changed—would continue to apply in this case.”
“I, too, congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Woking (Jonathan Lord) on introducing this excellent private Member’s Bill. I am delighted to be here to speak in support of it, just as he was kind enough to be here to support my private Member’s Bill. The Minister, who is my neighbour, as he represents Forest of Dean, was also in the Chamber that day. Since then, he has been promoted to his current role, so I hope that the fact he is sitting on the Front Bench today augurs well for the Bill. The Bill is an extremely worthwhile piece of legislation, but, as we were just hearing from my hon. Friend the Member for Gainsborough (Sir Edward Leigh), it is incredibly important that we scrutinise these pieces of legislation in great detail.”
“Friend the Minister on any involvement that he may have had in this crucial fact, which is that this Government have now introduced a much more sensible citizenship test. Those examples were taken from the citizenship test that can only be described as a new Labour fantasy about the level of knowledge that we would all have about our country. I will not go on with further examples of questions that I failed—”
“I do not know the correct answer, but I know I got it wrong. I am glad to say that I did know that it is not the Prime Minister who calls a by-election and that we have two Chambers in our national Parliament, so I sailed through some of the questions. Here is another question that I failed miserably to pass: what is the number of children and young people up to the age of 19 in the UK? Again, Mr Speaker, I will help you out, but I will not put you on the spot. I will take interventions from colleagues who know the answer. The four possible answers are 13 million, 14 million, 15 million and 16 million. I failed on that one and I can see that the House has also failed on that measure of citizenship. I was getting rather depressed with my results from the test until I discovered a crucial fact. I compliment my hon.”
“I do not know whether you have ever had the chance to see whether you can pass it, Mr Speaker, but in preparation for this debate, I thought that I would see whether I could do so. I looked at some sample tests, and I regret to inform the House that in the first sample test I failed to reach the necessary 75% required to pass. Let me give some examples of questions that I did not answer successfully. I will not put you on the spot, Mr Speaker, although I know you are an encyclopaedically knowledgeable man. The following question stumped me: in which year did married women get the right to divorce their husband? To help the applicant there are four possible answers, and I am happy to take an intervention from anyone who can answer the question correctly. The options are 1837, 1857, 1875 or 1882.”
“I understand that that is covered by the Secretary of State’s discretion with regards to serving members of the armed forces. The sixth is that they have not spent more than 90 days outside the United Kingdom in the last 12 months of the five-year period. The final requirement is that they have not been in breach of the immigration rules at any stage during the five-year period. Can the Minister confirm that all those aspects of the residency requirements in the 1981 Act will continue to apply, and that the Bill will change only one particular area? Since the 1981 Act, there has been one major modification to what it takes for someone to be naturalised as a citizen of the United Kingdom. I refer, of course, to the UK citizenship test.”
“The first residence requirement in the 1981 Act is that applicants must have been resident in the UK for at least five years, and I am again interested in the Minister clarifying the territorial extent of the United Kingdom in that regard. The second requirement is that they must have been present in the United Kingdom five years before the date of application, which is the provision that we are tackling; the third is that they are free of immigration time restrictions on the date of application; and the fourth is that they are free of immigration restrictions for a period of 12 months before making the application. Will that remain in force when the Bill is passed? The fifth requirement is that the applicants have not spent more than 450 days outside the United Kingdom during the five-year period.”
“Friend the Member for Gainsborough, a situation might arise in which, as we heard, a Jamaican citizen who joined our armed forces abroad and served with great courage with them in other parts of the world decides to settle in Gibraltar, or perhaps closer to Jamaica, in the Cayman Islands. From there, could that person apply for naturalisation as a British citizen, without ever having resided in what we might more naturally think of as the United Kingdom? I particularly want clarification on that point. I understand that the 1981 Act requires people to spend five years resident in the UK, but does the territorial extent in the Bill define the UK more widely? I look forward to hearing from the Minister about that.”
“However, I digress, Mr Speaker. I am trying to find out how my hypothetical examples would be affected by the Bill. My hon. Friend the Member for Woking told us that the provision would probably apply to a citizen of Fiji. Let us imagine that that citizen of Fiji joins Her Majesty’s armed forces, does exemplary service and decides—I do not know what the residence requirements would be—that he or she wants to remain in the British Indian Ocean Territory. Does the territorial extent of the Bill mean that the first date of the five-year period includes residence in one of the territories I have listed? That is my interpretation. In relation to the questions asked by my hon.”
“The question is whether those troops settled in Gibraltar and what the rules were for their naturalisation as British citizens prior to 1981. I can honestly say that I do not have the faintest clue, but that is an interesting historical point. I was evacuated to the British sovereign base of Dhekelia as a child when, as a British citizen, I was growing up in Cyprus. We were living in Nicosia at the time, and we were often under threat of invasion by Turkish forces. I remember being evacuated to Dhekelia, and feeling incredibly safe and secure there, on British sovereign territory. My father, however, had to remain behind in Nicosia to do his job. He put a Union flag on the roof of our house, and we sincerely hoped that the Turkish air force would be able to spot it from the air should it decide to bomb Nicosia.”
“The enthusiasm and the accuracy with which I welcome the Bill are such that I want to hear confirmation from the Minister that any serving member of our armed forces who has settled in any of the territories described in the Bill will still have to go through all the aspects of acquisition of citizenship outlined in the 1981 Act, as well as the additional step—the citizenship test brought in since that time.”
“In bestowing on people the highest gift of citizenship that anyone can have bestowed upon them, which is British citizenship, we want successful individuals to be able to demonstrate that they understand the quintessence of what it means to be British.”
“My hon. Friend gives an excellent example of why he is so well placed to introduce the Bill. It demonstrates that he understands all the things that we as British citizens consider appropriate ways in which to demonstrate that we understand what it means to be British. If Mr Speaker will bear with me one moment, I shall give an example of the sort of question that used to be in the test, which I do not think was appropriate: how many days in any given year must a school legally be required to be open? Suggested answers are 150 days, 170 days, 190 days and 200 days. Again, I will take interventions from any colleagues who feel confident that they know the answer to that question. My hon. Friend is right.”
“Perhaps I am about to introduce a note of dissent into our discussions this morning. I think that when we bestow on people that highest honour of citizenship, British citizenship, we expect those who are so proud to take on our citizenship to understand aspects of our history and culture, and to understand the long and distinguished history of our armed forces, for example. That is why I welcome the fact that the citizenship test that this Government have introduced covers much more of the history, the culture and the spirit of democracy that we have in this country, rather than esoteric questions such as from which two places one can obtain advice if one has a problem at work. The possible answers are the national Advisory, Conciliation and Arbitration Service—”
“The other area of discretion I would like clarified relates to the requirement to be able to communicate to an acceptable degree in English, Welsh or Scottish Gaelic. Someone might have exemplary military service and fulfil all the conditions, and they might be one of the people who will be helped by the Bill, because at the beginning of their process of naturalisation they were on active service overseas, but perhaps their command of English, Welsh or Scottish Gaelic is not quite at an acceptable level. To what extent will the Secretary of State be able to use his or her discretion in those circumstances? It is a question of how discretion will be used to define good character. Similarly, how will discretion be used to define the ability to communicate in English, Welsh or Scottish Gaelic?”
“Would it be the case that, however much time had elapsed and however honourable the person’s life had been since, the fact that they had been dishonourably discharged would be sufficient to count against their application for naturalisation? Will the Minister, when he responds, clarify exactly how the Secretary of State’s discretion might be used in other situations? What other aspects of that discretion might be required? For example, if the person had had a magnificent period of service, left the armed forces, lived in one of the overseas dependencies I listed earlier and was then perhaps convicted of rape or murder, would that be something the Secretary of State would see automatically as a red line? My understanding is that it would, because being of good character is a requirement.”
“That discretion is vital because someone serving in our armed forces might get into trouble with the law, either civilian or military, and might—I am sure that the numbers are very low—have to go through the ignominy of a dishonourable discharge. If a member of the armed forces has been dishonourably discharged, would that almost invariably mean that they would not meet the new criteria for applying for naturalisation? Perhaps the Minister will confirm that from the Dispatch Box. That former member of the armed forces might have lived a blameless life for many years since, their dishonourable discharge having been some time in the past, so to what extent will the Secretary of State’s discretion be used in that example?”
“My understanding is that he would have had to have been resident in the territories outlined in the Bill for a considerable period of time before applying. I will bring to a conclusion this line of discussion, but I am pleased to report to the House—you will forgive me, Mr Speaker—that I was able to get 100% on the new citizenship test. I expect that all the people who go through the process will, as a result of these changes, be able to demonstrate not just the narrow technical points that we define on a page in legislation, such as the number of days, but the wider cultural and historical aspects of what it means to be a British citizen. My next line of questions for the Minister relates to the Secretary of State’s discretion, which I understand is a crucial part of the legislation.”
“I look forward to voting for its Second Reading.”
“I want to see a great deal of progress on this in our society so that we accept that one of the consequences of time served in our armed forces may be post-traumatic stress that requires the Secretary of State to be more understanding in his or her use of discretion as regards this aspect of schedule 1. Those are some of the questions that I look forward to hearing the Minister deal with. I join the whole House in commending my hon. Friend the Member for Woking for having introduced a really exemplary piece of private Members’ legislation. He has identified an issue, worked with the armed forces charities on how we can resolve it for members of our armed forces who are on active service when they want to start their application for citizenship, and realised that the most expeditious way to do so is to introduce this Bill.”
“The Secretary of State might feel that it was appropriate to use discretion in relation to soundness of mind on compassionate grounds, perhaps for someone who has given great service to our armed forces and been helped by the Bill because they were not in the United Kingdom at the beginning of the five-year period because they were serving Her Majesty in our armed forces and might be suffering as a direct result of that active service. To what extent could the discretion be used in schedule 1 to the 1981 Act in relation to the applicant’s soundness of mind? We as a society are making enormous progress on tackling the stigma associated with mental illness. Indeed, the stigma that attaches to a Member of Parliament in relation to their mental capacity is something that this House has discussed at length during this Parliament.”
“No. As a girl, I learned to say, “An t-Eilean Muileach, an t-eilean àghmhor”, which means, “The Isle of Mull is of all isles the fairest”, because my grandmother’s heritage was from the Isle of Mull. However, I think that the discretion will probably be more concerned with the command of English. Will the Secretary of State’s discretion be needed—perhaps the Minister will clarify this—in relation to the characteristics of being of sound mind? That is an extremely important point, because sadly people who have served in our armed forces can suffer from post-traumatic stress disorder.”
“I am delighted that the hon. Lady is alone in the Chamber in being able to answer that question successfully, but did she have to use Google to find out?”
“I thank the Minister for giving way and for beginning to answer some of the questions that I raised about the territorial extent of the Bill. Does he have any plans to amend the territorial extent of the Bill in Committee, in the light of the fact that there seems to be some ambiguity about whether someone may reside in one of those other territories at the point at which they apply for British citizenship?”
“I know that I am being obtuse, but I do not understand what the purpose is, then, of having all the overseas and dependent territories in the territorial extent of the Bill.”
“What I am really trying to clarify is that language acquisition takes place in a specific part of the brain, in the cerebral cortex, that can be damaged later in life, perhaps as the result of a stroke, so someone might have had a good command of English during their period of service but lost that later. Would the Secretary of State have the discretion to waive the requirement in those circumstances?”
“Is the Minister saying that although the pass mark for both tests has remained at 75%, about 75% of people got through on the previous version of the test but the more recent data suggest that the pass rate has dropped to between 60% and 65%?”
“I thank the Minister for his excellent explanation. It answers the question I asked my hon. Friend the Member for Gainsborough (Sir Edward Leigh) about the territorial extent of the 1981 Act. However, it remains for me to ask the Minister whether, because this is a separate piece of legislation, it could have a narrower territorial extent in order to address some of the points I raised about the possibility that someone could not even live in the UK and still acquire British citizenship.”
“A crucial part of our national infrastructure is broadband for the 21st century. Will the Minister join me in congratulating Worcestershire county council on its excellent plans to put 90% of homes and businesses on superfast broadband?”
“During the summer, in one of his many mansions, was the hon. Gentleman able to read the book published by the right hon. Member for Birmingham, Hodge Hill (Mr Byrne)? It states that “From 2004 onwards”, median families “were feeling the strain…people were working just as hard as ever—but were not getting on.” This is not a new issue, and the hon. Gentleman may recall that Treasury officials were examining it during his party’s time in government.”
“In 2011, he said: “The real consequence of this crisis is only now beginning to be felt. They weren’t felt in 2008, they are only now being felt.” What we have seen was the consequence of the previous Government, who left this Government with a note saying, “I’m sorry, Chief Secretary, there is no money left.””
“When I saw the wording of the Opposition’s motion today, I simply could not believe its sheer gall, or the absolute nerve they had in making the points they made. In fact, in honour of Jewish new year tomorrow, I will say that they have incredible chutzpah in putting this motion on the Order Paper today. If there is one sure way in which the Government can reduce the living standards of their citizens, it is by living way beyond their means. A deficit is the spending reductions or tax rises that the Government are not prepared to impose today but willing to pass on to future generations. I do not ask the House to believe me on that point, but to believe the recently retired Lord King, who has made it very clear that today’s living standard squeeze is a consequence of the Labour party’s policies.”
“What would that community feel about a Government who left a deficit of 11.8% of GDP? This Government have reduced it by a third, to 7.4%, although there is still a long way to go. More than any community, that community would understand the importance of living within one’s means. We need to judge the Government by their track record, compared with the previous Government.”
“I agree, so let us turn to the track record of what we have tried to do in government to tackle the very issues raised in today’s debate. We all want to see our constituents prosper and have more money each month to pay their bills. The most important bill that they have to pay each month—on pain of imprisonment if they do not pay it—is their income tax bill. In 2007, people had to start paying income tax once their income rose to just over £5,000. By the end of the next tax year, people will be able to take home £10,000 before they have to pay income tax. That is a halving of the income tax bill for the hard-working person who works full time on the minimum wage. It is also a 20% real-terms reduction in the tax bill of someone on median income. That is the action that a responsible Government can take.”
“Growing private sector employment and record growth in the manufacturing index, which came out yesterday, are what will allow businesses to grow, to grow in confidence and to pay their employees more over time. That is how to tackle the cost of living for our constituents—not by taxing more and borrowing more as the Opposition propose. We must have a credible and responsible Government who keep their own costs down. We must never give the power to tax and spend back to the Labour party, with its damaging track record.”
“We have tried to take steps on the unmanageable expected costs of social care expenses, and we have also made sure that pensioners will benefit each year from an increase in their pensions that at least matches inflation—something that will reassure them over time, compared with the 75p increase that they once received under the previous Government. Those are the steps that we have taken to address the cost of living for our constituents. We also want to invest in skills, apprenticeships and the measures that will help people to move up the ladder of responsibility at work and take on higher-paid jobs over time. Our welfare reforms have made the incentive to work much stronger, so that the number of households with no one in work has dropped to a record low.”
“That is a modest estimate of the increase if the Opposition were to borrow the additional £200 billion estimated by the Institute for Fiscal Studies. The cost of child care is extortionate, and I can speak from personal experience on that, but it went up 77% from 2004 under Labour. The Government have taken many steps to try to increase the availability of free child care for our constituents. For those on median incomes who find that it is not economic to return to work, we will make the cost deductible against tax from 2015.”
“I am sorry, but I have now taken my fair share of interventions. One of the other large bills that people pay is the council tax. Under the previous Government—let us judge them by their deeds—council tax went up by 100%. This Government have managed to hold it broadly steady, which has meant a 9.5% real-terms reduction. Under the previous Government, fuel taxes were increased on 12 separate occasions for my constituents. Indeed, the previous Chancellor legislated for a further 13p in tax increases on fuel, which happily we have been broadly able to avert—an 11% real-terms reduction in that important bill, or a saving of £7 every time people fill up their tanks. Mortgage rates are also at a record low. That important monthly bill would be £1,000 a year more if interest rates were to increase by 1%.”
“As the hon. Gentleman can see, I do not have any remunerated outside interests currently, but I did have one that carried forward after the election. He seems to making the case for separating the Executive completely from Parliament. Is he saying that none of those on the Opposition Front Bench would be prepared to be Ministers after the next election?”
“T8. Setting up the green investment bank was one of the Conservative party manifesto pledges and I was pleased to hear in the reply to the hon. Member for Bethnal Green and Bow (Rushanara Ali) of the progress that is happening. What specific projects has the green investment bank been backing?”
“Can the Prime Minister confirm reports from Jordan that a new treaty has been signed and that this country could have the pleasure of seeing the back of Abu Qatada as soon as this weekend?”
“Endowment policies are also popular products with people with lump sums—such as victims of accidents who receive large payouts—because they have capital protection at maturity and tend to be priced to beat inflation. The market is in natural decline, as endowment policies are no longer very popular and the existing 20 million policies have a finite end date. Nevertheless, there are thought to be seven such small businesses in the UK, employing about 200 people, including in the constituencies of my hon. Friends the Members for City of Chester and for Finchley and Golders Green. These firms worry that they will be put out of business by the change of tax treatment for these policies contained in schedule 9.”